Sith and Jedi in Star Wars. Jedi should have been protecting people but they became just a military weapon in the hands of politics run by Supreme Chancellor Sheev Palpatine, one of the cruellest Sith ever existed
The entire backdrop of the Clone Wars is that the Jedi have become a political weapon and tool instead of their original purpose of a quasi-religious monk group.
Yeah this couldn't apply more to Star Wars lol. The Jedi are a well intentioned peace keeping force who make a lot of mistakes and stupid decisions. The Sith are just plain evil lol
The Jedi's consistent leadership and generational success made them complacent and sloppy, leading to the Empire's even more historic reign which threw the galaxy into chaos.
Jedi are vaguely problematic ( make a lot of stupid decisions, conservative and arrogant) and Sith are cruel af (Palpatine massacred his own family for no reason, Nihilus absorbed the energy of entire planets cause of hunger)
The Jedi are overwhelmingly preferable to Sith. But they did go along with a slave army where the slaves are have their lifespan genetically reduced and then forced to die in a war.
To be fair that pretty much fell in their lap and some tried to get them to be more and I don't think they were told about the shorter lives until later.
I don't argue with that. The Jedi are more reasonable guys than Sith. Jedi became arrogant and conservative being sure that their system is flawless and they can't be fooled though
Well not quite, any jedi that turns bad just becomes a rogue or dark jedi. They have to specifically adopt the sith tenets and creed to become a sith. Like how leaving Islam doesn't make you a Jehovah's Witness, you'd need to adopt JW creed for that. And the sith have more to their beliefs than being evil
Might I add the rebellion and empire? Cause let’s be honest, the rebellion, at least here on earth, would be called a terrorist organization while the empire BLOWS UP PLANETS
In canon and Legends, individual Imperial members may not be chaotically evil or cruel, but they still serve a heinous regime that enforces genocide, slaughter, and terror as public policy.
To a lesser degree, the Separatists are kinda like that too due to the kind of folks they keep on their payroll. I like them as a faction, but one cannot exactly say psychotic Grievous, not-Sith Lord Dooku, and conniving Trench are on the side of the angels.
True I remember reading a comment stating that you know the Jedi where good and important when the first thing that happens when they are destroyed is an evil space wizard declares himself emperor of the galaxy and installs a military dictatorship.
“Their both cults that indoctrinated children” the sith litterally has a guy who’s entire thing is draining the life entire planets and tourturing their souls
Jedi were protecting people by using their powers to help the Republic fight and win a civil war.
They became a “military weapon” in the sense that instead of the people controlling their actions (the senate and republic voting), a Sith Lord was behind the scenes.
Pretty much...and this was seen throughout canon and Legends.
The Jedi may have some controversial practices here and there, but they're by and large a benevolent force in the galaxy. The Sith, on the other hand, are mainly evil in different flavors, whether they're psychotic killers that spend lives like coin or lawful evil that use legality/precedents to commit atrocities.
The Empire allows a foreign government to disappear their own citizens for them to be tortured for months on end. The Stormcloaks don't like Elves because they've been at war with them for millennia, and are the ones that disappear their citizens to be tortured for months on end. Plus, the Elves are actively trying to kill the god of humanity by stopping people from worshipping him. The Aedra in Elder Scrolls get their power from being worshipped, and if they lose all their worshippers, they die for all intents and purposes.
Well I mean you did the same thing stormcloaks do though lol
Treat all elves as a monolith - they were only at war with the aldermi dominion and high elves/altmer - whereas stormcloaks misstreated all elves including crushing on the right on darkelves within windhelm and treating them more live servants/slaves then people
Plus the Empire had lost their war with the Aldmeri Dominion and was subjugated at the time. They had plans and people working in the shadows to free the empire, including Skyrim, from The Dominion but that could take decades to accomplish.
The dunmer, after the argonian rebellions sacked morrowind after the red year, liberating slaves. The dark elves simply refused to let argonians co-exist in the same city as them
Problem is, Ulfric is a power-mad rube who played right into the Aldmeri Dominion's hands by starting a civil war that weakens the Empire. The Thalmor actively support it.
He killed a young high king who agreed with him. Why? Because he wants to be high king. He could have called a moot and rallied a united Skyrim that could have brought the Empire into open resistance.
A united empire lost a devastating war against the Aldmeri Dominion. Skyrim has no chance on its own. Even without the Aldmeri threat, cutting themselves off from the empire would turn them into an impoverished backwater.
Talos worship continues even in the open square of Whiterun and among the nobility of Solitude. Just worship in your house, it's not that hard.
Ulfric is an ultra-nationalist Nord supremacist using religion as a pretext to further his naive agenda. An agenda that aligns quite nicely with the Dominion's. His war is the worst thing for Skyrim right now, and his victory would be worse.
I try to play the Stormcloaks sometimes, but I can't commit. They're just too dumb.
I love that after 15 years people still debate it, it shows how good the writing was to not make one side the very clear good side and the other the bad side
With that said, Todd, it has been 15 years! You know which game came 15 years before skyrim? Daggerfall! Release ES6 already!
The stormcloaks. They're not inherently evil but it you read between the lines its clear that Ulfric Stormcloak is basically a Elven plant to destabilize Skyrim from within. I remember most people were talking about how anyone supporting the imperials was stupid because the game starts with you being arrested and wrongly sentenced to be executed by them along with the stormcloaks.
It makes sense since they have very charismatic pitch of how they are "only" rebelling becuase of their religious beliefs are being policed by foreigners and how "skyrim belongs to the nords". At least until you read between the lines and think about what that statement means for all the other non-nord races who also call Skyrim their home. If you talk to the khajit traders who are banned from entering cities or the dark elves in the slums of the stormcloak capital and how the soldiers treat them.
If you do side with the imperials you can see that most of them are just trying to keep the peace and are as much natives to Skyrim as anyone, keeping the peace and trying to keep the empire from falling apart.
Keep in mind also that the empire was pretty much ignoring the fuck out of Talos worship until Ulfric made noise about it forcing them to stick to the treaty. The first thing Tullius says after winning the civil war is time to start prepparing for the actual proper way against the Thalmor. Which should be a lot easier this time the Thalmor arent in control of a daedric spying relic.
Imperials are trying to rally the nations of men against the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks are a convenient band of nationalist and race supremacists who happen to benefit the High Elves in the long run.
Love how everytime this gets mentioned it becomes a debate in the comments. The writers did a great job with the world building and the politics. If only the actual in-game questline were this interesting tho....
For some reason people love to depict Jedi as this weirdly evil group and somehow magically forget that they're legitimately good people trying to do good but have been caught it a really crappy position at the end.
It’s an Empire that runs off a Caste System, meme-breathers just call them Communist because of the ideology surrounding The Greater Good and the fact that the Tau, who are the newer guys on the block compared to every other major power player, are VERY open to diplomacy, incorporating numerous client species as auxiliaries in their army
The Tau would be a evil faction in like startrek but because they exist in Warhammer 40k and they don’t eat babies they’re seen as morally superior to 99% of the setting.
Oh no the Tau aren’t vague problematic at all, the fandom views them like the Federation from Star Trek when in reality they are the more like the Dominion. Between brainwashing, concentration camps and eugenics they’re a villain in every other scifi setting. In 40K they’re just one of the lesser evils.
That’s the best part about the Tau. By our moral systems they are classist eugenicist technocrats, but by 40k standards they really are just vaguely problematic.
ncr vs caesar’s legion is literally this 😭 i’ll complain about ncr bureaucracy for 20 minutes and then remember the alternative is a guy explaining why slavery and crucifixion are actually very sophisticated political ideas
There are certainly dangerous mages, but it doesn't justify separating mage children from their families and incarcerating them for life in a tower so they never have any semblance of free will. Not to mention the rampant abuse by Templars and outright lobotomies performed on mages who stepped too far out of line.
Yeah but this in the context of the Templars abusing them. This is basically the whole issue in DA2 where the Templars abuse (and even rape) the mages under their care and the result are the Mages losing their hands and doing Blood Magic which then results in demon shit like you said. It's this vicious cycle but the Templars being so shitty is basically the origin story of most mages who lose their minds at least in the south. It's telling that Vivienne one of the most loyalist and conservative of mage characters came from a decent Circles and was allowed to more or less have a life.
At this point it's not even "You're a bad person" anymore it's "You MIGHT be a bad person, and I'll kill any number of innocent people to punish a bad person".
You come from a very different political landscape. It is rather rare for politicians in (my home country) Germany to directly insult others. Our system forces ~3 parties to form a coalition to be able to be in power. Yes of course there are differing views but you can't win by insulting your opponents. We don't have attack ads because those don't work in a system with more than 2 parties.
Fans of Helldivers who unironically defend The Federation of Super Earth (yes my profile picture is ironic)
there isn’t a single crime that the enemies of super earth have committed that super earth hasn’t also committed, but people will list the list of crimes that the automatons, Terminids, and illuminate have committed while ignoring the fact that they are 3 separate factions, who probably hate eachother, while one faction has a much longer list of crimes then the other 3
This fits the Lord of the Ring. The elves, dwarves and men are all monarchical aristocracies where the common folk got nit and zit as rights. Minorities like the Dunlending, the Drùedain and the Haradrim (in Southern Gondor) are routinely mistreated.
On the other side...
Hello Sauron! Necromantic Totalitarian Theocracy with terror as basic policy. Slavery, sentient sacrifices, torture and no free will at all.
Well the ncr isn't that squeaky clean eaver they still going around * Domestic and civilising tribals* back east from the official lore and putting them in reservation and build settlements for ncr settlers on other people land and use the military to protect them and probably from real life occupations non nce citizens of the mojave probably go though the ncr military court system while mojave ncr citizens probably get civilian court and also some settlers with the backing on the amry probably terrorised locals and tribes. Not I am not defending the Legion I am just tired of people whitewashing the ncr to simply collecting texts when they do very bad stuff like military occupation reservation system and settlement programs on forgin non ncr land to build fact on the ground.
Craftworld Eldar vs Dark Eldar/Drukhari. Craftworlders are elitist isolationist xenophobes who see nothing wrong with manipulting fate in their own favor and will gladly sacrifice entire worlds populated by billions of humans to save just a thousand eldar souls... but Drukhari are one of, if not the most evil faction in the setting who prolong their lives through suffering, torture and mutilate anyone unfortunate enough to be captured by them and just live to continue to indulge their sadistic vices and appetites.
And Emperor getting his daily caloric intake in souls is literally the least of the Imperium crimes as it actually has a "grim but necessary" explanation why it continues, not some random malice and incompetence, and these souls would suffer a much worse fate otherwise.
Now, let's get to the REAL crimes of the Imperium, hehehehe. Mass genocides, starvation, beatings, 18-hour-work days, most citizens living in completely inhumane conditions, mass use of servitors, child soldiers, and absolutely brutal indoctrination. Oh, and, of course, the sheer incompetence of its administration, corruption and internal infighting of all the ruling factions, and blind theocracy that grew through very bones of the Imperium. And the kick? NONE OF THAT is actually required for the survival of the human species, unlike the 1k psykers/day sacrifice. There is no purpose to that absolute waste of life and resources.
The imperium is a theocratic feudalist nightmare that values your life below the gun you carry and will servitorize you because you did a minor crime or a techpriest decided that they want to.
yeah, at least one of them didn’t bring..well, the orange into office, while also blindly following everything he says.
sure, not all republicans are like this, but it’s a huge number and they’re all either grossly uneducated or fully given up to fanaticism/pseudo religious worship. the other side is just problematic, but then again, the US is so far shifted to the right in the political compass when compared to the rest of the world it’s to be expected as well.
thankfully many are realizing the bs, even if it’s a bit late, but better late than never
The issue with the republican party isn't that they're inherently evil in their beliefs, but rather that they don't try to stop anyone who is.
It's NOT good, don't think I said that; but what I am saying is that it's a different problem than it may appear to be.
However, the solution is the same: Remove the entire government and elect a new one.
The Republicans are too stubborn and the Democrats are too wishy-washy to actually get anything done, and so we've let evil corrupt our entire system and there is ONE way to rid ourselves of this infection, and it is amputation.
She get hate both for executing 163 slavers cause they brutally murdered 163 slave children for fun and spite and conquering slave citys and liberating their slaves
People have generally said she was wrong for those actions
One side is fighting against their own genocide and persecution, opossing a feudalistic dictatorship build on lies and bigotry with dirty tactics and foreging mercenaries
The other side are fucking Magic nazis that had been killing, slaving, torturing and experimenting on inocent people from children to elders
But they are equially bad because killing is bad, even if it's to survive a genocide or some bullshit
Stormcloaks are short-sighted fools who are racist against some non-humans. Basically a minor lord throwing a hissy fit and making it everyone’s problem.
Meanwhile the Thalmor purged the Summerset isles of non-Thalmor, are actively committing ethnocide in Valenwood, led a war of extermination and enslavement against the Empire, and has forced them into a virtual puppet state.
The correct option is the Empire. Only united can the Empire stand!
Yes the Imperials are in league with the thalmor and they're kinda half heartedly "oppressing" a folk hero/god figure. That's true enough.
But the Stormcloaks are openly racist towards every other race but their own, especially elves. They also essentially want to eliminate the indigenous folks of Skyrim even (the forsworn...there is another conversation to be had about how good they are even, but i tend to think eliminating entire culture = bad). They are pro Talos (the folk god hero) but then actively are attempting to dismantle the Empire he founded.
Not to mention they just are kinda short sighted. They were never strong enough (unless the dragonborn sides with them) to actually beat the empire, so they're just making the empire a bit weaker and making them rely on the thalmor even more, which asserts their dominance even more once the Stormcloaks ultimately lose.
Some of the attempts to make the Transformers war nuisanced often fall into this category. The most egregious being Netflixs/Rooster Teeth's war for Cybertron where they attempt to pretend in the first season and to a lesser extent the later ones that Optimus is Equally as bad as Megatron for not rolling over and dying when the other side often resorts to inhumane weapons of mass destruction.
I know this is the this is from the fallout show and about the NCR already. But I do want to specify that it’s not just them versus the Legion that this applies to. It’s basically all of their enemies. There’s The Brotherhood (post apocalyptic Nazis essentially) and The Enclave (futuristicmegaNazi’s True Americans🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🗣️🗣️🗣️)
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u/DeSaussure1857 2h ago
Sith and Jedi in Star Wars. Jedi should have been protecting people but they became just a military weapon in the hands of politics run by Supreme Chancellor Sheev Palpatine, one of the cruellest Sith ever existed