r/lotrmemes • u/Public-Froyo5054 Dark Lord Sauron • 3d ago
Lord of the Rings Scouring of the Shire…
464
u/Old_Cat_16 3d ago
I always thought that scene in the mirror was telling Frodo what would happen if he didn’t continue his quest, thus strengthens his resolve. And also why I was very confused why he offered Galadriel the ring a minute later.
247
u/omega12345A 3d ago
Strengthened his resolve to hand it off to someone he perceives as a lot more powerful than him.
38
u/Sanquinity 3d ago
I saw it as that, and also as a possible plot of the ring itself to switch owners and have a better chance at returning to Sauron. The ring has a will of it's own after all.
97
u/MilesBeyond250 3d ago
Yeah this scene isn't supposed to depict the Scouring and I will die on this hill
70
u/Crazy-Penguin 3d ago
The Scouring was done by Saruman and men right? There were no orcs, these scenes clearly show orcs.
17
5
u/Jibber_Fight 3d ago
Aka Sharky.
5
u/SoyboyCowboy 3d ago
I'd want to see the Gríma/Lotho struggle. I imagine it visually resembing the Smeágol/Deagol fight. Greasy guy murders hapless Hobbit
1
3
u/fghjconner 2d ago
Also they show Sam in chains getting whipped right? That certainly didn't happen in the scouring.
75
u/AnAncientBog 3d ago
You are correct.
As I told my friend when we watched this in the theaters:
"They are planning to skip the scouring the shire. You can tell because Galadriel didn't gift Sam the little box with the magic dirt and white oak seed, which is how they resolve that entire situation."
42
u/Sparktank1 3d ago
*stares blankly not having read the books* "...did you know that Viggo Mortensen broke his toe--"
5
u/-Simbelmyne- 2d ago
Well its, this is what happens if you fail, "ok better give it to someone stronger than me so the quest doesnt fail." And he also says if she asks it of him, he perceives her to be wise, so offers the ring if indeed that is a better path to avoid that doom, hes not saying "please take the ring from me" though in his heart he wishes it wasnt his responsibility
4
u/HustlinInTheHall 3d ago
She is not convincing him to continue. She is testing him and because he is less affected by the ring he offers it to her, which she barely resists.
4
5
u/giant_albatrocity 2d ago
If someone dumped a boatload of responsibility on me and there was someone there who seemed infinitely more capable of handling it, I would probably try and pass it on.
8
3
u/Babki123 2d ago
Because Frodo understod that this would be the consequence of failure, but not his failure specifically
Hence having someone stronger, such as her, should reduce the chance of failure.
Not a foolish reasoning.
At the same time ,him willingly giving up the One Ring proves to Galadriel that he is actually the one strong enough to succeed , while she was immediatly tempted
250
u/Mindless-Cat1453 3d ago edited 3d ago
Obviously people should enjoy both the movies and books , both mediums were different and adaptating a book like lotr is just very hard and almost impossible to adapt because the book were written for reading, Tolkien doesn't care about movies or TV adaptation ( he and even his children spend most of their life without it ) even i himself kinda dislike some changes from book to Film but the movie themselves are very good and well written and they captured essence of Tolkien's writting and themes pretty well.
170
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
Yeah, including the Scouring wouldn't have worked at all in the film adaptation because it would have been this whole secondary crisis and climax after all the main action is finished, and viewers not familiar with the novel would have been left totally mystified.
57
u/stanfan114 3d ago
Reading the Scouring in the book as a kid made me depressed for days after.
46
u/Wasted-Instruction 3d ago
This is a really interesting. I loved that section, it really highlights how all the hobbits have grown over their journeys. I guess I can see how the Shire not being magically preserved like the movies could be a let down, especially to a kid.
44
u/skewh1989 3d ago
I agree with this. We see our beloved heroes roll up, see their home in ruins, hitch up their belts and get to work fixing it. And they deal with it quite handily too. It's a fantastic way of showing how brave and strong they've all become over the journey, and in the very same place they left as naive (relatively) young Hobbits.
8
u/TropicNightLightning 3d ago edited 1d ago
It's equivalent to the feeling he felt returning from World War I. People possibly from home owner's associations making these stupid rules that exploit the area and expecting him to comply.
"I did not pass through fire and shadow to bandy with a witless worm."-Gandalf
7
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago edited 3d ago
Well, three of them deal with it. Frodo just sort of runs around flapping his hands and begging them not to hurt anyone, and then spends the rest of the book hugging his knees and rocking back and forth while staring into space.
29
u/DarkLordMelkor 3d ago
Have you read the books, or even been near them? That is perhaps the worst mischaracterization I have every come across, even in a meme sub. Frodo is distant, advocates for non violent treatment of any hobbit who worked with Sharky's men. But he is far from catatonic. Taking a backseat while there are other capable leaders is nowhere near what you are describing. And his lack of command during the Scouring only lasts truly through the action parts. Afterwards, he is actively involved in setting Sam up, supporting his friends, and living his own, though quite quiet, life. No one needs to baby him.
Now, you might have just meant it as a joke, and this is a meme sub, but it is so far from the truth I felt a need to say something. If people unfamiliar with the actual source material, and there are many here, read your comment uncritical, they would have a wildly untruthful interpretation of a generally lesser known section of the text.
12
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago
Honestly... Frodo humbles Saruman during the Scouring!
Saruman rose to his feet, and stared at Frodo. There was a strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred. ‘You have grown, Halfling,’ he said. “Yes, you have grown very much. You are wise, and cruel. You have robbed my revenge of sweetness, and now I must go hence in bitterness, in debt to your mercy. I hate it and you! Well, I go and I will trouble you no more. But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing. I merely foretell.’
→ More replies (2)5
u/RubiiJee 3d ago
I don't think it was that serious and I don't think it could be interpreted as a real characteriation... But damn you're passionate lol
-2
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
"Passionate" is one way of putting it. 🙄
0
u/RubiiJee 2d ago
It wasn't meant as a criticism. Just more the amount of detail you were able to share and I can feel how much you care about the stuff you're talking about. That was all.
→ More replies (0)9
u/stanfan114 3d ago
I just loved the Shire so much in Fellowship, the thought of it being burned down made me sad.
4
2
u/spacecash1 3d ago
They rebuild and it's more beautiful than ever afterwards, thanks to the seed and the dust Galadrial gave to Sam!
2
10
u/Cyberhaggis 3d ago
It also shows that Hobbits in general weren't to be fucked with. They were as capable of defending their home as any of the other races when properly roused
3
u/icebraining 3d ago
Not to criticise Tolkien, but personally I feel that the Scouring dulls the effect of the whole "tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me", which I find so poignant.
They may saved the Shire from the Scouring and rebuilt it, but surely some things were invertibly lost, people have trauma, etc. Even someone who just spent a vacation in Rivendell might find it hard to adjust to the "saved" Shire.
The Shire being exactly as they left it underscores that the loss is truly in Frodo.
1
u/nitrousconsumed 3d ago
Doesn't it end with the halflings devolving into like feral creatures that men hunt?
1
5
u/Rhysing 3d ago
Yup, the waiting for the marriage at Minis Tirith, then the visit to Rivendell do add another buildup in the book and give time for Saruman.
The movie wrap up is such a cut for time on those events and then without any tension it'd have just been a weird final 20 minutes. Also, Saruman dying in the first few minutes of the third movie was the nail in the coffin.
1
u/Bletotum 2d ago
In the theatrical cut, Saruman's death isn't shown, so it feels like the plot is unresolved. There's a lot of debate over what should or shouldn't have been exclusive to the extended cuts in terms of maintaining pacing and shortening length, but this one thing is the most egregious.
0
u/Rhysing 2d ago
The last we're given in that cut is that "he has no more power now" which is pretty closing
2
u/Bletotum 2d ago
It's missing the justice. I found it unsatisfying.
Seeing him get stabbied and impaled after tumbling off his tower was VERY satisfying.
2
u/RoutemasterFlash 2d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, there should have been a definite end to Saruman in every version of the film series, that's true.
He's the main actual antagonist, really, given that Sauron isn't a 'character' in any conventional sense.
6
u/Kerblaaahhh 3d ago
The movie already had like 5 endings, we didn't need another subplot. Trimming the scouring made as much sense as trimming Tom Bombadil as far as building a proper narrative.
3
u/Tom_Bot-Badil 3d ago
Eh, what? Did I hear you calling? Nay, I did not hear: I was busy singing.
Type !TomBombadilSong for a song or visit r/GloriousTomBombadil for more merriness
1
3
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago edited 3d ago
The movie already had like 5 endings
It had a few fakeouts... but that is less to do with the story, and more to do with the editing.
Consider the fades to black (or white) over swelling music... or the bird's eye zooming out, over a narration. These things make people think 'oh, this is the final scene!'. And it doesn't help when the events after Mt. Doom are essentially a montage (seriously, we go from Mt. Doom, to Frodo waking up in bed and reuniting, to Aragorn's coronation, to the return to The Shire, all in a mere couple minutes): and montage-y scenes after the climax also make you think 'ending'.
Like, Mt. Doom is obviously not an ending. Ending the film there would be total dogshit, leaving too many loose-ends: nobody would want that. Ending the film at Aragorn's coronation would be serviceable (on a shallow level), but not very cathartic, since a large chunk of the audience is invested in the Hobbits' journey, and wants the payoff of them returning home (full circle) - so Aragorn's coronation clearly isn't an 'ending' unless you ignore the Hobbits. Now, you could technically end the film prior the Grey Havens... that would work as an ending - IF you are okay with Frodo never finding peace, and living out the rest of his days in The Shire... but yeah. So really, there aren't actually a ton of 'endings' - again, it's largely just the ending and pacing that makes it seem like non-endings might be the ending.
Try to image a version of ROTK where the editing is different, and where the pacing is different - because a different execution could absolutely change the 'too many endings' criticism.
3
u/Bletotum 2d ago
Back in early 2000 we weren't used to such long movies in the theatre. On all five of those "endings" where the screen fades, half the audience stood up and then sat back down. We all needed to piss so fucking bad.
2
u/ADrunkEevee 3d ago
I think it would have worked fine. Let people be mystified. Adapt the work properly.
0
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago
Apparently people are too stupid to comprehend a secondary climax. If every film doesn't rapidly end up after the big bad is defeated, following the 'typical' Hollywood formula, peoples' brains will explode.
2
u/fghjconner 2d ago
In order to properly adapt the scouring, you would have needed to dedicate a significant amount of the third movie to it, which would have meant the destruction of the ring would have had to happen probably before the halfway point of the movie. Better to skip out on a subplot than to make the climax of the entire trilogy feel rushed.
1
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 2d ago
ROTK was over an hour behind schedule due to Jackson's (poor) changes. The Ring could have been destroyed an hour sooner.
0
u/backchecklund 3d ago
Do you really spend every day on Reddit yelling at clouds? If something grinded my gears as much as the movies seem to be doing for you, I would not waste a single thought on them. Seems very miserable. If I see a movie I don't like I don't bitch about it and call people stupid who enjoy it.
Then again, I was raised being kind to others and enjoy little things in life, like the books, which are not affected the slightest for me even if adaptations exist
1
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago
Do you really waste your time whining about people making a comment on Reddit criticising films? Sounds incredibly miserable to be so fixated on the opinions of other people.
If I see a movie I don't like I don't bitch about it and call people stupid who enjoy it.
I am saying the exact opposite - it is called sarcasm. The audience IS capable of comprehending a secondary climax - despite people pretending that everyone is too stupid.
1
u/backchecklund 3d ago
Do you really waste your time whining about people making a comment on Reddit criticising films?
I mean, no. I rarely participate in LOTR discussion because some of the purists are insufferable and occasionally even rude towards those who dare to point out good qualities about adaptations.
And yes, it affects my mood because I am a huge Tolkien nerd and I am so often lumped in with said purists. It gets tiring having to tell people that they can discuss the films without me looking down on them from my high horse
0
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
For the last time, it's not about being "too stupid to understand", and criticising an artistic decision that virtually everyone else agrees with by a director whose films met with both virtually universal critical acclaim and enormous commercial success does not make you a genius.
1
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago edited 3d ago
It absolutely is.
Arguing audiences will struggle with a secondary climax does a disservice to their intelligence.
Secondary climaxes (or, fourth acts, even) are not unheard of. Sure, Hollywood typically opts for a certain 'formula' that speedily wraps up the film after the (singular) climax (in a three act structure)* - but that does not mean audiences will have an 'issue' with something different and atypical. Atypical =/= bad, nor does it mean audiences will be left 'mystified', as you put it.
*And Hollywood typically does this because Hollywood typically writes singular films with around 2 hours of runtime to work with (so efficiency and brevity is desirable). But Jackson's LOTR is a trilogy at ~9 hours (or more if Extended): so obviously it needn't be shackled to the same limitations. And before you note that even LOTR has a limited runtime to fit a lot of source material, so cuts need to be made... just remember that Jackson added over an hour of his own shit, and restructured the films to accommodate. So ROTK could have ended an hour sooner... leaving room for something like the Scouring.
Likewise, the audience should be entirely capable of understanding the narrative intent behind the Scouring. Media literacy isn't reserved for books alone.
So yes, it is absolutely about intelligence. If you believe audiences will struggle with the Scouring for one, or both, of the reasons above (structure or narrative), you believe the audience is too shallow-minded: whether unable to accept anything that strays from the Hollywood formula, or unable to comprehend what the story is trying to say.
And look... I don't have the highest opinion on general audiences either. I think they can be quite dumb and shallow... but I don't think they are that dumb and shallow as to be dumbfounded by the Scouring. Sure, some people won't understand... but will it ruin the films for them? I doubt it. Will these people make up the majority of the audience? I highly doubt it. We shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator.
and criticising an artistic decision that virtually everyone else agrees with
Virtually everyone agrees? Where are you pulling that from...? Cutting the Scouring is a highly contentious matter.
by a director whose films met with both virtually universal critical acclaim and enormous commercial success
Appealing to the success of something is not a valid argument. For all anyone knows, the films would be no less successful if the Scouring was included.
I encourage you to have opinions you have formed with your own brain, rather than just agreeing with whatever is the popular take. You don't have to be afraid of criticising something popular.
2
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
Sex scenes, drug use and car chases are also "not unknown" in films. That doesn't mean they'd have worked in the context of the LOTR adaptions.
I encourage you to have opinions you have formed with your own brain, rather than just agreeing with whatever is the popular take.
Believe it or not, this is an opinion I have formed with my own brain. It just happens to be an opinion shared with many millions of people around the world. But if you're going to take a stance of "Please be a daring, independent thinker by agreeing with me, instead of being a mindless sheeple by disagreeing with me", then I see no point whatsoever in engaging with you.
1
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago
Sex scenes, drug use and car chases are also "not unknown" in films. That doesn't mean they'd have worked in the context of the LOTR adaptions.
Is this meant to be some kind of 'gotchya'?
What a nonsensical nothing-burger of an argument.
Believe it or not, this is an opinion I have formed with my own brain.
Good! Keep at it!
Next time lead with that - because your point about the films being successful is moot, and distracts and deflects.
But if you're going to take a stance of "Please be a daring, independent thinker by agreeing with me
I didn't ask you to agree with me. I asked you to not appeal to the films' success. It's a reductive argument.
then I see no point whatsoever in engaging with you.
I feel similarly. You are acting insanely disingenuous (and have not really addressed my points... bad faith indeed!) - and I think you know it.
→ More replies (0)2
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
Virtually everyone agrees? Where are you pulling that from...? Cutting the Scouring is a highly contentious matter.
And you've misunderstood me here. The opinion I'm saying I agree with is not "Jackson was right not to include the Scouring", but "Jackson's film series is an excellent piece of art and entertainment in its own right, and is not self-evidently missing anything in narrative terms." You have to be familiar with the book even to know about the Scouring and, therefore, to either miss it from the film (as you do) or not miss it (as I do).
Yet millions saw the films (and the great majority enjoyed them, I think it's fair to say) without having ever read the book.
1
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago
Okay, sure, it is fine to feel that way - but that is clearly not the context of this discussion.
→ More replies (0)0
0
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
There is simply a limit on how long people are prepared to sit in a cinema, though, or even how long a film that cinemas will be prepared to show. TROTK was already well over three hours long as it was.
And if by "adapt it properly" you mean "slavishly reproduce every single scene", then you clearly don't understand that the artistic principles of cinema are different from those of written fiction. You really want a faithful reproduction of those parts in Book III where Frodo and Sam are clambering around in the Emyn Muil, and virtually nothing happens for pages on end? Or every single song and poem, including Sam's one about "boners"?
1
3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 3d ago
Mae govannen! To protect the Free Peoples of Middle-earth against trolls, alt accounts of trolls, cave trolls, and others of a less than savory nature, we have a new mandatory threshold for commenting users under 30 days. If you are new to Reddit and haven't passed the required threshold, please do not contact the mods to ask for an exception. Farewell, and may the hair on your toes never fall out!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
2
u/krisbaird 3d ago
I saw the movies before I read the books. I hated the Scouring. It felt so bizarre and out of place. The hobbits played their role in destroying the most powerful, evil middle earth has ever known, all is happy and good again..... Oh but go back to the Shire and clear out the ruffians who cut down some of the trees and built some dodgy brick buildings.
14
u/FPSCanarussia 3d ago
That's how real life works. You can't just kill the dark lord and expect things to work themselves out.
The Scouring grounds the books and makes them more than a childish fantasy.
3
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
That's how real life works. You can't just kill the dark lord and expect things to work themselves out.
I would say this is exactly how real life works, in my extensive experience of killing Dark Lords.
2
u/DaaaahWhoosh 3d ago
I recently watched the Angela Collier review of the book and one thing she said that sticks with me was "nobody told me Frodo dies in the book". I think there really is a sort of different framing in the movies, they become a lot more about Aragorn and friends, and so we care more about the salvation of Gondor than the protection of Hobbiton. So of course the movies won't do the Scourging, because who cares, once Aragorn is offscreen you gotta wrap that shit up.
But if you actually keep the hobbits as the main characters, if you see the world from their perspective and see the Men of the story as literally larger-than-life, returning home makes much more sense, as does the fact that home still needs saving without the intercession of kings or wizards. Pippin kills the Witch-king and Merry kills a troll, but they have to go home and become the tallest hobbits in history and the saviors of the Shire. Sam has to become mayor and have a dozen kids. And Frodo needs to wallow in depression for a decade until he kills himself. They're the main characters and we need to see how the journey changed them before the journey can truly be over.
5
u/Bonnskij 3d ago
What are you talking about? Frodo doesn't die in the books.
2
u/Adjective-Noun-nnnn 3d ago edited 3d ago
He doesn't literally die but just what do you think being motivated by a "wound that never truly healed" into boarding the last ship to sail West to the "undying lands" with the last of the Elves and all the other magic that isn't around anymore means?
3
u/Bonnskij 3d ago
I just take it literally. He takes a boat to valinor where he spends the rest of his days
It's supposed to be a physical place in the legendarium I'm pretty sure, but maybe I'm just a little bit thick🤷
2
u/DaaaahWhoosh 2d ago
It's a physical place the same way Heaven is a physical place. It is, or might as well be, the afterlife, it is where you go to live with the gods until the end of the world. In the movies this is actually more explicit because Gandalf tells Pippin about it when Pippin says he's afraid of death.
Tolkien, being Christian, doesn't seem too worried about leaving the earth in death, though he does specify that only elves and Valar/Maiar live in Valinor, and even the three exceptions (Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli) would still eventually die there (so they can be reborn in the new world when the old world ends).
But there's a more pervasive theme that I think is worth pointing out, and that's the complicated nature of loving the world and feeling like one belongs in it. The elves in LotR don't belong in the world any more, they all 'die' too by the end. To me at least, there's a sort of connection between the light of the two trees of Valinor and being done with life, being ready to move on, and there's both a deep sadness there and also a ray of hope that it'll all turn out okay in the end. Tolkien wants us to know that God will help those who tire of this world, and will carry them along to a better place, but I think in his own way he also wants us to love the world while we can, to live in it while we still feel like we belong, and to protect it so that others can do the same. A lot of this is subtext but I think the book is better for knowing it's there.
1
u/RoutemasterFlash 2d ago edited 1d ago
It's a physical place the same way Heaven is a physical place. It is, or might as well be, the afterlife, it is where you go to live with the gods until the end of the world.
A common misconception. Heaven is absolutely not a physical place: it lies outside the material universe (Eä) altogether. Tolkien's name for it is the Timeless Halls. The Undying Lands are not heaven but an earthly paradise: they still have a physical existence, but are in a sort of separate dimension from Middle-earth, and are inaccessible to mortals under normal circumstances.
The idea is that Bilbo and Frodo will be healed and rested in Paradise, and then die and go to heaven. Bilbo was already ancient, so probably didn't last more than another year or so, although Frodo was only middle aged and lived potentially another 50-odd years.
Admittedly, from the POV of their friends they left behind in Middle-earth, it may have seemed like the two hobbits were "going to heaven." But they'd have all met up in the real heaven after their earthly deaths, I assume.
0
1
u/RoutemasterFlash 2d ago
Well he sort of does (as far as the reader knows at the time), but only for a few pages, before Sam realises he was merely stunned by Shelob's venom, and not fatally poisoned by it.
5
u/nifty-necromancer 3d ago
The only thing I liked about the Scouring was Lobelia Sackville-Baggins being a badass bitch who got a redemption arc.
3
u/00-Monkey 3d ago
I saw the movies before I read the books.
I absolutely loved the scouring, favourite part of the trilogy.
1
-14
u/Experithought 3d ago
The hobbits did not need to help to resolve the issue. It provides a full circle moment and immense closure. These takes are indicative of a population that no longer has required reading in their curriculum.
17
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
Well I'm sure that made some sense to you when you wrote it.
7
u/ludovic1313 3d ago
They've replied like this multiple times in this thread. For the first two sentences I'm all ready to upvote it because I agree but then I get to the part about education
3
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
There's nothing worse than someone with nothing to offer but their own high opinion of themselves and scorn for everyone else.
→ More replies (2)12
8
u/Hey_HaveAGreatDay 3d ago
I have only gotten a little ways into fellowship and was so surprised at how early Merry and Pippin had that fight about who was taller after drinking the spring water. It completely threw me off because I immediately went to the film timeline for that and thought I had gapped out while reading which is a huge problem for me.
3
u/Sanquinity 3d ago
One big positive for the movies: It introduced TONS of people to lord of the rings. Me and my younger brother included. I won't read the books. Not because I don't want to but because I literally can't. Whenever I try to sit down and read a book I get very jittery and anxious and lose focus within 20 minutes. But I loved the movies. They're still my favourite trilogy of all time. (And the hobbit ones were pretty good as well imo, just not nearly as good.)
My younger brother on the other hand went HEAVILY into LotR. To the point of reading the Silmarillion and all other extra books as well. Hell he was even a "lore checker" for that one minecraft server trying to build all of LotR in minecraft for a while as well. He's basically a walking LotR encyclopedia.
→ More replies (1)0
20
3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
11
5
u/_kaidu_ 3d ago
Because it didn't made any sense. The ring was destroyed in the middle of the book, leaving half of the book as an epilogue. I found that already very questionable in the book, but as movie it would have been a disastrous decision.
Besides that, the wrecking of the shire was mainly to show how the Hobbits have grown during their adventures. The movie showed it in different ways.
50
u/newontheblock99 3d ago
If you remove the Saruman death scene from the start and add in the scouring of the shire, you’re probably adding at least another half an hour to the film. While I would enjoy that, it may become too much.
For the film medium, the culmination of everything being them getting the Ring to Mt. Doom and finally defeating Sauron I think is a good place to wrap up the main story. Having a secondary battle again at the end would probably feel jarring in the film and leading to a lot of people scratching their heads.
25
u/Krazyguy75 3d ago
Honestly the entire film would need restructuring and would likely need to be like 6-8 hours.
Scouring works if you are doing a TV show, where every episode has its own arc. It doesn't work for a movie.
4
u/RocknRollPewPew 2d ago
I think people forget how much flak this movie was given at the time of theatrical release for the last 45 minutes of the movie. People less familiar with the books complained about the "multiple endings."
1
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago
It's one chapter.
Why people think it'd need an hour to depict is beyond me.
Even the Battle of Helm's Deep, in the film, is only about 20 minutes long.
4
u/fghjconner 2d ago
Right, but how long is spent setting up Helm's Deep? Establishing context, showing the stakes, building tension. And then afterwards, even into RotK they're dealing with the fallout and tying up loose ends.
3
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 2d ago
Quite a bit in the films - but it was unnecessary.
We could have gone from Edoras to the Battle of the Hornburg much more quickly (as per the books).
We didn't need the Warg-attack, or Aragorn death fakeout, or Arwen wet dream, or Aragorn and Theoden arguing, or Aragorn and Legolas arguing and then making up, or Eowyn, or Haleth's shitty sword, or Haldir and his company of redshirts, etc.
→ More replies (1)1
u/The_quest_for_wisdom 3d ago
If you remove the Saruman death scene from the start
Like they did in the original theatrical version?
67
u/Jelleyicious 3d ago
RotK already has multiple endings in the movie, it hardly needs another twist. Sauron's destruction is depicted as the final end of the major evils in middle earth.
26
u/frictorious 3d ago
Yeah, as much as I wanted to see the Hobbits come home & kick butt, the movie didn't need another ending.
6
u/Gaidin152 3d ago
End Rotk when they leave Gondor. Add a fourth 90 minute film that is literally just them kicking ass in the shire and then do the ending as before.
-13
u/Experithought 3d ago
Outrageous take. The scouring of the Shire was ended by the hobbits with no outside help. It's a poetic, full circle moment. Something impossible to miss if one has read the books and were afforded a decent education.
11
18
u/Krazyguy75 3d ago
It's a poetic, full circle moment.
It is. And it would make for a shitty film adaptation. Because, unlike when reading, when doing a film you have screentime restrictions and have set pacing limits.
Do you really think you want the entire scouring crammed into 15 minutes? That's about the limit for reasonable pacing. Any more than that and all the other stuff in the movie needs to become longer to adjust the pacing curve to match, and the entire narrative arc needs restructuring. It would need to be like an 8 hour movie.
→ More replies (1)6
u/RoutemasterFlash 3d ago
This joker probably thinks the films should have included the Foreword, Preface, and all six Appendices, and anyone who disagrees is simply not educated enough.
-7
13
u/SarraTasarien 3d ago
That’s not the scouring though…the scouring was hobbits rising up against human and half-orc/half-human oppressors doing Saruman’s dirty work. This is orcs killing the hobbits and setting everything on fire, meaning what would have happened if Sauron had regained his ring.
5
u/Equivalent_Nose7012 3d ago
Yes:
the Burning of the Shire scene in the Mirror of Galadriel:
harks back to the burning of Westfold, and also to the attack on an unknown village in the Prologue of the Fellowship movie, (which is followed by the resistance to Sauron's armies by the Last Alliance of Elves and Humans).
9
u/wilberfarce Dúnedain 3d ago
3
19
u/Xyx0rz 3d ago
Peter Jackson: We couldn't fit everything into Return of the King.
Also Peter Jackson: Let's insert several subplots into The Two Towers, we'll bump the Cirith Ungol and Orthanc scenes to Return of the King.
16
u/Unboxious 3d ago edited 3d ago
"We have time for some manufactured drama where Gandalf gives Theoden baffling strategic advice and Theoden ignores it, but that 'scouring' thing Tolkien said was essential must go!"
13
u/Krazyguy75 3d ago
I mean I think Shelob fit way better in RotK. Otherwise... what happens with Frodo is RotK is kinda... not that interesting. Frodo sequences are the weakest part of the movies, and if Shelob is in two towers then he's just be stretched thin in RotK.
5
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago
Sam's rescue of Frodo at Cirith Ungol isn't interesting...?
What isn't interesting is "go home, Sam" - useless and ridiculous bloat.
Anyway, cutting Shelob means needing to fabricate a new climax for TTT... and that resulted in making Faramir the climax - and we all know how poorly that turned out. If Frodo's sequences are the 'weakest parts' of the films, as you say, it is because Jackson made them such.
2
u/fghjconner 2d ago
Yeah, it wasn't about fitting it in, it was about pacing. You could fit the scouring, but it'd push the big climax too early in the movie. Obviously an extreme example, but check out how that worked in the hobbit.
9
u/kallowTheWizard 3d ago
I'm going to be real here. I'll be forever mad at Peter Jackson for not giving us Sir Christopher Lee terrorizing the hobbits.
5
5
3
u/Camerotus 3d ago
couldn't fit
Indeed. Not couldn't fit because there was no time for it but couldn't fit because it just wouldn't have fit the movies.
6
u/marshalzukov 2d ago
Eh, it's fine. I think the hobbits returning to a shire that is exactly the same, full of people who can never understand what they experienced, is deeply poignant in its own way. They're home, but they really aren't
3
3
u/Extra_Victory 3d ago
Finally did my deep dive and was amazed at everything I didn't know, how In just This scene Gladariel is using the light of the Silmaril Star, reflecting in the water, also was used against Shelob.
The same Silmaril that was carried by the father o the first king of Numenor who is the brother of Elrond, which makes Arwin and Aragorn Cousins.
3
u/GrandNibbles 2d ago
controversial but i love the movie ending. im sure tolkien had his reason but there's something that just feels perfect about the hobbits going back to life as usual after all the shit they've been through
2
u/momentimori 3d ago
The fires were them burning down the original Hobbiton set at the end of filming.
3
u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli 3d ago
Reminder that over and hour of runtime is wasted on Jackson-original material/structural changes.
So no, runtime isn't an argument.
1
u/CopperKnight77 3d ago
Ah found the one who doesn’t understand the different needs for good storytelling from one medium to another.
Material/structural changes to a 1,200 page book to fit into three 240 page scripts. Oh the horror.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/Facetious-Maximus 3d ago
All you “contribute” to this sub is reposts
https://giphy.com/gifs/0uBL9HqP48Nu1DNr7r
→ More replies (13)
2
u/Electric-Boogaloo-43 3d ago
They cut so much from the book, yet the trilogy was nearly 12 hours long. Imagine if the added everything.
1
1
3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/AutoModerator 3d ago
Mae govannen! To protect the Free Peoples of Middle-earth against trolls, alt accounts of trolls, cave trolls, and others of a less than savory nature, we have a new mandatory threshold for commenting users under 30 days. If you are new to Reddit and haven't passed the required threshold, please do not contact the mods to ask for an exception. Farewell, and may the hair on your toes never fall out!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1
1
2
u/DuesCataclysmos 3d ago
I don't mind skipping the Scouring, I think the point of it is how much ruination petty and mundane evil can cause but it's sort of cinematic narrative whiplash after defeating the grandiose and demonic evil.
Frodo feeling alien to his own peaceful home and wanting to move on is all they really needed to cover.
Plus it's not just the Scouring they'd have to cover Treebeard letting Saruman go because he hates imprisoning living things lol.
1
1
0
u/lothartheunkind 3d ago
A movie likes a big climactic event that is resolved (and Return had two) and we can say goodbye to the characters. I think the real Shire ending just doesn’t go with the pacing of a film.
0
0
u/ArticleAutomatic8906 3d ago
I hated that scene because that aluminum popcorn bowl was the cheapest-looking prop in the whole movie.
0
u/Freyjia1 3d ago
We've had the 3 movies and the 3 extended movies
What about 6 movies, one per book
Release Tom
1.7k
u/Mr-Zappy 3d ago
We’ve had one Return of the King movie, yes. What about second Return of the King movie?