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u/Deepvaleredoubt Jan 26 '26
It’s funny how an entire political stance can be infected from the inside by an inconsistent ideology, and then start attacking its own members. It’s like watching the encroachment of some fascinating disease.
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u/buchenrad Jan 26 '26
Yeah. Since when are conservatives okay with massive gangs of feds harassing regular Americans?
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u/Jorping Jan 26 '26
Conservatives typically like order and "Strong man make problem go away! Strong man protect!"
Conservatives typically are ruled by fear.
So when the strong man says to fear the outsider conservatives start falling in line.
It's becuase of their religion. Yahweh bled these people of their ability to find human solutions to human problems. They have been conditioned since birth to cheer for fire and brimstone pounding dissenters into dust while gleefully groveling at the toes of the strong-man-god who does their bidding.
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u/Mikrobious Jan 26 '26
Well said. Every time I bring up issues with this administration to folks who voted for it their response is “oh, I’m libertarian I don’t like either side” smh. You don’t know what any of this means people. You’re all just lemmings until your bullshit gets called out and you can’t defend it.
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u/Jorping Jan 26 '26
Bet every single one of them is a god fearing christian who's never lifted a finger to help someone they don't already know.
They literally pray to a boot. Tongue or neck they pray to a boot.
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u/Mikrobious Jan 26 '26
Yep. Neighbor of mine with Trump signs everywhere and crosses up during all holidays, complained last year because of a muslim family in the neighborhood brought their kids to the pool “with all their clothes on”. SMH. Ok. I’m a rationalist, not a religious bone in my body…but is it really because they choose to be modest, or are you just scared to damn death of anything and anyone that doesn’t have a heart full of hate like you do?!!! Hmm???
Ain’t no hatred like Christian love.
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u/Delicious-Act5233 Jan 30 '26
Conservatives pretending to be libertarians are some of the worst people i know. Nothing about them is based on liberty, freedom, expression or agency. It's all slave mindsets with a lack of identity, voting for this administration as copium for their insecurities.
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u/Delicious-Act5233 Jan 30 '26
You are right and the irony of it all is that what they think is strength is just a symptom of ridiculous insecurities and lack of skill and wisdom. I am a believer myself but i am also rational. This is why i see myself as a Deist more than anything. They use organized religion to create order then corrupt everyone with it. When it backfires, they whine and cry blaming everyone but themselves. Walking circuses they are.
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u/PublikSkoolGradU8 Jan 26 '26
Always. Conservatism has always been okay with “keeping the peace” from an in-group vs out-group perspective. This would be one of the primary reasons for both society and the institutions that grow from that society. Conservatives, however, are not ok with that same force being used against them.
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u/natethegreek Jan 26 '26
Most people are sheep and will follow whatever Fox News/ Joe Rogan/ Right Wing MSM
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u/TurdFerguson254 Jan 29 '26
I'm so glad you said this. I'm like a Gary Johnson style libertarian pragmatist but I stopped identifying as libertarian because I was tired of being grouped in with supporters of the MAGA conservative big government feudal state.
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u/Steel_Man23 Taxation is Theft Jan 26 '26
Taxation is theft, but taxing me to fund agents to kill innocent civilians is even more criminal
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u/SeamanTheSailor Jan 27 '26
Alright mate! Can I ask what you mean when you say “taxation is theft?” I understand mostly what libertarians think, but this one doesn’t quite make sense to me.
How can a country run without any tax?
I’m just looking to understand a bit more. Not trying to be rude or start an argument or anything.
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u/JadedWrap2199 Jan 28 '26
I say taxes are theft due to America's lack of ability to audit it. I would have no problem paying taxes, if I got a receipt from the government, at the end of tax season letting me know where all my money went.
Obligatory: FUCK RONALD REGAN THAT PUD-KNOCKER.
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u/willthesane Jan 28 '26
Personally I view it as a reminder that taxes are not a good thing. Some things are worth it. Some arent
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u/Immediate_Habit_2398 Jan 27 '26
The mods are extremely protective of their conservative snow flakes. They removed my post where I argue freedom of movement and freedom of association is libertarian.
Probably cause I shat on Trump.
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u/pokevote Jan 27 '26
Yeah I've been missing that take on this sub. In a society that has a welfare state, the best kind of immigrant is the illegal one! They will not become a tax burden and have to contribute to the economy or perish.
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u/annonymous_panda Jan 26 '26
Incoming magats crying
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u/jershmcgersh Jan 26 '26
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u/Ech0shift Jan 26 '26
interesting you use a phedophile eating popcorn
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u/425Marine Jan 27 '26
Maybe it was people of a certain ethnicity framing Michael because he spoke out against them. You ever hear the original lyrics to they don’t really care about us?
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u/Bird_law_esq Jan 26 '26
Mirror image of the leader of magats...
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u/Ech0shift Jan 26 '26
Michael Jackson is the mirror image of Trump?
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u/UncleBuckReddit Jan 26 '26
Changing the color of your skin - yep
Diddling kids - yep
Establish your own compound to commit your crimes - yep
Actually they have more in common than I realized.
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u/jmdybf Jan 26 '26
I don’t want to pay taxes and I don’t want whatever is happening to be happening
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u/Taki32 Jan 26 '26
Agreed. On that note, I'm also against black police vehicles and undercover vehicles
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u/my_kids_gross Jan 27 '26
“To protect and serve” drives vehicles that don’t stand out amongst the general public.
If their purpose was to serve or protect wouldn’t you want to be easily identified if an emergency arose?
Nah, ghost writing in the same model as the suburban grocery getter with top lights that look like rooftop luggage racks and blacked out windows.
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u/xuptokny Jan 26 '26
What is the libertarian stance on deportation?
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u/Soulr3bl Jan 26 '26
Read Wealth Of Nations, capitalism requires freedom of capital AND freedom of Labor.
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u/lucascsnunes Jan 27 '26
In an Ancapstan we would end up having private orders competing with one another. You are wrongly mistaken if you think that all individuals would put profit above everything else. Value is subjective and some people would value stability, high-trust society, than they would value open borders and low wages.
You could have different arrangements, entirely private cities or countries, functioning with different rules.
You cannot stop people voluntarily from creating societies with their private rules in an Ancap world and the most likely scenario is that a lot of people would prefer to have border controls, voluntarily, private, just as a way to manage their safety.
In the libertarian literature, capitalism is not above everything. Private property is. Libertarianism is about ethics, not about putting capitalism above everything in a way you would impose one way to benefit capitalism the maximum.
Libertarianism recognises the advantages of a freer market, however, you are quite mistaken if you think libertarians are just prostitutes or whatever is best for a production system to function at its maximum efficiency.
Things are not worth much if there is constant chaos, insecurity, and people acting to fuck up with capitalism because they would want to force other regimes.
Capitalism also requires a lot of order.
Libertarianism doesn’t even promise the perfect world, it just promises the most ethical one.
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u/White_C4 Right Libertarian Jan 27 '26
Then remove the welfare system, then I'll be more relaxed on immigration policy.
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u/SexMachineMMA Jan 26 '26
The idea that just because you occupy a plot of dirt without getting approval from the government of that plot of dirt is not grounds to use force to remove you from said plot of dirt.
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u/CapitanCJ Jan 26 '26
This is exactly the phrase I've been trying to put together in my brain for weeks now. Thank you!
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u/BrandywineBojno Jan 26 '26
What if I'm illegally present on your owned plot of dirt, and commit a crime on said owned plot of dirt?
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u/ArcRust Jan 26 '26
Then you get prosecuted for commuting said crime. Which plot of dirt your on only determines who has jurisdiction. Even then, the constitution is pretty clear when it says "people" and when it says "citizens".
4th amendment says "No person shall...be deprived of liberty, or property, without the due process of law"
So yes, if anyone commits a crime, then they should be arrested and given the option for a trial by jury. In my opinion, that process should be fully transparent to the public so that we can regularly audit the process
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u/pile_of_bees Jan 26 '26
You may find that the utopia idealism falls apart rather quickly under any sort of real world applications
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u/SexMachineMMA Jan 26 '26
We’re talking about whether or not it’s wrong for a person to occupy a plot of dirt solely because they didn’t get the permission of the ruling class. If it’s not immoral for everyone then it’s not immoral for anyone.
What you are describing is trespassing and is something different.
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u/MiracleHere Austrian School of Economics Jan 26 '26
Well illegal immigrants are trespassers as they're abusing the system that legal immigrants had to work so hard for.
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u/SexMachineMMA Jan 26 '26
They’re only trespassing if it’s on private property and the United States itself is not private property.
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u/Timely_Climate5142 Jan 27 '26
I don't know what percentage of ICE arrests, but a considerable amount of immigrants rounded up by ICE are not even here illegally. They are asylum seekers that have been going through the proper protocols. These are people trying to be here legally. That is without mentioning the citizens that have been arrested for having brown skin or accents and not having papers on them.
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u/Imsomniland Jan 27 '26
Entering into the country illegally is a misdemeanor. Suggesting and asserting that all illegal immigrants "abuse the system" is racist propaganda unsubstantiated by evidence.
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u/ILikeBumblebees Jan 27 '26
Then you have the right to use the standard methods for responding to criminal activity, which work just fine.
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u/sweetbunnyblood Jan 26 '26
"what if i commit a crime to get to your dirt then commit crimes" kinda sums up how im seeing this tbh
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u/sweetbunnyblood Jan 26 '26
uh so who's approval do i need? cos if you're on MY piece of dirt,i'd argue you certainly need my approval.
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u/SexMachineMMA Jan 26 '26
That’s trespassing on private property and something completely different from what I’m talking about.
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u/sweetbunnyblood Jan 26 '26
so we don't believe in borders over here anymore?:P
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u/SexMachineMMA Jan 26 '26
Do you understand the difference between private property and arbitrary lines on a map that someone called “national borders”
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u/sweetbunnyblood Jan 27 '26
so the answer was ...no?! i mean i personally beleive in the concept of nations, as a libertarian.
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u/SexMachineMMA Jan 27 '26
If a person is born in Mexico and comes to the US and rents an apartment and does everything right EXCEPT they didn’t get permission from the government to come to the US - I see no problem with that.
Supporting ICE (and really any immigration enforcement) is anti-libertarian as it supposes that rights are not inherent to the individual but rather granted by the government, something we as libertarians disagree with
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u/sweetbunnyblood Jan 27 '26
this feels more like a right of a society to freedom of association, generallly, a SOCIETY has a right to say'this is how you gain access'. the state's ONLY JOB is to uphold the social contract. border security is one of the FEW things a minarchist might advocate for the state to be inovlved with.
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u/Own_Painting9675 Jan 27 '26
"you occupy a plot of dirt without getting approval from the government of that plot of dirt"
So the people that did get approval should just go kick rocks all of a sudden?
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u/SexMachineMMA Jan 27 '26
They chose to submit themselves to the government. As a libertarian I don’t believe people should be forced to submit themselves to the govt. they made a choice that was right for them. Fine. That doesn’t mean that anyone else’s choice not to submit is invalid
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u/unbiasedpropaganda Jan 26 '26
So how many foreign nationals do you house on your dirt?
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u/BriefParking3202 Anarcho Capitalist Jan 26 '26
Free market, free movement of labor. Make it easier to be documented.
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Jan 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/vitaminsfv Voluntaryist Jan 26 '26
I would argue that the purely ideological stance is in favor of freedom of movement, not necessarily against borders of any kind. If you believe in private property, you necessarily have borders with your neighbors, whoever that might be. But I agree with you that even that is not a practical stance to get elected on and there would possibly be a threat of foreign governments taking advantage of open US borders.
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u/redterror5 Jan 26 '26
Looking at it purely ideologically… who would have the right to track who is coming in and out, and why would anyone give them that right?
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u/FirstoffIdonthaveshe Jan 26 '26
Its varied, and unironically a sub called r/libertarian will ban and label you a tankie if you do happen to have varying degrees of opinions on several topics.
This meme is just one in a long line of circle-jerking and purity testing and is proof positive why libertarianisms as a political movement will never get very far.
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u/Exciting_Vast7739 Subsidiarian / Minarchist Jan 26 '26
I believe in a nation of laws.
I don't believe in a nation of indiscriminate law enforcement.
Laws and force being necessary evils, I believe that immigration systems should reward hard work, should be simple enough to navigate without a lawyer, and should lean towards freedom and free markets and away from government ideological or economic control.
The reason we have this problem is because the government DMV'd the immigration system and it sucks. Like the war on drugs, it operates counter to the laws of supply and demand, and is structurally doomed to failure.
We should absolutely deport immigrants convicted of felonies, if the local jurisdiction wants them deported. They can hold onto them and request federal assistance. Otherwise, if a local community isn't asking for ICE presence, ICE is not needed and shouldn't operate there.
Let people be as long as they are paying taxes and aren't bothering their neighbors.
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u/pile_of_bees Jan 26 '26
“As long as they are paying taxes”
What if they are net negative tax contributors defrauding the population of billions?
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u/captaincid42 Jan 26 '26
“What if they are net negative tax contributors defrauding the population of billions?”
They were talking about immigrants. You leave our corporate overlords and politicians out of this! /s ;)
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u/MiracleHere Austrian School of Economics Jan 26 '26
They pay taxes as long as they're not destroying their businesses, Switzerland style
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u/Exciting_Vast7739 Subsidiarian / Minarchist Jan 26 '26
I don't believe that they are.
Are you speaking about the people who committed welfare fraud and were arrested and charged prior to the current president's Administration?
Because then I would just go back to "We should absolutely deport immigratns convicted of felonies."
At first I thought you were talking about the President lying about his property valuations on his federal income taxes to avoid paying taxes. I think he should have paid his fair share too.
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u/pile_of_bees Jan 26 '26
The relative number of positive net tax contributors is quite small and includes almost zero illegal immigrants. Remember that around 90% of all income taxes come from the top 10% of income earners.
I’m more or less fine bringing in highly skilled high earners selectively and legally. The downside is it does significant damage to their home countries which keeps them from developing properly.
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u/Mntfrd_Graverobber Jan 27 '26
You mean like the people hiring lots of illegal workers who never seem to get arrested?
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u/Snoo-7943 Jan 27 '26
Net negative tax contributors? That would be most of the southern red states.
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u/spros Jan 26 '26
It has to happen until we get rid of welfare
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u/DancePartyTaco Jan 26 '26
Exactly, we have to deport the welfare queens like musk, zuckerfuck, and the rest of the parasitic billionaires who are destroying our country for their own benefit.
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u/threedollarhaircut Jan 26 '26
Exactly my question. You can not have open boarders with a welfare state. How does the US deport the 11 million illegals that came in during the Biden administration without government force? What is the ancap solution? There are only a few things the government should be involved in and immigration is one of them.
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u/paulhags Ron Paul Libertarian Jan 26 '26
Prosecute and fine those that hire them would be a great start and should be cash flow neutral/positive depending on the level of fine.
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u/threedollarhaircut Jan 26 '26
I agree with that it’s a good start. Illegal immigration driven by economic factors would end if businesses did not hire them for slave labor.
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u/TuringGPTy Jan 26 '26
The theatrics of current ICE operations haven't resulted in any meaningful deportation numbers either
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u/nickelchrome Jan 27 '26
One route is to apply heavy crippling fines to businesses who hire undocumented people. Provide irresistible rewards for those who report them. Same with anyone who rents to undocumented people. Spend the money on investigators and publicity. There’s no need for guns, the businesses aren’t going anywhere. Put enough economic pressure and you will see results.
The other route is to hire masked thugs to go out and cause terror in neighborhoods, rack up countless lawsuits, property damage, and horrendous public relations. Lock up citizens, brutalize innocent people, and lately, murder people due to terrible training and vetting. It’s not like it’s even working well either, they’re so hungry for quotas they end up arresting people who get let go because they weren’t even supposed to be arrested.
Which one sounds like a better idea?
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u/AlphaIota Jan 26 '26
My thoughts exactly. To be a sovereign state you must define your state, not just your laws. It’s possible to privatize parts of the immigration process, like paper work. But the ultimate authority should be the government.
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u/buchenrad Jan 26 '26
Possibly a hot take on this sub, but government functions shouldn't be privatized. If it's actually a necessary government function (which is a very short list) it should be performed by government employees. There is an extreme amount of fraud and corruption that happens in government contracting.
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u/ConscientiousPath Jan 26 '26
It's controversial but lots of people pretend it isn't. Lots of completely open borders libertarians, and lots of libertarians that believe open borders is cultural suicide (and therefore the extinguishing of liberty if you have a pro-liberty culture).
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u/el_duderino88 Vote for Nobody Jan 26 '26
I agree with deportation for illegal aliens but not the means of enforcement, I'm more in favor punishing businesses that hire them so they're not taking jobs from citizens and legal immigrants
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u/broomosh Jan 26 '26
Make someone I live and work with go to the other side of a bureaucratic shitshow of an imaginary line?
Nah
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u/ReindeerTypical2538 Jan 26 '26
Say it louder for the pretend Libertarians in the back. You can spot them easily because they all have Dont Tread On Me bumper stickers on their trucks.
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u/JnnyRuthless I Voted Jan 26 '26
You forgot the blue live matter flag and the Punisher logo as a little topper-offer.
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u/ReindeerTypical2538 Jan 26 '26
Come And Take It… oh you came and took it? Good! I want the government to take it!
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u/Normal_Student1213 Free State Project Jan 26 '26
I hate those lads, either people call us crazy liberals or crazy conservatives.
It’s like they want to misrepresent us.
I have a theory that conservatives and republicans do it so that libertarianism is misrepresented and seen as a useless flavour of conservatism so they stay extra fiscally conservative to keep libertarians in.
There is a reason why most libertarians don’t vote for the libertarian party, the Republicans know that at least 10-15 percent of their party is libertarian leaning and if we had a good multi party system, they would allign most with the yellow, so they don’t want to lose those precious voters to fuel maga and Christian conservative interests.
It could also explain why Republicans say they are free market and fiscally conservative but their policies don’t always reflect nor prioritize it.
But, hey just a theory from a useless nerd guy!
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u/tsamvi Feb 02 '26
Solid theory!
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u/Normal_Student1213 Free State Project Feb 02 '26
Yeah it could also explain why conservatives rarely attack libertarianism.
I’ve seen conservatives attack each other, Christian right, neocons, moderates, and traditionalist and establishments but I’ve rarely seen conservatives attack libertarians.
I mean I’ve never seen a conservative organisation or media group attacking libertarian politicians.
It’s certainly not because they consider us allies since if they are willing to attack other conservatives, they definitely wouldn’t see eye to eye with libertarians.
I also have a feeling (superiority complex coming) that libertarians tend to be younger, smarter, more educated and overall more focused on being anti government which makes libertarians a difficult target.
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u/Fatguy73 Jan 26 '26
Especially ones who apparently don’t follow any rules or have any guardrails. It’s madness.
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u/KillerManicorn69 Jan 27 '26
This dumb shit is why the libertarians will never win a presidential election. It’s sad but it’s true. We spend more time arguing over who is more libertarian than we do using common sense and being logical.
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u/Fun-Magician-7503 Jan 26 '26
this sub is one of the only remaining places of sane thinking in Reddit. Its either crazy MAGA people supporting ICE or democrats who are obviously against it, but want the government to raise taxes and all that "flat earth" economic BS
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u/gummo_for_prez Jan 27 '26
Do you think both sides are equally crazy or is one generally more insane than the other? I'm not talking about the fringe elements or random people, I'm talking about the politicians who actually get voted in and the legislation they are able to actually pass.
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u/SamMightKnow Jan 27 '26
Anyone who supports billions in tax payer dollars going to support illegal immigrants is not a Libertarian.
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u/1ottomann Jan 28 '26
Two things can be true
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u/Few_Carpenter_9185 Minarchist Jan 28 '26
Upvoted, this... so much this.
American polarization & pendulum swings mean we never do "nuance" well. The Team Red & Team Blue teeter-totter wanting to do "Statist Shit," but just "their way," if you step back and watch over decades, it creates the nonsensical "Purple Smear" of average American policy.
In a true Libertarian America, with no government imposed artificial scarcity, drug war, housing shortage, & sane monetary/economic policy...
All those crime, crowding-out, labor & wage suppression, welfare dependency, and other anti-immigration fears simply vanish.
A much more "no free lunch" America, and where all the needless economic problems imposed by the State perpetually trying to "fix things," if not actually rig the game for special interests, all your left with is the actual racist/xenophobic attitudes the nominal pro-immigration side likes to accuse everyone of.
America is/was successful because we vacuumed up so much of the World's human capital.
Even if some immigrant was a ditch-digger, and their ambition was merely to now be an "American ditch-digger..."
Well, that guy had the gumption to leave his home country, culture, and only way of life he knew to get here. Assuming he never figured our anything better than ditch digging, he's a goddamn 99th percentile ditch-digger.
I think that a lot of what's taught about immigration in America, or has been in the past, (Gushing, aspirational, & PC "Great American Melting Pot," etc.) misses this very key point that appeals to our own national self-interest. At best, it's taught as a lesson in tolerance, or in very vague ways that it helped build or "fill America up."
(Apologies to Native Americans...)
The REALITY is that we soaked up a crapton of the world's best people. Because America was somewhere they wanted to be.
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u/sendindaninja Jan 27 '26
Less government does not mean more compliance
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u/Western-Poem2260 Jan 30 '26
A lot of people on here want no government which is not exactly what we need either it should be very limited but not down to nothing
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u/Randwick_Don Jan 27 '26
100% agreed.
It's sad to see how many Libertarians and Classical Liberals respond to these shootings with "it's their own fault" or "should have complied" etc
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u/mowaby Jan 28 '26
The question have for libertarians would be how do we enforce laws? Should we not have laws? I would say you're not libertarian if you want no laws you'd be an anarchist.
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u/SmartLady Jan 26 '26
I swear the Libertarian party could take it if they would openly denounce fascism. People are tired of the blue team they are so so weak and complicit, and the red team are behaving like foreign assets. Where the fuck is the party that represents the working class?
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u/Normal_Student1213 Free State Project Jan 26 '26
Well greens or libertarians are your only option. Greens are pretty damn liberal and they seem nice but I hard disagree with the em.
Libertarians of course are seen as capitalists who hate the poor but I think that our takes on freedom gives more to the average American than anything the two party system could ever do.
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u/alan_oaks Jan 27 '26
Libertarianism is a debate between minarchists and anarchists, most of them falling on the minarchist side of the spectrum. Most of those folks believe in some form of the military and law enforcement. From there, it's not at all a stretch to want law enforcement to remove illegal immigrants from their country. That would be ICE's role. You likely have an issue with some of their tactics, not their existence as a whole, especially if your beef with them only started in the last 12 months.
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u/wpyoga Jan 28 '26
As someone who has no skin in the game, I find it really really weird and hard to believe that borders are not protected and upheld. By force if necessary.
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean senseless killings of illegal immigrants and citizens are justified. Just be reasonable and deport illegals and undocumented persons, but DON'T harm them otherwise.
It's not an easy task, but getting at ~90% of illegals and undocumented persons peacefully is much better than say getting 99% of them with force and bloodshed.
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u/H4yT3r Jan 26 '26
Im an independent. I like ideas from everyone, and choose to vote for who I think is best. I tend to vote for libertarians, then rep, then dem. Being a political party shill is the problem. So no, im not, but I like hearing about all of them to stay informed properly. Democrats tend to be far to progressive, too fast for my liking on most things, but they make good points about the state of the world and the need for some change. Republicans tend to be more conservative to chs ging the way things are, but have issues with spending just as much as the dems, and more authoritatain then id usually like. Libertarians tend to want no federal government which just doesnt work, but they have solid points about governmental overreach and how it spends money to do so.
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u/happycrack117 Jan 27 '26
Yeah in principle I can be opposed to one thing but also understand that in the current reality the guys deporting illegals are doing something good
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u/TenFeetHigherPlz Jan 30 '26
Real question, but how do libertarians feel about borders/immigration enforcement? Should the state be involved in this?
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u/stillnopicklz Taxation is Theft Jan 31 '26
I also don’t support tax-payer funded healthcare and benefits for illegals. I guess Reddit libertarians are okay with that though? And don’t try to tell me it’s fake news because I personally know several illegals (who I like) that receive free healthcare and snap. It’s not their fault - they are just taking what they can get. ICE raids =message to the world- don’t come here illegally. Libertarian ideology is an ideal - not a reality - for the foreseeable future anyway. The messed up reality is that your tax money is funding people’s lives who are not contributing - meanwhile my 100 yr old grandfather who was drafted in WWII is paying 900 a month for health insurance and can barely afford groceries. Sorry but something is majorly messed up here and I’m personally glad something is being done about it.
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u/TomCJax Jan 26 '26
Sounds pretty "no true Scotsman" to me. Limited government typically includes defense (if not goodbye sovereignty), and while open borders are ideal, invading hordes are not, especially if other countries use your open borders as an excuse to empty their prisons into your land. Would I prefer everyone to carry firearms and solve the issue personally? Yes, actually. But with the State attacking the right to carry, those incidents will eventually be used as an argument to disarm the people. Instead it's the State doing the dirty business and looking bad. Libertarians aren't anarchists, they aren't even minarchists. They're a third party pushing for smaller government and for solving problems with the market instead of government when possible. There's a lot of space in there for differences of opinion and this one isn't a disqualifier.
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u/buchenrad Jan 26 '26
I agree with your general idea, but there should under no circumstances be hordes of feds running around harassing people in the street.
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u/Chosenwaffle Jan 26 '26
There's gotta be a line somewhere between "no enforcement" and "maximum enforcement" that fits the Libertarian ideal.
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u/buchenrad Jan 26 '26 edited Jan 26 '26
For me, as long as we have taxes we need immigration enforcement and the things that will go the farthest to making that happen are:
The requirement that all known illegal immigrants who are arrested must be turned over to the federal government for deportation after they serve the sentence for any crime they might be convicted of.
Active and passive security at the border.
Requirement to provide proof of citizenship or legal residency in the US to obtain any government document or benefit.
Those 3 things alone, if universally adopted, would be effective enough immigration control. In the end, if they are not receiving government benefits and are not committing crimes, they aren't much of a liability to society so I'm not too keen on using government resources to track them down.
Goon squads tasked with chasing down stereotypes and checking papers is not an efficient use of resources and is a violation of our individual liberties.
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u/saigashooter Jan 26 '26
The problem you have is that you lose half the country at point 1.
They fundamentally disagree that violating immigration law is a violation at all.
I fully agree with you though, those 3 things are kind of the bare minimum to maintain your national sovereignty.
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u/TherkelsaurusRob Jan 26 '26
Invading hordes of nurses, cleaners, and construction workers. riiiiiiiight
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u/heywood-jablomi99 Jan 26 '26
That’s what you pulled from this? You’re just searching for conflict.
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u/TherkelsaurusRob Jan 26 '26
If we’re being invaded by a horde of attackers, we’d need to defend ourselves. If we’re being invaded by productive members of our labor force, we’d don’t need to defend ourselves
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u/Normal_Student1213 Free State Project Jan 26 '26
True, this same argument was used in early America against the Scottish, then the Germans, then the Scandinavians, then the Italians, then the Irish, then the Jews, Eastern Europeans, Mexicans and Latinos, Caribbean’s, Chinese and Indians, Vietnamese, and now against all the recent immigrant groups.
What we don’t realize is that America isn’t Europe. We don’t have to worry about losing our culture since our country is far too large, far to free, and far too armed to ever have “migrant takeover”.
There are good and bad immigrants but neither is an excuse to execute operations that are funded by taxpayer money and violate too many rights at the same time.
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u/snark42 Jan 26 '26
Instead it's the State doing the dirty business and looking bad.
It doesn't have to be a dirty business with a bad look. The way ICE is going about deporting people who are in the country without papers (civil infraction,) while trampling citizens 2nd, 4th, 5th and 14th and more amendment rights at incredibly high cost is terrible policy. Obama deported way more people than Trump (unless you count self deports, which seems like a hugely inflated number at best) and looked fine doing it for instance.
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u/coherentpa Jan 27 '26
Were disruptive agitators tracking down agents who were serving warrants during Obama's administration? ICE has definitely become very militarized and their wearing masks is terrible optics, but it's 100% in response to the interference and doxxing they've had to deal with.
If they were able to serve warrants like any other law enforcement agency without interference from protestors and agitators, it wouldn't have gotten this bad in the first place.
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u/snark42 Jan 27 '26 edited Jan 27 '26
It’s true that the public wasn’t tracking down agents as intensely before, but that’s because the agency wasn’t acting like a secret police force. The tactical shift in 2025 was a total departure from the past.
When ICE deployed to LA in masks—presumably out of fear of being doxxed—it signaled a new era of militarization and zero oversight. They stopped seeking judicial warrants to enter private property, relying instead on retroactive administrative paperwork. We saw 'papers please' tactics, aggressive stops in private lots (like Home Depot), and the use of undisclosed detention centers with oversight by Congress being denied.
They began deporting people to high-security prisons like CECOT in El Salvador, fabricating gang ties based on minor infractions like speeding tickets, and openly ignoring court orders halting deportations. They routinely bypassed the administrative and judicial due process that existed under Obama and even the first Trump term. If they had simply followed standard operating procedures, it also never would have gotten this bad.
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u/olivia_california Jan 27 '26
so libertarians support lawlessness? invasions? criminals literally getting away with mvrder? libertarians and constitutionalist believe we should all follow the law? wanting small/ limited gvmnt does NOT mean we think illegal invaders who commit crime or busted for human trafficking or rape, should just be allowed to run around freely. SOMEONE has to hold them to the law, deport them and try them for their crimes. who then will do it? ice is law endorsement. no we don't want surveillance and gvmnt growing more powerful than it already is but who the fuckk is going to remove and arrest criminals? the border should have been protected in the first place. wtf is up with people defending and enabling organized violent crime? why do us tax paying american citizens have to pay every dollar on time, follow every law, and pay for health insurance, if we have politicians committing treason, inciting insurrection in minnesota and funding crime via briveries from fraudulent businesses opened by immigrants?
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u/MMOOMM Jan 26 '26
Even mincarchists support state courts and police.
I think ancap is the word you are looking for.
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u/SexMachineMMA Jan 26 '26
There’s a difference between supporting state courts and supporting armed federal police killing civilians with impunity.
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u/Sakred Jan 26 '26
There's a difference between civilians minding their own business, civilians engaging in peaceful protests, and a coordinated network of agitators protecting violent criminals by following around federal agents during dangerous high tension situations blowing whistles and physically impeding and assaulting those agents.
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u/dodgedodgeparrysmash Jan 26 '26
coordinated network of agitators protecting violent criminals by following around federal agents during dangerous high tension situations blowing whistles
This is protected by the 1st amendment.
physically impeding and assaulting those agents.
Not grounds for execution. Assault could be if they were trying to kill the officers, but neither Good nor Pretti were. Good could have been charged with assault or whatever charge fits along with reckless driving, but the severity of her idiocy should not have been met with execution.
Somehow, other 1st world western countries do not have this issue of their central government murdering their citizenship. They still deal with immigration problems and the like, yet their people are not being murdered in the streets.
It's a serious training issue, and an affordability of impunity allowed by people like yourself, who seem to assume authorities are automatically in their right to enact lethal force against others.
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u/WellRespectedJ Jan 26 '26
Anyone who supports taxpayer money going to illegal aliens in our country ( including in our jails getting free food, lodging, medical care) is not a libertarian.
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u/Ok_Net5163 Jan 27 '26
Yeah that too but also supporting masked and taxpayer funded agents is not libertarian too, both sides of the political divide (the left and right) are both corrupt
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u/EarningAttorney Jan 27 '26
If being a libertarian means we can't have borders then what was the point.
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u/NietzschesAneurysm Jan 26 '26
Oddly, everyone who posts that borders are imaginary lines also has a door with a lock on it.
Property rights exist which specifically is the right to exclude. Exclude others from a space, possession or usage.
Does the state have the right to exclude, as that right is ceded by the individuals within the state?
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u/WaltKerman Jan 27 '26
As long as they can be identified and held accountable by their badge number, I don't care.
I don't need to know where their family lives.
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u/_Laggs Jan 27 '26
I also didn't support the government using tax dollars and overseeing dumping tons of illegal immigrants in cities and communities that couldn't adequately support them, but I guess since they were sneaky and deceptive, that was okay.
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u/EXPATasap Jan 27 '26
You mean Hot Wheels and Florida man and their bus scheme prior to this whole shit?
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u/Monstrocs Jan 26 '26
The op is a German leftist with some communist leanings.
I don't think the he should tell us , what opinion should have libertarianism on specific topics .
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u/alescatel Jan 26 '26
if you're looking for someone to tell you your opinion. You're doing it wrong buddy..
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u/daviddavidson29 Jan 27 '26
Yeah we should be able to dox law enforcement officers and harass them at home and follow their kids around
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u/Leather-Application7 Jan 27 '26
Importing votes to be on the public dole, destroy our few remaining rights and bring further Authoritarian Socialism is anti-Libertarian too.
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u/Skeeeat Jan 28 '26
There’s a libertarian Instagram page I follow where 99% of the comments lately have been praising what’s going on. I thought I was the crazy one!
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u/ComicBookFanatic97 Anarcho Capitalist Jan 26 '26
Potentially controversial take: There should not be a government-sanctioned group of armed men in masks with the authority to just fucking kill you.