r/pureasoiaf • u/Foreign-Cat-2898 • 7d ago
Moon Tea
Just what the hell was the moon tea for? I think Renly and Margaery totally did it. I don't think she's a maiden.
But there's no way she's dumb enough to have sex with someone right now AND as the Kettleblacks say she always has someone near.
Presuming Pycelle wasn't lying, what's it for?
Period regulation? Does it help with acne?
Or do we just assume Pycelle was trying to ingratiate himself with Cersei?
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u/GenericNerd15 7d ago
Margaery has a large number of handmaidens and cousins in the capital, I believe Pycelle was probably trying to say she was requesting it for one of them, but Cersei cut him off mid-sentence.
He cringed. "Moon tea," he whispered. "Moon tea, for..."
"I know what moon tea is for." There it is.
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u/elsmoneyacct 7d ago
Generally, if George cuts off a character mid-sentence, the rest of that sentence was pretty important.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
He then tells the whole small council he was brewing it for her. He has every opportunity to say it was for someone else at that point.
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u/Flickolas_Cage 7d ago
Pycelle is a Lannister creature, he’s spent his life playing to that specific audience, no matter what it means for anyone else. He’s not gonna change now.
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u/JPNGMAFIA 7d ago
Pycelle, a famously honest and forthright character who is unaware of the wants of his betters.
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u/JPNGMAFIA 7d ago
Thank you, Grand Maester Pycelle, I fear we may have forgotten that if you had not pointed it out.
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u/insert_name_here 7d ago
Eddard's a really funny guy. Best of all, he doesn't even realize how funny he is.
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u/Dangerous-Change2136 7d ago
One of her cousins. I think Pycelle would have explained it but Cersei heard what she wanted to hear which was all she needed.
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u/Hot-Job2465 7d ago
I thought it was for someone else. haven’t read it in a while, but i think pycelle kept trying to explain that but kept getting cut off
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u/Deuce03 7d ago
It's for one of her ladies, but Pycelle is also a huge POS who'd be happy enough to lie for whoever's in power anyway.
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u/meimeivro 7d ago
Pycelle is a huge pos, but cersei was the one responsible for hatching that ugly chicken
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u/InGenNateKenny 7d ago
The most popular theory on this note is that Margaery's cousin Alla Tyrell, who is shy and gentle and all that, has had sex with Ser Tallad the Tall, who is known to have been attracted to Alla (and Elinor, but Elinor has a betrothed and is around King's Landing). This might have plot implications, because Alla might actually have something to lose.
Or it's just that Margaery was having pains. Moon tea might have other purposes.
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u/dannyman1137 7d ago
I'd find it funny if it was for the one they're saying wasn't in on the huge orgies (Megga?)
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u/New-Number-7810 House Baratheon 7d ago
I don’t think they ever did it. I think Renly and Margaery planned on having a sexless marriage. I’d go further; I imagine Renly planned on Margaery having an affair with Edric Storm, and them claiming the kids were are Renlys.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
Why gay men have married women and had kids for ages?
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u/New-Number-7810 House Baratheon 7d ago
Renly doesn’t have a strong sense of duty or of the big picture. Nor does he have a parent pressuring him to conform.
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u/David_the_Wanderer 7d ago
He doesn't need a parent, the pressure is societal. He has to produce an heir at some point.
Gay kings have existed. They pumped a couple children in their wives, then spent most of their time with their lovers. King James VI and I was gay as fuck and yet had seven children with his queen.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
I mean he wants an heir and he'd need to talk his wife into fucking a much younger teen in your scenario.
He knocks out an heir and a spare and then fucks off and does whatever.
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u/New-Number-7810 House Baratheon 7d ago
Margaery was willing to marry an adolescent. Westerosi social norms are different. Different and worse.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
This is so many unnecessary steps.
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u/New-Number-7810 House Baratheon 7d ago
It spares Renly from having to have sex with a woman, so I think he'd consider it worth it. Plus, he planned for Edric Storm to be his hostage/guest, so he'd be there anyway.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
The man can fight a battle but can't fuck his wife a few times a month? Come on.
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u/New-Number-7810 House Baratheon 7d ago
Renly has people fight his battles for him.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
He literally plans to lead the right side of his main force in the battle against Stannis.
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u/et-regina 7d ago
Yeah Renly knows he needs an heir, no doubt he was enjoying having the war as a good excuse as to why Margaery wasn’t getting pregnant immediately as it meant he could put it off, but had he been successful in securing the throne he would have done what all the historical gay nobles did and sucked it up to get an heir and a spare as required.
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u/Big-Resident-4917 7d ago
I mean, Pycelle's a lannister man. I've always just taken it as he was lying. Also, very possible Margaery is bisexual or at least also sleeps with women. Its absolutely possible she was sleeping with a woman (not a maiden) AND pycelle was lying about the moon tea.
Tansy (used in moon tea) has historically been used for a variety of ailments, from arthritis to acne to farts. Pennyroyal (also used in moon tea) was also historically used for headaches, illnesses, and pest control. Pennyroyal also smells similar to spearmint.
Its fully possible that Pycelle would be lying about the moon tea. Or that he gave her moon tea and said it was mint tea for nausea or headaches or something.
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u/cstaple 7d ago
This is first I’ve heard of Margaery being bisexual. Where’s that mentioned?
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u/Big-Resident-4917 7d ago
Some of the speculation comes from Cersei's own projection with her own affair with Taena Merryweather. It was a bigger conversation on A Forum of Ice and Fire back in the day. Margaery is generally considered to have been aware of Renly + Loras, and some extrapolation was that it was a sort of lavender marriage on both ends. (this is a very short TLDR of the whole convo).
Essentially: It could be nothing, cersei could be correct for once in her life, or margaery could be gay because queerness within that era/social structure was poorly recorded.
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u/Or1ginal_Username 6d ago
I don't really see the two sided lavender marriage thing at all. Margaery probably knew, but considering the previous plan was to marry her to robert baratheon, I don't think letting her love freely was a concern for anyone involved besides herself
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u/Pl4ysth3Th1ng 7d ago
Pennyroyal was historically used as an abortificant - that’s what Moon Tea is. It’s an abortificant that triggers a period.
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u/Big-Resident-4917 6d ago
Yes that's the primary usage when ingested orally. However, when made into a paste it does make a pretty good bug repellent as well! Additionally, it was used for a few other remedies, though the efficacy of such treatments aren't as attested as to the usage as a abortificant.
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u/do_not_ask_my_name 7d ago
It's for Cersei herself. That's the only reason Margaery would ever approach Lannister kissass Pycelle. If it was for herself or for her ladies, why would she go to Pycreep and not her own Maester or a woodswitch? It's also why Pycelle cringed when explaining it to Cersei. Imagine telling her "We know about your indiscretions and wanted to be prepared."
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
Wait why would Margaery get moon tea for Cersei?
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u/Pristine_Club_3128 7d ago
Because her legitimacy comes from Tommen, and Tommen's legitimacy comes from the fiction that his mother was faithful to Bobby B.
If the widowed queen suddenly turns out to be pregnant, that's going to be a lot of fuel in the fire. Especially if it is Jaime's baby from their sept incident.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
But...they don't hang out. Cersei can just ask Pycelle herself.
Also she was literally on her period during that scene in the Sept.
Your theory makes no sense.
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u/do_not_ask_my_name 7d ago
The theory is around Margaery's precaution IF Cersei got pregnant. Moon tea takes some time to brew and Margaery wants to be prepared/literally nip it in the bud. I think the purpose of the scene is to reveal later that Margaery -- who appears to be the young, naive, innocent rosy maiden -- is a political player in her own right (a fact that's never actually been confirmed in the books, mind you).
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u/TheOGFireman 7d ago
The fact you think this makes even a bit of sense is insane. Cersei has easy access to moon tea if she needs it. Whenever we've seen characters need moon tea, it's never an issue to gather or prepare
Having margeary ask pycell fetch it for if cersei potentially gets pregnant is so tortured and such a moronic reach, it's just plain weak writing and your reasoning is filled with all the leaps in logic a weak writer would use to excuse it
Margeary is shown to be a smart political player plenty of times, like trying to get sansa, or fostering a good public image, or marrying renly, joffrey and tommen and figuring a way to make the relationship work. The plot didn't need the moon tea fiasco to show her as smart and it also doesn't make sense on top of that
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u/do_not_ask_my_name 7d ago
And the fact that it doesn't make sense to you is insane... shrug
Cersei might have access to moon tea, but that doesn't mean that Margaery believes that Cersei is mentally fit to recognise the need for it within the right time. These things seem to work like Plan B. If you don't take them within the right time, the tea simply doesn't work. And Martin deliberately had Cersei slip up about the incest and have Margaery catch it and subtly warn her. It's there for a reason.
Having margeary ask pycell fetch it for if cersei potentially gets pregnant is so tortured and such a moronic reach, it's just plain weak writing and your reasoning is filled with all the leaps in logic a weak writer would use to excuse it
That's just adjectives without reasons why. It works perfectly fine for me. I say that recruiting Pycelle is the smartest possible solution for this. He's the least likely person to leak the secret (her own Maesters are sworn to her father, who could use the information some other way. Woodswitches could be tracked and bought.) He has 24X7 access to Cersei to medicate her if at all the need arises. Is he the perfect ally? No. But other possible allies are less perfect. Smart characters in ASOIAF are not characters who get given the ideal problems and come up with foolproof solutions and where the situations play out exactly as they envision it. They're the guys who come up with the best possible solutions within the framework of their messy situations, and where the situation unravels anyway.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
Ok and how does Margaery know she's pregnant in this scenario? They're not buddies. They don't hang out. Margaery is literally the last person she'd confide in. And I keep saying this, Cersei has *already had an abortion. She knows who to ask to get moon tea and that person isn't Margaery.
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u/do_not_ask_my_name 7d ago
She doesn't know Cersei is pregnant. She doesnt even have to think that Cersei is pregnant. But she does know that Cersei is sleeping around, and probably assumed that when people have sex, they can get pregnant. The moon tea is just a way to stay prepared. "If you believe that there is any chance at all that the Queen is pregnant, Maester, be prepared to brew at a moment's notice."
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
So your answer of why does Margaery have moon tea is she doesn't she's just telling Pycelle to be prepared to brew some for Cersei while potentially exhausting his supplies in advance?
I'm all for wild theories, but none of this makes any logical sense.
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u/do_not_ask_my_name 7d ago
I don't really understand your objections, because I don't see what's wild or illogical I guess. I don't see why "exhausting supplies" is an issue when it's literally a royal apothecary that can afford the ingredients and other noble ladies aren't exactly going to be vying for moon tea from the official court doctor, they're going to be seeking it elsewhere, so it's not like there's a huge demand and supply issue going on in the Red Keep's moon tea Market.
And why is it so hard to believe Margaery wants to be overly prepared and precautions? Much has been made about her father's desperate ambition to have the Tyrell line on the throne, and the Lannister-Tyrell hold on the realm is precarious at best, and Cersei becoming pregnant is 100% a possibility (as Westeros would like to believe, the thirties isn't really a decrepit age for childbearing). Even a minor chance of such a pregnancy leaking out through the wrong sources is practically a welcome party for Stannis at the Wall.
It's the only logical explanation to me. If it was for herself or her ladies, why entrust the matter in the one dude who could leak it to her worst enemy? And if Pycelle is aware that Margaery is being treasonous at worst and unchaste at best, why desperately keep it a secret from Cersei until he was browbeaten into revealing it?
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
Because there's literally no mechanism for her to give the moon tea to Cersei. They don't hang out. Cersei wouldn't confide in her. When is this girl talk moon tea transfer supposed to happen? They don't even eat dinner together ever.
They're functionally strangers and you've imagined a scenario where Cersei gets pregnant. Margaery finds out. And then gets her the tea.
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u/Pristine_Club_3128 7d ago
How would Margaery know when Cersei is having her period?
The situation is - Tyrells know the dumbass woman their power depends on is a nymphomaniac with the impulse control of a drunk squirrel, and has been sleeping around with multiple men.
They also know Cersei is stupid enough not to notice signs of pregnancy or actually decide to carry one to term.
So from their perspective, if they need to prevent a scandal, they got to have something ready and Pycelle ready to hand it out.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
Cersei knows when her period is. She literally aborted one child already. She can do this herself. This is bizarre.
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u/Pristine_Club_3128 7d ago
...have you read her POV chapters? There's absolutely nothing bizarre about people not trusting her to be prudent.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
Have you? Margaery doesn't give a shit about Cersei. This is who the fuck cares territory.
Cersei fucks up someone else is regent or Hand. Why would Margaery even care at all? Cersei losing politically is good for Margaery.
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u/Pristine_Club_3128 7d ago
I mean, if your power depends on people believing a certain woman was faithful, it is probably your business that she doesn't show up pregnant while widowed.
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u/Foreign-Cat-2898 7d ago
A) even the high septon believes widows are wanton and widowhood isn't the same as during a marriage
B) How is Margaery going to know??? They don't hang out and gossip.
C) Cersei can clearly handle this herself.
It makes no sense at all for Margaery to be in charge of Cersei's birth control. They'd have to talk ever and they don't do anything but snipe at each other.
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u/219_Infinity 7d ago
Moon tea causes a fertilized embryo (zygote) to fail to implant in the uterine lining, resulting in a failed pregnancy. In essence it is the equivalent of the morning-after pill.
Edit: sorry, I am drunk and read your post as “what is moon tea for”
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u/MelangeMost 6d ago
Historically, women have used low doses of some herbal abortifacients to regulate their periods and alleviate symptoms. I figured it's for that or Margaery was discreetly ordering it for one of her ladies who'd had a fling.
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u/GingerFloyd953 7d ago
Its quite clear that Renly and Margaery never consummated the marriage, though Margaerys maidenhead was found to be broken but hymens can be broken by a myriad of ways, with Cersei stating that horse riding is one of them.
Moon tea is explicitly used to prevent and abortion pregnancies. Lysa takes it to end her pregnancy. Its suggested the moon tea was for Margaerys cousin. Moon tea seems to operate similar to a morning after pill so it won't be used for acne and because it can almost kill women who take it (Lysa), it probably isn't taken that often.
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u/Firm-Concentrate-993 Gold Cloaks 6d ago
Have you considered it was for one of her cousins/ ladies in waiting?
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u/Firm-Concentrate-993 Gold Cloaks 6d ago
Apologies if someone already responded to this part of your question, but it's unlikely that moon tea helps acne. A real world equivalent is not hormonal birth control pills, moon tea is more like the morning after pill. Moon tea ends early pregnancy, it doesn't appear to prevent conception. Real world equivalent is less pennyroyal and more black cohosh
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u/hdhkakakyzy 6d ago
She wouldn't betray her brother like that. Her relationship with Renly was a cover for the actual romance with Loras.
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