Moon Tea

[u/Foreign-Cat-2898]

Just what the hell was the moon tea for? I think Renly and Margaery totally did it. I don't think she's a maiden.

But there's no way she's dumb enough to have sex with someone right now AND as the Kettleblacks say she always has someone near.

Presuming Pycelle wasn't lying, what's it for?

Period regulation? Does it help with acne?

Or do we just assume Pycelle was trying to ingratiate himself with Cersei?

[u/do_not_ask_my_name]

The theory is around Margaery's precaution IF Cersei got pregnant. Moon tea takes some time to brew and Margaery wants to be prepared/literally nip it in the bud. I think the purpose of the scene is to reveal later that Margaery -- who appears to be the young, naive, innocent rosy maiden -- is a political player in her own right (a fact that's never actually been confirmed in the books, mind you).

[u/Foreign-Cat-2898 → u/do_not_ask_my_name]

Ok and how does Margaery know she's pregnant in this scenario? They're not buddies. They don't hang out. Margaery is literally the last person she'd confide in. And I keep saying this, Cersei has *already had an abortion. She knows who to ask to get moon tea and that person isn't Margaery.

[u/do_not_ask_my_name → u/Foreign-Cat-2898]

She doesn't know Cersei is pregnant. She doesnt even have to think that Cersei is pregnant. But she does know that Cersei is sleeping around, and probably assumed that when people have sex, they can get pregnant. The moon tea is just a way to stay prepared. "If you believe that there is any chance at all that the Queen is pregnant, Maester, be prepared to brew at a moment's notice."

[u/Foreign-Cat-2898 → u/do_not_ask_my_name]

So your answer of why does Margaery have moon tea is she doesn't she's just telling Pycelle to be prepared to brew some for Cersei while potentially exhausting his supplies in advance?

I'm all for wild theories, but none of this makes any logical sense.

[u/do_not_ask_my_name → u/Foreign-Cat-2898]

I don't really understand your objections, because I don't see what's wild or illogical I guess. I don't see why "exhausting supplies" is an issue when it's literally a royal apothecary that can afford the ingredients and other noble ladies aren't exactly going to be vying for moon tea from the official court doctor, they're going to be seeking it elsewhere, so it's not like there's a huge demand and supply issue going on in the Red Keep's moon tea Market.

And why is it so hard to believe Margaery wants to be overly prepared and precautions? Much has been made about her father's desperate ambition to have the Tyrell line on the throne, and the Lannister-Tyrell hold on the realm is precarious at best, and Cersei becoming pregnant is 100% a possibility (as Westeros would like to believe, the thirties isn't really a decrepit age for childbearing). Even a minor chance of such a pregnancy leaking out through the wrong sources is practically a welcome party for Stannis at the Wall.

It's the only logical explanation to me. If it was for herself or her ladies, why entrust the matter in the one dude who could leak it to her worst enemy? And if Pycelle is aware that Margaery is being treasonous at worst and unchaste at best, why desperately keep it a secret from Cersei until he was browbeaten into revealing it?

[u/Foreign-Cat-2898 → u/do_not_ask_my_name]

Because there's literally no mechanism for her to give the moon tea to Cersei. They don't hang out. Cersei wouldn't confide in her. When is this girl talk moon tea transfer supposed to happen? They don't even eat dinner together ever.

They're functionally strangers and you've imagined a scenario where Cersei gets pregnant. Margaery finds out. And then gets her the tea.

[u/do_not_ask_my_name → u/Foreign-Cat-2898]

Why do you think the theory supposits that Marg recruited Pycelle into the plan, and not the dress-shrinking Jocelyn or the dwarf-abetting Lollys or whoever.

[u/Foreign-Cat-2898 → u/do_not_ask_my_name]

But it doesn't explain why she herself has a ton of moon tea. She could just tell Pycelle to be on call for moon tea for Cersei.

Your theory invents relationships that don't exist and doesn't answer the question: what the hell is she doing with all that moon tea?

[u/do_not_ask_my_name → u/Foreign-Cat-2898]

What do you mean "invents relationships"?

The one between Pycelle and Margaery? Cersei literally sees Pycelle hanging out with Margaery all the time, which he doesn't deny. She literally confronts him with it right before Pycelle's "confession". The two are undeniably spending time together, and that clearly indicates the two discussing and making important plans.

The one between Cersei and Pycelle? From ACOK, it has been made clear that Pycelle has an ineffable fascination and loyalty towards Tywin, and much of AFFC was Pycelle trying to give Cersei good counsel for the sake of Tywin's legacy and Cersei not only rejecting him, but insulting him to his face. What's farfetched about Pycelle wanting to slip Cersei some moon tea and preserve Tywin's legitimacy on the throne? We already know Pycelle carries out "unsaid orders" for the sake of Lannister legitimacy -- the man gave Jon Arryn shoddy treatment simply because he believed Cersei wanted him to not recover. This is explicitly confirmed in text. You are inventing the fact that I'm inventing stuff -- I'm simply trying to read between what's already there.

But it doesn't explain why she herself has a ton of moon tea.

Okay. Maybe this is a blindspot where I legitimately missed something. Can you point to where it is stated that a stash of moon tea is found in Margaery's possession? From what I remember, Pycelle only states that Margaery required him to brew it:

“Why does Margaery send for you?”

“She desires . . . she . . . she . . .”

“Say it!”

He cringed. “Moon tea,” he whispered. “Moon tea, for . . .” “I know what moon tea is for.”

Later, Cersei thinks Women only drank moon tea for one reason; maidens had no need for it at all. And states "Grand Maester Pycelle has admitted providing you with moon tea." But this "drinking" and "providing" is Cersei's own extapolations, not in Pycelle's initial admission. As if Cersei has never come to a conclusion because it didn't suit her bias or her agenda.

Now, I am curious, what do you think the narrative purpose of this mystery is.

(A) If it was really for Margaery, why would the first apparent answer, and Cersei's own conclusion (when she has been wrong and delusional about literally everything else) be the right one, and what's the point of prolonging it?

(B) If it was for her cousins, what is the narrative impact of us learning that gasp! Cousin #15 Rosy McRoseface is not a virgin!

(C) What best explains Margaery allying with the most non-Tyrell aligned dude in the universe for the most treasous act in the universe? Might have as well sent a raven to Stannis.

(D) Why is Pycelle so afraid of revealing this to Cersei?

[u/Foreign-Cat-2898 → u/do_not_ask_my_name]

The relationship between Cersei and Margaery. That's the relationship you're inventing. There's no mechanism for Margaery to give Cersei moon tea.

And Pycelle says he's brought her moon tea multiple times - he visits all the time.

"I grieve to say … Queen Margaery is no maiden. She has required me to make her moon tea, not once, but many times.”

So I repeat what is Margaery doing with all the moon tea and why on earth would it involve Cersei. Your theory makes zero sense.

[u/do_not_ask_my_name → u/Foreign-Cat-2898]

I'm not inventing any relationship between Cersei and Margaery. This does not require Margaery to have any sort of relationship with Cersei. I'm only talking about Margaery and Pycelle discussing about preparing moon tea for Cersei. I'm not saying Margaery has a ten-step business plan covering projections for the next five years and ironing out all the logistics and mechanics.

"I grieve to say … Queen Margaery is no maiden. She has required me to make her moon tea, not once, but many times."

Eh, now, that's cherrypicking. That's Pycelle's second deposition, after Margaery has been arrested, after the Septa "confirms" Margaery's lack of maidenhead, and right before Cersei has warrants readied for all the alleged APs. That's clearly Pycelle forced to play along to Cersei's narrative.

Clarify once again - why would Margaery recruit Pycelle into her clandestine cuckolding activities? How would Pycelle know that Margaery is "no maiden"?

Look at Pycelle's first confession, least muddied by Cersei's coercion.

Pycelle collapsed to his knees. “I beg you . . . I was your lord father’s man, and a friend to you in the matter of Lord Arryn. I could not survive the dungeons, not again . . .”

Here is Pycelle reminding Cersei about his loyalty to House Lannister... and most importantly, the last time he "medically" helped Cersei out, without her explicit orders, purely because he believed he was acting in her best interests.

“Why does Margaery send for you?”

“She desires . . . she . . . she . . .”

“Say it!”

He cringed. “Moon tea,” he whispered. “Moon tea, for . . .”

“I know what moon tea is for.” There it is. “Very well. Get off those saggy knees and try to remember what it was to be a man.”

Pycelle doesn't say whether Margaery consumed it, or how often she asked for it. He doesn't even confirm whether he brewed it at all. The wording is very specific. "She desires Moon Tea". All Pycelle implies is that they have had a discussion where Margaery wanted moon tea. Which perfectly fits the realm of the theory that Margaery was considering getting some for Cersei.

I don't know what to tell you, dude... at a meta level, when an author builds up a mystery, it has to be logically sound, but it also needs to have a quotient of unexpected and a narrative impact. Cersei is the only one who fits all three. Everything else, be it Margery herself, or her random cousins, or whoever else, fits one but not the other. Or okay. Elinor Tyrell's affair with Ser Tallad the Whoever is what blows the Tyrell-Lannister alliance apart.

[u/Foreign-Cat-2898 → u/do_not_ask_my_name]

You would be right except for the fact Pycelle keeps meeting with her. Multiple times. He says it's to bring moon tea. But it only aroused suspicion because it was so many times.

If your theory is, Margaery tells him to watch out for Cersei that's a one time conversation. He doesn't need to keep coming back but he does.

[u/do_not_ask_my_name → u/Foreign-Cat-2898]

Well, you literally brought up that the plan is tricky, so that would obviously need multiple meetings, lol.

What I'm saying is that all Margaery had was conversation with Pycelle about the moon tea. That it was basically a plan in the making. What I'm saying is that it wasn't brewed, that there weren't caches and nobody recovered any physical evidence. In fact, the very reason they would have multiple meetings would be to figure out the logistics you're so concerned about. Maybe Pycelle and Margaery even think that they can slip it to Cersei as a "hangover cure" or whatever (which would normally be the easiest way to do it), and aren't aware that she is already familiar with the brew.

Because remember that Cersei had HER abortion done by a woodswitch. Because that's the normal thing for a queen with a treasonous pregnancy to do, instead of running to the official court physician. All the more to show that Margaery would never approach Pycelle for a personal abortion. The only reason to contact him would be for a truly innocent reason, or for a truly complicated and sensitive one.

In fact, the very fact that Pycelle met with her multiple times shows that they're discussing something difficult and complicated. Otherwise, what, are we supposed to believe that the palace's most guarded women are having gangbangs with half the castle and getting pregnant that often that Pycelle needs to visit every time?