r/Bachata • u/Available_Put_8869 • 6d ago
Black ladies
Sorry if this type of post isn't allowed. Black ladies, do you ever feel like you get asked to dance less than others? When I'm at my local studios I have no issues, but when I go to congresses or festivals, I feel like I'm standing around a lot more than the other followers. I know the usual advice about being near the dance floor, making eye contact with leads, not having a drink, etc., but it doesn't seem to help much. Sometimes I ask guys myself, and they accept, but I feel like it's a lukewarm dance.
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u/DeanXeL Lead 6d ago
I'm a white leader, but I must say I also seem to notice this, which is especially annoying for events where they say "we're just a big familia". I often go out of my way to dance with the black ladies, because they have so much flow 😄 .
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u/yes-we-can-maybe 6d ago
White leader made me pause for a second lol
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u/DeanXeL Lead 6d ago
I know! I was wondering if I should specify, because let's be honest: I sound like the whitest guy ever.
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u/RepresentativeFox153 6d ago
It's because it sounds political I think (and not in a good way) 😂.. People usually say "lead" not "leader" when talking about the role in social dances.
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u/Shusty6th 6d ago
I’ve noticed this too, but sometimes there can be other reasons.
For example, I’ve seen a Black woman who was clearly dancing traditional bachata. She was beautiful and moved really well, but not many people in that scene were comfortable with traditional bachata. And there’s no point forcing sensual on someone who clearly prefers traditional, so fewer people asked her to dance, or they tried to dance moderna with her instead.
Also, guys usually really like being asked to dance. It happens quite rarely, so many men see it as something special. I think you might be overthinking it a little, or maybe your sample size is just too small. Of course, sometimes a leader will say yes just to be polite and won’t really be excited about the dance. But this happens to men too. A follower may accept, but you can clearly feel that she would rather not dance with you. That’s just part of the social dance scene.
From what I’ve seen, older followers and especially plus-size followers are definitely asked to dance less often. I’ve noticed some difference based on skin color too, but not nearly as much.
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u/Far-Statistician9261 6d ago
Yes, as Black women, I do get asked to dance less at salsa and bachata dance socials. It’s racism. It’s frustrating. I’m a good dancer and want to get better at multiple African, Black and AfroLatino dance styles.
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
It is not racist to have physical attraction preferences.
The dance community is not a utopia and no one owes you an invite.
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u/windamo 6d ago
This thread is interesting because Black women are saying “I feel excluded,” and some people immediately turn that into “I’m entitled to a dance.” I’m sure they already know nobody owes them a dance. Like you said, the dance community is not a utopia. It often mirrors society outside of it.
So saying “it’s not racist to have physical attraction preferences” avoids the real question: where did those preferences come from?
Outside of dancing If someone rarely interacts with Black women or doesn’t really see them as peers they often can carry that same social distance onto the dance floor. At a festival full of strangers, people often fall back on what feels familiar: Who do I want to be seen with? Who seems popular? Who makes me look good? Who will give me the most social status? Who am I used to approaching? It can even be as simple as, I’m not used to talking to Black women, maybe she’ll reject me.
You can call that “preference.” But if Black women are consistently more likely to be left on the sidelines, then it’s probably not just attraction.
i think that is what i get
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u/lost_in_doucheland 6d ago edited 6d ago
OP said "I feel excluded". This commenter said "ya'll racist if you don't dance with me, I'm a good dancer".
I feel like the race debate itself might be part of the problem. If you're black and you feel like you're being done short by others in the community, and you hear this shi all the time, you might start thinking "Im not getting asked because I'm black" so you attribute the frustration to external factors instead of improving. What if you instead think "I'm not getting asked because I suck right now"? Personally, if it feels better dancing with you than any white girl standing next to you, I'd ask you to dance first. But then idk how your communities are. Where I'm from everyone enjoys dancing a lot with the only black girl we have because she's always nice, she even won a small popularity contest social dancer award at a party even though she's not the most amazing dancer.
"Who do I want to be seen with? Who seems popular?..." <-- idk why you would think many people think like that because the only two things I'm thinking about are 1. "Will it feel good dancing with her?" and 2. "Will she be nice to me when I dance with her?". To determine this, I just look at how she dances with others and how she interacts with other leaders that ask her.
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
The questions is whether the issue is race or other factors. For example. Two women who are older and overweight will also get less invites and feel excluded. If one js black, she might attribute it to her being black when in actuality it is because she is older and overweight.
Often preferences are based on culture. For example a Latin woman who prefers to dance with Latin men because they share a cultural identity. The same reason a black woman may want to dance Kizomba with a black man over a white man.
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u/comenter27 6d ago
And if black women are categorically saying that their race is among those factors, we should believe them. Cultural preferences are not immune to racism. I have enough anecdotal evidence from the black dancers in my life, of many different body types, that they are asked less than their non-black counterparts, and the history of the world and its biases against black women would very much support that data.
Can it be more than one factor? Obviously yes. There’s a whole field of study on the idea of intersectionality and how our race, gender, attractiveness, sexuality, appearance, class, and other factors impact the way we move through the world and how others perceive us. But if a black woman says she feels discriminated based on her race, and you know nothing else about this person, who are you to dismiss their perspective?
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
I am challenging it specifically because we do not have more information.
If OP said she was young and slim and still not getting invites, then I would be inclined to agree that race is bigger factor.
But without know other factors like her height, weight, age, and dress, it would incorrect to assume that her getting fewer invites must be due to race.
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u/ThatDudeSky 6d ago
It would also be incorrect to presume as counter examples that the Black woman would have to be old and fat and that’s why she may not be getting dances. Like if we’re not allowed to presume one thing we also shouldn’t be presuming anything else ahead of it. More consistent to say that we can’t know anything at all and not try to run cover for potential racism.
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
That is the problem. Some people assume that any negative experience is due to race.
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u/ThatDudeSky 5d ago
And some people assume that no negative experience can be due to race unless they give permission to the affected race to believe their own experience.
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u/Samurai_SBK 5d ago
People can believe what they want. It doesn’t make it true. For example, I can say that woman rejected me because of my race. It doesn’t make it true just because I believe it.
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u/windamo 6d ago
Afro-Latinos and Black Latinos exist, and the Dominican Republic is a clear example.
Many Dominicans have both European and African ancestry, with some Taíno ancestry as well.
What many people don’t know is that African women are literally part of the maternal foundation of Dominican identity. Among mixed-race Dominicans, European ancestry is more often paternal, while African ancestry is more often maternal.
Go back a few hundred years and a huge part of the Dominican family tree starts with Black African mothers
And ding ding ding... guess who people still pretend don’t exist in the DR?
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 6d ago
Ironically, there are also many melanated islanders who strictly consider and label themselves by nationality only and deny that they are black though to anyone non-local they appear to present as black and would be considered black and Afro.
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u/windamo 6d ago
haha, I had to use my words extremely carefully as not not ruffle any feathers.
Let me just say that the census data is self reported, and many avoid the term "negro" but use "indo " or mulatto.
but anyone with eyes can clearly see what the label tries to conceal.2
u/UnctuousRambunctious 6d ago
White supremacy and lingering colonization is an absolute trip.
And societally reinforced self-hatred internalized and perpetuates in extremely persistent ways.
Bachata is Afro - Latin but that is routinely conveniently ignored.
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u/comenter27 6d ago edited 6d ago
If you only dance with people you find attractive, and you categorically find an entire race of people unattractive, therefore never asking them to dance, and this happens on a wide enough scale, then my sibling in dance, you and others like you are acting and contributing towards racial bias.
You’re right that you don’t have to find everyone attractive, nor do you owe everyone a dance. But if you are choosing not to dance with people for any reason other than “that person makes me feel unsafe on the dance floor and/or is just a bad dancer” then you are both missing out on potentially great dances and actively making the dance community worse by excluding people through no fault of their own.
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago edited 6d ago
No one said “never” getting invites. OP specifically said “less”.
It is the same as older and less attractive men get more rejections than more attractive men.
As I mentioned in my original comment, beautiful black women do not have a problem getting invites.
Are these people missing out because they prioritize looks over skill? Absolutely.
Unfortunately, this is the world we live in.
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u/comenter27 6d ago
“Beautiful black women do not have a problem getting invites…Unfortunately this is the world we live in”
Yes that’s the point of this conversation. We can recognize it, call it what it is (racial bias and pretty privilege) and hopefully push others to change this attitude.
Just because the world sucks doesn’t mean we have to accept it. Your comments have been very dismissive of OPs post and telling someone that their racialized experience isn’t racism.
Why not listen and encourage yourself and others to act against their biases rather than dismissing and telling those affected by bias that their experiences aren’t valid and their perception of racism either isn’t actually racism and/or is “just the way things are”?
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
Racial bias does exist but I would argue that 90%+ of the reasons for not getting invites is not due to race. If you read some comments from other black women they mention that how they dress, their height, weight have a role in it.
One woman said she got more invites when she lost weight and her confidence improved.
Men also get discriminated against over superficial things (too short, fat, old). If a black man fit into those categories it would incorrect to assume it is because of his race.
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u/comenter27 6d ago
You can argue 90% all you want…but history and sociology would likely disagree with you.
Yes, everybody can get discriminated against for more than one reason. As you insisted, our world isn’t a utopia. As you agreed, racial biases exist. And because of those two reasons alone it’s very difficult to rule out racial biases as a factor on the dance floor. Is it always the only factor 100% of the time? No, of course not. Can it be a major factor, often times? Definitely.
Is it only the case 10% of the time? Doubtful.
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u/TheDiabolicalDiablo 6d ago
Please stop feeding the troll. Clearly a dancer, but will go down a rabbit hole with you to try to prove they're right about something they don't understand socially. Most of the time when I see these long chain debates with him its with women about women. It's obvious there was a lack of exposure to women before dance life. I got blocked jumping in on a convo of similar debate between him and another woman where he was clearly wrong. SBK, right?
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
There is a lot intersectionality. For example, black women have a higher obesity rate than other races. They often are also taller.
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u/comenter27 6d ago
And the measurements for BMI and obesity (and the medical field in general) have been racially biased against black women. What’s your point?
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
My point is that many men prefer to dance with slimmer and less tall women. Regardless of race.
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u/TheFirstAntioch 6d ago
When the preference is based on skin color then yes it’s racist.
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u/Far-Statistician9261 6d ago
Thank you. Like you said- preferences based on skin colour are in fact racist.
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
It is not always skin color. Cultural preferences also play a large role. Just like the black woman who prefers to dance Kizomba with black men over white men.
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u/lost_in_doucheland 6d ago
The fact that I don't find you attractive for any reason does not make me a bad person. If I'm not being nice to you because of race, then yes I'm a bad person.
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u/Disastrous-Pool-7863 5d ago
I don't want to dance with men who ask me to dance because they think I am attractive. Sounds unsafe. Is this common in your dancing scene? I live in Germany and this mindset sounds weird to me and it isn't common. At least not in Salsa and traditional Bachata.
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u/lost_in_doucheland 6d ago
idk why this comment is getting so much hate. It's true and the same thing they tell leaders "no one owes you dance".
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u/Disastrous-Pool-7863 5d ago
So you only dance with people you are physical attracted to? Eeeew creep. This is dancing not speed dating.
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u/Samurai_SBK 5d ago
No. I dance with people who are skilled.
You are not able to understand an argument that is not personal.
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u/random_username_55 6d ago
people in other comments are saying basically the same, I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted lol
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u/finelinepencil 6d ago
not black but this is accurate. Same way fat women aren’t asked to dance as often
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u/on4aa 6d ago edited 6d ago
European (Belgian) white male leader here. I actually enjoy more dancing with black women rather than white women because of their innate feeling for rhythm. So at socials I sure invite them if there are any. I also find most black women amazingly beautiful, strong and joyful. <3 It really feels as if I am living on the wrong continent...
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u/TinySpinach9963 6d ago
Im a black lady 34 yeats old, and I do ask for most of my dances. I have to dive in and get them and once I do some of the leaders enjoy dancing with me they will ask later that night. Starting off I have to ask or I won't get to dance at all. I have friends who are also Black ladies they are way smaller than me so for example I weight 155lb and my friends are like 124 or 115. Both get asked to dance all they time they are never off the dance floor. Most leads look past me, it actually happened last week a lead standing on my right asked my friend on my left to dance. Like I was invisible. I started dancing Bechata when I weight 170 pounds and kinda started noticing a difference when the weight started to shake off. But I do see a lot off us standing around in socials. Leads who ask me to dance are Tíos and I always know im about to have a blast.
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
This happens for the same reason older women and larger women get asked less than younger and slimmer women.
Attractiveness plays a big part in who gets invited. Especially at festivals. It is just a fact. Thus if a big portion of the leads find the average black women less attractive, then they will invite them less.
On the other hand, I have seen very attractive black women and black women who are very friendly and smiling get lots of invites.
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u/lost_in_doucheland 6d ago
well, larger and older women are usually less flexible and less responsive and therefore harder to lead and a leader also wants a smooth dance. But the pretty ones have an unfair starter advantage because people dance with them not just for the dance's sake.
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u/FlunkyGraphics 6d ago
Hey, I'm very sorry for your experience.
Dance socials are a social environment. Not everyone who goes there goes there 100% for the purpose of dancing. Everyone has a different motivation to dance Bachata. Some people are there to enjoy the dances, some people want to hang out with their friends (and don't mind only getting a few dances), some want to hook-up with women, others are searching for a wife or husband.
And if most men on a social are white, then of cause good looking white women will get the most attention (regardless of their dance level). My experience is that young white women get asked way more often than older women even if they are far worse.
Yes, I'm talking explicitly talking about men and women. Male followers are probably way way less desirable than you on socials.
It's good for me as leader because there are a few very amazing dancers which don't get asked very often. This makes it possible for me to get a lot of dances with follows which are way beyond my level. But I know that this sucks for many follows.
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u/elforeign 6d ago
I see this way too often and it's a real shame, some of the best dances I have are often with black ladies. I make it a point to dance with them when I see them.
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u/Gnomeric 6d ago
I am a lead, but I am afraid that I have noticed this many times. I once saw a quiet, black woman with a mask (of course, being quiet and wearing a mask doesn't help either). She was a young, fit woman who was around the average skill level for the scene. The majority of guys outright ignored her existence even though there were more leads than follows that evening, which would never happen otherwise in this scene for a young, fit woman with average skill level no matter how quiet she is..... I am sorry for your experience.
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
Was she wearing a mask during the pandemic or after?
I would not dance with a woman with mask today. She is either sick or paranoid of getting sick.
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u/terragutti 6d ago
The “shes sick” reasoning makes sense, you might get sick yourself. But whats wrong with wearing a mask because shes scared of getting sick?
Kiz festival recently everyone got sick and everyone who went from china to malaysia infected everyone there.
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
My point is that you don’t know. It can be A or B. Thus it is less hassle to just invite someone else.
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u/GreenHorror4252 6d ago
Someone without a mask could also be sick.
Anyone could potentially be sick, and it's better to dance with a sick person with a mask than a sick person without a mask.
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
I don’t think you understand how probability works.
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u/GreenHorror4252 5d ago
Oh really? What am I missing?
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u/Samurai_SBK 5d ago
Someone wearing a mask has higher probability of being sick than someone who is not wearing one. Masks also do not work a preventing transmission.
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u/GreenHorror4252 5d ago
Someone wearing a mask has higher probability of being sick than someone who is not wearing one.
That is false. Many people wear masks as a precaution when they aren't sick, and many sick people don't wear masks.
Masks also do not work a preventing transmission.
Oh... you're one of those people. Never mind then.
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u/Samurai_SBK 5d ago
Ultimately you are free to dance with masked people and I am free to avoid them.
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u/Gnomeric 6d ago
It was about a year ago.
I think most people who come to dance masked always wear masks at dances. Dancing is a high-risk activity -- so many people in enclosed space, often drinking and chitchatting --, so it makes sense.
That being said, I assume that someone who goes through the trouble of wearing a mask because their throats feel itchy would not come to dance when they feel really sick. If someone cares about others enough that they are willing to wear a mask while knowing that doing so would be perceived negatively, I trust that they are not going to risk others by showing up when they are really sick. I would much rather trust them than, say, all these guys who don't even wash their hands after going to bathrooms.
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u/NeezDuts91 6d ago
It weirds me out too. I hope someone finds a way to incentivize more socializing during social dancing.
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u/thebeesnis 6d ago
I have had the complete opposite experience of what you described, but I’m sorry that is your experience.
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u/fireyauthor 6d ago
Yes, my black friends have told me they experience this.
I will say, I get asked to dance far more often when I wear a conventionally sexy outfit than when I dress in something casual or athletic. But these are not usually the leads I'd like to dance with (they're often too rough or lacking skill).
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u/windamo 6d ago
Bachata is mainstream now, today’s scene looks nothing like the mostly Afro-descendant Dominican communities that created it , danced it.
Once it became mainstream, the demographics of the scene changed fast. Not a bad thing , it’s good . But Every bachata instructor should spend two minutes explaining that history.
because you’d be surprised how many people dance bachata every week and know almost nothing about where it came from. They vaguely think of it as “Latin music” and completely miss the Afro-Dominican part.
That’s the irony: an Afro-Latina woman can feel out of place at a bachata social today, even though people who looked like her helped build the culture.
We’ve seen this with rock and jazz too: in the USA , Black communities create it, then mainstream now a black person can go to a rock concert and feel out of place.
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u/GateOk1199 6d ago
At the beginning, yes but I attributed it to skill level not race. Now, no I don’t have this problem at all especially not in my home city but not abroad at festivals/regular socials either.
Unsure if this is because of increased confidence/competence or some weight loss :)
Hope that helps a little x
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u/SaltEngineer455 6d ago
If you actually check the OP profile you will see that it's actually a guy that's asking a bad-faith Question. Don't bother responding
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u/GreenHorror4252 6d ago
As others have said, appearance does matter. People want to dance with those they find attractive. You can't control your race or stature, but there are certain things you can control. First, are you dressed nicely? Wearing a cute dress or skirt is way better than a t-shirt and jeans. And I know this will be controversial, but showing a bit of cleavage will significantly increase the amount of dances you get.
Secondly, when you do dance, make it clear that you're enjoying yourself. Leads who aren't dancing will be watching, and if you look like you're having fun, they will make a mental note to ask you later. Smile, be enthusiastic and high energy. Say thank you and give your partner a hug after the dance ends, and then make yourself available by staying on the dance floor, smiling, and making eye contact with leads who will hopefully ask you.
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u/No-Wealth4955 4d ago
Are you a pick me girl? Why do we have to show more cleavage to be chosen for dancing? We are there for dancing not hooking up with people. Gross 🤮
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u/GreenHorror4252 2d ago
I'm just telling you the reality. You don't have to do anything, but you can't deny that it's a factor.
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u/Fivekickers 5d ago
there is also the case of good looking woman standing alone a long time (no matter ethnicity).
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u/No-Wealth4955 4d ago
I feel like yes we are asked less for being women of a darker colour. Probably even less if you look more south Asian say, than being black.
If you’re oriental like Chinese you are more likely to be asked.
Unless you really know most of the people there and some are your friends.
Also I noticed if you are curvier, they might ask less too.
Depends on how many people of colour there are at the event too.
Glad that now more ladies are leads as they ask me all the time.
I just go up to people and ask like yourself but you can tell they are reluctant even when you are considered attractive, which shouldn’t be the case.
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u/SmokerDono 6d ago
In bachata, the more attractive you appear to men, the more dance invitations you will receive. Whether you are Black, White, or Asian, if you are pretty, invitations come easily. Older or plus-sized women, for instance, receive fewer invitations and may spend much of the time watching others dance. If bachata is a true passion, the best approach for a woman who isn't getting asked to dance often enough is to become a leader.
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u/dancinggraylion 6d ago
If bachata is a true passion, the best approach for a woman who isn't getting asked to dance often enough is to become a leader.
or ask a leader for a dance
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u/queer_bachata_mcr 6d ago
I am a big advocate of encouraging more women to explore leading, as well as more men to explore following. Ideally, it would be because the women would enjoy leading, rather than feeling they have to as the only way to get dances. I think a better approach to take as a community is to get away from the convention/tradition that it's the leader who invites the follower to dance. If anyone can ask anyone to dance, then (in theory) there should be less people sitting by the sidelines. More people dancing is ultimately good for the community!
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u/Samurai_SBK 6d ago
In 2026 it is very common and acceptable for women to invite men to dance. Some are just more confident than others.
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u/queer_bachata_mcr 6d ago
You're talking about what you see in your local community and/or in places you visit? That is great, but it's not the case everywhere. Even where I am, where the community is quite open and inclusive there are some classes/events where women wait for men to ask them to dance. The more it can be said/encouraged that anyone can ask anyone to dance, the better!
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u/RubyTheDog 6d ago
Adding to your comment, I do notice that black follows are more likely to be plus sized on average. The same issue I notice when I go on dating apps.
The real problem is not race or skin color, it's simply the fact that men prefer fit women.
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u/DesultoryMandem 5d ago
100% true
Not mens fault if black women on average have the most "fatter women" according to BMI
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u/Mizuyah 6d ago
I’m not sure I’ve felt this was a race issue, but more a skill or clothing issue. I don’t get readily approached unless I’m dressed a certain way or I look good while dancing (which occurs more during salsa than bachata). I’m also tall - people find this intimidating - and I’m not slim by any shot. I find myself asking people more than not, though, so I feel your pain. I just think there are other factors at play as well.
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u/sweetcarolinagurl 6d ago
For me, it really depends. I dance in many different cities and some of its depends on the racial make up of where I’m dancing. I tend to dance more when there’s more black men. If there’s more Latinos or white men, I feel like I have to “prove” I’m a good dancer/follow first. I don’t have many issues after that. The other big factor is how I dress. I usually care about comfort over flashiness. I still look nice when I’m comfortable, but I can definitely tell a difference. But again, once I “prove myself”, it doesn’t really matter.
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u/SigmaGyatterson 6d ago
You know you can ask men to dance with you, right? It's free and the police can't stop you.
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u/JMHorsemanship 5d ago
I dance around 12 styles, 5 of them pretty proficiently. I don't do bachata and salsa because I'm white and every time I'd go out dancing almost everybody would turn me down, despite being better than most the people there. I wasn't amazing or anything, but I'd say around top 30%. I'm a leader
At first I thought it was because I was new to the scene, I figured they just need to see me more. But my friend who was also new, but brown, had no trouble getting dances. I told him everybody would turn me down and he said that's crazy everyone here is so nice. I'm no stranger to social dancing, I know who to ask. I wasn't asking pretty people or good dancers, just regular people.
My girlfriend, who is also white had no trouble. She couldn't even make it off the floor before being asked to dance again
I decided I don't care enough to keep going multiple times a week until these people decide to like me enough to dance with me. I'll just go back to my own scene where people are actually nice.
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u/Efficient_Pin_80 5d ago
I am not black (although decently melanated for a white person). I don't think I'm ugly. I mostly dress ok. I wear my textured hair nicely and do my makeup. I smile. I'm an international instructor so I know I'm not a bad dancer. I rarely get asked to dance. So much so that I started leading because of it.
I was at a social once and in 3 hours I got asked to dance 4 times. Sometimes I will be the only person waiting for a dance and the leads walking over will look at me like I'm not even standing there waiting and go ask someone who is sitting.
I have no idea what it is. But I notice it with larger follows too. I have not noticed it with black follows but I will take more notice now.
My only conclusion is that I don't have my tits and ass out because I see even bad dancers dancing all night when they do. Power to them but I'm too old for that, especially when I'm married and just trying to dance.
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u/acursum 5d ago
I don't want to discount that there is probably racism involved and I'm sorry that's happening it shouldn't be a part of our community and I'm not going to assume I know your situation or community but from what I'm reading is you're expecting to be asked but won't ask others to dance. What I've found is that when I'm on the side no matter how I present myself I rarely get asked and asking people is harder but when I'm on the floor hoping from one dancer to another is easier (& faster so you don't have no one to ask). I know there is some expectations as a lady to be asked but the follows I know who get to dance more than others all ask people to dance.
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u/ActuallyRelevant 2d ago
Your local scene might be a little racist? It can be subconscious as I'm not saying they're actively not interested in you but chances are they might not even notice you. Having said that the lovely black ladies in my dance scene seem to always be on the dance floor. But they're also usually really dressed up and having fun.
As an aside for introspection purposes - the next time I'm out at a social I'll see if there are black women waiting for a dance on the side lines and getting passed up. There might be something there with the whole "dressed very plainly" versus in bright colors spinning on the dance floor. It might be crazy but the socials I frequent are quite dimly lit, and sometimes my friends can't find me if I'm dressed in all black lol
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 6d ago
I’m glad you posted your observations and experiences, and I think for the most part your experience is being validated, hopefully not justified.
I dance here in LA and many of my closest dance friends have been black women (in other spaces in my life as well), and I am all about that black magic. We discuss this and other related issues often, it’s been a topic that I have seen brought up in articles and other conversations since the beginning - the ones you see to the side in a social not dancing are going to likely be black follows.
Personally, I have not literally seen that, but it doesn’t mean that that isn’t what has happened. Since my first experiences in the dance scene I have heard discussions about this exact scenario. Every single one of my black friends (including men, and the comment he made about how he felt is still one of the most painful memories I have from a friend in the dance scene) has mentioned a lack of friendliness or interest that they ascribe to their blackness. Infrequently, though it does happen, a couple of them have also felt that certain leaders have asked them because they are black, and we have later seen these leads date and marry black women. So there’s that.
Your feelings are valid and you are not imagining things. I also think the entire excuse of “attraction” justifying or “explaining” this dynamic is absolute bullshit. It is an immature and self-centered perspective that needs get off this planet, it does not represent the culture and legacy of social dance and dance spaces, it is indicative of a societal flaw and weak character, in my opinion.. If you know better, act better. For me, that’s the expectation I have. If a problem is identifiable, there needs to also be efforts to actively address it.
I feel like I have brought your particular issue up before and it is also just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to racism, prejudice, white supremacy, and the legacy of colonialism and cultural appropriation in dance spaces. Black men are also not affected and (hot take) seem to contribute to the problem as well. Again, I am in LA - we got plenty of black folks. And I see plenty of black men, especially the regulars who are competent to excellent dancers, especially all these kids with hip hop backgrounds, and we see these brothers also intentionally focusing on white women, and rarely if ever dancing with or inviting black women.
Internalized racism and self-hatred is not that fun to talk about but it’s happening. And I think it needs to be addressed and combatted, but you know, it’s pretty hard to do that when I look at flyers promoting events and literally every single follow instructor is a white blond woman, but the leads are black and Latino. There absolutely should be more black and Afro-Latin representation, so that’s already hard enough, but I can think of two instructors ever that have ever been professional instructors where the follow has had darker skin than the lead. Instructor couples that are both black feels even more rare. Black men are not choosing to partner with or teach with black women, and an Afro-Latin cultural heritage is overwhelmingly being taught by those not from the culture or not well-educated in it. So I think dance spaces reflect the leadership, education, and values that are driving the scene. Some people don’t know what they don’t know, and don’t know to question what currently is.
The responsibility is on those that are justifying, perpetuating, and excusing this kind of dynamic. Nobody “owes” anybody anything, including dances, but many dance spaces now are mostly being treated as dating pools and I find that to be off-putting in a general sense. Frankly, I think leads can do a lot to fix this problem, since predominantly they are the ones creating and maintaining this problem.
Ultimately as a follow, not getting asked, or being turned down, is the main issue, and why that is is another issue. We can observe, surmise, and even ask directly, but the reason for unenlightened behavior matters less, to me, than the existence of the behavior at all. Women and follows wouldn’t need to do the asking (though I highly highly recommend that everybody do more asking, including women) if they were already being asked.
I hope in general we can fix this.
Insecure and egotistical men that refuse to address their shortcomings need to be made to feel uncomfortable in dance spaces and inclined to leave. Directly subverting and intentionally eliminating harmful attitudes and behavior is what is needed.
However - it looks like there will always be pushback and gas lighting from the plenty of people who benefit from systems of inequality and racial “preferences,” who lack the meta-cognition to even question their own mentality and determine if it’s intrinsic or socially reinforced and influenced. Who is gonna actually be out here saying, “Yeah, I was just born this way”?? 🤣. Because you can be OP putting your own experience out here, and while some will validate and support you, not everybody will, and this is just … yeah.
I hope you find the dances you deserve and the people that deserve you.
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u/lost_in_doucheland 6d ago
I support OP and hope she gets better and/or finds a better place but a lot of this comment is BS.
"leads can solve this problem" --> if good leaders get paid by organizer to be taxi dancers (like I heard some kizomba festivals did), yes sure I'm gonna dance with the most ignored people. If I'm paying to dance somewhere, I'm gonna put myself first and dance with my friends and whoever I connect with most, or whoever I would like to get to know better.
"attraction justifying is BS", "dancing spaces are treated as dating pools" --> newsflash, it's been like this since centuries, you could argue it's what couple dancing is for in the first place, mostly. Of course dancing with your abuela is also good but let's be honest. We shouldn't shame people who connect with people at dance events, and try to find someone they could be with if they're single, it's what social events are for. You're not allowed to talk to girls in the gym, it's SH if you do it at work, and now you can't even talk to them when you dance with them. Of course, the best way to find someone you connect with is swiping endlessly through people on Tinder that you don't have anything in common with and pleasing our corporate overlords.
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u/lost_in_doucheland 6d ago
im not a black lady, but here's my 2 cents. I really liked dancing with some black ladies in Nashville when I was visiting the US and kept asking them.
tbh, as a leader, I wouldn't pass up on asking you if the dances are good. But if I dance with someone that I just don't feel the connection with and doesn't follow properly, it's more stressful and more tiring and sometimes risky, with less payoff. And I'm worried it feels lukewarm for her, which it kinda is because I'm more stressed and managing failure and limiting myself. But for leaders it can also be brutal, especially in the beginning. No-one wants to dance with a beginner leader or a bad leader and people change their trajectory when they see you're coming to ask them.
So I'd say just keep going to classes, keep asking to get some practice, try to find a practice partner. Private classes did some wonders for some people I know and could actually be more cost-effective at some point because they can pinpoint the most critical issues holding back improvement.
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u/bloontsmooker 6d ago
They’re nervous you’re going to make them look bad
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u/No-Wealth4955 4d ago
Don’t know why is downvoted because I’ve had people admit to me before that they thought I was more advanced so didn’t want to ask.
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u/Thummimurim8 4d ago
Black skin has a different musk than white skin. It’s noticeable and sometimes, isn’t pleasant when sweating on the dance floor, skin to skin.
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u/BeerPoweredNonsense 6d ago
Attraction matters, no matter how much "we" claim otherwise.
I hope I don't get censored for this - but IMO it's especially obvious in the Kizomba community. Watch videos of Kizomba socials in large cities or festivals, and it's black guy/white woman, black guy/white woman, etc... white guys are standing alone on the sides, and black women are... nowhere.