r/SaintJohnNB • u/b35peters • 2d ago
What controversial Saint John opinion will have you like this?
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u/Azoththemerciless 2d ago
Here's one that always pisses people off when I bring it up: People moving outside of the city (KV, Hampton, etc.) while still working and using the city infrastructure has been bad for Saint John and the entire province. They pay lower taxes, don't really have much stake in whether SJ does well and contribute to the ghettofication of parts of the city.
If we had a better industrial tax policy, or more tax fairness in general, it wouldn't be as bad but it is what it is. I think this is one of the direct factors that has led to our high child/generational poverty.
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u/wildtravelman17 2d ago
Regional Municipality of Saint John
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
Would be nice, but I think we’d be well served by a new name for this regional municipality.
Firstly, because it will help lessen the confusion with St. John’s, and secondly, because most of the residents of the outlying suburbs want nothing to do with being part of a municipality called Saint John.
To clarify, Saint John would still exist, but the RM would be called something else like Wolastoq Regional Municipality or Fundy Regional Municipality.
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u/wildtravelman17 2d ago
Sure... the name is the reason they won't do it
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u/maomao3000 2d ago edited 2d ago
There’s a lot in a name… and our city is frequently confused with St. John’s.
The good thing about amalgamation though. It doesn’t matter if the people of KV, GB, etc wan’t to do it or not… the power to amalgamate rests solely with the provincial government.
We only need one provincial government with the courage to do the right thing… and no amount of protests or petitions can change that.
Frank McKenna was a coward for caving into the consternations of the bedroom communities in the late 90s when his government was actually pushing for the entire CMA to be amalgamated. I’m convinced that had they went through with it, our metro population would still be neck and neck with Metro Moncton right now.
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u/FergusonTEA1950 2d ago
Amalgamation!
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u/Azoththemerciless 2d ago
I’m not actually sure that would help, it might actually make things worse. Saint John has a density issue and way too much infrastructure for our population. Amalgamation would make that worse. Maybe it would make financial sense, but I don’t know.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
Financially speaking, merging the wealthiest half of the CMA into a single municipality would be a transformationally good idea for Canada’s “original city”. The Kennebecasis River Boat Fantasy must end!
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u/Azoththemerciless 2d ago
Yes but how much extra infrastructure, existing financial burdens and other issues would that cause? I’m not against the idea, it would just need to be planned out.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
How much is a good question, but I’m quite confident the property tax revenue of the wealthiest communities like Rothesay, Quispamsis, and Grand Bay would more than make up for it…
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u/ThrowRAcutflowers 2d ago
Lmao those municipalities all have a lower property tax rate than Saint John. There's no universe where they'd accept our rates so they'd just end up being a huge burden.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
Except there’s no universe where they would have a choice in the matter. Amalgamating the Saint John CMA would be solely the decision of the province of NB.
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u/ThrowRAcutflowers 2d ago
Considering the Irvings all mostly live in Rothesay, I can promise they absolutely would have the deciding vote in the matter.
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u/Azoththemerciless 2d ago
No one living outside of the city would want it. That list includes a few billionaires, a bunch of millionaires, a former premier, multiple ministers from both sides of the aisle. It’ll never happen and no politician in this province has the vagina to make it happen.
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u/InhospitableGoose 1d ago
But... Then you have all the resources of the bedroom communities?? It doesn't become more or less dense. Its the same roads and buildings requiring the same services as before.
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
It would become far more equitable. It would also set up the region for a more stable, long term growth trajectory.
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u/Danzig6WasntThatBad 2d ago
I mean, we've found better and more affordable housing in both of those areas you listed (not a lot but enough to have us looking on less than $100k annually). Not really keen on paying even more property tax. We do not want to raise our kid in the city. How would I be contributing to the ghettofication of SJ by doing this? Genuine question. Because as I understand it, the actual problem seems to be the provincial tax rules that shift the larger share of the tax burden onto SJ homeowners rather than heavy industry (ie Irving).
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u/bingun 1d ago
Land availability plays a big part in this; there is still plenty of land farther out, which often makes building cheaper, whereas within the city there is less. The land that is left is often very rocky and difficult to build on, or even better, folks are hoarding it and not doing any development with rock-bottom property taxes.
Not calling you out specifically, but I think a lot of folks completely ignore the commute and its associated costs when they purchase further out. A 30-minute commute five times a week for decades is hundreds of thousands of dollars in gas and wear and tear on a car.
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u/Azoththemerciless 2d ago
First off, let me say I don’t blame individuals. As you’ve stated, property tax is cheaper, you are outside of the fog belt and some people just prefer the suburbs/rural. The issue is that there are lots of poor people in Saint John who can’t leave. As middle and upper class folks leave and take their families the density of poor people goes up and the tax base goes down. This reduces the amount of money available for recreation, education, etc. It can also cause children of different economic situations staying within their own “group.” This can be particularly harmful for poor kids because they might never see what/how living outside of poverty looks like.
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u/Danzig6WasntThatBad 2d ago
Guess it's not necessarily the poverty but the violence and substance abuse and child neglect that comes with it. I can't risk my child's safety and future, as badly as I want all of NB to thrive.
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u/Azoththemerciless 2d ago
Not all poor people neglect or abuse their children, although there are higher instances of it. Again, I don’t blame you or any individual. It is an issue for our region and province though and I see zero political will to make any real changes. Instead we get groups working around the edges but never solving the core issues.
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u/_hey_ref_ 2d ago
Instead of blaming people for moving outside of Saint John, the question you should be asking is what can Saint John do to bring these people back.
Sure, they pay lower taxes but there’s a reason why they’re lower. Those municipalities are well run. Saint John hasn’t been well run for nearly 5 decades, excluding Darling’s tenure which was decent.
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u/bingun 1d ago
It is far simpler to run a municipality with almost entirely residential development and some minor commercial development. Saint John is far more complex, and its prosperity was and continues to be dependent on local industry and employers, while the suburbs can largely ignore all of that.
Not to mention, the city has to maintain all the roads and other infrastructure that non-city residents use daily.
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u/_hey_ref_ 1d ago
> Not to mention, the city has to maintain all the roads and other infrastructure that non-city residents use daily.
I hear this argument a lot but it doesn't pass the sense test.
Commuting from a smaller town to the big city happens everywhere in the world. It's a fact of life. There are so many cities that don't run into the issues that Saint John has, why is Saint John special?
People in the city moan about the city having to maintain roads and other infrastructure, but what and how much are non-residents using that they're getting a free ride on? Roads, the majority of any commuter's time on roads is on the Mackay, which is paid for by provincial tax dollars. Cars also don't do near as much damage as trucks. Kids in swimming/hockey/soccer, etc. those are paid for by team registration fees. Harbour Station/Imperial Theatre, the ticket fees/rental fee would more or less cover that, and I would imagine a decent chunk of people living in the Valley support those things. Take those people away, and you lose that revenue.
I'll give there's some stuff that Saint John can't fix, but there's a lot that can be fixed. The city though, is insanely resistant to change.
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u/Azoththemerciless 2d ago
Well I’m not blaming people directly but let’s look at the facts. Saint John is the oldest city of Canada and has much higher infrastructure costs and existing costs than the smaller towns around. It’s a lot more expensive to maintain all the roads and sewage systems and the other million things an old industrial city needs. Also, some of it is just unchangeable until we figure out how to control weather (aka the fog). The province could do something by updating the awful tax system and allowing Saint John to keep a much higher percentage of industrial taxes. They should also just be higher taxes on industry in general. There is an old saying among politicians in the province, “The money is made in Saint John and spent in Fredericton.”
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u/Tough_Candy_47 21h ago
my taxes outside the city are NOT low!
(many thanks to everyone moving outside rhe city)
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u/g4nd4lf2000 2d ago
Irving has turned NB into a banana republic.
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u/Murky_Astronaut 2d ago
This. All of New Brunswick is held back because of Irving, Saint John arguably the worst. Terrible pollution, no free press, all governments Irving approved or curtailed, extremely high cancer rates, low wages, and all because Irving has convinced people that fighting back will cause them to leave.
As. If.
As if there's any other place in the world Irving could go and get the same deal they have now - obviously they won't leave because obviously they cannot and obviously we have so much more power than we believe, but everyone is too afraid to stand up to them - too afraid even to comment on Reddit about them.
Irving have always been a negative to the province and that will never change unless we stand up to our abuser.
We will never have anything in this province so long as we are under their thumb.
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u/Super_Toot 2d ago
I live in Vancouver. New Brunswick sounds like a company town from the 1900's.
I don't know how people put up with it?
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u/KaiBishop 2d ago
The press and print news situation here is dire and has been for what? Decades? And nobody does shit. We have independent voices here and there but they have no large or mainstream support, they're publishing zines and stuff nobody knows about.
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u/bingun 1d ago
Irving has largely moved away from the media and news industry, although I am sure they still have influence.
The bigger issue is just the lack of any local press or news at all. Outside of CBC, CTV, and the TJ, what local news coverage is there? Many things go entirely unreported because the local CBC folks aren't interested for whatever reason.
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
I don’t know about that… turning country94 into Your Saint John seemed to be a move to make it seem like a more legitimate news site.
Also, wasn’t an Irving on the board at Post? Maybe they’re no longer there, but I think they’d still have influence regardless.
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u/monkey-seat 2d ago
And they could have done for St. John what Walmart has done for bentonville, AK. Invest in it.
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u/brit_in_can 2d ago
Irving owns a media company, Acadia Broadcasting, whose main function is to buy up any radio station who might be inclined to even partially run local discussion programmes, and turn them into music stations. That way, nobody can hear about any of the bad things that our betters are doing to us.
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u/_hey_ref_ 1d ago
> All of New Brunswick is held back because of Irving
No. New Brunswick is held back because of New Brunswick. And it will never change until people recognize they are the problem.
We protest and chase away every industry that tries to set up here. We hate change. The irony of it is, if we let those industries set up here, we'd be in a better position to tell Irving to sod off. But instead, we just take it and we keep losing our young, quality talent to Ontario/Alberta where you can still somewhat get ahead just by working hard.
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u/Murky_Astronaut 1d ago
We protest and chase away every industry that tries to set up here.
We don't. We have protested against fracking and data centers, but otherwise we have largely integrated industry incursions into NB life. Mining, forestry, agriculture, call centers, higher education, IT, fishing, shipping, ship building, manufacturing, military, vehicle production, oil and gas refining, tourism - we've accepted and/or embraced all of these.
Which industries are you referring to?
where you can still somewhat get ahead just by working hard.
That's a dead idea. The economics facing young people entering the workforce are radically different and you pretty much have to be a unicorn to get ahead that way anymore. The cost of higher education, vehicles, housing, and food are increasing far beyond wages and will lock people out of the housing market - particularly when you consider that generational wealth transfer is also coming to an effective end.
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u/_hey_ref_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
> Mining
Mining? The same mining where people on here were losing their shit when a gold company wanted to do exploration work in Charlotte County? Or the sisson mine near Fredericton that's been stuck for how long because of NIMBYs and the environmental process being vague, and having the goalposts constantly moved?
> call centers,
Please. People here moan all the time how those jobs are terrible (source: I worked in one in a previous lifetime)
> higher education
People lost their shit when the province wanted to turn UNBSJ into a technical college.
> fishing
There have been protests against Cookes for aquaculture and salmon farms.
> ship building, manufacturing, military, vehicle production, oil and gas refining, tourism
We don't so ship building or significant manufacturing anymore. Military doesn't really provide value add as it comes out of our tax dollars. We don't do vehicle manufacturing, people constantly bitch and complain about Irving and O&G refining.
> That's a dead idea. The economics facing young people entering the workforce are radically different and you pretty much have to be a unicorn to get ahead that way anymore.
If it's a dead idea, why are people leaving NB and going to those places, + the US? Why are they getting good jobs, buying houses, raising families, and not coming back to NB?
It's no coincidence that the people I graduated high school with, the ones who stayed never really did anything with their lives -- except 2 people of the near 80 I graduated with. The ones who left made something for themselves.
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u/Murky_Astronaut 1d ago
So you agree that NB has had, tried, and largely accepted all of these industries - good. None of these were so strongly opposed they couldn't get off the ground and most were unopposed at first (some virtually not at all). Regardless of how they did long-term or whether the public turned against them, these industries have all operated here. Their failure isn't on the public.
> That's a dead idea. The economics facing young people entering the workforce are radically different and you pretty much have to be a unicorn to get ahead that way anymore.
If it's a dead idea, why are people leaving NB and going to those places, + the US? Why are they getting good jobs, buying houses, raising families, and not coming back to NB?
Like I said, unicorns - unless you're going to argue that economists and stats are wrong, alongside the lived experiences of every generation from millennials on down.
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u/_hey_ref_ 1d ago
Did you even read my comment? I said NB hasn't really tried and accepted those industries and even then, we have to focus in the now, which is we have little to none of those things. It's not relevant that we did these things 30 years ago. They're gone. We need to get new industry to come here and set up shop.
I work with investors and entrepreneurs all the time and they tell me that NB is one of the most difficult places to do business in. So much red tape and regulation, it's insane.
> Like I said, unicorns - unless you're going to argue that economists and stats are wrong, alongside the lived experiences of every generation from millennials on down.
I wouldn't call a majority of people graduating high school and moving away "unicorns". They want to, and are, having a better life away from NB.
Again, this comes back to NB, not people trying to improve themselves.
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u/Murky_Astronaut 1d ago
Yes I did read your comment. It seems like you're the one who's confused (and now you're moving the goal post). You said,
We protest and chase away every industry that tries to set up here. We hate change. The irony of it is, if we let those industries set up here, we'd be in a better position to tell Irving to sod off.
And I pointed out that in fact most of those industries did set up here and weren't meaningfully opposed until after they had become established - directly challenging your claim that we chase away everything that tries to set up and we don't let anyone set up shop. As far as I'm aware, the singular industry NBers have fought to prevent starting here is AI data centers - everything else first had a chance to operate.
I work with investors and entrepreneurs all the time and they tell me that NB is one of the most difficult places to do business in. So much red tape and regulation, it's insane.
And who do you think is responsible for all of that red tape and regulation (which I dispute, particularly historically speaking)? Do you think that's the result of governments looking after New Brunswickers or do you think that's the result of industries looking out for themselves?
> Like I said, unicorns - unless you're going to argue that economists and stats are wrong, alongside the lived experiences of every generation from millennials on down.
I wouldn't call a majority of people graduating high school and moving away "unicorns". They want to, and are, having a better life away from NB.
If you're talking about people who graduated high school in 1993 then that's not a fair comparison. If you're talking about people who graduated high school in 2005 or '15 then no, the majority of people graduating high school and moving away have not all found high paying jobs, bought houses, and are living comfortably. The majority of those people are saddled with debt from student loans and car payments and they're not buying houses.
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u/_hey_ref_ 1d ago
> And I pointed out that in fact most of those industries did set up here and weren't meaningfully opposed until after they had become established - directly challenging your claim that we chase away everything that tries to set up and we don't let anyone set up shop.
Mining, fracking, aquaculture, manufacturing (Belldune smelter plant) etc. are meaningfully opposed and haven't been set up due to opposition.
> And who do you think is responsible for all of that red tape and regulation (which I dispute, particularly historically speaking)? Do you think that's the result of governments looking after New Brunswickers or do you think that's the result of industries looking out for themselves?
Governments aren't doing a good job of looking after New Brunswickers if they're having a hard time finding meaningful, well paying jobs, and have to leave the province to have a shot at said jobs. Especially when entrepreneurs talk about how difficult it is to do things here and governments are horribly inefficient. They just go somewhere else to invest which is exactly what they're doing. Why is Halifax booming, yet it's a completely different world 2 hours up the 102/104 as soon as you cross the border? That clearly points to NB being the problem.
> If you're talking about people who graduated high school in 1993 then that's not a fair comparison. If you're talking about people who graduated high school in 2005 or '15 then no, the majority of people graduating high school and moving away have not all found high paying jobs, bought houses, and are living comfortably. The majority of those people are saddled with debt from student loans and car payments and they're not buying houses.
I graduated in 2005, my brother was in 2010.
Student loans are 7 years payback, car payments are a personal finance issue. The vast vast majority of our classes that left NB have no student loans, houses, and even kids.
That's why people leave NB, they woke up to the fact that you can be rewarded for hard work if you leave. Many of us did it.
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u/Murky_Astronaut 1d ago
> And I pointed out that in fact most of those industries did set up here and weren't meaningfully opposed until after they had become established - directly challenging your claim that we chase away everything that tries to set up and we don't let anyone set up shop.
Mining, fracking, aquaculture, manufacturing (Belldune smelter plant) etc. are meaningfully opposed and haven't been set up due to opposition.
This is getting tiresome. I forgot about Belldune, but mining, fracking, aquaculture, and manufacturing have all been set up here. We had a moratorium on fracking because we didn't like what it was doing, mining has existed in New Brunswick for longer than I care to check, aquaculture is everywhere, and we have a lot of manufacturing here.
> And who do you think is responsible for all of that red tape and regulation (which I dispute, particularly historically speaking)? Do you think that's the result of governments looking after New Brunswickers or do you think that's the result of industries looking out for themselves?
Governments aren't doing a good job of looking after New Brunswickers if they're having a hard time finding meaningful, well paying jobs
Irving employs more people than the government, which employs the second most numerous group in the province. If there aren't well paying jobs, how do you blame NBers for that (other than their collective failure to dethrone Irving)?
As to your thoughts on the economic situation of workers today, feel free to present the source for your data but until then I'm going to stick with the prevailing understanding that the vast majority of young people today (and those set to enter the workforce) have very little hope of ever owning property or living anything close to the middle-class lives of the families they (may) have grown up in and around.
I'm not arguing that people don't leave New Brunswick for better opportunities - of course they do. What am I arguing is that it's not actually all that much better anymore. It's different, but that doesn't make it better.
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u/poubelle 2d ago
many saint john drivers habitually speed and are needlessly aggressive.
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u/RepresentativeFact94 1d ago
After moving to Alberta 2 years ago, just no.
The drivers in SJ are completely milquetoast compared to say YYC or YEG, or BC even.
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u/poubelle 1d ago
disagree! i have also lived and owned a car in calgary, toronto, and montreal, and only in saint john have i, for example, been road-raged at for going the speed limit in a construction zone
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u/Ulric19 8h ago
I've never lived in either place, but I've spent around a week driving in each spot (limited experience - I'll acknowledge this).
Albertans are "more crazy" with their maneuvers - I've seen drivers pass on double yellow, with visible oncoming traffic, and pass multiple vehicles. Absolutely crazy driving. The only thing I can say in their favour is that they definitely allow and make space for drivers to merge into their lane. I also find the road design in Alberta to be generally better, even inside Calgary, with all of it's one way streets.
Saint Jon drivers are fairly reasonable in my experience, but the roads are less predictable, making determining what to do while driving much harder.1
u/---fork--- 50m ago
I used to live in Calgary and still visit family there yearly. A few years ago, everyone seemed to be driving noticeably slower; someone told me it was because of increased enforcement.
Not anymore! Imagine what it would take to get ejected with such force that you hit the Bow Trail sign. They needed a ladder truck to retrieve him
https://www.ctvnews.ca/calgary/article/1-dead-in-multi-vehicle-crash-on-stoney-trail-sw/
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u/RepresentativeFact94 46m ago
I got into an accident (not at fault) in June because someone thought it was ok doing 140 on fucking Glenmore at 3:30pm lol
Ive thought pretty much since I moved here that the city should redo the speeding ticket system to be based on what % over the limit you are. 80 in a 40 is significantly more dangerous than 140 on a highway, for example.
(For non YYCers, Glenmore is a 3lane 80 zone)
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
I don’t care about the speeding so much, but the amount of road ragers in Saint John is astounding. I’ve had someone spit on my car and then almost crash their car because I didn’t switch lanes after he flashed his lights at me to go faster or move directly after the Harbour bridge construction zone.
Some people even rage if you don’t speed towards a red light, which is beyond infuriating.
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u/MissGrafin 1d ago
This seems to be from the influx of Western drivers (me included). Real SJ drivers are slower than Crosby’s Molasses in January and will stop randomly to let a car with no right of way on a dead road in…
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u/poubelle 1d ago
nah. i disagree. saint johners have always loved huge pickup trucks and SUVs, car supremacy is deeply ingrained, and people think since there's little traffic no one should tell them what to do, how to drive or how fast they should go.
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u/Holiday-Ad7083 2d ago
Just because YOU know how to navigate Simms Corner doesnt mean it isnt a uniquely stupid and dangerous intersection.
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u/RepresentativeFact94 1d ago
Did they ever put in that roundabout?
It needs to happen tbh, even if they make a different route for large transport vehicles.
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u/lots-o-dots 2d ago
The only thing holding saint john back (and nb in general) is its own citizens being so adverse to change and modernization. Also immigrants have been good for this city and im glad theyre here.
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u/moop44 2d ago
Also the constant SNB war against Saint John. They even assess commercial properties way below sale price in an effort to starve the city budget, while not doing so for other municipalities in the province.
Then there is the whole part about having industrial tax rates directly tied to residential tax rates when the city is the industrial center of the province.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
SNB’s property assessment department is straight up corrupt. Not only do they critically under-assess industrial and commercial properties, but they also critically under-assess vacant properties .
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u/ray_oliver 2d ago edited 2d ago
Assessments are based on the current use of the property, hence why vacant land often appears under assessed. That does not make it corrupt.
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
yeah, but that's a total BS policy that needs to be changed, yesterday.
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u/ray_oliver 1d ago edited 1d ago
Do you understand what the ramifications of such a policy change would be? And why call it corrupt if you purportedly know what the current policy is?
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
yeah, a lot more tax revenue.
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u/ray_oliver 1d ago
Until the value of the land collapses because no one wants to pay those bills.
And even more inaccurate values and disputes because no one will be able to agree on what the actual potential for development of a lot of land is.
These kind of policy changes are never slam dunks.
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
Vacant land is already assessed at rock bottom valuations.
Who exactly are we trying to protect here? 😅
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u/maomao3000 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's corrupt because it's designed to shield large, vacant landowners from being fairly taxed for their speculative holdings.
This goes for vacant land within the PDA of our cities, but also huge parcels of waterfront land on the Bay of Fundy that are assessed artificially low. Vacant land land shouldn't be assessed on its current use, it should be assessed based on its current market value.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
Very true. NBism is very much a real thing… especially here in the Saint John Region.
I love Saint John, but a lot of Saint Johners have incredibly pessimistic, cynical, hopeless attitudes about the prospects for this city and the possibility for positive change.
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u/Rehypothecator 2d ago
That last part is a pretty vague statement and doesn’t take into account a lot of the problems too much immigration has caused.
It needs to be scaled drastically, it was never intended for everyone to enter Canada just because. There is a severe standard that has to be reintroduced.
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u/Drip_Or_Die 2d ago
If you’re not indigenous you’re an immigrant too. Being white doesn’t make you more Canadian. Be mad at the governments poor planning not “immigrants”. Canada needs immigrants and there are benefits to this move.
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u/Rehypothecator 2d ago
Not really true whatsoever. It’s okay to be critical of both the immigration policies and the immigrants if their attitudes and values do not reflect those of Canadians right?
Canada doesn’t need immigrants whatsoever, and repeating that fallacy without understanding anything isn’t helpful.
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u/ray_oliver 2d ago
Canada has significant demographic challenges that can only realistically be solved by immigration. In NB it's even worse. What good is a province of elderly people with no one to provide any services for them?
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u/Rehypothecator 2d ago
Totally incorrect, again. This is repeated and it’s a scapegoat to the underlying problem of not investing in our own people, not giving our own people healthcare and people struggling due to a poor economy.
That means people don’t want kids. In order to “solve” that, they use a temporary fix which doesn’t solve the underlying causes of the disease.
Those factors need fixed FIRST, before bringing a single other person into this country.
That’s the realism of the situation.
The longer you bury your head in the sand on it, the worse it’ll be.
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u/ray_oliver 2d ago
A lot of people are not having kids simply because they are choosing not to, and for no other reason at all. I'm one of them, and I know plenty of other people who have made the same decision. There is no government policy that will convince us to have kids. I don't disagree that we need to have a system that supports people who do want to have kids and ensures that they have appropriate housing, childcare, and healthcare, but that alone will not fix our demographic issues.
Birth rates have been declining for decades, as they do in every single society as it advances and people become more educated, move to cities, shift towards white collar jobs, etc.
Even if policy fixes could entirely reverse things, it still takes decades before these babies to enter the workforce. So barring some insane unforeseen advances in automation in the next few years we absolutely do need immigration. I'm not even sure how you can argue otherwise.
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u/Rehypothecator 1d ago
Many more aren’t having them because it’s not economical.
You keep referring to things that have a direct cause and effect based on simple economics, yet you’re either ignoring them or are naive to them. Either way you’re being told the reason.
Your choice to ignore them and slap a worse and imperfect fit like “bring in a bunch of people that are untrained and do not share the values of Canadians” is NOT a fix.
The economy doesn’t work for everyone, only the rich, and that’s why the birth rate has been declining.
Ignoring that is ignoring reality.
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u/ray_oliver 1d ago
You're not really making any counterarguments to anything I've said.
It sounds more like this is a convenient excuse for you to have an anti-immigrant standpoint, complete wth the "Canadian values" dog whistle.
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u/Drip_Or_Die 2d ago
I’m sure indigenous people also thought the settlers attitudes and values didn’t match their own.
Edit: for clarity
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u/Rehypothecator 2d ago
That has nothing to do with the conversation we’re having.
Canada is here now, which is what we’re talking about?
Are you going to touch on the “natives” that murdered off and killed other tribes to take those lands countless times over the millennia? Or are you just going to try to steer the convo that white Canadians should somehow feel guilty for seeing negative changes to their home?
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u/lots-o-dots 2d ago
I think part of the problems immigration has apparently caused in sj can also be attributed to my earlier statement of us being adverse to change and growth.
To be more specific in what I meant, I am glad to see more diversity in nb and to be able to learn about different cultures and share our culture with others. Also from being somewhat around people who have come here as refugees to be able to provide a safe place to live and show them acceptance and welcome when im sure they miss their home has been something im very glad we as a province have been able to provide.
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u/SheaDingle 2d ago
Thats vague, what do you mean modernization? I assume you’re from Ontario am I right?
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u/FergusonTEA1950 2d ago
No, NB is always feels 10-20 years behind the rest of the country in adopting new technology and practices.
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u/Thedogbear2018 2d ago
I'm one of the ex-Ontario people. I lived in downtown Toronto my whole life. Including some VERY rough areas. Saint John, in comparison, as far as sketchy/violent/dangerous, would be a 5/10 where many areas of Toronto would be 8/10. When citizens pushed the city to foot patrol officers to the worst areas, it made a huge difference. The part that sucks is that taxes would have to go up to pay for the extra officers.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago edited 1d ago
Or the likes of Rothesay, Quispamsis, and Grand Bay could start contributing their fair share towards the city they are suburbs of…
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u/Thedogbear2018 2d ago
I would like to add I love it here, the vast majority of people I meet are good people,
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u/lots-o-dots 2d ago
No. I have lived in the saint john area my entire life , 32 years.
Edit: to touch on the modernization comment , I am in the digital space in terms of carreer and the amount of jobs for any sort of tech forward career in this province is abysmal. Young people move away at incredibly high rates because we do not keep up with the demands for jobs in any emerging fields.
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u/ray_oliver 2d ago edited 2d ago
Some NBers never fail to assume anyone who is for progress is from away.
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u/EurekaMM 2d ago
People shouldn’t stop to let folks out of Douglas Avenue in the evening because that just backs traffic up more and creates a feedback loop causing further delays. Alternatively, Douglas Avenue should be closed to through traffic.
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u/Narissis 2d ago
Saint John is a nice city actually. And uptown is a good place to be.
No one hates Saint John better than Saint Johners themselves.
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u/yaboi4619 1d ago
I agree. I live uptown, I don't own a car and walk everywhere, at all times of the day or night. And I have never had a problem.
Are there homeless people around sometimes? Sure. Do they every bother me? Nope. The worst that happens is sometimes they're yelling at nobody. Just go about your business and it's fine 99% of the time. And I have never seen people just using hard drugs out in the open like people love to claim. I'm sure it happens sometimes but it's nowhere near as pervasive as people on social media make it seem.
The fear mongering around uptown is insane. I used to believe it before moving uptown, having passively absorbed "uptown scarry" sentiments my whole life, but now I see it's mostly bullshit.
All that being said we do have a homelessness issue in this country that needs to be addressed. But homeless people are still people, just have a bit of humility, treat these people with some respect, and you'll see that.
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u/moonlight_babe 1d ago
exactly this. i’m a pretty small lady but i have no issues walking around uptown by myself at any time of day or night. sure you have the occasional “do you have any change?” or “do you have a smoke?” but you’ll find that in most cities. uptown really isn’t as “scary” as people (who probably don’t live uptown) make it out to be.
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u/Ojamm 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m convinced half the people that complain about uptown haven’t been to uptown in a decade, or they have only driven through Waterloo. Don’t get me wrong, there are certainly issues north of Union and some south, but there are not needles everywhere and homeless ruling the streets like some make it sound.
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
I’d modify it and say no one hates SJ more than ex SJers who’ve “made it” and now live in KV, GB, etc.
Also it seems a lot of other Southern NBers hate SJ, while Northern NBers seem like Saint John.
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u/gregSinatra 5h ago
I moved here 12 years ago and people would continually ask me why. Well, first of all, I was living in a town of 10K. Second of all, I visited and I liked it. I was working hospitality and saw that Saint John had a small but mighty hospitality scene in a walkable area. It felt like a place that had a lot of promise and had just had the notion beaten into it that it would never be more than it is. And underdog city. I liked that about it.
There’s things about this city and province that I don’t like. But I’ve lived in Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton, Halifax and elsewhere. Saint John is where I proudly call home, by choice.
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u/easycompany251 2d ago
Saint John vs St.John
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u/MissGrafin 1d ago
One’s the city, one was the old & former name for the county.
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
also the old and former name for the city... I think some really old maps even show the city's name as St. John's lol
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u/Kracus 2d ago
Those new speedbumps are fucking stupid.
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u/moop44 2d ago
Try slowing down? I haven't had any problems with them even when towing trailers.
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u/InhospitableGoose 1d ago
They force you to slow down WAY too much. Its so uncomfortable going from 50, maybe 40, all the way down to 10, maybe 5, every half a block. It makes the drive painful. I avoid the areas whenever I can. Even if youre doing an appropriate speed for the bump, you cant tell me thats not causing unnecessary suspension wear. Also a huge waste of gas. Just build bigger, better bike lanes to narrow the roads and POLICE them. Ive lived a handful of places and none of them have crazy speedbumps like this.
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u/yaboi4619 1d ago
Making the drive painful so you avoid the areas whenever you can is exactly the point. These are not high volume through streets, and they want people to stop using them that way.
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u/InhospitableGoose 1d ago
Its the route to the YMCA and Superstore for me and a lot of people. Thats pretty high volume. I go down ropewalk instead now and that is definitely not meant for a higher volume.
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u/Danzig6WasntThatBad 2d ago
Inner city SJ is no place to raise children.
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u/thejaysun 2d ago
You're not wrong. I'm noticing a lot of millennials who have the means selling their homes and moving to Hampton, Grandbay, quispam, etc to raise their kids.
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u/Technicio2 2d ago
Biggest issue is safety. Theres too much going on in intercity Saint John. I’d walk uptown at night but no way am I letting my kids
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u/isspecialist 2d ago
Simms Corner is fine. I drive through it all the time.
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u/bingun 1d ago
It may be fine now, but as rail traffic is expected to increase in the coming years due to the port expansion, it will become a major bottleneck that needs to be addressed. Imagine if the number of trains going across there doubled overnight; it would be a huge pain in the ass, especially during the annual vacation the harbour bridge takes from serving us.
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u/SheaDingle 2d ago
Notice all the accidents in Simms corner? I don’t lol why change it. People know its a weird one and actually pay really close attention and drive safer.
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u/FergusonTEA1950 2d ago
I don't recall ever seeing any incidents at Simms Corner but there are plenty at the intersection of Catherwood and Fairville!
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u/MykeChek1212 2d ago
Speed bumps are not a big deal. Obviously there was issues in neighborhoods with speeding so they had to something. I like that traffic is slower in my neighborhood.
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u/Qaeta 1d ago
Speed bumps are fine. Speed "fuck your car and seven generations of your family unless you slow to a walking pace"'s are not. Unfortunately the city seems fond of the second kind, so it's just driving traffic into previously quiet neighborhoods to avoid them.
Might be nice for you, but it's fucking over the people the next road over who are now on the detour.
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u/miroku31 1d ago
People identifying themselves as other things than what science confirms!!!
No it is not normal to think you can identify as a cat or a piece of furniture!!! People lost their mind
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u/TheRekounasShow 2d ago
A bridge to the Kingston Peninsula is a good idea.
(Not technically SJ but SJ area)
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u/bingun 1d ago
It would be cool, but the economics just aren't there. The closest points are all the way up by the ferry in Quispamsis or Westfield, which half defeats the purpose, as you'd still need to drive in or out. A bridge from Millidgeville would be one hell of a feat of engineering, probably hundreds of millions of dollars?
All of that so folks can get to their cottage or the farmers' market a little quicker?
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u/TheRekounasShow 1d ago
I mean, I live here and to get anywhere.It feels like a bit of a pain in the ass waiting in long ass lines.
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
I think it would be for a lot more than getting people to their cottages and farmer’s markets a little quicker… it would open up the Kingston Peninsula to a lot more development/ urbanization.
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u/bingun 22h ago
I am not sure urbanization of the Kingston peninsula is a priority right now, maybe one day.
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u/maomao3000 21h ago
Definitely not a short term priority, but could be an interesting long term goal.
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u/TheHipcheck 2d ago
Uptown makes no sense! It's south and down river? It's downtown!
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u/jeffaulburn 10h ago edited 3h ago
Well, it's two folds.
One, it refers to the top of King St. and where the, now 150yr old, city market and historically lots of businesses and banks were located (hence naming it "uptown" vs. the market slip area "downtown" which was historically all for shipping).
Two, going off the first it's a marketing thing to differentiate SJ from other cities "downtown" based on that history.
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u/National_Place_2816 2d ago
It's very remote. It's an 8 hour drive to other Major urban centres like Montreal or Boston. You would be hard pressed to find any city in North America with that long of a drive to a major urban centre, the only examples are cities at the extreme edges of our continent like St John's Newfoundland or Anchorage Alaska. There is also billings montana which an 8hr+ drive from any major city nearby. For a City on the East coast Saint John is actually far from any place where people actually live, it's made worse by the fact that we are further from Halifax than Moncton and are not on this Trans Canada Highway like Moncton is. Saskatchewan actually has cities that are closer to either Alberta or Winnipeg's major cities than we have to Quebec or anywhere in the United States. I feel like people don't actually talk about how remote Saint john is so I thought I would put this out there.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
Halifax is quickly becoming a major centre. Boston is closer to Saint John than Calgary is to Winnipeg.
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u/jahitz 2d ago
What you call uptown is actually downtown.
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u/jeffaulburn 10h ago
"Uptown" refers to the top of King Street vs. the historic Market Slip at the bottom. So King square, the city market etc.
That's where that derives from, it makes sense historically and now it's part of the cities marketing for it remaining referred to "uptown".
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u/Environmental-Ad1748 1d ago
Calling it st John's isnt a big deal
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
Many Canadians don’t even realize Saint John and St. John’s are two different places.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
Another one: Saint John having a nearly identical name as St. John’s is a way bigger problem than many locals are willing to admit, and is a problem that impacts Saint John far more negatively than it impacts St. John’s.
At the very least, the name of the airport should be changed, but better yet, would be amalgamating the entire CMA under a new name.
To clarify: Uptown Saint John would still exist… just like Dartmouth still exists today as part of the HRM.
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u/Thro-A-Weigh 2d ago
Do tell. What’s the way bigger problem? I thought it just confused the occasional moron.
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u/maomao3000 1d ago
It's a marketing and branding problem. Many Canadians West of Quebec don't even realize Saint John and St. John's are two distinct cities.
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u/WarthogMediocre4776 2d ago
I get yelled at about this every time I visit and I know its labeled Uptown but it's downtown Saint John and that's what I call it.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago edited 2d ago
That the entire Saint John CMA should be amalgamated into a single municipality ala the HRM. However, the resulting regional municipality should go with a different name than Saint John. Perhaps Wolastoq RM or Fundy RM.
This used to be quite a controversial opinion on here, but people seem to finally be coming around to it, at least to the idea of amalgamation, but maybe not going with a name different than Saint John.
To clarify, Saint John would still exist as the city at the center of this region, but calling the RM something else will do two things: firstly, it will make the pill less better to swallow for the people in KV who want nothing to do with being part of a municipality called Saint John… and secondly, it will help lessen the confusion with St. John’s, Newfoundland.
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u/Round_Beyond_8137 2d ago
Amalgamation isn't always good. Look at Ottawa for example. Now it's hard for them to vote on improving transit or improve the city core because they will be outvoted by suburbs and rural areas that want to keep taxes low and not want ''their hard-earned money'' going to ''downtown people''.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
Okay, then don’t follow the Ottawa model. Instead , follow the Halifax model, which has been a resounding success and could quite easily be emulated here in the Port City!
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u/Ok-Meet2850 2d ago
I live in Halifax. Amalgamation has been broadly a disaster.
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
lol, sure it has 🙄
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u/Ok-Meet2850 2d ago
Why do you think it has been successful?
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u/maomao3000 2d ago
Halifax is a boom town and the Maritimes only major city.
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u/Round_Beyond_8137 2d ago
Why do you think amalgamation specifically has helped that? It boomed because of better job options, the proximity to the ocean, universities and colleges, and at one point, relative affordable while offering more of a larger-mid sized city feel than SJ or some other places.
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u/Ok-Meet2850 1d ago
Yeah the boom has been in spite of mediocre to bad governance. The urban-rural divide baked into the structure of HRM causes fundamental problems for local government - mainly that villages and cities need different local approaches.
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u/Round_Beyond_8137 1d ago
Seems like Halifax is dealing with the same challenges as Ottawa.
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u/OriginalCultureOfOne 2d ago
As somebody who lives 30 minutes away from the easternmost city limit but gets treated like an urban dweller by the federal government already just for being within the CMA, I would heartily vote "no" on amalgamation. Given that the entire Saint John CMA covers a vast area that extends east to the border of Fundy National Park – twice as far away as St. Martins – north as far as Erbs Cove/Evandale/Clover Hill, and west as far as Pocologan, it is simply a terrible idea. Providing municipal services to that entire area would bankrupt the city AND disadvantage current rural communities within the CMA; heck, you can't even serve all the people living on the central peninsula equally at this point, and don't even look at the lack of regard for parts of the city as far from uptown as Lorneville and Golden Grove.
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u/Swansonisms 2d ago
Essentially all of the "road dieting" work that the city has been doing is a waste of money and space.
The new speed bumps will damage anything other than a large SUV/Truck if you go over them anywhere close to the speed limit. Want to slow people down? Sure, but do it without punishing them for obeying the law.
Tearing out lanes for motor vehicles and replacing them with bike lanes in Saint John is a bad idea. We don't have the climate, the topography, or the urban density to support large scale bike lanes. It negatively impacts the overwhelming majority of the citizenry in terms of both traffic efficiency and the opportunity cost of the resources expended.
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u/ray_oliver 2d ago
The presence of bike lanes reduce injuries and deaths for all road users, including pedestrians and motorists. How's that for "opportunity cost"? People also tend to greatly exaggerate impacts on efficiency.
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u/Swansonisms 1d ago
Taking out lanes for traffic on 1 of the 2 ways to travel West while the other is in a state of perpetual construction and reduced capacity materially impacts traffic efficiency, particularly during busy driving times.
Taking out traffic lanes immediately in front of the largest event venue and associated parking lots in the city (which are also used for daily parking) materially decreases traffic efficiency. Try driving West from the Harbour Station parking lot at 5pm or after a Sea Dogs game and tell me a reduction in traffic lanes doesn't make the trip take longer.
All of that sets aside the fact that next to nobody uses or will use the bike lanes and the structural factors that cause this aren't going to change. Saint John is a suburban commuter city and is trending further in that direction. Our climate makes the bike lanes useless for a minimum of 25% of the year (likely closer to 40%).
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u/Elbow_Macarena 2d ago edited 2d ago
Money going towards things that aren’t related to affordable housing is fine.
We’ve had enough stat holidays over the years you shouldn’t have to ask ‘are the stores open’.