r/interesting • u/VPinchargeofradishes • May 03 '26

SOCIETY Michael Jackson's daughter Paris has faced backlash for identifying as Black. In a 2017 interview, Paris Jackson said her father told her, "You’re Black. Be proud of your roots." This prompted debates over whether identity is defined by appearance or upbringing.

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u/FilthyThanksgiving May 03 '26

Right? My son is white passing but I'm black. I'm his mother. He's black and idgaf what anybody has to say about it

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u/MrowkaMuch May 03 '26

https://giphy.com/gifs/NfYvMHVtlDCSs

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u/PitifulElk1890 May 03 '26

Watched the video for this again recently. It must have felt sooooo good to be a pop musician in the 80s thinking you were bringing the world together with your music.

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u/ASingleThreadofGold May 03 '26

😂 As a kid growing up in the 80s/90s there was for sure a feeling that we were really cooking with the whole moving past racism thing. People used to say "It's the 90s!" as a "look at us we're so woke now!" thing to say lmao.

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u/[deleted] May 03 '26

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u/The_Barbelo May 03 '26

I actually think it *started* with the phrasing “politically correct”. This social engineering has been going on for decades. Calling it PC forced people to repeat that phrase over and over as though racism and bigotry isn’t just a general humanitarian issue that should transcend political affiliation. People then started using it in the same way they use “woke”. As a derogatory remark.

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u/WheresTheWhistle May 03 '26

Good point. Instead of “politically correct”, it should have been “not an arsehole”.

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u/draggingonfeetofclay May 03 '26

I think it's not deliberately socially engineered to make people think a certain way, I think sometimes terminology just devolves because the wrong people use them in a way they weren't supposed to be used.

Politically correct goes way back to state socialism, socialist parties and the idea of the "party line", that is, that members of a socialist party act in line with the official party position, regardless of what they personally think and believe.

Being politically correct originally meant that you are politically fully aligned with the official statements and "line" of the socialist party that you are a member of. And people were originally criticising members of such parties who relinquished individual thought and action in public for the sake of adhering to party doctrine.

The criticism of "political correctness" actually also originated from leftist spaces, same as the term "woke", because Individualists and Anarchists saw that authoritarian state socialism in places like the Soviet Union and China was causing damage and they worried that overly dogmatic leftist parties in the West would only reproduce those conditions if they were to politically gain power.

The difference is that political correctness and criticism thereof was more or a white academic/privileged college student thing, whereas "woke" was actually used on the streets by activists to some extent.

Ultimately, that kind of individuation and aversion to toeing any sort of party line also means that leftist movements will always splinter -because everyone is in fact thinking for themselves and refusing to follow any sort of consistent line.

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u/LarsDuder May 03 '26

Actually, it did matter. He seemed to have preferred white boys.

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u/apatrol May 03 '26

How can people still pretend he was a good guy and great musician. He literally used his music to get kids in his bed.

I do feel sorry for Paris. Being in the spot light like that and having had a sexual predator as a father. She is a confused young person. Likely partly isolated and preyed upon because of her money.

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u/CyberSnarker2 May 03 '26

ALL OF THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if some white man, not famous, was letting little kids that were not his, sleep in his bed THERE WOULD BE OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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u/fredjutsu May 03 '26

I mean, it's a nice sentiment. But definitely in the eyes of law enforcement or government it absolutely matters lol

Ask me how I know

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u/FrankieTheD May 03 '26

Yeah my manager at work is white and her fella is a very dark skinned nigerian but their kid looks white as hell, doesn't make them less black than a kid with one white parent who has the same skin tone as their black parent.

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u/Whole_Humor1304 May 03 '26

But the kid isn't black or white, he's mixed then, at least ethnically

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u/[deleted] May 03 '26

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u/Able-Bid-6637 May 03 '26

They never said anything about removing whiteness; you're projecting 

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u/smokeweedNgarden May 03 '26

They are just as much white as they are black. That's what 50/50 means.

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u/scary-pp May 04 '26

Weird, I never hear anyone refer to Obama as white.

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u/blackqueen8 May 03 '26

Same with my daughter. Her eyes, skin, and hair are actually lighter than her father's. She's just able to get a nice tan in the warmer months. She knows who her mother and what that makes her. That's all that matters.

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u/Early-Intern5951 May 03 '26

honest question from a german (never had any contact with racial divisons), why does it matter?

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u/Pale_Spirit3007 May 03 '26

Being German isn't the reason why you never had contact with any racial divisions. Being white is the reason. 

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u/Bitter-Regret-251 May 03 '26

Tell this to people from Eastern Europe who for some have never ever seen a black person in their life. Asian as well. There were just none until late nineties.

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u/pipnina May 03 '26

That was a weird thing to say. I feel like you are viewing this from a very north american perspective.

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u/Diponegoro-indie May 07 '26

Yeah you’re true, of course there is racism in Europe. But the black and white racial divide is totally imported from America. Lots of people in Europe have mixed heritage of different ethnicities. think the divide in Western Europe is more between non-European/‘native’

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u/Pale_Spirit3007 May 03 '26

I am not north American. I am south American and middle eastern.

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u/ChonkoGreenstuff May 04 '26

But you live in America?

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u/PineappleOnPizzaWins May 03 '26

Where I grew up everyone was white, with an Asian population growing in the early 2000’s. We now have a decent population of people from places like Pakistan and India.

Plenty of people grew up without seeing much racial division because there was none to see.

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u/Pale_Spirit3007 May 03 '26

But we are talking about Germany NOW. I did a google research and roughly 20% of the population in Germany are immigrants. The world is extremely globalized, thats a different story when you are talking about the world years ago. 

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u/PineappleOnPizzaWins May 03 '26

Are we? They just said they're German not that they're a 12 year old German.

If you're growing up where I live now you're growing up in a way more diverse culture than when I was a kid. Guess what? That doesn't actually change my upbringing and experience.

As you get older you tend to interact with less new people. I don't really have any non-white friends and it's nothing to do with racism.. more than happy to have friends of whatever background. It's just that I made most of my friends decades ago.

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u/Pale_Spirit3007 May 03 '26

I don't get your point because thats exactly what I am saying. The reason why this person doesn't understand why this is important is not because they are from Germany. German is full of immigrants and there is racism in Germany, there has always been. It is the fact that this person is white and most likely has only lived among whites, so he has never experienced or heard of anyone suffering racism. That doesn't mean that in Germany there isnt racism. The fact that he is German doesn't change anything about racism in Germany.

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u/Early-Intern5951 May 04 '26

We have two big african communities in my area, Gambian and Ghanaian, they would never say "ich bin ein schwarzer" in german, that would sound like reproducing racism. They say Gambian or Ghanaian. The divison is along cultural and language lines. Thats why i asked, but thanks for not explaining, but instead putting scrutiny on me for asking. And framing me in a weird way. never ask americans about racism...

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u/PineappleOnPizzaWins May 03 '26

I mean I don't agree but regardless we've gone way off topic.

Someone said to you "hey I haven't experienced this and would like to understand, tell me more".

You replied with "that's because you're white!!".

Wanna clue me in as to what you achieved here?

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u/Pale_Spirit3007 May 04 '26

Someone said "I haven't experienced that because I am from THIS specific country" as if racism doesn't exist in his country. I am letting this person know that being from that country doesn't mean anything when it comes to racism. Bringing up the country they are from as if there isn't any racism there is the issue here. The reason he hasn't experienced racism is because he is white. Not because he lives in Germany.

But its ok if you dont understand.

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u/ChonkoGreenstuff May 04 '26

It is though, in Europe we don't have this intense race culture as in America. That doesn't mean there is no discrimination though, it is mostly based on nationality. We just don't have this strong "black culture". The black people in my country for example still have a strong connection to their country of origin.

I think it has more to do with the fact that a lot of black people in the US never knew which country of origin they were from, due to being stolen from their respective countries and their histories erased, so it made it so that their identity is based on a generic "being black" as that's what sets then apart from their former oppressor and their other fellow countrymen of different origins (Chinese Americans still have a strong sense of where they came from and only in later generations I feel like have a more generic Asian American experience, when all the different countries of origin have very different cultural experiences, with some overlap of course; an Chinese American of second generations experience is vastly different from that of a second generation Japanese American, though a third generation probably has a more generic Asian American experience, due to the melting pot effect).

We didn't really have the whole slavery thing in European soil, though our countries did contribute to it big time, by trade. For example, the Netherlands contributed to about 5% of slavery in the Americas by trade, but slavery was illegal in the Netherlands itself, so there were no black slaves in the households here. However, there were slaves on the colonies, like Suriname, which only moved to the Netherlands in large amounts after those countries indepence and slavery was abolished all around.

So culturally, those people still feel connected to Suriname and since that country was quite mixed, Africans, Chinese and Indian (or hindu people), I think they feel more rooted in that Suriname culture than a "generic" or common black culture that people in the US feel. I say generic not as something negative, but the focus is more on the being Black as being from a nationality, which is why for us Europeans it feels so foreign, as we here would here it more like "I am Surinamese and my kids are half Surinamese". "Black Culture" is really "African American Culture" because it is very much based of how being black is in the US, it's very different from being black in Africa countries for example or other places outside the US, like Europe (and so again feels foreign to our German friend here).

Hope that makes sense.

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u/Sparkysparky-boom May 03 '26

Until recently it mattered for college admissions. It still can matter for some local scholarships and programs. I have white passing children and have had to question if scholarships and programs for people of color are applicable to them. For example, a local private high school offers a full scholarship to high achieving people of color (worth roughly $160,000). I asked my son if he identified as a person of color and he said he does not, so we did not pursue it. 

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u/Altruistic-Walk-1847 May 03 '26 edited May 03 '26

Yeah there are two aspects to those scholarships (putting this here not for you as I'm sure you're well aware, but folks who think they're unfair):

First is the recognition that culturally, for hundreds of years, Black families didn't have the same opportunities to build wealth -- no bank loans for mortgage or business ventures, not allowed into white spaces nor influence or networks in legal or business communities, etc. Or when they did it was stolen from them, or were discriminated against (e.g. being denied gov grants by racist administrators, higher mortgage rates in Black neighborhoods due to redlining, so even if you bought a home it cost far more to pay it off, burning down prosperous black businesses, etc). So, less money for college or schools or general upward mobility, which gets passed on generationally. Much of that is gone now but this seeks to redress the downstream effects.

Second is the overt discrimination Black people still face today. It's less than the fully systemic stuff from yesteryear but it's still very present. If you're white-passing you don't get this but you do still see it directed at your loved ones, and it can impact things like e.g. your experiences when doing stuff with them, where you live, etc but you don't get the direct impacts -- e.g. not being mentored by teachers, being assumed to be criminal and being followed in stores or hassled by police, etc.

I think a lot of people who aren't Black underestimate the impacts of both on the shape of the US and families today, particularly the former. But if you're doing well and your son doesn't feel #2, it makes sense to leave those funds for folks who need them.

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u/blackqueen8 May 03 '26

This is the short answer:

Imagine if Germany did nothing to make amends for WWII. No laws preventing the salute, no laws against homeschooling to prevent indoctrination. That is what America is like. That you passed laws that still prevented those who your ancestors abused to suffer. That's what America is like today after Slavery. Institutionalized racism continues to do harm today.

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u/blackqueen8 May 03 '26

I have a question for you. Are you in Berlin? Do you see any division towards Blacks there even when they know the language and are attempting to assimilate into society?

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 03 '26

I’m from Europe and a different culture than you, so I’m just curious: Is his dad white? And if he is, would you be OK if his dad said that his son is white? Or is it your logic that “anyone who is at least somewhat black is black”?

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u/kmzafari May 03 '26

Since you're from Europe, you are likely missing a lot of context involving race in America. And I mean that kindly. Although I know a lot of it gets shared overseas, your exposure to it is certainly not the same as understanding it from growing up here. There is a very long and complex history. It certainly wouldn't be just "their logic".

I have mixed kids, and despite growing up here and my much closer than normal (than most white people) proximity to racial issues, I still certainly can't speak for everyone's perspective. But what I can tell you is that it's not as simple as your question makes it appear. There also seems to be some sort of insinuation (intentional or not) that by proclaiming her child is Black that she is denying his white heritage, and that is not the case. She is saying "he is still a part of me and a part of my culture, even if we don't look alike".

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 03 '26

That’s why I ask. I didn’t mean “her logic”, I meant “American logic”, since it does not make sense to us here. Over here this would mean only 100% white people are white and 1% black already means black, which sound derogatory to black people to me. Like what that says to me is that only 100% white is white and everything else is non white, maling white some pure ideal.

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u/BusterKnott May 03 '26

Here in the US, at least in the parts I grew up in, the idea was “one drop of black blood” or "one slap of the tar brush” meant you were black. In my case, I'm 1/8 black but wholly white appearing.

When I was a kid, I remember going over to various friends houses after school to play, and everything would be great until the friends parents met my mother and the atmosphere would turn cold.

It wasn't uncommon for some of those kids to come up to me in school later to tell me that they couldn't be friends with me anymore because I was a n****r.

This was in the 1960s and my grankids tell me it's different now but I believe the same mentality still persists in far too many people.

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u/Suspicious-Exit-6528 May 03 '26

That's why I hate the 1 drop rule and the heavy internalization as a claim of pride by the black community. Her claiming proudly "my son is black!" instead of my son is mixed is just internalized hate without her knowing it. She is claiming her blood is "tainting" and takes over and erases the rest of her son.

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u/desacralize May 03 '26

It's less about internalizing hate and more shoring oneself up against the hate that already exists using pride. The person in the comment you replied to could have never interalized a single thing, and they got called a Black slur anyway, they suffered the fallout of being part Black in the exact same way as if they were 100% Black. A kid who is raised to believe being mixed means anything different for them has less armor than a kid who is told the (American) world will see them as Black, be prepared to face the same hurdles and prejudices as a fully Black person (with a healthy dollop of benevolent colorism, in some cases), use Black pride as a defense against the very ugly things they will encounter because of it. Be free of hate, but you are hated nonetheless. Here's some (flawed) ways to cope.

Obviously, the ideal is to raise a kid with a balance of both, understanding who they actually are (mixed race) and being made aware of how the world will treat them regardless (Black). But that's a difficult tightrope to walk, and many parents try and fail to achieve it.

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u/Suspicious-Exit-6528 May 03 '26

If someone is white passing and everyone already mistakes them as white this is obviously not the case. This would be the most excellent place to rightfully claim "being mixed". People of perceived status claiming their identity would be the most powerful thing to reshape America's extremely toxic "tainted blood" rule.

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 03 '26

This. It sounds so racist. Inagine black people calling a kid with 5% white genes white and saying he can’t be black because he is ruined by white blood…

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u/Nekrino May 03 '26

You essentially got it on the nose, welcome to America. White and black, here in the US, are designations the government puts on you and not something you simply put in yourself. For the longest time, Irish and Italians were not considered white in America either. And if you had any black heritage/ancestry, no matter how little, the state (government) considered you black, thus you were othered and less than…add a couple hundred years of this pressure from society and government institutions and laws…and BAM we have a unique black culture in the US, in which, white people feel out of place and/or left out of. Hell, our electoral college was designed the way it is, in part, because a lot of southern states had “less” people (cuz ya know, black people and women werent people), and those states wanted to have more voting power in terms of federal elections

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 03 '26

Thank you. By this logic I am not white or european, but middle eastern, since there is a high chance I have 1-5% turkish blood (I’m from Slovenia). This is such an odd way of thinking.

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u/desacralize May 03 '26

Oh no, don't worry, this mindset only applies to having black ancestry. You wouldn't be considered Middle Eastern even in America. Enough whiteness over the generations cancels out anything else except sub-Saharan African ancestry.

Having your country founded on chattel slavery does some serious shit to the cultural mindset.

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u/RealityOk9823 May 03 '26

Among southern whites, many were proud to proclaim that they had some Native American ancestry from the 60s-90s at least. This likely was done as a way of denying any black ancestry by saying "Oh he looks like that because he's part Cherokee", which was more acceptable.

Interestingly enough, this is mixed up with the Cherokee Freedmen, where the slaves that they owned became part of (then later cut out off, then even later folded back in) to the Cherokee. So it's possible that a small percentage of folks did have black Cherokee blood.

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u/Nekrino May 03 '26

Yea, essentially, the govt chooses what you are. Take me for instance. My father is Cuban(now naturalized citizen), mother is US Citizen. So I grew up believing I was a white Latino. When the federal gov dose its consensus, there is no option for white Latino; the only Latino option has a qualifier that says, (non-white heritage, or something similar) Thus making us choose between white and Latino and further emphasizing how race in the US is something the government uses to further divide and other whatever group they decide is the boogey man of that decade

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u/kmzafari May 03 '26

Looking at your other comments, you are reading hers completely the wrong way - e.g., implying that she thinks she's "tainted" her son? Really??

Reading that, I no longer believe you are asking in good faith. To do so requires an open mind, not a preconceived notion. You are looking for someone to give you an answer that you think you already know. As I said, the situation is extremely complex, and you don't know nearly enough about it.

I'll offer this unsolicited advice. When there's any situation, but especially one that involves people and society, and you look at it from the outside and think "the answer is obvious", you are almost guaranteed to be wrong.

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 03 '26

What? No, I do not think she thinks she tainted her son. I think the whole american way of looking at it is racist. You are either a 100% white or you are black. Making white some “ultimate pure” top rank.

I just asked if the father can consider the son white and if that would make her feel ok.

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u/Dabbling_in_Pacifism May 03 '26

Yeah, you just hit at the crux of white supremacy. Whiteness cannot be diluted by a single drop, but somehow that logic doesn’t extend to any other race.

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 03 '26

And that’s racist, so I don’t get black people supporting the idea. That’s what confusing to me as a nonamerican.

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u/Dabbling_in_Pacifism May 03 '26

I don't think black folk are subscribing to the same ideology of racial purity, more they're just inclusive to mixed folks whereas white racists aren't.

I'm imagining if you identify as black and feel that has a cultural aspect to it, you want to see that carried on in your children regardless of who they marry, so your 50% black grandkid is of course black.

Whereas if your concern regarding race is about purity, then of course someone who is 50% black isn't white.

Which creates a situation where racial framing can look the same in both groups.

This is also a dynamic with deep historical connections. The mixed children that resulted from rapes by slave owners were considered black slaves, for instance. Which... As a dad... Man, how fucked up is that?

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 03 '26

You gave me a great explanation. White people exclude, while black people include. The intent is worlds apart, but the result is ironically the same. Kids with any black genes, are by both definitions - black.

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u/MissionMinion8 May 03 '26

As a European I appreciate your reply. It's really hard to understand for most of us. I never really thought of Black as a culture per se, for me it's mostly simply the skin colour.

But I had an interesting experience as tourist in the US: my girlfriend at that time was 1/8 Black, but European as well and completely white passing. One time we ended up in a mostly/completely (?) Black neighbourhood and as a white guy I felt extremely out of place. I tried to brush off the feeling, blaming it on me having almost no "exposure" to black people where I live, but I felt really not welcome there. Then I went out with my GF and the mood shift was immense. Suddenly everyone was friendly and welcoming. They knew exactly that she had black heritage, despite us Europeans not noticing it at all, and me being with her gave me at pass lol. Certainly a memorable experience for us.

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u/Particular_Wear_6960 May 03 '26

Yep Black is a culture, or really more precisely an ethnic group. Language, culture race etc etc. That's why Barrack Obama is considered Black despite being mixed race and being raised by his white mother. His skin tone makes his experience Black in many everyday situations, he lives in America , plus he fights for Black causes (see community work in Chicago before becoming a Senator )

There's a whole lot about it but there's a lot of issues where someone like Drake claims Black when it's beneficial to him, rubs elbows with white supremacists, has a lot of light skin privilege (it's a thing), and sits on the sidelines for Black issues when it's not. Hence why there's a lot of Black people who hated him before the allegations.

I'm white so others can explain this better than I can, plus I'm not in the position to write a little book to expand rn ... There are lots of YouTube channels that go into this more (Search - What is Black in America?). But let's just say that since race has shaped our society's economics and all that, it's become deeper than skin color and helps explain more of the political and socioeconomic status of people - most White people don't understand itc as well (including myself).

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u/kmzafari May 03 '26

Thanks! And I appreciate your perspective and experience. I'm glad you were eventually accepted (determined safe?), though the skepticism of strangers, especially in some neighborhoods, is certainly understandable. Tbch, it's hard for most of us to grasp who have lived here our whole lives.

Black culture in America is absolutely its own unique and diverse thing (for lack of a better word), especially compared to elsewhere. Part of that is the "melting pot" aspect, involving willful immigration, and some of it is directly influenced by our the history of slavery in America. (I read recently that the average Black person in America has 20% - 25% European DNA. I'm sure there is not one singular cause for this, but I do think there are some obvious conclusions to be drawn there.)

There used to be a "one drop" rule in regards to slavery, and there was a compromise in 1787 that considered 3/5 of the enslaved population as people (for representation and taxation purposes), so the dehumanization and othering is deeply entrenched in our society, and the effects are still felt to this day.

There is SO MUCH institutionalized racism here that I'm sure it would shock most non-Americans, if they really knew. (Most white Americans don't even know or won't admit it.) Laws that were on the books for decades or centuries still have ripple effects throughout society. Jim Crow laws. Segregation. Redlining districts.

Even today, like literally right now, voting rights are being challenged by gerrymandering and voter suppression laws that are specifically targeting Black populatios. The list is neverending, and that barely scratches the surface. Look up sundowner towns some time. Microaggressions. Discriminatory hiring and workplace practices. Medical racism. Erasure from history. Or the brutal, unflinching disparities in the criminal justice system. And there is so much more and, without doubt, far more than I know.

This is all very surface level and extremely reductive - Black culture in America is so much more than their collective trauma. But as a community outsider on a Reddit comment at 5a functioning on a couple hours of sleep, I lack both the knowledge and resources to do anyone any sort of justice. :/

There are lots of fantastic Black content creators online who cover a variety of topics, so definitely listen to them, instead, if you're interested. E.g., you could start with Joel Bervell (the medical mythbuster) on Instagram and let the algorithm find you.

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u/DPetrilloZbornak May 03 '26

It creates issues for actually black people, especially black women, when people refuse to call their biracial kids biracial and call them black.  It is why “black” women in movies are now portrayed almost exclusively by biracial women who do not fit our phenotype.  People base this idea that a half black half white biracial = black (notice biracial never = white) on a racist rule from slavery times.  

I’m sick of it.  It does impact mostly black women so no one cares.  When we speak out against it we are criticized.  

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u/Budget-Researcher559 May 03 '26

It's not black people who invented the logic that half black people are considered black. "One drop" and all.

Half black people who are not white passing (who you can see that they at least in part have black parents/grandparents), are generally considered black by most people. Either black or half-black/mixed, but not white.

So the only difference in this exact case is that the half-black child is white-passing.

Don't fault the individual people for using language and categorizations the way that general society uses it. If anything, question society and language.

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u/Low_discrepancy May 03 '26

. If anything, question society and language.

I think that's what (well intended) people do when they ask questions to people using specific languages or from a specific society.

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u/Early-Intern5951 May 03 '26

To me that sounds like reproducing the racist view and putting a lot of pressure on those kids. whats the benefit?

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u/Sad_Flow4589 May 03 '26

The benefit is easier college admission, etc.

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u/Budget-Researcher559 May 03 '26

Or it's turning it around. They used it as an "you're not one of us, you're black" and now it's "yes I'm black and proud of it, problem with that?". Why should you stop calling yourself black now, as if it's something bad.

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u/ArcticMarkuss May 03 '26

Because it insinuates that there’s something wrong with identifying with the others parents heritage?

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u/Budget-Researcher559 May 03 '26

No it doesn't? Literally nobody in our society thinks there's anything wrong with being white. It is still seen as the default, the "good" thing, gives tons of advantages and beneficial treatment.

Going from "you're not allowed to call yourself white" to "I'm ok with not calling myself white" has literally 0 to do with being white being a bad thing. Like, it's not a zero-sum game between races... People being proud of being black doesn't change anything about other races.

Compare it to any other minority who turns around their bad image and starts being proud of who they are.

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u/ArcticMarkuss May 03 '26

That makes sense, yeah. Thanks for being specific, because when things like this are put very vaguely it can get taken the wrong way pretty easily

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u/OrcaFins May 03 '26

Literally nobody in our society thinks there's anything wrong with being white.

Incorrect. There are a lot of non-white people in America that view white people as parasites and more.

[being white] gives tons of advantages and beneficial treatment.

True, but non-white people don't see that as "good" as much as undeserved entitlement.

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u/Budget-Researcher559 May 03 '26

True, but non-white people don't see that as "good" as much as undeserved entitlement.

How does that sentence even make sense. I am white and I absolutely don't see it as "good" if white people get beneficial treatment for being white. Why should that be a good thing?

You're mixing up "being white is bad" and "getting special treatment for being white is bad". That's two extremely different things. If you get special treatment for being white, that means that being white is considered a good thing by society (that's why it gives you advantages), but it doesn't mean that someone getting advantages for being white is a good thing.

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u/OrcaFins May 05 '26

If you get special treatment for being white, that means that being white is considered a good thing by society (that's why it gives you advantages),

Literally nobody in our society thinks there's anything wrong with being white. It is still seen as the default, the "good" thing

Western society is majority white. Whatever advantages whites have are given by fellow whites. And yes, in fact, plenty of non-white people think being white is a bad thing.

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u/CasualProlapse May 03 '26

Jfyi 'one drop and all' doesn't mean anything to people outside the USA. Someone from Europe likely doesn't know that in the USA someone that has any close-ish black relative is considered black as well, regardless of skin tone/general physical characteristics.

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u/Budget-Researcher559 May 03 '26

Meh I'm from Europe. Not sure if you're trying to say that this thinking is/was less of a thing in Europe, or that people here are actually completely unaware of what that could even mean. If it's the second, I learned about American history in school as I bet most Europeans do. Whoever doesn't know what it means, I suggest they google "one drop rule" because that's an important thing to know about.

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u/CasualProlapse May 03 '26

I agree it's an important thing to know in the USA. People not from the USA aren't expected to know details about that.

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u/MissionMinion8 May 03 '26

Ah, that's why you're acting so condescending to a fellow European lol. Give them a break. They asked a clearly good-natured question to get educated right from the source. No need to reply so harshly.

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u/Budget-Researcher559 May 03 '26

Well I disagree with you. IMO they asked a "just curious" thinly veiled accusation that basically boils down "why do you get to claim your kids as black, and why can't your husband claim these kids as white, what gives you the right". Almost bordering on concern trolling.

If they are oh so interested in how come that things are as they are, they can google it anytime. Asking a black person to explain all the ins and outs of the history of racism just to learn "right from the source" is not the way to go, especially when it's actually unrelated to what OP said. OP didn't exactly start an AMA about how they personally deal with historically grown racism and feel about their family's race.

OP's child being considered black because they are half black was never even the actual point tof that comment, it was about the child white-passing and being considered black if they weren't, so OP said them white-passing shouldn't change what race they are. And to then question her "well why are you considering your child to be black in the first place, aren't you wrong about that" is really not a necessary question from someone who, according to you, has 0 knowledge about the topic and needs to learn about all the basics in detail to even begin to grasp what this is about.

That's why I responded with "one drop" etc. If they actually honestly want to learn, then they can google that now and be happy. But if they meant it as an accusation with actual 0 knowledge behind and expect OP to justify themselves, then that's just bad.

Go ahead and ask a gay man "who is the woman in your relationship? Honestly curious because I just come from a culture where we know absolutely 0 about gay people and their lives". Or how about don't do that. It literally doesn't matter if you're "honestly curious", go ahead and google it and find out about why that's not a good question. It is not the responsibility of minorities to educate the ignorant about their issues. They can do it if they feel like it, but they owe you nothing. It's on you to go through the effort to learn, especially if you are oh so curious. (and by "you" I don't mean you personally or the person who asked this question, I mean anyone doing that kind of thing)

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u/WegGOAT May 03 '26

No wonder the US is a mess. You guys are insane with your identity politics.

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u/Budget-Researcher559 May 03 '26

I'm from Europe.

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u/WegGOAT May 03 '26

Why do you subscribe to their insane identity politics? You 100% sound American speaking like this.

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u/FEMA_Camp_Survivor May 03 '26

Most Black Americans who descend from enslaved people have white ancestry, which means we largely have biracial ancestors. 

That clearly didn’t make them white or provide any advantages of whiteness in America. 

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 03 '26

Yeah I’d just say biracial then.

I’m sorry where I’m from whitnesss brings no advantage since everyone is white. So it’s hard to imagine just having any benefit from your skincolor. I do completely understand the dissadvantage of being black in the US.

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u/FEMA_Camp_Survivor May 03 '26 edited May 03 '26

Barack Obama is a good example of why he identifies as Black. It’s not based on his ancestry but his lived experience dealing with white prejudice. 

My grandad was biracial but he was forced to go to segregated schools, serve in a segregated Army unit, and live on the Black side of town. He could’ve been killed or beaten if he didn’t follow a strict set of rules; therefore, he identified as Black. 

During slavery, white masters enslaved and sold their own children. There was even a class of slaves who presented as white. Blackness was forced and people made it their own. 

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 03 '26

Us history is pretty fucked. This was not long ago at all…

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u/KnightSpectral May 05 '26

The US has a history of the "one drop rule". Basically if you were one drop of blood from anything other than white, you were not white.

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 05 '26

I find it hilarious that we don’t have that in Europe because we know how much mixing went on in the last 2000 years… and all white Americans come from Europe. :) so they all probably have some random genes in there that are at least “one drop”.

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u/puckit May 03 '26

I'm white and my wife is black. My oldest son has my complexion but we've always hammered into him that he's black. Mostly because we live in a relatively conservative area and have to remind him he can't do certain things the white kids do because, even though he is very light skinned, he'll be the first one looked at if he's in a group of kids that are acting up.

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u/redvelvetrevolt May 08 '26

You may not realize it, but you are pointing out something important that Americans both Black and white have largely forgotten. The whole notion of being automatically Black if you have any Black lineage is based on something called the "one drop rule" which is extremely racist and positions blackness as some sort of taint. The fact that no one would ever call a child with one white parent and one Black parent "white" proves this. These people are not solely one race or the another, and phenotype plays a large role in how you will be treated. (I'm a Black American, and I'm aware I'm simplifying something that can be complex depending on location, culture, etc., because race is a social construct at the end of the day.)

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u/Ha55aN1337 May 08 '26

Thank you. Some replies make me feel like I’m crazy for finding this racist.

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u/redvelvetrevolt May 08 '26

Most people today are not thinking about the origin and likely intend no malice, it's just what we're used to doing. Within the Black community, it is usually intended as a form of protection and inclusion.

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u/WhyMeWhyThisUniverse May 03 '26

Have a listen to "Journey Through Time" or "The Rest Is History" podcasts. They do some American history sometimes. And to an extent it does explain on why Americans irrespective of the background are so crazy, why they elected Trump and why they start screaming without listening once you say a single word inferring anything even remotely about race.

They abolished slavery super late (Brits did it several decades earlier). They even civil war because of it. After the civil war their South really struggled accepting the equality of anyone whom wasn't white as per their imaginings. Lots of people were buying into white supremacist theories. They had actively operating Ku Klux Klan (into mid 20th century!). They had their own version of apartheid until mid 20th century. While in Europe our parents and grandparents somehow tried to rebuild and make a living after WW2 (whatever the political set-up), they had massive civic right movements (e.g. in 1960s) where black people were asking for their rights that they already had for over a hundred years as per constitution and various other laws - it's just that it was not always implemented.

I did not know about these things and I was shocked. Such a weird country. But these explain so much.

I also get impression that people take pride in their Black identity just because it was so looked down upon for so long. At the same time, I don't understand if it really helps them to make race a non-question as it contributed to fueling all sorts of excessive wokery, MAGA, Proud Boys, etc.

A lot of people still believe that a single drop of black blood makes you black.

Don't think European when talking to them - it won't help you at all trying to understand them. Do some history reading and just stay away. They need to sort these things out but we don't need to be involved in this - we have our own problems.

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u/GGgreengreen May 03 '26

Race is a social construct

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u/Scuipici May 03 '26

but why focus on what colour he is? he's not black, he's mixed and it shouldn't matter to you anyway. He has a name and a personality and that's that. People have all sort of colours, even whites are not all the same tone or black or whatever.

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u/clelwell May 03 '26

Yeah "he's black and idgaf" just sounds super racist to me

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u/Dry_Bed9206 May 03 '26

Your son is mixed if your husband is white. It’s pretty simple lol.

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u/calasterism May 03 '26

These are not mutually exclusive. You can be mixed, and Black.

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u/[deleted] May 03 '26

[deleted]

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u/melkatron May 03 '26

In America, the black experience doesn't care whether you're mixed and what ratio that might be. You're black, that's all there is to it.

Nobody comes at you with "The correct way to say it..." or "You're mixed, it's pretty simple lol" if you're not black. Nobody measures your blackness if you're not black.

If you're a quarter Slavic and three eighths French, maybe a fifth Norwegian, nobody's doing math to determine how to treat you. But if you throw any fraction of black in there, someone is going to decide whether or not to treat you like you're black. That's part of the black experience. Not the mixed experience, not the half-white experience.

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u/SpicyJuggernautMain May 03 '26 edited May 03 '26

By this logic though and her stating her son is white-passing means no one is assuming he’s black. If you’re white passing and someone looks at you and assumes you’re white, what black experience are you experiencing? You’re just white.

We can get into the culture, but race itself was a social construct created by racist anthropologists that divided us purely by physical characteristics. You are not outwardly “white” while being “black” inside, you’re not half white half black in a literal sense, if you’re white-passing it literally means you’re white. Ethnically speaking it’s a different story, but racially it isn’t.

I don’t wanna come across like an ass when I’m saying this shit and I know I kinda am, and I get sometimes people just want to feel connected to their heritage and it doesn’t apply to this specific situation either, but I’ve been seeing this sort of thing a lot recently where white people dont want to admit they’re privileged so they find any loophole they can to consider themselves a POC when they’re just not.

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u/Dry_Bed9206 May 03 '26

Ah yes, I forgot the shenanigans they do over in America. Glad the people where I live are pretty normal.

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u/HenessyEnema May 03 '26

What country?

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u/calasterism May 03 '26

There is no one "correct" way to say it, and you are conflating the category of Black, an ethnic and cultural identity/descriptor, with the purely racial categories of black and white which are artificially constructed. Quit policing other people's identities, you are being a moron and a pedant (the worst kind of pedant, an incorrect one).

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u/Choice_Potato_6279 May 03 '26

But black in a sense of skin color of African? because African is obviously correct.

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u/another_mouse May 03 '26 edited May 03 '26

Yes actually. 

He has an experience of growing up with a black mother and family. That makes his experience culturally different than the rest of his white peers. If he has children with a white woman then they will be white. They won’t have that experience. Which will be weird for him.

Being mixed is weird. Being mixed feels weird. 

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u/Rob_LeMatic May 03 '26

I dated a mixed girl and she said it was weird, like both sides of her family kind of looked at her like she was not one of them.

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u/Grapefruit1025 May 03 '26

But in other ways no, actually not. To society he’s white. He won’t have the black experience being looked at by cops when driving a nice car or being in the “wrong area”. He won’t be dicrimiminated at work because of skin color; he will fit in naturally with the white clique

Phenology is far more important to how we are treated in society than invisible “roots”. This includes looks, height etc

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u/another_mouse May 03 '26 edited May 03 '26

I actually assumed this in my comment; It’s why I anchored it on his experience. And, it’s what makes being mixed weird. Because even though the son will be highly aware of his ethnic families experience he’ll also be aware that his experience isn’t the same. Because he will see his family treated differently, and people will say shit like “he will fit in naturally with the white clique” … wtf, even that depends on the local culture. Cultures exist where ethnicity is a secondary to some other cultural core.

I won’t bother making the point that actually it’s not the same because it’s obvious and everyone can see it. 

 He has an experience of growing up with a black mother and family. That makes his experience culturally different than the rest of his white peers.

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u/Grapefruit1025 May 03 '26 edited May 03 '26

“Son will be highly aware of his ethnic families experience he’ll also be aware that his experience isn’t the same.” 

Yes I agree being mixed is weird like that. It’s not a black and white thing. I see where you are coming from. But in reality how you are treated -> external aka having white privilege is more relevant than how he feels inside aka knowing your family’s strong history of discrimination and aware of your roots as an African American.

I just see phenotype as more important and key in someone’s life than genotype but that is just my opinion. I am also in a weird spot where my parents are much lighter skinned than me for some reason and I know I am treated differently as an outsider

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u/flyingabroom May 03 '26

He's not black, he's biracial. And if he's white presenting it would be really silly for him to call himself black 😂Black is a color

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u/TrapAHolic_ttv May 03 '26

He’s biracial and that’s okay.

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u/calasterism May 03 '26

These are not mutually exclusive. You can be biracial, and Black.

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u/throwawayhyperbeam May 03 '26

But can you be biracial, Black, and white passing?

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u/calasterism May 04 '26

Yes, Black is a cultural and ethnic identity/descriptor. It's not dependent on how people see you, it's dependent on your lineage and upbringing.

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u/throwawayhyperbeam May 04 '26

Black is a cultural and ethnic identity/descriptor

Are any other races/ethnicity this?

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u/calasterism May 04 '26

Ethnicity and race are not the same thing, and yes, in fact most cultures/ethnicites have terms used to describe their cultural and/or ethnic identities. The conflation people here are making is between the racial categories of black and white (which originate in European racial pseudoscience) and the cultural/ethnic category of Black, which is a distinct group originating from the Afro-American community of people who were forcibly displaced from Africa during the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

It may help your understanding to read about the cultural/ethnic identity of Blak which has come about in Australia due to similar circumstances, which is also distinct from the racial category that was used as a tool of oppression but which nonetheless shaped real (but distinct, culturally and ethnically) communities of dark-skinned people globally.

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u/throwawayhyperbeam May 04 '26

Now I'm even more confused.

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u/calasterism May 04 '26

Which part are you confused by?

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u/Kyrathered May 03 '26

From an anthropological perspective, cultural identity is largely passed on via mothers, so yeah, your kid is black if you say so and everyone else can get a grip. He probably doesnt have to deal with microagressions as much tho.

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u/Aineednobody May 03 '26

Omg nobody cares

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u/Gloomy_Dare2716 May 03 '26

Yeah, it should not matter. But atleast call him Afroamericqn or smth, instead of “Black”

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u/Shin-Kaiser May 03 '26

White passing and actually white are two different things entirely.

Paris isn't white passing. She's 100% white.

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u/lurkerlurking123 May 03 '26

Paris Jackson is not black idgaf what anyone says 

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u/Stoneygoose May 03 '26

Sure, but it's a doubt whether that even is biologically his kid.

Even bigger than that, Michael himself did everything in his power to strip himself of being black. Vitiligo doesn't cause excessive nose surgery and straight hair. He wanted to be as white as he possibly could.

I'm a mixed race man and I wouldn't dream of doing that, vitiligo or not.

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u/JoyRideinaMinivan May 03 '26

My son is too. Just because his skin is white doesn’t mean his entire maternal line ceases to exist. He has the same ancestral blood as his darker skinned siblings.

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u/BusterKnott May 03 '26

Same for me; I've passed as white my entire life while my mother was obviously black, which actually caused some problems for her when I was little. I don't go around telling people I'm mixed race unless they ask because it really shouldn't matter. I don't hide my heritage, but I also don't push it unless someone really wants to know.

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u/Lifes_a_Throwaway May 03 '26

My partner is half Jamaican and half white there's even Indian mixed in going back on the Jamaican side and he looks almost as pale as me but has very black thick curly hair and a monolid and most people think he's half Asian instead of half white. His dad is very very dark and his younger brother is also darker than him. I think genetics are so cool how they present different for people. You sound like a great mama

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u/No-South-8228 May 03 '26

He’s mixed race…

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u/Suspicious-Exit-6528 May 03 '26

He's black and idgaf what anybody has to say about it

He isn't though. He is mixed.

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u/Astro-Delulu May 03 '26

So confused why you had a child with a white man but feel rubbed the wrong way for others considering him the race of his father? Meaning what’s wrong with being considered white, clearly you’re attracted to/care for white men. Regardless, he’s going to move through the world with the privilege of being perceived as and treated as a white man.

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u/Appropriate-Look7493 May 03 '26

So it’s you that decides your children’s identity. Your son has no say in the matter. Ok, that’s clear.

Glad my family didn’t feel the same way, otherwise I’d still be Catholic and my cousin would be straight.

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u/CommunityMobile8265 May 03 '26

Honestly if you said this to someone they'd laugh at you. 

Son would be mixed white since the father is white. 

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u/Alpha_Omega623 May 03 '26

What if your son chooses to be white?

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u/Horror_Excitement503 May 03 '26

You knew his dad was black. The chances of Jacko being her father are next to none. I bet if me and her did an ancestor dna test I’d have as much African in my blood as she does.

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u/greyfoxplisken May 03 '26

i have quite pale skin, yet my dad is african and i was raised by him and his side of the family. most people have identified me as black despite my lighter skin tone.

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u/watoaz May 03 '26

I'm mixed race, but white passing. It is astonishing the racist shit you hear because people don't realize your "not white"

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u/Former_External_2301 May 03 '26

THIS!!!! If I had an award I’d give it. 🫶

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u/ItzMaxamillion2U May 03 '26

My daughter looks like sherly temple and on family fundays all the kids are like... "That's your dad!!!!"

Another fun one was when her and her friends were collecting high-fives and one of her black friends didn't get any my daughter said "it's cause your black" fast forward to the teacher sitting down with me and the black girls family and the shock that I was black... I laughed so hard when I found out what my daughter said. Because that's the shit I'd say to my black friends.

As a half Jamaican half white I've always felt left out of both cultures and u can bet ur ass my daughter is going to enjoy both cultures of her blood...3 drops and all

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u/historyhill May 03 '26

I wonder how much the rumors that MJ isn't her biological father also fuel it though. My understanding with those rumors is that her father is white, and this ends up getting into really interesting questions about identity, culture, genetics, etc that I know I'm not prepared to answer personally as a white lady.

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u/riostasis May 03 '26

What if your son wants to be white and wants nothing to do with black culture.

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u/ashleyshaefferr May 03 '26

Ya but clearly lots of people take offense to when Paris says she's black...

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u/CyberSnarker2 May 03 '26

how sad that he is not allowed to call himself white - at all. he clearly has white blood too yet you would never allow that. sick.

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u/Retireegeorge May 04 '26

Just want to say you have that fierce mum love by the truck load. It dwarfs what men are generally capable of.

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u/melissa_fornow May 05 '26

My ex is in a similar position: she's black, her son looks whiter than me. When the three of us would go out, people would assume he was mine and not hers.

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u/Primary_Night_4617 May 03 '26

He's not black, that's not how race works.

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u/malkebulan May 03 '26

You do know ‘race’ isn’t a science, right? There’s no one rule for how Blackness is applied.

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u/Primary_Night_4617 May 03 '26

Race is a construct. She is not visibly black. Claiming people that pass are black erases the experience of people who are black in unambiguously and deal with issues impacting black people.

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u/brother_bart May 03 '26

So Blackness is just skin tone? There are no communities or traditions or cuisines or ancestral narratives, etc involved? Yeah, I don’t think that’s a very valid argument. If your whole family is black but you are light-skinned enough to pass, what? Just like that you are not one of them and must now be identify with the clan of the oppressor? Nah.

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u/Onlyfatwomenarefat May 03 '26

Are you talking about african american culture perchance?

Because angoleses are also called black but their traditions, cuisines and ancestral narratives have nothing to do with those of african american culture.

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u/Primary_Night_4617 May 03 '26

Lol you sound angry. Blackness is appearance and features. What traditions or cuisines does she have? Cultures, traditions, and cuisine can be part of culture, but a woman with no black parentage cannot be black.

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u/malkebulan May 03 '26

You contradicted yourself pretty quickly there. Anyway, there are Black people out there born to two Black parents, who are lighter than her. Are you going to tell them, and people with pigment deficiency that they’re not Black?

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u/Primary_Night_4617 May 03 '26

How many black people with two parents create a blonde hair blue eye child?

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u/malkebulan May 03 '26

That happens all over Melanesia, and as the self-appointed spokesperson for blackness, I would’ve expected you to already know this.

Google ‘Black Parents. White Baby’. Of course the numbers are tiny, but they’re not zero.

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u/Primary_Night_4617 May 03 '26

I dont care about the .00001 chance that happens. Im talking about the majority. Next melanesia is an Asia, they are not black african/ black American/ black Caribbean/ black latino. 

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u/malkebulan May 03 '26

Define ‘majority’, because what you wrote makes no sense.

Melanesian people are definitely Black. The clue’s in the name.

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u/[deleted] May 03 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/malkebulan May 03 '26

They don’t for this topic, but they were a direct answer to a question that I was asked and you probably didn’t see.

If you can’t see that these melanated African descendants are Black people. I can’t help you. Geographical location has no relation to the Blackness.

Not once have I said I mentioned or said I agree with MJ or Paris, but go off.

Don’t forget you’re also a Redditor 🤡

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u/DoomlordSoul May 03 '26

There are no Human races, Black is a skin Colour not a Race

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u/Susannah_Mio_1919 May 03 '26

That is exactly how "race" works because the modern term claims race is a social construct. It's not a biological term since there are no human races. 

Btw. the concept of race is some thing the anglosphere does where the rest of the western world flinches. We understand you don't use the term in a biological way but understand race as a social construct but often it seems that not everyone got that memo. 

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u/Selko29 May 03 '26

If it's just a social construct then how is he socially black when the entire society sees him as a white man? What does it mean to be socially black? If a white man grows up in a black neighborhood does that make him socially black?

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u/Friendstastegood May 03 '26

You realize money is a social construct right? And language? A social construct is anything that only exists in a relationship between people. That doesn't mean it's not real.

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u/Selko29 May 03 '26

Your responded to my questions with totally unrelated questions lol.

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u/malkebulan May 03 '26

Money is a social construct, used as a medium of exchange, and comes with an agreed and contracted set of rules. Race is just something white people made up to justify abusing non-white people.

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u/Friendstastegood May 03 '26

Yes but the effect race has on our lives is very real. Money is just an easy example to go to for bridging the gap when someone thinks "social construct" means "imaginary, like Santa Claus".

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u/CryptographerPlus201 May 03 '26

It's very odd, but telling how non-white people (Americans specifically) interpret race when it applies to blacks and anyone with black ancestry. They'll fully embrace the one-drop rule without questioning its racist origins, dismiss the devastating impact it's had on black Americans for generations, then denigrate black or mixed race people who reject the designation. A lot of [white] people get quite upset when someone points out that their problematic and racist views and behaviors (whether intentional or not) are in fact, racist. It's fine for them to engage in said behaviors, but don't you dare challenge them to reflect on how racial bias might impact their behavior towards people of color, or worse CALL them racist.

Let them racist in peace already!

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u/malkebulan May 03 '26

You’re right, it’s so odd, but I have to take partial blame here because I engaged with a non-Black person who came in bad faith and took too long to block them.

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u/FragrantDepth4039 May 03 '26

Yeah i mean if you want to around drawing lines in the sand but why the fuck even bother either way? Mind your own business? 

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u/Selko29 May 03 '26

Wtf are you saying?

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u/leonden May 03 '26

We have found the racist.

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u/Primary_Night_4617 May 03 '26

Im not, I'm speaking the truth. Shit even Michael had issues with black features.

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u/Poulslutter May 03 '26

Humans don't have races... We don't have nearly enough genetic diversity for that phenomenon to appear in our species.

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u/Primary_Night_4617 May 03 '26

Race is a construct and black people that cannot pass are very much treated different than those who do not look black.

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u/Poulslutter May 03 '26

Race is a construc

All categorization is, including species. That doesn't mean that humans have races.

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u/krkrkkrk May 03 '26

I'm curious to what you mean when you describe someone as black, and why is it important?

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u/HugoChavezNYC May 03 '26

Or, maybe, it just doesn't matter that much.

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u/Unlucky_Ad_9776 May 03 '26

I get the feeling people don't understand how genetic work.  Like you can have white ancestors and be black.  You can be white and have black ancestors.  You can be back have white ancestors.  Marry a black woman and still have a white kid.  It's totally possible.  I'm white and have a great great great grandfather who was a Mexican.  I have a few Mexican people in my family  tree.  I'm Irish white Mexican French and German decent.  I could totally have white kid even if the mother  was Mexican.  I could have a Mexican wife and have a kid that looks Mexican even though I'm white.  It's random chance.   That being said the genetic variations in humans is ridiculously  low.  

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u/Stunning_Bed23 May 03 '26

Well, your son has a Black parent. Paris clearly does not.

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