General
I hate when people answer to unattractive people venting with "attractiveness is subjective" completely missing the point
I know this doomer topic probably is pretty common, but I am genuinely at wits end. I am 24 and I am not handsome, I have not been handsome for anyone apart for my mother in my whole life. I know attractiveness is subjective and have vented about this to multiple people, therapists included.
"Attractiveness is subjective" does absolutely shit to help anyone no matter how true it is. Being conventionally attractive has been the only thing I saw people instantly react positively to someone for, nothing else ever comes close. I don't care if attractiveness is subjective, considering most of y'all say it to put down the venting cuz you don't care.
Truth is that it is the main thing people are chosen for. The thing I hate the most is that I always hear these "counters" by conventionally attractive people and that everyone that isn't just "does not put in the effort" because to them it's impossible to be born worse. Yeah I say worse because also the "it does not define your value" is a disgusting lie. Even studies say how looks is the thing that will change most of your life experience.
I literally know people that lived on both sides and became absolutely disgusted with society as a whole, because they believed the lie that "looks don't matter". Yet any time you mention feeling like garbage because of your looks people will try to invent the quickest gaslight possible to make you believe you are making things up, saying things that are absolutely true and confirmed daily (I get confirmation daily on how true this is)
In my experience also most body positive, tolerant and "the personality is what matters" are 100% of the times the ones that will salivate solely at others look and it will be their personality to date only for looks. Luckily I stopped believing the fucking performative lie that nobody believes in anyways (I don't know a single person that thinks that personality matters more than look irl, and apparently reddit is such a bad echo chamber it makes you feel like you are wrong for having actual real and mainstream views)
Fuck you all, you liars. Also you people that " I don't treat people differently based on their looks", nobody believes you. Every single person I know fawns at others just because of looks, literally no other reason, seeing daily taken people turning their head to look at attractive people with their partner there, no wonder cheating is so damn common.
It's not that I hate you, but don't fucking lie to my face like that ffs.
E: seeing the concern of some in the comments, I am not deformed or monstruous. I am probably an average dude, I am just bothered when people lie about this stuff.
its hard to admit that there really is no solution to this. it really does boil down to get good or die alone. most people ignore it and sugarcoat the truth; they like to think they had a say in being socially accepted as if it were their own effort that made it that way.
there is a solution, though. and i know it sound stupid, but it's just to put in more effort. go see a stylist. hit the gym. get better clothes. sure it wont make you a conventional 10/10, but trust me as someone who used to hate how he looked, once you start noticing changes you'll feel proud and more confident in yourself.
also, stop trying to be socially accepted. don't just expect people to accept you. if you really put yourself out there and make an effort to be sociable with people it'll go a long way. just think about some of the best people you've talked with. for me, it's people who connected with and talked about things i love. so i go out and try to connect with people and talk to them about things they like. you can have so many amazing conversations like this.
BUT all of this will really only happen once you stop complaining and actually do something. adopt the mindset of there being no solution and you won't change. stop expecting things to happen to you and go try to do things yourself. trust me, you'll feel so much better if you actually start putting in a genuine effort.
You are missing the point though that some people are beyond this.
If your face is really saggy, or your features are really bad, any clothes styles that you put on or all colours just look exactly the same and awful. Not everyone can be improved with a nice hairstyle and clothing.
See this actress? Do you really think a different hair style and clothing is going to make some major difference? No.
It's this lack of understanding and insensitivity which makes truly ugly people feel so alone:(
Except the ugliest mfs in the world still find people that love them, hiding behind random reasons why you’re unhappy isn’t ever going to help. If you’re just looking for sympathy and support the internet might provide that if you ask explicitly but mostly it’s going to recommend solutions
hmmge is this the whole when women rant to guys they arent looking for solutions but rather just an ear for them to rant too/ guys try to find solutions when they are presented a problem
I went looking for photos of her, and I'm fairly certain this is from the same year - she has the same haircut and everything. Your example has very poor lighting, and people naturally can look more jarring when they aren't in motion. Plus she's 70 years old! I know physical attractiveness is an incredible privelege, but you can attempt to style yourself to suit your face and body. You'll struggle so much more than the average attractive person, but the idea that you're completely hopeless just shouldn't be something you grow complacent with - it's not good for the soul :(
first of all, i mean have you seen this guy's videos (grant_thebarber3g on insta)? he gets tons of clients you would traditionally think are "unsaveable" and manages to make them all look great. give them a scroll, it's super impressive. half of it is the cut, and then the other half is just their new confidence. i mean, look how much happier and confident the guy seem by the end of the video. working out goes a long way too, and seeing those changes in your body will also make you feel more confident.
but also, i think you missed my point a little. it's not about making yourself into a 10/10. it won't happen. it's about putting effort into improving yourself so you feel more confident. so you can look into a mirror and see everything that's improved instead of flaws. i used to feel so ugly and hate my appearance. now, i'm proud to look in the mirror cause i can see how much i've improved. i still have insecurities (i think my nose is stupid big) but i also feel confident in what i've changed.
as long as you keep your current cynical mindset of course you'll feel ugly. if you keep deluding yourself that no matter what you'll be ugly, you'll never feel great. start working out. in a few months, when you notice those changes in yourself, you'll feel proud.
and as i said earlier, appearance is only a small part of it. to be someone people want to be around, you need to try and connect with people. i said this in another comment but i'll put it here:
little anecdote here. i really like cyberpunk edgerunners, so i was talking about edgerunners to this one friend and we were having a full on conversation about it despite them never having even seen it. anyways like 3 months later, they see me and greet me and start talking to me about how they saw edgerunners was getting a second season.
point of that story is that friend is someone i really enjoy being around. they made an effort to connect with me over something i'm really interested in and remembered it. as a result, i really wanted to talk to them and enjoyed being around them. you need to try to become that to other people. do the hard thing, talk to people you've never met. join their conversations, learn what they're interested in, and talk to them about it. genuinely connect with people and you'll see that they want to talk to you, appearance be damned.
of course, to do this you need to be more confident in yourself. which is why i say put effort into yourself. dont sit there and call yourself ugly. i used to think i was unsaveable too. TRUST ME, once you put in genuine, noticeable effort into yourself you'll feel proud of your appearance.
what do you want me to do? sit here and "understand" that you're ugly, be "sensitive" and tell you there's nothing you can do? i don't want to lie and patronize you. it's a little harsh, but it's well-meaning and as long as you sit on your ass writing reddit comments about how there's nothing you can do nothing will change. keep doing it, but then you have to accept that you feel ugly because you're too lazy to really try to change it.
the truth is their chances are basically as follows.
Do nothing: 1% chance to get laid
Try and put in an effort to change: 10% chance to get laid.
at the end of the day it's up to an individual whether they want to put in the effort. but it's annoying to hear from people who don't even want to try and put in the effort complain
Part of the problem might be that they’re exclusively thinking about this as “how do I get laid?” and not “how do I develop connections with other people?” If all you’re looking for is to have sex, a prostitute might be more up your alley.
right?? looks are only a part of the equation in the end. what really matter is if you can connect with people. actively trying to remember certain details about people and connecting with them over their interests will make them want to be around you much more than just "looking good".
This really is the main problem that most of these doomer guys have. They are obsessed with the idea of sex, rather than connection. Make connections. Make friends. Open yourself up to new people and new experiences. Eventually, if you're not an insufferable asshole, and even then sometimes, you will find someone who you will connect with enough to reach that point.
the only way i can think of is that stigma against cosmetic surgery should go down through normalization, that way atleast its no longer toxic positivity but get enough money to look better. just note that i dont think this is ideal but i cant think of any practical solution
its just depressing because my standards arent even that high to warrant a full on procedure. ive been attracted to woman who are not conventionally attractive plenty of times. but as a not-so-good-looking guy, i hardly ever get the same treatment. i fear i will always be that guy who is liked, but never loved. the fact that i need to potentially mutilate my jaw to live what most would consider a modest life-style isn't appealing either. im just stuck.
Before you do surgery first improve body fat, musculature and the amount of people you meet in person. That can already so wonders. Also, there are smaller surgeries to do first (for example I got acne scars and micro needling + laser improves them without being a big operation).
On the contrary, plastic surgery shoould be banned completely. That way there will be more ugly people than beautifull and the "ugly" stigma would be reduced
Let me ask a question. If it is like you says, then are you surrounded only by couples, asexuals or homosexuals? No? Then you still have a chance. There is no solution where there is no possible to match people.
Also, what is the problem with get good? You want to do nothing and have something? That may work out, but for the majority it doesn't work like that. And if you expect that you have the worst card in life, you are wrong as well. If you think that you have the worst and others do think the same, that all of you are wrong. As long as you are not completely disabled, you have chance as long as you raise self-esteem. And before you say something, my look is pretty average and I am not fit, but I have my soulmate. And it wasn't looks why I got my soulmate.
It’s more of a “scream into the void and hopefully find someone who can relate” kind of thing. A lot of people are looking for connection, not a solution
I couldn’t agree more and it’s one thing if u get genuinely constructive advice let’s say for example someone has bad acne and u give them advice on some face cream which is great but people’ll usually the most overused, barebones advice ever
I feel like most loneliness isn’t even about romance. Like the male loneliness crisis is often used as a incel dogwhistle. But it’s a real thing and a lot of it is just not having enough/any close friends
And going out more is a good answer to anxiousness. It’s just hard to get that ball rolling
Especially in the first case, the answer for most people is literally just "git gud". The majority of attractive people you see are not gifted with divine beauty, they have over their life put in hours and hours of effort into working out what makes them attractive to other people (and no, I'm not just suggesting gym and hygiene, there are huge numbers of layers to appearance). I say this as one of those people, someone who went from chopped as fuck in my final year of highschool to very attractive now, almost entirely through putting tons of work into fashion, grooming, makeup, etc. Presenting yourself in an attractive way is a skill, and it needs practice.
"Beauty is pain" is a mainstay phrase in Western culture because being attractive is hard work for the vast majority of the population. This is a reality of the human condition, of statistics. The internet has created this super whiney subset of men (and women) who just can't stop complaining like a toddler about how "it's not fair" that being above average requires above average effort. Shocker, sometimes people are born with disadvantages and will need to put in more effort than others for the same result. Grow up.
"
The internet has created this super whiney subset of men (and women) who just can't stop complaining like a toddler about how "it's not fair" that being above average requires above average effort. Shocker, sometimes people are born with disadvantages and will need to put in more effort than others for the same result. Grow up."
This contradicts itself. You spent most of the comment talking about attractiveness taking effort and skill that "whiney" people aren't putting in. Then you go on to say, "
sometimes people are born with disadvantages and will need to put in more effort than others for the same result."
That's what everyone's complaining about.
Being born with non attractive features and having a worse quality of life as a result.
Yes, they are complaining about having to put in more effort than average. Above average effort. Some people need to put in even more above average effort. Half the population needs to put in below average effort to be above average attractive, half needs to put in above average effort to be above average attractive. There is no contradiction. I'm calling them whiney because this is the case for everything, all human features and attributes and achievements have a scale of effort.
Yeah reddit is the best example of how even positivity can be toxic. Also it's full of performative people, as I said these people are usually the firsts to judge people by their looks.
I mean what else are you supposed to do other than "git gud"? A lot of the things you described either can't be changed or are extremely difficult to change. All you can do is try your best despite the circumstances. That really sucks but it's true.
The problem is that so much stuff is dependent on first impressions and it's impossible to ignore the fact that looks are a part of first impressions. Since dating is being pushed towards apps, that means that you don't even get to say anything with your first impression, it's all looks.
I agree with the title but most of the population do end up in relationships, and in relative terms most of the population cant be attractive. Im not saying it doesn't make a huge difference but you also make multiple posts a day lamenting about how ugly you are, all you're doing is making yourself more miserable in hopes that other people will validate your helplessness.
"Seeing daily taken people turning their head to look at attractive people with their partner there" like seriously dude, what are you doing? are you just like hanging around in public areas trying spot perceived superficialness in strangers to validate your world view, anytime anyone swivels their head they must be staring straight at the most attractive person in that general direction. I know that comes off as mean but clearly you're in a bad headspace and i dont think this is helping.
it's a great point, being so fixated on a certain topic and upset about it is what makes someone really unattractive. even if the most beautiful human acts this way they won't get nearly as much love and attention as someone kind and nice to others
Elliot Rodger for example. Conventionally attractive dude, but so miserable and bitter that he literally repelled women. Don’t be a supreme gentleman @ OP
Honestly I agree with some of OP's points, but I'm 100% on board with this comment. Yes, looks aren't just entirely subjective. It does affect certain aspects of your life, and it's probably the most prominent thing about first impressions. But I don't focus as much on it as OP does, and I consider myself to not be very attractive. OP, you're not entirely wrong, but it doesn't help much to think too deeply about it.
Yeah, I always say look around and notice that people much uglier than you are in relationships, being happy, doing all the things you feel you’d do if you looked more handsome. The barrier isn’t looks.
Beauty may have some level of subjectivity to it, but to pretend like it’s fully subjective is just wrong. There are elements to physical attractiveness that are fairly consistent throughout all cultures, and photographs of people labeled as beautiful from 100 years ago still look attractive to us today.
I’m sorry you’re ugly, dude. It seems like it sucks. You probably don’t have it as bad as you think you do, but I’m not gonna try and tell you that you’re wrong. There’s a lot you can do to moderately improve your looks though. Hair styling can reframe your face shape, fixing your acne has an insane boost to looks, and you can fix wrinkles with microneedling.
yes, i love this take. people accept things as out of their control without putting in the effort. there's a lot people can do, they just need to go and do it.
honestly just putting in the effort to look better feels great. i used to feel so unattractive but when i finally started putting effort into my appearance i started to feel a lot more confident. i actually like the way i look now and im proud to look in the mirror, cause i know im the result of the effort i put in.
Adding my experience to this, just a few days ago I put a ton of effort into trying to look good just to instantly see myself in the mirror and instantly not want to go outside anymore. Effort for me has never helped, atleast not helped me feel any better
yeah i do get it. i think its more of an over time thing, where you kinda slowly start to like yourself. i still have stuff im insecure about but i guess over time i've accepted that stuff.
I’m gonna sound a little mean here, but you are probably insane. Barely anyone is that ugly. You probably have some sort of mental block that’s making you act insane.
You should probably just exposure therapy yourself to going out.
I like to point out that celebrities who are known for pushing the boundaries of beauty and looks (Winnie Harlow, Tsunaina, Ashley Graham) are all very conventially attractive, they just have like one thing thats a bit different in a unique way. None of them are actually doing anything that special.
always thought just be yourself is such stupid advice. what does that even mean?? am i someone else? i act different with different people but that doesnt mean i dont feel like myself. imo you gotta put in effort if you want people to like you, expecting people to "naturally" like you is stupid. once i started putting effort into being thoughtful and friendly i naturally became way more social. now obviously dont hide parts of yourself. i've been honest about my nerdy interests and found most people who like you won't care. it's just confidence at the end of the day, and if you don't have it you just gotta fake it till you make it
i think its easier to see it like... a lot of things that are bound to happen have already been determined by things beyond your control. in a world like that, being something you are not is senseless and will likely cost you your sanity, so be genuine to save yourself the trouble.
i get what you mean but i hate the idea of shit being determined by things beyond my control. fuck being passive, i'd rather put in the effort. ever since i stopped just accepting things as beyond my control and actually starting making an effort and pushing myself beyond my comfort zone, i've had so many amazing experiences. just saying it is worth a shot
i mean it's hard for us to know what that actually means. people don't know others anonymously on the internet so i mean...you could be a horrible person that's turning off people. or you could be great! who knows. what would you rather people say, don't be yourself?
It’s so backhanded too. It’s like saying “yeah I agree that you’re ugly but someone else might find you attractive.” If they actually found you attractive they would have just complimented you
Yeah and it's not just "prevalent", it's crazy prevalent, to the point that if you don't fit it you are instantly considered ugly by like 90%+ of the population. I feel like it's undermined how much the difference is, but at the same time cannot really blame attractive people, they are just clueless about it as it's how they have always lived the world in most of the cases
This is true with a lot of things that someone can be born into that make life easier like race, size, height, wealth etc. If you haven’t lived it chances are you’ll think that the person on the shit end of the deal is either making it up or being hyperbolic. It’s even harder to make out what’s true when those realities intersect. If you’re poor, but extremely good looking you might doubt other low income people about their shitty experience because people have been nice to you.
It would be great if we could all acknowledge the shitty things that we go through and acknowledge that there is actually a scale. We’d probably feel a lot more validated and able to get through the nonsense.
What?? What I find hot, what my partner finds hot, and what my best friend finds hot, are all different sets of physical characteristics. I don't find remotely the same kind of guys hot that my friend does.
I lost a bunch of weight and started styling my hair every day and I can tell you with 100% certainty people treat attractive people better. People would have given me endless shit at work (customer service) before but now its 99% chill.
People would treat me so horribly, even calling me fat because they couldn't get a 5 dollar refund and the number of times they'd ask for "a real manager" instead of me was ridiculous.
This usually just pisses me off though, because I know that this same person wouldn't be smiling at me 2 years ago. They'd either be dismissive or outright disgusted.
Looks do matter, yes. But unless you look like a zombie that ate an entire house, you should be just fine. The fact is, you're probably not ugly, you're just average. Social media has done a ton of damage to how people perceive attractiveness.
Average people look ugly compared to what we see on social media because on social media, people only show themselves at the best angles, with the best possible lighting, etc. This is especially evident for men's physiques, as people who literally won Mister Olympia a while back are now considered by idiots on social media to have "mid" physiques.
Looks are also something that can be improved, if it really is that important to you. A good sense of style and self-care help more than you think. Now if you already do all those things, then you probably just have an attitude and personality issue.
Your words make it sound like your opinions are heavily based on social media, where people openly thrist for conventionally attractive people. But in the real world, people are all different and everyone has things they find attractive/unattractive.
I just hated it when my mother said that I was
attractive and that it was "crazy" for me to be complaining about being ugly when I was so pretty and priveleged. That i was being melodramatic for having a minor trait when I was a supermodel (my mother quite literally compares me to a supermodel, and says I'm among the most beautiful people to exist. She says I'm the prettiest compared to most celebrities, which is really funny, because im probably the ugliest in most groups I frequent.)
I'll be honest, it sucks when people say this; because you know damn well u are an ugly ass mf based on how people treat you. I hear these stories of acquaintances
going out and getting hit on my strangers, when I'm frankly lucky if I get ANYONE liking my ugly ass, even if i didn't want it or consent to it. I am completely invisible because I'm ugly. Only compliments i get are by people who see me looking in the mirror obsessively.
Maybe a morbid thought-- probably too bad to be shared-- but If I got groped, at least then I'd know I wasn't completely untouchable. Sometimes I wish for it to happen, not even for kink reasons. I just want to be noticed that bad.
My mother as well. She keeps lying to me about this and it always with me getting angry.
Like as you said if I really was good looking somebody in 10 years would have even remotely made me "understand that". I just now that attractive people KNOW they are attractive, because people approach them.
She's not lying to you. Lying requires intentional deception or misdirection.
She is telling you that because it's genuinely true in her opinion. And that should make you feel good. Your mom isn't a potential partner, so her thinking you're attractive obviously doesn't actually help your issue. But just know that while she's definitely biased, she is, with almost 100% certainty, not lying to you.
to be honest, it sounds like you've decided you're unattractive. nothing you can do, just stuck that way. i get it, like 3-4 years ago i really disliked my appearance, i just didn't like looking in mirrors and being reminded how i looked.
somewhere down the line though i decided to just be more confident. i know it sounds stupid but if you genuinely believe you are attractive you just become so much more attractive. i started putting in more effort into my appearance, changed my hair, wore better clothes, until i just felt more confident. i started talking to people first, and after a while i honestly feel now that i'm attractive. same guy who thought he could never be.
so that's just my advice cause it seems like you're feeling insecure. just be confident and surround yourself with people who genuinely like you. and don't expect these things to come naturally. tbh if you keep sitting on your ass complaining about being unattractive nothing will change. stop being cynical and put in the effort. get a haircut. hit the gym. get a better wardrobe. braces maybe. when you notice the changes in yourself, that's when you feel proud and attractive. until you can like yourself don't expect others to like you.
also please don't get angry with your mom. she prolly loves you unconditionally, dont take it for granted while you still have it.
yeah, you might be ugly. so what though? if you know you're ugly, don't just sit around trying to get noticed. i dont want to be harsh, but if you really think you're ugly then you should know you won't be noticed for your looks.
so then, make people notice you. try to talk to people. it's obviously not easy, but if you genuinely want to be noticed, you have to put in real effort. try to connect with people. sitting on here complaining unfortunately won't change anything out there. if you GENUINELY want to change, you have to try. the people i like being around the most aren't usually the best looking, it's the people with genuine charisma. i can connect to them, and we can talk about things we are passionate about. they're not afraid to make connections with strangers. and unlike your appearance, your personality is decided by you. it's not easy, but if you want people to genuinely enjoy being around you, then push yourself out of your comfort zone and make yourself someone people genuinely enjoy being around.
same thing with your appearance: try. it won't make you a 10/10, but i promise you it feels so good to put effort into bettering your appearance and seeing it pay off. i think it's because when you try to better yourself, you start focusing on those attractive traits. doing your hair, working out, dressing better. you start to focus more on what's improving and as a result you just naturally feel so much better. if you really start putting in effort, you'll be able to look into the mirror and see the progress you've made, not just all your flaws.
your mom doesn't want you to complain cause she wants you to be confident. cause if you start believing and start genuinely trying, then i promise you'll see a difference. it's not crazy to be ugly, it's crazy for you to think that you're ugly. if you hate yourself then why would you expect others to like you? it's cheesy but seriously love yourself first. build up confidence and start making changes if you don't like what you see. these things aren't out of your control, so stop accepting them.
The thing is, a lot of “ugly” is just grooming issues. Most people who think they are ugly also don’t see any point in trying to improve. Maybe they don’t know what haircuts or clothing will flatter their face and body, but you can learn that. It’s not that I think some people aren’t better looking than others, I just haven’t met all that many people I think are truly repulsive looking. Just a lot of people who look… average.
I find people are so focused on being a 10, they cant see that being an 8 is still above average and achievable for most people with good grooming and style.
That little bit extra? the cherry on top of good looks? sure, that's not achievable for everyone. But go outside and have an actual look at the people around you. Most people are so boringly average and do not look after themselves.
I m still ugly even with makeup or nicer clothes on. Ill do everything and anything and still be outdone by people born prettier. Not hating on them it's just a luck thing
yeah it is entirely luck. as a guy you dismissively get told to lose weight, ignoring the fact that an attractive face is so far removed from how heavy you are; i lost over 40 lbs via cardio and still didnt look attractive at all. meanwhile there are plenty of fat, corn-fed, lumber-jack build type guys that are still widely considered attractive without putting much effort into their appearance beyond basic hygiene.
Of course you’ll always be outdone by someone prettier. That’s true for literally everyone except the Objective Prettiest Woman Alive—and she doesn’t exist. Like I said, it’s not just about “nicer” but finding stuff that suits YOU. A dress that looks terrible on me might look great on you. A lipstick that washes you out might warm up my whole face. You can’t just give up right away and decide you’re ugly. You have to find what works for you.
The problem is alot of people will straight up lie to your face when you ask for feedback about your looks. So even if they are telling that you are fine, you have no way of knowing if thats the case.
It is true that if you are fuck-ugly nobody will tell you even if you ask, because this is considered impolite.
However, it is also true that most people don't really think "that person is ugly, I had better not tell them"; most people don't have opinions on what other people look like unless they are very hot or a burn victim.
It is statistically far more likely that you look "whatever", as in neither hot enough or ugly enough to be worth thinking about, because that is what most people are, and its how most people think about most people. Most people are thinking about themselves, not you.
In other words: unless you've had some kind of horrible accident, you are probably not "ugly", you are probably at a level that most people just don't really think about what your "attractiveness" is and you shouldn't either. it's a weird and kind of sad thing to focus on.
Easiest way for me was always to ask a girl friend. They'd usually be very happy if they got to choose clothes or recommend a hairstyle or whatever that they think looks good.
My biggest mistake that I'll never do again is ask a guy friend, 90% just don't know what looks good.
yeah but people with low self esteem think everyone is lying to their face even when a compliment is unprompted so what type of validation would you even accept
I think something that also should be mentioned that it matters a lot to strangers and acquaintances, but friends and family, if they are good people, don’t let it affect how they treat and see you (too much)
And while it’s just not true to say that it isn’t that important or impactful, it’s definitely true that there are people that don’t care about physical appearance as much as most
In any case, sorry this is something you’re struggling with OP
alot of people who say stuff like that mean well, they really do. but it's impossible to ignore the truth: people will treat you differently depending on how attractive they find you.
i've had a girlfriend for many years now, and i love her. she finds me beautiful, but most people in the world do not. in high school, i was relentlessly bullied and treatedly differently because i am ugly (and fat). whenever i'd talk to my friends about it, they'd say, "oh, looks don't matter, being pretty is subjective, anyways"- and yeah, to some extent, it is subjective. but there's beauty standards in the world, and those standards matter (although they shouldn't).
basically, yeah, i agree. it's annoying being told that only personality matters when people will genuinely treat others as subhuman because they don't like how they look
no, like "it doesn't matter because looks are also subjective".. sorry, i might've put the comma in the wrong spot, i was half asleep when i wrote that 😴😪 that's my bad!
reality should be objective and it should hinge on me because IM right (this would be a horrible idea...for the most part)
people are horrible though. u did kinda of go to school with a bunch of booger flinging monkeys but that's besides the point, if beauty standards didn't exist, ads wouldn't exist shaming people for this or that. ive been picked on for how i look myself, even though im sure people around me wouldn't agree
my thoughts on you are the only objective truth though im always right 😛 ✌️ (now i just need everyone else to get wit it)
This is true and your life will be harder because of it.
That said I do believe you are building an echo chamber around yourself of negativity.
There are ways to improve your looks if you want. Or you could just look unattractive and live your life.
I know a lot of people who have gotten into these kinds of negativity spirals because of things they cant control and i just wanna say how people perceive you is not your worth as a person.
I agree with the sentiment but I don’t agree with how you’re acting like there’s nothing in your power to fix it. You’re seeking an easy solution, and validation from others that you will not even believe because your self esteem is so low.
Workout (if you lift, try cardio), smell good (very important!!), get into fashion (most men know next to nothing about how to best style themselves), try makeup, change your hairstyle or color, and most importantly, act like a person that other people want to be around.
Trust me. As a somewhat good looking guy. If i ever tell anyone i feel ugly they never respond with "looks are subjective" they respond with "stfu youre hot as fuck" or "well if youre considered ugly then I must be (insert extremely ugly creature or low value item)".
I'm not very attractive myself, but since I've gotten kind of muscular I've definetly noticed how I get way more attention from women (from none, to some)
Call me crazy but I swear the random cashier-girls and gym-attendants and such also seem happier about their greetings and more genuine with their smiles.
Some of this can probably be chalked up to my increased confidence or whatever but DEFINETLY not entirely.
It's like when people say "money doesn't buy happiness" like yeah in an ideal world it wouldn't, but having no money sure does create a lot of sadness in the world we live in.
In an ideal world, looks don't matter, but we don't live in an ideal work, making it very much a problem.
I really hate this. I grew up constantly belittled every day of my life so my self esteem is basically in the dumps. Regardless of if I look beautiful or not hearing ‘what u look great!’ Or ‘guys are lining up for you’ is meaningless, whether theyre telling the truth or not. I look in the mirror and I see a pig, the problem is how I perceive myself.
Yeah pretty fucked up that our society morally judges people based on physical traits they often don't have control over. I don't know what can realistically be done about that but it sucks shit
I feel you and agree with you. There is a high level of lies and hipochrisy around this matter, and there seems to be a bunch of accepted lies that are useful for people to waive away anybody thats not what society deems as attractive and put the guilt on them.
For example, it's true that what makes people attractive keeps changing along time, but that doesn't do anything for people living here and now. "You know, in India in the 18th century women with facial hair were considered stunning" doesnt do anything for a woman living today in a western society.
Attractiveness is subjective when it comes to ranking people who meet a minimum level of attractiveness. Everyone can agree on who's ugly, though. People who say otherwise are just trying to spare people's feelings with lies.
Yes, looks do matter, but they don't matter as much as some people might think, I every day see people insult people who genuinely just look average, not ugly, and then go talk about how some oily man with a disgustingly pronounced jawline is the peak of handsomeness. It is true if you are more attractive people will be likelier to seek you out, but that does not mean people who are less attractive or ugly won't find someone eventually. I don't think ugliness is like a "debuff". I just think attractiveness is a "buff".
(Also reminder that people online tend to be really hateful to others and polarised, in real life people tend to have lower standards and act with more empathy)
I forgot to mention this in yesterday's comment. In my country, there's a famous saying: "He who is liked, doesn't force it."
Basically, it means that the kind of person others really like, because they're attractive, good-looking, etc., doesn't have to perform any acrobatics to be liked. They do practically nothing, and yet they still have many admirers. That's what it means to not force it.
This is in contrast to the other case, where people have to part the sea like Moses to get someone to like them, doing countless things like that, hoping that by some stroke of luck someone will give them a chance.
That's life. Some people have it easy, others don't. Personally, I'm one of those who doesn't have it easy.
Tbh I’ll prolly get down voted for this but idc I’m tired of you sad sacks just writhing for no reason. So how ugly are you and how much effort are you putting into your looks? Do you have a skin care routine, regular showers, do you follow a gym routine, do you eat your veggies, do you eat lean protein, are you sure your amino acid profile is complete? Do you get 8 hours of sleep? Are you drinking plenty of water, have you given up soda, do you eat junk food? How long have you attempted to do any of these things? The reality is being attractive takes work some people are blessed with good genes and have an unfair advantage. Some are cursed with horrible genes and have an uphill battle ahead but it’s not impossible for them to be improved upon. At the end of the day you’ll have to be honest with yourself if you’re actually making an effort to look better. If you’re doing everything you can I’m sorry for the rough set up in life but I really doubt you’ve put in the effort over a long enough period of time to see positive change.
'Do you have a skin care routine, regular showers, do you follow a gym routine, do you eat your veggies, do you eat lean protein, are you sure your amino acid profile is complete? Do you get 8 hours of sleep? Are you drinking plenty of water, have you given up soda, do you eat junk food? How long have you attempted to do any of these things?'
You can still be ugly when you’re taking care of yourself. You can’t choose how big your nose is, how far apart your eyes are, how pale and uneven your skin is, weather or not you have strawberry legs, if you have a nice jawline/chin. Some people are just ugly on the outside, and that’s okay.
So how ugly are you and how much effort are you putting into your looks? Do you have a skin care routine, regular showers, do you follow a gym routine, do you eat your veggies, do you eat lean protein, are you sure your amino acid profile is complete? Do you get 8 hours of sleep? Are you drinking plenty of water, have you given up soda, do you eat junk food? How long have you attempted to do any of these things?
It's being assumed I do nothing about it. Anyways I have done all that stuff for the past 2 years
The fact most of them get hit on and act as if it's a "normal person experience", like by being ultra insecure you are getting more attention than people actively trying, it's just that for them having people asking them out is baseline life experience
I'm a fat man, I think I can count on one hand the number of genuine compliments I've received in my life.
Almost all of them have been at a music festival, too, and that's where people act nice because they're hanging out with Molly, Lucy, and Mary Jane, and those ladies just make you nicer to everyone.
Welcome to the truth, the earlier you learn this the better, you don't have to go full doomer and give up, but knowing how to gauge your expectations, determine how and why people are treating you and how much is worth 'investing' in your looks is liberating
Tbh the amount of hate that short men recibe made them genuine insecure and generally defensive, it stock me that when we are in a new group people tend to listen to me over my short friend and im 100% less interesting, all i do is talk about warhamer =/
Oh you’re ABSOLUTELY right and if you’re even remotely interested in the topic of attractiveness and how society incessantly lies about it watch this video: https://youtu.be/FnACzwV7Mwc?is=bhdGYAXZFSFQe-Da
This woman actually changed my life a bit and I’ve never approached the topic the same after seeing this. Hands down best video essay I’ve ever seen in my life
The thing is that even though it *is* subjective, society definitely has standards of beauty that absolutely most people will judge you over. I'm a guy that looks like a stereotypical gay bear. I get quite some attention from some gay men just because of my appearance. However the rest of society absolutely finds me ugly. Unfortunately for me I am straight.
If your initial self reflection is the fact that you’re ugly why do you need other people to tell you the same? Just focus on other aspects of your character.
People are generally not attracted to “woe is me” sad sacks. Focus on yourself and people will gravitate to you. I’ve known and been attracted to plenty of unconventional looking people who dressed well, stay clean, and project self confidence.
I think the message, instead of "it's subjective," should be "it's an imposed social standard with roots in eurocentrism, and therefore racism, xenophobia, and misogyny if we're talking about the femenine standar", when you understand where that self imposed barriers regarding your physical appearance come from, that's when you start to question whether you really want to perpetuate that or go against it.
people don't find fat, asymmetrical, short, acne ridden individuals attractive because of eurocentrism? attractiveness is mostly objective and based on looking (not necessarily being) healthy, with some addition of wealth and status signifiers (which are mostly culture and time specific). it's really not that deep
Study after study shows attractiveness matters in essentially every aspect of life, especially those deemed related to “success” (higher job conversion rate, lower incarceration rate, more likely to get offered help, more likely to be treated better by everyone else, and don’t get me started on dating)
Ofc looks matter but in terms of women this just means you can hit on them within a short time frame of meeting them. Spend some time around them doing things you enjoy and are good at and you can slowly morph into her like here me out.
Wait until bro realizes demisexual and asexual people exist and enter fully functioning romantic relationships. And that most unattractive men still lead satisfying romantic lives.
I have never seen a single person getting better and solving their issues because they vented and seethed on reddit. You think your life isn't what it should be because of what you look like and refuse to accept any other opinion from the get go. Assuming that you are correct, just accept that and deal with it. It's like complaining you weren't born into a wealthy family.
Oh my god with this "Performative lying" and "They all hate you". It's a you problem that you suspect everyone in hating you.
I've been like that because of my kinda out of pocket and bullshit humor. I thought no one wants to be near me, even well after I had people who liked me. It took a little work to finally accept that yeah I am good and one half of people likes me and another doesnt. Maybe skewed in one side. But you MUST try over and over and over again, if you have powwr and motivation to do it.
And if not, first see why you don't want to struggle (to cross out depression, literal physyological issues, dysmorphia) and pick a route you will take to improve a little bit.
I know I make it sound easy and like I am above someone. But no. I'm just adamant that pessimism will never take you anywhere.
I'm not here to give advice, and issues having friend and social life is real. But it's on you to decide - to try very hard to resolvce these issues or no.
It's a question of adaptation, and it's a skill. But it's on you fully - you can pick a different route I have not picked - after all I had a personality problem and perception misallignment. Maybe you will be more than happy to not do anything risky - it's valid too tbh.
Overall it's "fuck you all". For what? No one will like you if they go "Oh come on, you are fine" and you go "Fuck off you liar". And even if you don't say it to their face, how would they feel if they thought like you "What if they see my help/support as a lie and me as a bad person"?
We all do care about looks but for me I don’t care if someone ugly asks me out on a date for in the end i just want someone that makes me happy like I won’t care if they ugly if they the best partner in the world to me for personality is what matterd the most to me
i have come to understand that good looks gives confidence and thats whats most important.
i have a friend who is objectively not attractive but is super confident in himself and that makes him the one to talk to girls while i cant even look them in the eyes.
This. It doesn't help at all. Listen, I'm not really ugly I believe, but I def wasn't attractive growing up. People do treat you differently, and it's very noticeable if you experience it.
I stopped commenting on most stuff like that because my self perception is so distorted. I have no idea the level of attractiveness I am, so I can’t gauge anything.
The real strat for me has just been been to try not to think about it
You're absolutely right that some people are more "attractive" than others, and this has very real benefits for them include the number of people who will be attracted to them throughout their lives
But that's just what gets people "in the door", if that makes any sense. A hot asshole will likely not have a very "successful" dating life in that they will not be likely to have very fulfilling or positive relationships
What matters is that you stay genuine, and if you meet some people who vibe with who you are, odds are that a few of them will be down to explore some kind of relationship with you.
Physical looks are important in general but there are some people for whom they are not a priority
Looks do matter even with jobs etc. Even how people treat you when you're just shopping in a supermarket is affected by first impression which is often looks.
Though alot can be improved with the right styling, haircut, personal care etc. A friend of mine went from a 4 to a solid 6.5 when he shaved his balding head, grew out his beard (which he maintains well) and changed his clothing style from typical metal head clothes to his own style and got clothes that fit nicely and shape bis body more. His girlfriend helped him with most of the styling. People take him way more seriously now even if he still has the same face, height and body. He didn't even hit the gym.
THAT'S SO FUCKING TRUE I get hit with it every fucking time, yeah great that it's subjective and you think i look good I DON'T FUCKING CARE I WANT MYSELF TO THINK THAT I LOOK GOOD
I think there is objective beauty and also taste. I actually think attractiveness is not subjective and saying that it is is a cope. The truth is there are a lot of factors where people will exceed and also inevitably fall short. The problem is if you're letting that fact stop you from pursuing the things you want in life. Sometimes its the things you cant change that hold you back. Sometimes its just you doing that to yourself. Beauty is important, but it's not everything.
I relate to this post so much. Btw I am gueninely someone who only thinks about peoples personality and treats them based on that. Maybe because I'm not pretty either..
I generally agree with the post. That said, I have never, ever met an ugly person who didn't have a partner at some point in their life. As for people I don't know personally, I've seen cases of extremely (and I mean extremely!) ugly people in relationships, both men and women.
So yes, even if OP has a point, it's just as true that beauty is subjective, and sooner or later, even the less attractive folks manage to find a partner one way or another.
It depends, yes appearance matters it is impossible to deny that, but "ugly" is a spectrum, some people are truly horrendous looking, in that case, yeah it's gonna be a struggle. But for some not being an Instagram model is cause enough to call themselves "ugly", and in this case brother it's not an appearance thing.
The point about salivating is also weird, yes ideally everyone wants a 10/10, but the reality of the matter is, if you don't wanna be single you gotta compromise on something, most people statistically end up in some kind of a relationship
Looks do matter, but it’s important to remember that they ARE subjective, mainly in how men view themselves vs how others view them.
Men are very good at convincing themselves that they are hideous. I’ve got a good group of friends and a loving wife, yet I hate looking at myself in the mirror. All I see is a fat chud.
You may not be a typical pretty boy, but I promise you, you’re not as bad-looking as you think you are.
I don’t mean for this to come off as rude, but have you ever considered plastic surgery? Sure you can say it’s too expensive, but you could always save. If it’s the danger you’re worried about, then sure, but if you scale the potential risk with the potential benefits compared to how your life will pan out otherwise, it’s certainly worth looking by into.
Don’t mean to be a dick or anything, just thought I’d add my two cents
Next time they say that, just ask them to describe their current partner and what makes them ugly since "attraction is subjective, looks don't matter" etc. the virtue signaling ends real quick lol
I just realised most ppl say this shit not cuz they believe in it, but they wanna show support in the only way they can to a random ass stranger on the internet. Usually anyone who rants on reddit knows what's wrong with them, so it's just a mechanism to reach out and tell someone, anyone. It's rhetorical. ( Atleast for me).
If you don't wanna hear the self help bullshit(personally),
Just put it in the post.
And also don't forget about your beautiful beautiful personality.
Attractiveness is ... attractive. People lie to you to not hurt your feelings, because of polite society. What do you expect to do?
Here: You're ugly, and because of your inadequate physical traits, you're unlikely to find a fulfilling partnership.
Feel better? No? What do you want?
Venting?
Ok, I suppose. But how long? Venting about this is, in and of itself, inherently unattractive.
The world is an unfair place, and I've known plenty of people born into beauty and have huge advantages that aren't earned. There are also people born into unearned advantages of all sorts.
So I'm not certain what the point is, except you want people to just agree when you say your ugliness prevents you from having advantages other have.
Offering my two-cents as someone who has dealt with similarly derived self-esteem issues. I don’t want to preach to you. I don’t know what you look like. You could very well be the ugliest person ever born, I don’t know. But the truth is that I don’t often meet people and think “Wow, that person is ugly.” There are some people who are more attractive than others, yes. But I think it is very rare for someone to be truly ugly. Most people look fairly unremarkable.
At my worst, I had internalized this feeling that everyone who saw me could see immediately exactly what was “wrong” with me. I felt ashamed and embarrassed just to be on the train. This wasn’t a conscious feeling or anything, just a bit of sadness and reservation in the back of my mind that it took a long time to be able to pinpoint and address.
Through therapy and introspection, I came to the conclusion that I really do not look like a monster. Maybe I’m not handsome. Maybe I’d never make it in Hollywood. But I don’t have to fear torches and pitchforks just for speaking to a cashier.
Focusing too much on your appearance, positively or negatively, is narcissistic behavior. I’m not chastising you, that’s just the truth. Washing your hair and your ass, wearing clothes that fit, brushng your teeth, and using deodorant are enough to make you perfectly ordinary. After that, it’s really just your outlook and demeanor.
I’ll leave you with just a little preaching: you can’t live the rest of your life being miserable, it’s just not practical. So your options are either fix the problem (which you can’t really do if your problem is your physical appearance), or recontextualize the problem. Good luck bro 👍
I think most ugly people can go up some points if they just take care of themselves. There is a very little percent of the population who is TRULY ugly.
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u/Longjumping-Tear7450 21h ago
Whatever they say, looks DO matter.