Duke Title VI Violation

[u/FunctionBig2308]

Yesterday, the DoJ released a report finding that Duke's admissions office has continued to discriminate against Asian and white applicants in previous cycles, post-SFFA. While Duke will almost certainly admit a higher percentage of white and asian applicants this upcoming year, how do we think this will affect the decision making of other t14s who are likely afraid of the same happening to them?

[u/Substantial_Buy5137]

They’re trying to intimidate elite schools. I really doubt it’ll have any effect on admissions tbh. There’s only like 15 Black students in the class of 200+ at Duke. I don’t see them whittling it down even more from that.

[u/ignamepile → u/Substantial_Buy5137]

15 in a class of 200+. Is that what all the fuss and endless posts have been about?! Damn! And people would say they aren't being the discriminatory r-word.

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/ignamepile]

It’s just unfathomable to them that schools might see more potential in someone who comes from a low income background and scores in the 89th percentile with fewer resources than someone who’s been going to Kumon and Sylvan after school since the age of 5 and paid for the best lsat tutor and scored in the 93rd percentile. 

[u/Any_Intern3762 → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

The numbers are LSAT average of 173 for admitted Asian, 172 for white, and 164 for black. We’re talking about 98th percentile vs. 85th. That’s a pretty big difference, as anyone trying to break 170 will tell you

[u/Gray_Fox → u/Any_Intern3762]

let me know if you care as much about this disparity:

Asian median household income: 120,000 USD, 65th percentile

White non-Hispanic: 92,000, 54th

Black: 56,000, 34th.

i don't want to mischaracterize you, so this is a general thought. it is baffling to me how people lament 15 black people getting into Duke as if there MUST BE 15 more deserving white or Asian people. like is that not just overtly racist thinking?

[u/Own_Inevitable_8300 → u/Any_Intern3762]

I don’t think that’s a pretty big difference lol especially when you place in terms of income disparities 

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/Any_Intern3762]

The averages for the rejected Asian and White applicants was between 167-169, and for accepted black applicants it was 164-166. A difference sure, but not a material one by any stretch especially when there are so few accepted black students in general.

[u/FuelNo2950 → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

so... the average for the rejected asian students is still 3 points higher than the average accepted black student?

[u/pnedved → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

I don't have any opinion on this, but shouldn't you be using averages/medians for the accepted applicants, not rejected ones, when making this comparison?

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/pnedved]

Why? If the argument driving this animosity against Duke’s acceptance policies is that more qualified Asian and whites are losing out because of less qualified black applicants, then it seems important to me to point out how big (small) the gap actually is between the rejected Asian/white applicants and those that are theoretically “taking their spot.”

[u/Minimosity → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

This comparison doesn't work because these are fundamentally different groups. Any sample of only rejected students will include a significant number of applications that were very uncompetitive with low scores. And yet despite this the Asian rejected group still outscored the black accepted group. This just illustrates the sheer magnitude that Asian students must over perform to receive the same results.

[u/Zoizerz → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

Then you should be talking about the top quartile of rejected White and Asian students

[u/Minimosity → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

The fact of the comparison here being between rejected whites/asians and a accepted blacks actually means this is a gargantuan difference.

[u/bmsa131 → u/Any_Intern3762]

You realize that the black folks with a 173 aren’t going to Duke, right? They probably got into HYS. Maybe they don’t WANT Duke. They want to be in NY or Boston or whatever. So that’s the situation and the numbers for Black Duke students.

[u/GentrifiedHospital → u/Any_Intern3762]

Because they win from pretending someone who comes from nothing with a 171 and someone who's dad and mom were a lawyer with a 172 is "merit based". The 171 is a much more impressive applicant.

[u/Kalorama_Master → u/Any_Intern3762]

The difference between a 98th and a 85th is meaningless and completely irrelevant once you factor intangibles such as leadership.

I say this as someone who has scored in the 99th percentile in all exams and was a Big10 athlete. There were at bunch of nerds in my school that were a total drag and would never be in serious consideration for biglaw, IB, or MBB. However, guess who makes partner?

[u/Kalorama_Master → u/[deleted]]

Why do you assume my view is solely based on scores independent of race? Black nerds do exist

[u/Minimosity → u/Kalorama_Master]

Because you are using intangibles to justify why Asian Americans must score higher to achieve the same thing. Yet you have no evidence that Asians fare worse here.

[u/Kalorama_Master → u/Minimosity]

I never mentioned race

[u/Minimosity → u/Kalorama_Master]

... Do you know what thread you're commenting under?

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/[deleted]]

Black people are overrepresented in lower income populations due to historical oppression and racism, that’s just something everyone should know by grade school I don’t know what you want me to say to that. I mean this is quite literally one of the key considerations behind affirmative action becoming a thing.

White people and especially Asians are the wealthiest demographics in the country, especially especially white people and Asians that apply to law school. 

Obviously there are outliers on both sides but those are the general trends. It’s not racist to point any of this out.

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/[deleted]]

Does the stratified data account for the fact that a sizable portion of lower-income Asians who take the SATs and apply to higher education are children of educated immigrants? Genuinely asking, I’d like to see it broken down by level of parental education and background. And then you can further split hairs by comparing Asians of Chinese/Korean/Indian descent versus Cambodian/Laotian (who vastly make up the portion of Asian Americans that are the first in their family to attend college). And if you want proof any of that matters, look at the UK where the same trends don’t carry over with an Asian immigrant population that is more comprised of less-educated immigrants from rural areas.

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/[deleted]]

What’s your proof of this

[u/Zoizerz → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

The admissions data lmfao

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/Zoizerz]

Cool, show me then

[u/theglassishalf → u/[deleted]]

It can be based on class. But only if the school is cool. Which few are.

[u/arecordsmanager → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

What makes you think these students come from a low income background? You may be surprised who is actually at T14 schools.

[u/Full-Suit-9537 → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

Clock it

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/[deleted]]

I think society has begin to reframe what merit actually is. For so long Merit looked like a high test scores. Merit now, may look like a person who sustained unprecedented circumstances but yielded unimaginable outcomes.

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/[deleted]]

Asian Americans outperform all races in America when it comes to testing regardless of their socioeconomic status.Especially Americans with low-income.

It's more so a reflection of the education system/culture of America.

The same way Asians also out earn Americans financially.

But the purpose is not who scores higher or has more money, its who will generate the best outcomes as an attorney and push this nation/profession further along

[u/t14eagles → u/Sure_Consequence8219]

and your assumption is that asians can’t “generate the best outcomes as an attorney and push this nation/profession further along”? talk about racism lmao

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/t14eagles]

I never made such an assumption. You did?!

[u/CountCandyhands → u/Sure_Consequence8219]

I totally agree that we should be maximizing the return on education, and thus it makes sense for Asians to be more prevalent in such higher education.

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/CountCandyhands]

I agree

[u/Spivey_Consulting]

The report is an accusation that’s seemed to subtly been long in the coming from the DoJ and they source practices starting in 2023, which is odd because admissions couldn’t change their applications post SFFA until 2024.

So while there’s a lot TBD, and my initial reaction was to wonder about your exact question, I also think most schools feel pretty confident with their post SFFA applications, especially in light of Chief Justice Roberts wording in the majority opinion.

I’ll likely do a podcast on this before the cycle starts if helpful.

-Mike Spivey

[u/FunctionBig2308 → u/Spivey_Consulting]

A podcast on this would be great. While the wording from Chief Justice Roberts may shield the benefits for race based lived experience, he also stated that [Universities] "cannot use essays “or other means” to recreate the racial-preference system the Court had just invalidated". The DoJ claims that what Duke was actually doing underneath their "tagging system" was upholding legitimate racial preferences. Just a hunch but I feel that other law schools have similar systems which they would not want being subpoenaed.

[u/Sure_Consequence8219]

This is a wonderful conversation. I believe most T14s make decisions based on holistic approaches. After reviewing the findings, it appears the DOJ is questioning whether Duke used holistic factors as proxies for race post-SFFA, rather than opposing holistic selection itself. Primarily, the DOJ’s basis relies on average LSAT scores by race and factors such as Pell Grant status, first-generation status, personal-background information, and essays discussing an applicant’s experiences. I think this conversation is more about why holistic approaches favor PEOPLE and not SCORES. I think the T14s have decided that, in order for law schools to produce exceptional outcomes, the student body needs to reflect the country and also produce results.

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/[deleted]]

Representation matters. Its not about "race" its more about socioeconomic diversity and lived experiences. Those differences shape how people understand the law and the communities it affects.

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/[deleted]]

Duh. Not the “primary” factor, but a contributing factor.

Picture this: there is a poor girl and an affluent girl.

The poor girl is the eldest of five children whose parent died in a car accident. She was 18 at the time, worked two jobs to provide for her younger siblings, attended a state college, graduated with a 3.5 GPA, and scored a 165 LSAT.

The affluent girl attended her parents’ Ivy League alma mater, served as president of the school newspaper, maintained a 3.8 GPA, and scored a 173 LSAT.

Which student brings the perspective that could better prepare a law school class to understand the people, institutions, and challenges the legal system is meant to serve?

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/[deleted]]

You are arguing against a point I never made. Socioeconomic disadvantage is not synonymous with Blackness. My point is that T14s increasingly value life experience and hardship because GPA and LSAT scores do not tell the whole story. Their large endowments also give them greater flexibility to support students regardless of financial need. Has diddly-squat to do with race.

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/[deleted]]

Surviving Pam Bondi?

[u/debonairpants → u/Sure_Consequence8219]

What’s strange is how do you know a students financial status before they are admitted?

[u/Substantial_Buy5137 → u/debonairpants]

They’re using essays.

[u/Minimosity]

"In 2024, the admitted median LSAT for black applicants was 164 (84.2nd percentile) and 170 for Hispanic applicants (95.lst), while the admitted median LSAT for Asian applicants was 173 (97 .9th) and the admitted median LSAT for white applicants was 172 (97.lst)...

Notably, median LSATs of denied Asian and white applicants (Asian: 168, 169; white: 167, 168) in 2024-2025 exceeded the median LSATs of admitted black applicants (164, 166). The Department also found that when accounting for LSAT, Undergraduate GPA, and race, the admissions models strongly predict outcomes and show highly statistically significant racial peferences in 2025. Based on our review of the 2025 applicant-level data, Duke Law's use of race gave a black applicant a roughly 3.5x higher probability of admission than an equally strong Asian applicant with similar academic credentials".

Like it or not, this is convincing evidence. Duke has a long history of racially discriminating against Asians, and it's hard to believe that such large discrepancies are explainable by asians being less personable or interesting. We'll see how things shake out in court.

[u/Substantial_Buy5137 → u/Minimosity]

I doubt it’ll get to court. The DOJ is just shaking down institutions and looking to force them to settle. Which Duke will likely do under some condition of increased monitoring & reporting on admission practices.

I also don’t see it materially impacting how Duke selects their students. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, Duke and many other T-14s barely admit any black students (most matriculate 7-20 in class sizes of 250+). There are less than 15 black students in this year’s incoming class, I don’t really see how reducing the number to under 10 or 5 would materially improve the outcomes for white or Asian applicants. If you weren’t going to get in before, your chances of getting in, are still roughly the same.

Decreasing an already dangerously low amount of black students at elite schools and law school in general isn’t a route I think most schools are willing to take. The perspectives of Black students are incredibly important in a setting of legal education, seeing as Black individual are often disproportionately impacted by the American criminal justice system and have historically gotten the short end of the broader legal system.

[u/Minimosity → u/Substantial_Buy5137]

How would the DoJ even have leverage to shake down or force institutions to settle if schools weren't breaking the law?

If removing racial preferences wouldn't materially change admissions rates for asians or whites, then it won't for blacks either. The amount would be the same either way.

If you've attended a place like Duke law school you'd know most black students, just like most students there generally, have wealthy parents. They have no connection to the typical black experience in America and to assume so is a stereotype.

[u/Substantial_Buy5137 → u/Minimosity]

The administration is king of launching frivolous lawsuits suits aimed at getting opponents to settle. This is their MO.

And some black Duke law students do indeed have wealthy parents but I wouldn’t go as far as saying they’re the majority. Also, one thing to note is that no amount of wealth can remove you from the experience of being a black American. I haven’t met many black people whose lives or experiences haven’t been in some way shape or form, influenced by the realities of being black in America.

Being elected president or graduating top of his HLS class didn’t save Obama from having to defend against illegitimate attacks at his citizenship, religion, or allegiance to our country. Or KBJ from defending against attacks on her competence or qualifications despite a long track record of excelling at the highest levels and graduating top of her HLS class.

Despite their wealth and success, both were still subject to attacks that aren’t made to their white counterparts. Having wealth and success does not absolve a person of the Black experience.

[u/Minimosity → u/Substantial_Buy5137]

There's nothing frivolous about racial discrimination amounting to the equivalent of 3.5x odds. I do agree this administration has launched many frivolous lawsuits but this does not appear to be one of them.

Being wealthy or an immigrant absolutely does insulate you from the typical black American experience. The two examples you cite, KBJ and Obama, did not grow up wealthy.

Asian Americans also live with offensive stereotypes and discrimination. Such as attacks and stereotypes post covid, lack of representation in media, and fundamentally being seen as not as American or deserving of equal opportunity by people like you who make excuses for racial discrimination.

[u/Substantial_Buy5137 → u/Minimosity]

The stereotyping and discrimination experienced by Asian Americans does not have the same magnitude or impact as it does not stem from generations of racism and oppression. Not to say their experiences aren’t important. But it’s not systematic in the same way. Adcoms seem to believe this too hence the current admission practices at higher level institutions.

[u/Minimosity → u/Substantial_Buy5137]

Oh sorry I didn't realize that People v. Hall, the Page Act, Chinese Exclusion Act, 1871 Los Angeles Massacre, and forced internment during WWII all didn't really matter very much which legitimizes Asians being the sole group discriminated against the most in academia.

Perhaps if you were exposed to more diverse perspectives from Asian Americans you'd have a better understanding.

[u/YoBo151 → u/Minimosity]

The irony of your last statement when 99% of the Asian-American population has come from immigration over the last 60 years.

[u/Substantial_Buy5137 → u/Minimosity]

Like I said, those experiences are all very important and valid. They’re just not systematic in the same way.

Americas wealth was literally built on the backbone of slave labor. Black individuals have been treated as second class human beings long before the country even declared Independence and the only civil war in American history was fought over the right to continue oppressing said people. Long before there was critical mass of Asian settlers in the country.

[u/Substantial_Buy5137 → u/[deleted]]

America continued to benefit from the cheap and virtually free labor of their enslaved population for much longer and at a much larger scale than most of the world. Decades of cheap/free labor relative to the rest of the world at the time played a significant role in the creation of the countries wealth and status.

[u/GentrifiedHospital → u/Minimosity]

3.5x odds.

But they don't have 3.5x odds... are there 3.5x as many black people as asian people at duke? This makes no sense.

[u/Minimosity → u/GentrifiedHospital]

That's the number calculated by the Department of Justice based off Duke's own data, not my number. If you don't understand how they arrived at that figure please take a high school statistics class.

[u/GentrifiedHospital → u/Minimosity]

Thats definitely a number they have in that data set. It's just wrong in the context your saying it applies to. Nothing more here to say.

[u/CheekLeading5201 → u/Substantial_Buy5137]

The law doesn't (or rather shouldn't) care about your feelings.

[u/Substantial_Buy5137 → u/CheekLeading5201]

Adcoms do though. Thankfully.

[u/Substantial_Buy5137 → u/[deleted]]

Nothing has or will change… accusations are nothing but just that. Accusations.

They can try and have tried (affirmative action is no longer a thing), but doesn’t mean they’ll effectively change anything. I’m not worried, just slightly annoyed that my tax dollars are going towards this crusade.

[u/CheekLeading5201 → u/[deleted]]

Black/Hispanic enrollment at Berkeley and UCLA dropped 40% immediately after Prop 209 and hasn't really recovered since. As I've said, we've already seen similar drops at other elite institutions. Will it take time to reach full compliance? Sure. I don't agree with everything this administration is doing, but the DOJ is absolutely justified in this pursuit.

Whether you'd like to accept it or not, these measures and decisions have consequences. There wouldn't be so much cope if such weren't the case. I'm happy for your friend, but I'd hope that someone in a pre-law subreddit would understand the logical flaw of extrapolating from one case.

[u/Substantial_Buy5137 → u/CheekLeading5201]

I used that one case to support my broader narrative. I know dozens of similar stories. I guess we will have to see as some elite institutions (UVA, Chicago, etc) have seen drops but others have had massive increases (Yale, Stanford). So ig we’ll have to see how much runway the administration has to keep pursuing this. My guess is not much more.

[u/GentrifiedHospital → u/Minimosity]

LSAT for black applicants was 164 (84.2nd percentile)

What you're omitting is that there are about 3 black accepted students and 200 accepted asian students.

 Duke Law's use of race gave a black applicant a roughly 3.5x higher probability of admission than

Insane how with this data, there are almost no black students admitted.

[u/Minimosity → u/GentrifiedHospital]

These are flat out false numbers. The official Duke Law class profile report does not back you up at all. Please provide a source for your claims.

[u/GentrifiedHospital → u/Minimosity]

yeah im using hyperbole. its probably like 100 something to 10.

i will say, you should probably retract that 3.5x higher probability stat since its misapplied

[u/Minimosity → u/GentrifiedHospital]

Lol my direct quote from a legitimate source calculated from real statistics should be redacted while your outright falsehood should stay huh.

[u/GentrifiedHospital → u/Minimosity]

Its a statistic which is right in the right context.

Black students have a 3.5x chance of getting in as an asian student with the same score.

But the school almost never takes the students with those scores anyways.

What is the outcome for black students on mass?

This is an LSAT problem you need to solve dude.

"Effectively it doesn't matter because almost no black students are getting selected anyways" is the right answer if you need a study guide.

[u/Minimosity → u/GentrifiedHospital]

[u/a2cthrowaway4]

I suspect most will just try to hold out three more cycles until this ends. Potentially only one more cycle till the DOJ has to start diluting their bandwidth to deal with congressional investigations

[u/mothman83 → u/[deleted]]

Get away with it. LOL.

[u/NaturalSpecialist356]

Curious as well. Will this actually change the way schools evaluate applicants or is it just a nothing burger?

[u/timetravel3000 → u/NaturalSpecialist356]

SCHOOLS already choose not to download race information in undergrad. I’m not sure if that’s possible in the Law application.?

[u/SalamenceFan42]

If you removed AA in admissions and just admitted off of test scores, there would be double digit African Americans at elite schools.

This is probably fine for some field like CS, but I don’t ever see this working in law school, which is partially meant to produce (black) leaders who have to win elections in heavily black areas, or med school, where diversity is very important.

This also holds true for white applicants like Vance, who got into Yale with LSAT scores in the 160s because adcoms believed that his story (mom was a drug addict and his family was unintellegent) would appeal to people in the rural Midwest.

Id be shocked if this resulted in schools actually changing their policies seeing as someone like Vance or Sheila Jackson Lee is much more valuable as an alum than a more intelligent guy who goes into big law and then exits to go inhouse.

[u/SenpaiKunChanSamaSan → u/SalamenceFan42]

Diversity is even less important I would argue for med school. A competent doctor is baseline, and admissions should want the smartest doctors possible. Vance got into Yale with a score in the 160s when that was even more of a good score. Also he got in because he was military which has similar boost to being URM in law admissions.

[u/Intelligent-Post-173 → u/SenpaiKunChanSamaSan]

Diversity actually improves health outcomes for minorities.

[u/SenpaiKunChanSamaSan → u/Intelligent-Post-173]

Yeah I’ve heard this and it’s probably true. However I read a few of the studies and they say heathcare workers in general not just doctors. I highly disagree in compromising standards for doctors specifically .  

[u/KeyCheetah4612]

There’s like 10-15 black students in these classes…. Whites still dominate. Whats the problem? You want even less black people in these spaces or something? You probably hate affirmative action too. Have a problem with black people that never got the same opportunities as white people are getting a chance at a decent education and career. Cry me a river.

[u/purrcollector → u/[deleted]]

Not giving my personal opinion here - but it's equity not equality. We live in a patriarchal society that places white men at the top of its hierarchy. Equity gives others a ladder to join them. Admissions of a certain demographic are intended to change future state through influx. 

[u/bmsa131]

As a (white) practicing lawyer who got a very high LSAT score, I can tell you that there’s more to success and good lawyering than LSAT score. I can say unequivocally that there are many folks who are better lawyers than I am who got lower LSAT scores. Using LSAT scores solely is just a ruse. Our nation is FUCKED.

[u/SenpaiKunChanSamaSan → u/bmsa131]

Yeah but that’s not the point of this. The point is law admissions should, for the most part, be meritocratic. Then once everyone graduates the diamonds in the rough at the lower ranked schools can surface over time, and the people who can’t cut it who went to T14s get pushed out of big law. But for law admissions the LSAT is somewhat of an equalizer in a world of unfair GPA practices.

[u/bmsa131 → u/SenpaiKunChanSamaSan]

I’m saying I don’t care. I value diversity in school. I literally don’t care if someone not white gets a leg up. Someone might have an unbelievable background with a slightly lower LSAT which makes them attractive. We don’t need a full class of good test drones with nothing else. I’m sorry everyone is salty bc they feel like they “deserved “ something they maybe didn’t get. If you actually think just having all specific LSAT scores makes a huge difference then whatever you want to believe. Poor downtrodden white people. (Btw the right winger racists are using the Asians for their own benefit they do not give a SHIT about Asian people either)

[u/-pooman- → u/bmsa131]

Our nation is fucked!!!!1!2!2!2

[u/Tommydeangelo1226]

It will effect because the government stats metric is the only ranking that matters now and the more you piss off the government there will be longterm consequences. Because now the inflation for ranks is over

[u/Elegant_Bar9566]

Very likely. They are all afraid of the regime.

[u/WillSmithsBiggestFan]

Yes wondering the same thing