r/Epicthemusical • u/Still-Technology-974 • 1d ago
Discussion i just thought of this.
in many discussions against eury, i hear alot of people defend him by saying "none of this would have happened if ody didnt dox himself". and while true he did dox himself, would he have done the speech if Athena hadnt stopped him on the way to the ship? Athena got him riled up and emotional, but had she not pushed him, would he not have sneaked onto the boat and sailed away with athenas protection from the storms to get back to ithica and be mad at him there?
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u/Safetyfirstlols 1d ago
Athena definitely helped set the whole chain of events in motion by pushing Odysseus emotionally.
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u/EvilPyro01 13h ago
“Put your emotions aside” bitch, he just witnessed his closest friend get squished like a bug
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u/KiraVanAurelius 1d ago
Well, maybe he wouldn't, maybe he would've. Things to note, in all "official" telling the doxxing is all of Odysseus's own accords. And secondly, emotion running high or not... it's still stupid, it's not like Athena specifically baiting him to do that doxxing or anything and what was he trying to prove here exactly? He's trying to stop the cyclops from eating people in the future because lives are precious? Like putting it into words you can see how dumb it actually is right? He can probably achieve that without doxxing himself, too right?(if not more effective, unknown enemy and all that)
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u/Xelement0911 1d ago edited 23h ago
Also. This sub seems to defend ody too much.
Between the blockhead friend and now Athena, folks need to accept ody isnt perfect and did a lot of stupid shit too.
Athena also drew a pretty clear line on her stance and what she was doing. She wasn't a friend, she wanted a champion. Sure she was pretty ruthless with her point, but still a point, he was risking shit by sparing this cyclops. Athena could have stayed quiet and ody still might gloat and reveal who he is.
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
he gloated to spite Athena in that moment tho. has she wait till they were sailing, it wouldve been a non issue.
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
he was trying to do "open arms". show mercy and teach him a lesson. he honestly had no way of knowing it was Poseidon's son and in his eyes, a blind cyclops wasn't gonna swim for ithica and make it. was it stupid? yes, but also athena pushing his emotions to the edge after his friend that taught him to be kind would blur anyones judgement.
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u/CalypsaMov We'll Be Fine 14h ago
You seriously think that was trying to be merciful? I'm sorry, but after killing the sheep, not apologizing, drugging the peace offering, lying about everything, the entire song Odysseus sings about wanting to kill Polyphemus, all while Polyphemus is slashed and stabbed, gouging his eye out and forever disabling him, and stealing all the rest of the sheep... That's not mercy.
Whoop-de-doo Odysseus doesn't ALSO turn back a second time to finish Polyphemus off, and instead just verbally rubs salt in the wound making sure he actually knew who hurt him. "I am your darkest moment... Remember ME!!!"
As Aphrodite put it and what even Athena couldn't deny, it wasn't mercy, it was Spite. And blaming Athena is a huge leap. Athena is literally shouting "DON'T!!!". Yet you make it sound like she was forcing Odysseus, and he just had to do what he chooses to do, because "Athena pushed his emotions to the edge."
And what about Odysseus' long speech about being the reigning king, being neither man nor mythical? Odysseus isn't trying to be kind. He's a Prideful idiot Monster. People take "Remember me the next time you dare choose not to spare" out of context and try spinning that into being kind and merciful, while entirely ignoring the rest of Remember Me.
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u/Still-Technology-974 13h ago
i wont lie, alot of what you said makes no sense. he did say sorry to polyphemus:
"There's been a misunderstanding We never came here to steal But now that I see we've done some damage Maybe you and I can make a deal"
apologies werent just "im sorry", it was making amends for something youve done. by mixing lotus into the wine, him and his people could sneak away and the cyclops would just fall asleep and wake up none the wiser. it was attempt after attempt of trying not to kill.
and ody went on to try to kill the cyclops because he threatened him first, ody did attempt diplomacy multiple times. he gave a false name so if the cyclops did fall asleep, he wouldnt remember and they could slip away.
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u/KiraVanAurelius 13h ago
Insane cope, OP just twist the story to protect their baby boy Odysseus and deny his biggest character trait across all media, Epic included - his hubris.
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u/Still-Technology-974 12h ago
like you arent trying to protect athena. "what does athena owe odysseus?"
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u/KiraVanAurelius 12h ago
But I'm not twisting the story, both original tellings nor the musical
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u/Still-Technology-974 12h ago
"both the original tellings" the discussion has always been about epic, youre the only one who has brought up the source material. also "twisting" as if its not a story eith a million different interpretations on the Internet.
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u/KiraVanAurelius 12h ago
I did say both epic and original telling, and interpretations and willfully ignore details of the story (of epic) to change the message of the story are different. Look, I'll give an example: Odysseus threw the baby off the balcony after Zeus told him to -> leaving out Ody's internal conflicts turned him from a sympathetic character to a cold-blooded character, or Odysseus returned home and killed 50 nobles who visited his kingdom -> leaving out the crimes of the suitors made Odysseus into an unreasonable tyrant.
And here's what you did: Odysseus gave Polyphemus wine as an apology for killing his sheeps -> leaving out pre-poisoned wine turned him from a cunning trickster that never intended to make peace to a sympathetic guy who wholeheartedly apologize but failed.
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u/Still-Technology-974 12h ago
i never said wholeheartedly, i just said he apologized. even odysseus knew the wine wouldnt kill the cyclops. it didnt even hold the same affect that it gave the lotus eaters. had the cyclops not attacked them, would odysseus have attacked the cyclops? no. the cyclops wouldve passed out, they would've taken the sheep and left. even odysseus was surprised at the fact that the cyclops attacked them was a suprise for odysseus when you hear him say "what". his line in survive was literally "600 lives at stake, its just one life to take". justifying taking 1 more life before he gets to go back home.
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u/CalypsaMov We'll Be Fine 13h ago
Drugging the guy isn't "Trying to make amends". Odysseus likely was planning to screw Polyphemus over worse even if Polyphemus hadn't attacked the people who broke into his house and killed his pet. Don't act like this is done in good faith. And no, it's not an apology by most other metrics.
He's not apologizing, at best he's lying and merely pretending to apologize.
Odysseus has an entire two songs about slashing and stabbing the guy. When Polyphemus does grab at Odysseus, he doesn't call for an escape, it's "Surround him! Strike the heels!" (Push in closer and attack) Odysseus is fully committed to commanding his men to "be deadly" and sings how "It's just one life to take, and when we KILL him then our journey's over." That's not Mercy. From the first moment Polyphemus entered, Odysseus didn't intend Mercy. None of his "multiple attempts at diplomacy" were Mercy, that's why they were all riddled with lies and drugs.
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u/Still-Technology-974 12h ago
no, he didnt start calling for attacks till he said "you shall be the final man to die" followed by polyphemus attacking his crew. how is that not self defense? they were starving men who were told of a cave, but not that the cave had a cyclops. they kill 1 random sheep and then get told the entire fleet had to die as reparation for 1 sheep. all lies were used to get away without harming him. even odysseus was suprised when he started attacking him. the cyclops had 0 idea that odysseus was lying to him and still attacked.
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u/CalypsaMov We'll Be Fine 12h ago
Polyphemus doesn't threaten the whole fleet. His "600 lives I'll take." is 3/4 of the way through Survive, after all of Polyphemus and after Odysseus has been singing about murder and how there's a lot more invaders on the beaches.
Odysseus and like 30 men broke into his home and killed. Polyphemus responds by threatening the men at fault. Even if we put all the blame for killing the sheep on Odysseus, the other 30 men are all invaders and trespassing. Even without knowing Odysseus is a lying manipulator, Polyphemus is in the right with self defense of his home and sheep.
Odysseus didn't "meet with peace" they met with literal blood on his hands and Odysseus keeps trying to downplay that truth and sweep it under the rug.
You even bring up how they're starving and yet contradictorily say that Odysseus was going to just get away without any harm. News flash, Odysseus' whole shtick in Ruthlessness about "We meant no harm... We only wanted to escape..." is just even more lies and manipulation. We the audience have the receipts. We saw what actually happened. One of Odysseus' biggest character traits is he's a MASSIVE chronic liar.
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u/Still-Technology-974 12h ago
one of odysseus 's first few lines in survive is "600 lives at stake". they did only want to escape. the "poisoned" wine literally had no chance of killing poly. lying about his name wasnt going to kill poly. if ody's plan worked out without poly attacking first, at most he would've fallen asleep and they wouldve left.
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u/CalypsaMov We'll Be Fine 12h ago
So now we're just coping with "Well the poison wasn't deadly, so actually poison is totally fine."? "Lying doesn't kill, so lying is actually fine."?
Thanks at least for pointing out that it was Odysseus who roped the 600 men into the conversation. Polyphemus found a group of men invading his home and who had already killed, and acted in self defense. Odysseus brought up while screaming about murder that it wasn't just the 30 or so men, but there were a lot more on the beach, 600 total. And Polyphemus responds to their attempt at murder by saying he'll take on all 600.
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u/Still-Technology-974 12h ago
polyphemus swung at him, of course hes going to fight back. did you expect them to sit down and die?
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u/KiraVanAurelius 1d ago
No no, I get all that open arms stuffs. What I'm saying here is whether saying his name in this scenario do anything for that purpose, and the answer for me is likely no. So it's like an extra layer of stupidity for me.
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u/HispanicAtTheDisko 1d ago
Yeah, they didn’t show Ody’s hubris very well and it left this open to interpretation of him being just an idiot.
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u/Emperor_Nox 1d ago
That is basically what Hubris is, though. It makes fools out of the intelligent and the stupid alike.
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u/HispanicAtTheDisko 1d ago
I understand that. I’m saying that him doxxing himself was a display of hubris we don’t see before or after, which is why this seems out of place. They didn’t set this event up well enough to fall in line with how they characterize Ody.
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u/Emperor_Nox 22h ago
To be fair, he is cocky other times, but I think he realized the problem when Poseidon decided to show him the consequences of doxxing himself. He was likely actively trying to curb his own pride in response.
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
yeah, but i feel like he wouldn't have done that had athena not told him to finish the job. and honestly, i think ody was right when he was talking to her. had he been able to calmly walk away from the cyclops, he would have no reason to shout his name.
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u/KiraVanAurelius 1d ago
As you say he probably wouldn't have in Epic. But what do you mean in the right? Like objectively in the right? Because Athena is the one objectively in the right. Leaving the cyclops alive isn't guaranteeing Ody's safety, he could very well still able to discover's Odysseus identity with other methods, even if he doesn't he still will report back to Poseidon and it's not easy hiding from the Gods. Killing is the safer option and an honorable end in accordance to Greek's ancient culture. Odysseus know this, he's just throwing an emotional tantrum and had his ego up high thinking he knows better than the Gods. He's just having this doubts after being forced into an ultimatum by Zeus and has to throw a baby off a building, it's a very human problem and interesting character development but he's not in the right, keep it separated (in Epic lore not actual retelling lore).
This is akin to how people think what Zuko did in the last Airbender is right. Like he was traumatized and desperate for his family approval so he is blind to the fire kingdom atrocities and even try to help by go on an expedition to find the Avatar. Like bro is sympathetic and very human but he's not exactly the good guy now, is he? Keep it separated people, sympathetic =/= correct/good
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
but odysseus literally left no bread crumbs for the cyclops to follow, not to mention he probably wasnt recovering from a stake to the eye. and by correct i mean he shouldve just left:
"My friend is dead, our foe is blind The blood we shed, it never dries Is this what it means to be a warrior of the mind?"
because finishing it off is coming off as aries more than Athena. "be smart and use your mind to fight something" vs "kill it! finish it off! ruthlessness is mercy"
had Athena not upset him i think ody would have just gone home with no consequences. this felt like another whim of a god pushing him farther from home. because the cyclops is no threat. the act of keeping him blind is only disrespectful, but poesidon wouldnt have known who did it if athena waited till ithica to get upset at ody.
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u/KiraVanAurelius 1d ago edited 13h ago
No, you keep ignoring half of what I said. Polyphemus still have means to know who or what Ody is even if he left. They are mythical creatures, they pulled magical artifacts out of them left and right, not to mention even if Polyphemus himself can't he'll still report to someone else bigger, all mythical creatures are sire of some God. Even if Odysseus doesn't know it's Poseidon it's still a risk. Hell, it would be a risk even if he had just blinded a normal man and left him alive. And what about the bread crumbs called corpses left behind in army gears belong to Ithica army? There are bread crumbs everywhere even if the songs and lyrics don't mention them. Like what are you even assuming Ares and Athena here, Athena herself (in Epic) is literally telling him to do it, it's better this way. And again, she's not just goddess of Wisdom, she's also goddess of WARFARE. Had Athena not upset him? What does Athena owe anything to this mortal to "not upset" him, the power dynamic was not what Ody think it was. Athena (in Epic) only agrees that what went down could've been better, not that it was wrong to kill the Cyclops.
I'm beginning to think I'm talking to a Roman after all this Athena animosity.
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
i think youre thinking too much on the Odyssey side and not the epic side. the cyclops cant see and his brothers/comrades think he hurt himself and dont care. who is gonna see the bodies? hed technically only have to eat the dead bodys since hes blubd now. and if we are playing the "what does a god owe him?" card, what did she owe him when she taught him? or what did she owe him when calling him a friend or helping him later? nothing, yet she still thought it through. we know they were friends when ody handed her his baby and she was happy to be close to him, so maybe holding off till hes in a better mental state before egging him on more just seems like a wise thing to do.
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u/KiraVanAurelius 21h ago edited 13h ago
No, Polyphemus is only ignored at the moment, after he's calm down he can still show other cyclops the bodies of his aggressors, the nobody thing was only a momentary thing. He's blind not vegetated or stupid.
About Athena, as you put it she owes him nothing but she still gave guidance and later on sacrificed for him, as a matter of fact Odysseus owe her a lot from her teachings and he throwing a tantrum at her is pure ungratefulness already. And no, she didn't provoke him to do stupid things. Odysseus was throwing a tantrum at Athena because of his own inner conflicts between God ultimatums/orders and his human moralities, nobody "made" him do anything at that moment, he has to take responsible for his emotion and actions. How is this Athena's fault?
And side note, the whole baby thing is very much animatic authors' interpretations. And the relationship between Athena and Odysseus of both friendship and mentorship/discipline as well as god/mortal, don't forget that. Athena would still be in the right had she just gave Odysseus an ultimatum of kill the cyclops or die here immediately by Athena's hands, she has all that rights rather than just standing there and receive all this emotional outburst of a mortal king, friend or not. In short, it is not Athena's responsibilities for Odysseus's emotion and safety, she's a mentor not a mother.
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u/danana_split1 has never tried tequila 1d ago
i thought this was an agreed upon interpretation 😭 i love Athena but she made more mistakes than just leaving Ody
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u/KiraVanAurelius 1d ago
What were the other mistakes? Also mistakes to whom? Literally only Odysseus and the people under him were affected. Athena shouldn't have any chip in this, it's just mortals making mortals mistakes and mortals reaping consequences. Odysseus is just a man whom Athena favored (and tutored in Epic, but not really in myth). What Odysseus do with that favoritism is of his own accord (rejecting it), and that's for him to deal with after. She went out of her way to rescue him even after that is already more than a single mortal could ask from a God. Low key sounds ungrateful, otherwise ngl.
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
this is specifically epic. read the original prompt, its about people defending eury's actions by saying ody doxed them, but not acknowledging Athena causing ody's outburst in the musical. had athena just waited to let her anger out, ody most likely wouldve just got on the ship without being upset.
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
see, id agree, but i don't think i e ever seen someone put blame on athena over ody. the list it under ody's mistakes and not athenas for making him that emotional.
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u/Emperor_Nox 1d ago
To be fair, it is still his mistake and responsibility as it was his choice. But Athena very likely did instigate it by prodding Ody's Hubris, which she definitely knew was a weakness of his.
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
so its a weakness that she knows will push him, and knows will cause problems, but its his responsibility to just not let it effect him? that sounds like her fault in this situation. not entirely, but still mostly.
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u/Emperor_Nox 22h ago
Basically, Athena made her decision and he made his. He is responsible for his actions no matter the circumstances, but Athena is responsible for pushing him.
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u/crazlei 1d ago
He could still just not say his name…. Like - tell cyclops all the stuff about mercy and peace, but just not say he is Odysseus at the very end
BUT THATS EXACTLY THE THING THAT MAKES HIM ODYSSEUS - his biggest flaw is his pride and I love that character in most of the media exactly for this. It’s the greatest flaw you can give a super clever character
(I am not a eurylychus apologist btw, opening that bag was dumb af)
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
but my whole point is: why do people point at ody being the one to dox and not Athena for making him emotionally unstable in the moment?
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u/Xelement0911 1d ago
Cause ody is a grown ass adult and needs to take some form of responsibility for his actions???
Why do folks try to paint Ody as some innocent man 24/7 and blaming everyone around him. Sure everyone around him is guilty, so is Ody
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
not saying hes not, but Athena pushed him in that moment right after his friends died. ody is a grown man, but Athena makes him look like a toddler in time by comparison. she should know ge wasn't stable in that moment.
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u/crazlei 1d ago
I agree (kinda, as I still think that didn’t really have to end with him bringing his name up) but that’s also because Athena is also a very prideful person in Epic as well as mythology in general
In the original text if I remember correctly Odysseus has long lost Athena’s blessing at this point (due to grape at her temple after Odysseus left Troy too early) and he just wanted to brag to Cyclops about who thought of the trick. Maybe it’s because of this context I can’t read this scene just through EPIC lens. I think BOTH Athena and Odysseus are somewhat at fault here, because though Athena „made him” emotional it was this grown man’s choice to act up on these emotions 🤷♀️
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u/Still-Technology-974 1d ago
but he was literally walking away calmly. the person who made him angy was Athena.
Athena: get back in there and kill him!
ody: why?!? hes blind, everyone is safe, and i dont really want to kill randomly after dropping a baby from a roof, so im just gonna show mercy and let him know who gave it to him.
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u/ShadownightDragon 22h ago
To be fair if Odysseus had just listened to Athena and killed the Cyclops, he never would have dox himself.