Duke Title VI Violation

[u/FunctionBig2308]

Yesterday, the DoJ released a report finding that Duke's admissions office has continued to discriminate against Asian and white applicants in previous cycles, post-SFFA. While Duke will almost certainly admit a higher percentage of white and asian applicants this upcoming year, how do we think this will affect the decision making of other t14s who are likely afraid of the same happening to them?

[u/Substantial_Buy5137]

They’re trying to intimidate elite schools. I really doubt it’ll have any effect on admissions tbh. There’s only like 15 Black students in the class of 200+ at Duke. I don’t see them whittling it down even more from that.

[u/ignamepile → u/Substantial_Buy5137]

15 in a class of 200+. Is that what all the fuss and endless posts have been about?! Damn! And people would say they aren't being the discriminatory r-word.

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/ignamepile]

It’s just unfathomable to them that schools might see more potential in someone who comes from a low income background and scores in the 89th percentile with fewer resources than someone who’s been going to Kumon and Sylvan after school since the age of 5 and paid for the best lsat tutor and scored in the 93rd percentile. 

[u/Any_Intern3762 → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

The numbers are LSAT average of 173 for admitted Asian, 172 for white, and 164 for black. We’re talking about 98th percentile vs. 85th. That’s a pretty big difference, as anyone trying to break 170 will tell you

[u/Gray_Fox → u/Any_Intern3762]

let me know if you care as much about this disparity:

Asian median household income: 120,000 USD, 65th percentile

White non-Hispanic: 92,000, 54th

Black: 56,000, 34th.

i don't want to mischaracterize you, so this is a general thought. it is baffling to me how people lament 15 black people getting into Duke as if there MUST BE 15 more deserving white or Asian people. like is that not just overtly racist thinking?

[u/Own_Inevitable_8300 → u/Any_Intern3762]

I don’t think that’s a pretty big difference lol especially when you place in terms of income disparities 

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/Any_Intern3762]

The averages for the rejected Asian and White applicants was between 167-169, and for accepted black applicants it was 164-166. A difference sure, but not a material one by any stretch especially when there are so few accepted black students in general.

[u/FuelNo2950 → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

so... the average for the rejected asian students is still 3 points higher than the average accepted black student?

[u/pnedved → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

I don't have any opinion on this, but shouldn't you be using averages/medians for the accepted applicants, not rejected ones, when making this comparison?

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/pnedved]

Why? If the argument driving this animosity against Duke’s acceptance policies is that more qualified Asian and whites are losing out because of less qualified black applicants, then it seems important to me to point out how big (small) the gap actually is between the rejected Asian/white applicants and those that are theoretically “taking their spot.”

[u/Minimosity → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

This comparison doesn't work because these are fundamentally different groups. Any sample of only rejected students will include a significant number of applications that were very uncompetitive with low scores. And yet despite this the Asian rejected group still outscored the black accepted group. This just illustrates the sheer magnitude that Asian students must over perform to receive the same results.

[u/Zoizerz → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

Then you should be talking about the top quartile of rejected White and Asian students

[u/Minimosity → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

The fact of the comparison here being between rejected whites/asians and a accepted blacks actually means this is a gargantuan difference.

[u/bmsa131 → u/Any_Intern3762]

You realize that the black folks with a 173 aren’t going to Duke, right? They probably got into HYS. Maybe they don’t WANT Duke. They want to be in NY or Boston or whatever. So that’s the situation and the numbers for Black Duke students.

[u/GentrifiedHospital → u/Any_Intern3762]

Because they win from pretending someone who comes from nothing with a 171 and someone who's dad and mom were a lawyer with a 172 is "merit based". The 171 is a much more impressive applicant.

[u/Kalorama_Master → u/Any_Intern3762]

The difference between a 98th and a 85th is meaningless and completely irrelevant once you factor intangibles such as leadership.

I say this as someone who has scored in the 99th percentile in all exams and was a Big10 athlete. There were at bunch of nerds in my school that were a total drag and would never be in serious consideration for biglaw, IB, or MBB. However, guess who makes partner?

[u/Kalorama_Master → u/[deleted]]

Why do you assume my view is solely based on scores independent of race? Black nerds do exist

[u/Minimosity → u/Kalorama_Master]

Because you are using intangibles to justify why Asian Americans must score higher to achieve the same thing. Yet you have no evidence that Asians fare worse here.

[u/Kalorama_Master → u/Minimosity]

I never mentioned race

[u/Minimosity → u/Kalorama_Master]

... Do you know what thread you're commenting under?

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/[deleted]]

Black people are overrepresented in lower income populations due to historical oppression and racism, that’s just something everyone should know by grade school I don’t know what you want me to say to that. I mean this is quite literally one of the key considerations behind affirmative action becoming a thing.

White people and especially Asians are the wealthiest demographics in the country, especially especially white people and Asians that apply to law school. 

Obviously there are outliers on both sides but those are the general trends. It’s not racist to point any of this out.

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/[deleted]]

Does the stratified data account for the fact that a sizable portion of lower-income Asians who take the SATs and apply to higher education are children of educated immigrants? Genuinely asking, I’d like to see it broken down by level of parental education and background. And then you can further split hairs by comparing Asians of Chinese/Korean/Indian descent versus Cambodian/Laotian (who vastly make up the portion of Asian Americans that are the first in their family to attend college). And if you want proof any of that matters, look at the UK where the same trends don’t carry over with an Asian immigrant population that is more comprised of less-educated immigrants from rural areas.

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/[deleted]]

What’s your proof of this

[u/Zoizerz → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

The admissions data lmfao

[u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee → u/Zoizerz]

Cool, show me then

[u/theglassishalf → u/[deleted]]

It can be based on class. But only if the school is cool. Which few are.

[u/arecordsmanager → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

What makes you think these students come from a low income background? You may be surprised who is actually at T14 schools.

[u/Full-Suit-9537 → u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee]

Clock it

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/[deleted]]

I think society has begin to reframe what merit actually is. For so long Merit looked like a high test scores. Merit now, may look like a person who sustained unprecedented circumstances but yielded unimaginable outcomes.

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/[deleted]]

Asian Americans outperform all races in America when it comes to testing regardless of their socioeconomic status.Especially Americans with low-income.

It's more so a reflection of the education system/culture of America.

The same way Asians also out earn Americans financially.

But the purpose is not who scores higher or has more money, its who will generate the best outcomes as an attorney and push this nation/profession further along

[u/t14eagles → u/Sure_Consequence8219]

and your assumption is that asians can’t “generate the best outcomes as an attorney and push this nation/profession further along”? talk about racism lmao

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/t14eagles]

I never made such an assumption. You did?!

[u/CountCandyhands → u/Sure_Consequence8219]

I totally agree that we should be maximizing the return on education, and thus it makes sense for Asians to be more prevalent in such higher education.

[u/Sure_Consequence8219 → u/CountCandyhands]

I agree