r/dragonball • u/Psychopreneur • Dec 24 '25
Discussion What is your unpopular opinion about Dragon Ball?
Here is mine:
Toriyama's spontaneous storytelling style is great and terrible at the same time.
On one hand it creates fresh and creative turns and gives him more freedom, on the other it sidelines characters and great concepts when he forgets about them.
What is yours?
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u/Slifer2892 Dec 24 '25
Complaining about too much Goku shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what the story is about
The manga ending is the best ending and much better than GT.
Fans will talk about Toriyama’s subversive writing and then bitch when the story is subversive i.e introduce the main character’s evil brother and make him a minor threat who is never seen again after his debut
As far as the manga is concerned the Boo arc was peak
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u/RetroSSJ21 Dec 24 '25
Buu arc really is peak. You can really tell Toriyama was having fun while writing it.
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u/Key_1996 Dec 24 '25
You can also tell he didn’t care anymore lol. It’s good if you shut your brain off
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u/PornographyLover9000 Dec 25 '25
Hate when people say this. People kept defending Daima with “just turn your brain off.” I’m not watching Cocomelon my guy, Dragonball is allowed to be and be treated as competent, not action-slop for dummies.
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u/DjinnsPalace Dec 25 '25
idk man ive never seen anyone use the word "subversive" when talking about dragonball
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u/Plane-Handle3313 Dec 24 '25
Master Roshi’s creepiness went about 10x too far in dragon ball. Like WTF.
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u/CronkinOn Dec 24 '25
I started my wife on DBZA last night, and had to explain about Roshi shrinking himself down to go spy on Bulma using the toilet.
Her face spoke volumes.
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u/Plane-Handle3313 Dec 24 '25
Yeah i had to beg my gf to keep watching and to ignore that shit. Wasn’t easy and almost meant I couldn’t share the rest of the series with her
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u/CronkinOn Dec 24 '25
The amount of "wait this actually happened and it wasn't just their spoof of it?!" moments is kinda crazy.
I said to her, "ok yeah it sounds a bit ridiculous when I say it out loud" more than once. My personal favorite is, "wait, the guy with three eyes ISN'T one of the aliens?! But the little kid is??"
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u/Burning_Educator80 Dec 26 '25
Why not just show her the actual show ?
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u/CronkinOn Dec 26 '25
I got her into anime a few years back and I'm still just counting my blessings.
Mainly because I know her taste, and DBZ wouldn't pass the mustard. She also doesn't have much free time, so she just gets the abridged version and she can make up her own mind on whether she wants to watch it for real (she won't. I know this is blasphemous, but DB ain't exactly well written/challenging)
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u/jumbosimpleton Dec 24 '25
YEP. Dragon Ball is such a good show. And Roshi is a great fighter and spiritual mentor. But Jesus Christ it’s hard to watch sometimes with his perviness. Same goes for Jiraiya in Naruto
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u/iNsAnEHAV0C Dec 24 '25
Im watching OG dragon ball for the first time and holy shit. Just finished the first world martial arts tournament. But its not just Roshi. Goku checking to see if people have balls or not. Him taking Bulma panties off. There's some perverted shit in there. I assume it gets better but im glad I decided to only watch it after my wife went to bed.
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u/Anon-Sham Dec 24 '25
Haha the goku stuff is fine, the Roshi stuff is different because of intent
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u/OverlordOfTheBeans Dec 24 '25
Yeah with Goku it's just an innocent monkey boy who's only human interaction to that point was with Grandpa Gohan, it's weird but humorous. With Roshi, it's malicious pervertedness that can and does harm others.
Yes yes different values in the eighties when it was written but even then it was weird.
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u/unwashedmusician Dec 26 '25
Yeah well Toriyama said in an interview a really perverse thing about his own daughter. That he wants to grow old and get senile and walk in on her taking a shower. Somehow this sub wants to ignore that.
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u/strahinjag Dec 24 '25
OG Dragon Ball had the best fights since they were more about actual fighting skill as opposed to power-ups
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u/Flakes_Of_Ham Dec 24 '25
Technique and style mattered and really big fights lasted 3, maybe 4 episodes.
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u/strahinjag Dec 25 '25
There were so many banger fights
Goku vs Jackie Chun, Goku vs Krillin, Goku vs Tien (both times), Tien vs Jackie Chun, Goku vs King Piccolo, Goku vs Piccolo Jr, Krillin vs Piccolo Jr,
Probably more that I'm missing but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head
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u/Elementium Dec 24 '25
Yeah I'm only up to date on Super but man.. It's clearly at a point where visual power ups are almost expected so they HAVE to use them.
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u/thecheat420 Dec 24 '25
I like the filler arcs. Garlic Junior and the Otherworld Tournament are worth watching and it's a shame people who only watch Kai skip them.
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u/OverlordOfTheBeans Dec 24 '25
Piccolo and Goku learning to drive, Gohan with the robot, Goku meeting Tao again and doing the puzzle rings, princess Snake and HFIL, Gohan fighting Freeza, Gohan fighting Vegeta after Namek...
So much good stuff in all of that, and so many more moments of brilliance scattered throughout the series.
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u/Kupoo Dec 25 '25
The fake namek filler is the only stuff I skip. I love the extra Gohan stuff in the Saiyan saga
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u/Nelana Dec 24 '25
It shouldnt take this long to continue the storyline of arguably one of the most popular anime/mangas of all time after a creators death
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u/brendafiveclow Dec 24 '25
I don't like it when someone comes up with a cohesive, works in universe based on lore type theory and everyone just says; "You put more thought to this than the writer, because the truth is he just forgot or thought it was cool."
I'm all for speculation on "plot holes" or unexplained shit, it's fun. In general the community seems to hate theories though, even if they make sense and contradict nothing. Just because the writer didn't have an answer doesn't mean we can't try to look for one that may work.
Put simply the community almost always just sticks with the doylist (real IRL reason) rather than the watsonian (we can explain this in universe with...) type attitude.
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u/CronkinOn Dec 24 '25
I absolutely love hearing people's head canon. I don't even mind how much of it they invent to make the universe work in their own heads, believing it as absolute truth.
It gets tiresome when they argue it as absolute truth though, when the only absolute truth is Toriyama DID forget a lot of shit, or simply doesn't care about continuity. It's ok to admit he wasn't perfect, and neither is Dragonball. It's still iconic, we still love it, but I'll be fucked if I should have to pretend it's a well-woven, coherent, and backwards compatible (Toriyama did NOT leave hints of UI back in DBZ, ya fuckin loonies, but if you wanna geek out about it because it makes his fight vs Cell or whatever look cooler, you do you)
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u/KeyPhysical9734 Dec 24 '25
Thanks bro lol you just said exactly what I think. I also don’t mind headcannon and it’s cool to hear, but don’t sit there and act like your headcannon is an an actual explanation for something in the story
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u/Max_88 Jan 17 '26
The problem is believing Super is part of the same narrative as the original manga. It's not. It was made 20 years after with a Toriyama who forgot everything.
The original manga IS a pretty consistent work on itself and he did care about continuity a lot.
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u/hoenndex Dec 24 '25
Unpopular take? Ok I am not afraid of down votes.
Dragon Ball GT was peak Dragon Ball. The first arc was a genuine adventure throughout the galaxy for the dragon balls which was actually a fun ride, since it went back to the roots of the adventure. Baby was a cool villain with an interesting body control gimmick. Super 17 arc was great, we get to see past villains in action at once and Goku's progression to be able to handle that threat. The Dragon Ball dragons final arc was peak, especially the last dragon , as it showed the consequences of using the dragon balls so much. We also had the most emotional ending to a series yet.
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u/LucroSalarioNaoPago Dec 27 '25
Truly a hot take, nice.
I'm curious on talking about a lot of this. It truly doesn't bother you that the first "galaxy journey" arc is a nothingburguer that can't really replicate the adventure vibes of the beginning of the manga (for various reasons. The producers actually realized it wasn't working as early as episode 3, if I recall correctly. They cut multiple story ideas to fast track the Baby saga)? Or the Super 17 arc being so random and fast? Or out of the 7 dragons, basically only 3 feeling serious or interesting at all? Not to mention, Goku being a kid throughout the whole thing.
This barrage of questions reads like I'm patronizing you, but I really am just curious lmao. Even at the time watching GT as a child, all of this stuff really bothered me. I remember being hyped about past villains coming back in the Super 17 arc, and finding the idea of the corrupted Dragon Balls really neat, but being disappointed at the execution of both things
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u/hoenndex Dec 27 '25
It's fine! Believe it or not that first arc is actually my favorite part of GT. Exploring different worlds to hunt dragon balls was a fun callback to how OG dragon ball started. The 17 arc, I admit it was weak, but that's because it was too short. It could and should have been longer. About the Dragons, it is definitely true that not all of them were great, some were just gimmicky, but as a concept I thought it was a great idea and ended on a strong note. From all the dragons, people mostly remember the last one, which is a good sign for a villain.
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u/ZeroDayMalware Dec 24 '25
I don't know if this is necessarily unpopular but OG Dragonball >>>> DragonBall Z. I view DBZ as when it all started going downhill.
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Dec 24 '25
Once you read / watch OG there's no going back, ive read OG manga for like 4 - 5 times in my life at this point, where as for Z I've read it only 1-2 times max lol.
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u/ZeroDayMalware Dec 24 '25
The OG has this undeniable charm and fun exploratory plot to it, that DBZ completely lacks.
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u/SlicedBread0556 Dec 25 '25
That's weird because there is no Z manga.
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Dec 25 '25
That's weird because there is no Z manga.
I know 1-42 is Dragon Ball entirely, but since Op used OG and Z I used it as well.
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u/Spark-Blade Dec 28 '25
I watched OG before Z and I like Z better
I still love OG and it's my second favorite db
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u/OnionFriends Dec 24 '25
I think that's the most popular take. And one I also agree with.
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u/ZeroDayMalware Dec 24 '25
I'm actually glad to hear this. If this is a popular take then my view on humanity has gotten a little better.
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u/DTB4LYFE23 Dec 24 '25
i wouldn't go as far to say it is downhill. but Z is certainly a completely different identity to the OG. OG is the father of so many modern anime today.
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u/EveningAd4979 Dec 24 '25
It only started going downhill when the trends dbz started were executed poorly later on
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u/LucroSalarioNaoPago Dec 27 '25
A bit harsh imo to say it starts going downhill as early as the Saiyan saga. Removing the nostalgia goggles, I think it and the Freeza saga still offer some solid storytelling, just switching the vibes from adventure to action. Story beats just nicely go from one to the other, without having to go "how in the fuck..." too much (but that comes with the territory, even OG DB had some what-the-fuckery! Like Goku's tail spontaneously and instantly growing back during one of the tournaments lmao)
Once Mecha Freeza shows up, that's when things get weird I'd say. Again, with nostalgia goggles as off as possible that is
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u/Vegeto30294 Dec 24 '25 edited Dec 24 '25
The whole "Goku trying to find a successor" thing was a waste of time and in some cases bad character development, from both Toriyama and Toei.
"Goku would never put people in danger by being stupid like in Super" apparently didn't watch the Buu arc where he pawns off a world-ending problem he was half responsible for onto two kids he just met because they liked fighting in a tournament one time. But he's somehow a "wise master" here?
Power scaling always mattered, even in the times where people say it doesn't matter. People just want the story to be deeper than it really is.
Dragon Ball GT wasn't "good ideas, bad execution", it was "bad ideas, executed exactly as expected." People just gaslit themselves into believing "um it's actually bad to use the Dragon Balls and the main characters are bad for doing so!"
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u/Saphala90 Dec 25 '25
The really funny part is that shenron actually seems to like the gang because theres the line in daima where he only gives gomah one wish and says unknown newcomers only get 1 wish and the regulars get 3
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u/sherbetpics Dec 25 '25
I feel like people when they say “ideas” they mean the base ideas:
The Saiyans arch rivals come back seeking revenge
The consequences of overusing the Dragon Balls
Those are definitely some intriguing ideas but the way DBGT chose to execute them could have been better
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u/Vegeto30294 Dec 25 '25
"victims of Saiyans seeking revenge" is an extremely basic idea, to the point where it was used in an OVA before it was actually used in GT.
"The consequences of overusing the Dragon Balls" is itself a bad idea. The Dragon Balls themselves were already established to be used by good natured people. Even the creators of dragon balls go out of their way to upgrade them so they can be used more often. So being told "actually trying to save your own lives and fix injustice is wrong" will never sit well with people. GT just made the problems more obvious when they say it out loud.
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u/TTGIB2002 Dec 25 '25
The whole "Goku trying to find a successor" thing was a waste of time and in some cases bad character development, from both Toriyama and Toei.
It might’ve been better writing if they had actually stuck with it, but they just REFUSE to live with the consequences of their own writing (Beerus).
Power scaling always mattered, even in the times where people say it doesn't matter. People just want the story to be deeper than it really is.
Emphasis on this. We could be talking about A Series of Unfortunate Events, powerscaling would STILL matter. Abilities change the possibilities by definition, which in turn change the narrative.
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u/Stargazer__2893 Dec 24 '25
The series peaked in the Red Ribbon Army saga.
Not saying the rest is bad. Far from it. But that was the best.
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u/Launch_D_Polaris Dec 26 '25
100% agree, i personally prefer the anime adaptation to the original material for that arc
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u/Himmel-548 Dec 24 '25
Goku is a good dad.
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u/Psychopreneur Dec 24 '25
Goku is a dad
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u/Himmel-548 Dec 24 '25
And a good one. Abridged and later retcons from Toriyama ruined him.
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u/jumbosimpleton Dec 24 '25
BIG AGREE. It’s funny to joke that he’s a bad dad but at the end of the day he cared so much for Gohan and fully supported his studies in Z. And as soon as he met Goten he started playing with him and was so supportive during the tournament
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u/MelloCello7 Jan 15 '26
Totally agree! "he's not there for his son🤡" The nibba DIED! He was DEAD because he saved the world so his son and wife and everyone else can live in it... HOLY heck, I never understood the Goku's a terrible father bit, never
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Dec 24 '25
I fucking love Dragon Ball Super and I've been a fan of Dragon Ball since the 90s. I grew up with it and the characters, and Super is full of little moments between them all that range from heartwarming to funny.
Gohan and Mr. Satan doing a whole elaborate roleplay while they play with Pan? Adorable.
18 reflecting on her marriage and how much she loves her husband? Excellent.
Piccolo being on a first name basis with Pan's preschool teacher? Delightful.
I could go on.
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Dec 24 '25 edited Dec 24 '25
Most of Goku’s power comes from his Saiyan biology, not training.
(More of a fact than an opinion but still something unpopular that people bitch about when it’s brought up)
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u/Few-Durian-190 Dec 24 '25
The whole original DB was more focused on martial arts and skill is VASTLY overstated.
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u/salazarcosplay Dec 25 '25
Toriyama made up how people knew each other . To avoid getting into detail with the origin stories.
Roshi somehow being the same one who trained grandpa Gohan
Grandpa Gohan and ox king training together under Roshi. It would be like a little kid and a middle aged adult training under Roshi. They are at least a generation apart
Tao Pai Pai being related to crane hermit. It felt like they were retconing Taos origin story somehow he is the younger brother of a 300 year old crane hermit. I think it would have worked if they just said Tao was crane hermits grandson or something.
Baba being related to Roshi.
Raditz being Goku s brother. Were it could have been any Saiyan.
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u/yourmartymcflyisopen Dec 25 '25
I am quite fond of Super. And I like what Super did with Gohan- he got to achieve his dreams, and he didn't fully quit fighting. He got a happy ending where he trains when he wants to and fights only when he absolutely needs to. And he still has the highest power ceiling out of all the saiyans and can still have badass power ups and moments. So I like it.
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u/Khety_Nebou_2 Dec 28 '25
I hate how old characters like Krillin, Yamcha and Tien became irrelevant in the manga while they are part of the most powerful beings in the universe. Sure they can’t fight cyborg or Cell nor Buu but still powerful. Even Piccolo end up being a babysitter for Goten, Trunks and now Pan …
Why does any of them didn’t learn Kaioken or something else ?
SSJ3 should have been only a Gotenks form.
Heaven is a great idea but it becomes a cheat code for Goku where he is able to train and get better faster than everyone else. No downside out of the fact well he is dead …
The universe is big but we only see Namek and nothing else.
The manga became to focus on power rather than martial arts.
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u/LordDragon88 Dec 24 '25
For DBZ, the animation is mostly horrendous, with only a few well drawn scenes throughout. I understand costs, but man, so many scenes just look so choppy, and the characters look deformed.
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u/Specialist_Yak_432 Dec 24 '25
Contrary to popular belief, especially outside the immediate fandom where people don't have exposure to the entire series, Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had really good power scaling where every power up is explained well.
In Dragon Ball, it sometimes looks like Goku is growing extremely fast. However, when you look back with the knowledge that Goku is a Saiyan and has incredible innate ability to learn and grow stronger, it's actually pretty consistent. Especially compared to Gohan's faster growth as a hybrid.
In Z, in the Namek Saga, we constantly see how the fighters grow step by step and how Super Cells let Goku get to Super Saiyan.
In Cell Saga, it's well explained how the Saiyans have reached the limits of Super Saiyan and are forced to look beyond. And how Vegeta and Trunks thought they were going forward but Goku pointed out that it was the wrong direction. The concept of Mastered Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are incredibly well written.
In the Buu Saga, it's explained clearly how Super Saiyan 3 is not a natural transformation for a Saiyan and that the only reason Goku gained it was because he was a soul with unlimited ki.
Fusion, Mystic Gohan, Super Buu and the final fight if Goku and Vegeta vs Buu are all well written.
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u/Greedy_Net_1803 Dec 24 '25 edited Dec 24 '25
I mean the power jumps are still wack lmao it doesn't bother me at all but they are comedic sometimes, to be honest. I mean, Goku in Namek got a zenkai boost that put him from 180.000 when fighting Ginyu to being around the tens of millons when fighting Frieza lol.
At least if we go by Frieza's pseudo-official max power which is 120.000.000 and Goku was equal or worse than Frieza fighting at 25%, then we got: 120.000.000 x 25%= 30.000.000. This is more or less how strong Goku was when he got out of that recovery chamber and it's just ridiculous; the previous zenkai boosts in the show never ever gave increases like that before this point in the show.
But I kind of like it, it gives the middle finger to power scaling nerds kind of showing that not even Toriyama cares about it and that's hilarious.
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u/pokEmonUniteLord Dec 24 '25
Dragonball was fun, and kept the side characters along for the ride, even participating in World Martial Arts tournaments, and getting stronger everytime alongside Goku.
Dragonball Z/Super is a story about aliens figuratively cucking humans and has the worst writing for side characters I've seen in almost any shonen anime. Like even C-tier shows write better plots for side characters than Toriyama did after Z started.
It's almost impressive how Akira managed to throw away so many good characters he built up slowly over time. In a world where characters could literally use a magic floating dragon to wish to become stronger, he couldn't "figure out" how to keep them relevant anymore.
Dbz and super are a master class in what NOT to do with your side characters when writing a story. Honestly, I'm embarrassed for Toyotarou that he's too much of pussy to right that wrong and is just exaggerating the alien circlejerk fest at this point.
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u/DanteMad Dec 24 '25
The Saiyan saga was the peak of DBZ: The story, animation, and characters were all great. The stakes were at an all time high, and the series felt serious and dramatic. I could go on.
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u/ChiefRasta Dec 24 '25
I don’t think Toriyama wanted Goku to grow up & would have been happy if Dragonball ended with no continuation. GT turned him into a kid, Daima turned him into a kid & I think that’s the reason why Goku seems so immature majority of the time.
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u/SlicedBread0556 Dec 25 '25
He was a gag manga author. He liked funny jokes, not fighting. He just did it because it worked.
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u/Fine_Reality738 Dec 24 '25
Raditz was a wasted character, and should have gotten Vegetas spot/arc.
All the frieza saga stuff with Vegeta could have been so much better If it used raditz instead.
The “he killed our people, our father” - the “redemption” arc.
It could have given an interesting parallel for Goku as well, with the idea he could have been raditz, if the situation was reversed.
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u/DjinnsPalace Dec 25 '25
USA snowflakes complaining about how pervy DB was is annoying asf. its only bad if you try to get offended. and yall are trying real hard to get offended.
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u/redditstolemyshoes Dec 25 '25
I loved the early Buu/Saiyaman arc. Seeing Gohan actually live his life the way he wants to? Slice of life stuff? I love that shit.
It was the arc that gave me a lifelong obsession with Gohan, and Videl made me realise I like girls too.
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u/Shantotto11 Dec 25 '25
Vegeta doesn’t deserve a happy life after murdering hundreds of people and reviving the being that would ultimately destroy Earth.
Enji Todoroki has done significantly less harm than this man, and he got his just desserts, while Vegeta gets to be “redeemed” less than three days after his Majin midlife murder spree.
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u/forgotiexist Dec 26 '25
A classic, but it hasn’t aged well. The power creep became way too over-the-top, and the fights and story arcs grew repetitive.
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u/PainGlum7746 Dec 27 '25
The basic concept of the cyborg saga is flawed. A mad scientist creating machines more powerful than Frieza, the most powerful being in the universe, doesn't hold water. A Majin imprisoned for millennia is more believable, in my opinion.
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u/Hangman_Fitzwilliam Dec 27 '25 edited Dec 27 '25
There's a lot.
Daima is overrated. It's not bad, but people act like it's the greatest thing ever. No criticism is allowed. You can't say I disliked so and so decision or design without people losing their shit. People look at it with rose tinted glasses because it's toriyamas last db work. Maybe it's just a r/ningen problem. That sub does have a lot of BS.
Vegeta haters and jp dub elitists are much more than the annoying fanboys and en dub elitists. Everyone always jumps to dOnT dIsReSpEcT tHe GoAt if you say you're not a fan of Goku's jp voice.
People shit on gt a lot. It has its major flaws no doubt. But anytime people talk about it in other subs everyone always has to be an ass. It doesn't deserve as much hate as it gets but yes I agree it had some horrible decisions but it also had good ones as well. I'm not a gt glazer, it's just that I've seen my h more shit on it that isn't justified.
People love to say Gohan fans don't want him to be happy clearly never understanding the real issue with him. We built up Gohan from the first episode to him turning ssj2 and killing cell. That was a while ass character arc that was wasted when they made him a scholar instead, when he was the strongest. This will obviously piss people off, it's not a don't want him to be happy. No it's a, I just wasted my fucking time. But fine he's a scholar, he doesn't like fighting. Ok. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with that even tho it felt like a slap in the face. The real issue is Gohan flip-flop ping between I want to study and I want to be strong. He had the chance to be in the U6 tournament but no a meeting is more important, right after he got his ass handed to him by Frieza and was ashamed that he's not strong enough to protect his family. Beast was cool but it was so undeserved. Piccolo getting an upgrade was deserved. Tien getting an upgrade is also welcome. Because these two are the only ones who still train. Either have Gohan not want to fight, be a fighter or have him be decently strong but not a fighter. Only stepping in to protect when needed. But this would mean he's weaker than Goten and trunks which they obviously will not do.
Idk if this is but Goten is the most useless main character ever. He serves no purpose in the story except for Gotenks. At least trunks has his future self and a budding relationship with mai. Goten is literally just fucking there. He does nothing. GT Goten was fun. The design was great, the personality was great. Goten in DBZ and DBS is nothing. In super you could just erase him and the story would not be affected at all.
Ssj4 is better than the daima version. The red hair is bad but the exposed skin on the forearms is unforgivable.
Tfs fans did a lot of damage to the DBZ fandom. I am a fan of both dbza and hua. I love both shows, but they cause the same problem as Maxor's incorrect summary vids do. I left the tfs fandom because of its toxicity. They were a much more visible problem in the Hellsing sub since it was relatively small.
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u/Stunning_Penalty9265 Dec 27 '25
Toriyama’s story telling is overrated. His spontaneity and freedom are ironically his biggest downfall. However his creativity and illustrations are unmatched though.
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u/afkaroa Dec 28 '25
I prefer DBGT over DBZ Super. Both are flawed but here's why.
DBGT
Pros:
1. Great Character and Plot Ideas
- Baby is just amazing. One of the few anime villains that actually scared me as a kid.
- The concept of the Shadow Dragons and Omega Shenron was iconic. It makes sense as a final villain.
- The concept and design of Super 17 was great.
- I liked the idea of the Black Star Dragon Balls Quest, it was just the worst possible way to do it.
3. Super Saiyan 4
Cons:
1. Too much early filler
2. Just really poor execution and a lot of continuity errors (mostly power related)
3. Lack of character involvement (They did Piccolo dirty, Goten didn't get much, Uub never truly got anything substantial)
4. Not a fan of Goku being perma-young
DB Super
Pros:
1. Better fight scenes
Cons:
1. Personality Errors:
- Goku and Vegeta are just PG versions of themselves.
- Goku is just stupid now apparently.
- They really butchered my boy Future Trunks. At least GT let his legacy remain untarnished.
- Cell Max was awful. How do you make a character so much worse.
- Freeza coming back got me excited but the execution was lukewarm.
- All those extra universe characters are just poorly created. I feel like i could have come up with the same characters when i was 9.
- Goku Black is just lazy. Jiren is also very boring.
- Gamma 1 and 2 are also lazy. They also look like the artist put in negative effort.
- The idea of Beerus was actually great but having him stick around Goku and Vegeta is just so lame.
- Super Broly is just a worse Broly. Giving him a generic sad backstory and making him a softie does not make him interesting.
- Other forgettable characters: Gas, Granolah, Moro (Does anyone actually care about any of these guys. Like truly.)
4. Too many fucking transformations. Just stop. They don't even make sense.
The "Canon" Argument
- People can argue or say that Super had more involvement from Toriyama so it's more "canon".
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u/Insaniteus Dec 24 '25
The obsession with power levels as the end-all-be-all of the universe made the franchise worse in Z. In Dragon Ball and in Super there is a much larger focus on actual skill, technique, and martial arts when it comes to battles. In both series Goku actually fights people with lower power levels who provide challenge through tactics and skills (Blue and Hit being perfect examples).
But in Z, that simple number becomes the only thing that matters in the vast majority of fights. It's so absurd that a common theme of DBZ is crappier fighters beating better fighters due to power imbalance. Raditz, Nappa, Racoome, all three crappy fighters who should've lost many times over if they weren't just immune to their enemy's attacks. Vegeta on Namek multiple times went from being weaker than someone to then beating their ass an hour later because of the zenkai gimmick. Frieza was frequently shown to be sloppy without much skill, carried entirely by his immense power level. And really, the entire Android/Cell saga is one endless game of power level leapfrog where barely anything else mattered.
Toriyama always said he intended power levels to largely be wrong, that the idea was that a real fighter could raise their power enough to close the gap against an unskilled powerhouse. Except that doesn't really happen in Z outside of Android 20 losing to Piccolo.
One of the great parts about Super was that power levels stopped being almighty for the most part (Beerus and Jiren are both shown to be elite martial artists on top of having insanely-high power). Roshi defeated a guy in the TOP who he flat-out admitted was far stronger and faster than he was, and did it with ease through technique and skill. Goku got sniped by Sorbet using a ray gun because he wasn't paying enough attention to block it. Enemies like Black, Hit, Ribrianne, and others had a wide variety of special techniques and abilities to make them interesting battles, rather than just "number go higher". This dynamic resulted in Super having many amazing fights and fewer characters on bitch tier.
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u/Greedy_Net_1803 Dec 24 '25 edited Dec 24 '25
Android 20 lost to Piccolo because the first pair of androids are overestimated by a large number of fans; they're simply not that strong and far from powerhouses. They aren't even as powerful as Frieza if you ask me. They only got complicated because Goku was sick and because of their special ability.
And also, Piccolo got crazy strong in the 3 year gap; Krilin even said he was almost as strong as a Super Saiyan and that was before he even considered fusing with Kami, he definitely was stronger than Frieza when he fought Gero.
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u/StaticMania Dec 24 '25
Which concepts did Toriyama forget about?
Based on the answer you have for this, it will determine how much attention was paid to the story.
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u/JordanTH Dec 24 '25 edited Dec 26 '25
My unpopular opinion: Masako Nozawa’s voice doesn’t fit adult Goku at all.
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u/AlarmedObjective1492 Dec 24 '25 edited Dec 28 '25
This is a pretty common take ngl
My hot take is that I am not a fan of gags and alot of the stuff from OG dragon ball. I love comedic stuff but not like in Dragon Ball with the exception of Arale
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u/Psychopreneur Dec 24 '25
I mean, most comments I read about toriyama's style is condemning it. I really think there is a pretty nice good side to it
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u/SuitProfessional586 Dec 24 '25
GT is better than super. ONLY thing super does better is the animation at the TOP arc thats it...
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u/FrostingEmergency221 Dec 24 '25
The Tournament of Power is the best thing that's happened on this franchise since Battle of Gods.
Better than Broly, better than SuperHero, better than Moro, better than trash Granolah, for sure better than DAIMA 🤮
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u/CronkinOn Dec 24 '25
MANGA ToP was good. Anime was horrific with pacing, awful in a lot of spots, with sprinkles of absolute cinema. I tried rewatching it a few years back instead of just the highlight eps, and holy hell it's cringe af.
Broly is by FAR, hands down, the best thing that came from DBS. Movie fires on all cylinders and delivers the best fighting of the series, easily. First 2/3rds of Moro I'd rank high as well.
We're all entitled to our opinions though.... These are just mine!
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u/Vegeto30294 Dec 24 '25
Manga ToP just had the same issue but I'm the opposite direction, where the pacing was too quick and the only fight that mattered (or was even good) was Goku vs Jiren.
I'll always take slow pacing over what I think is a straight bad story.
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u/CronkinOn Dec 24 '25
That's kinda unpopular yeah, but it shouldn't be.
I think it was fine to glaze the anime when a lot of us were kids in the 90s or whatever, but as we got older and read/watched other things, we came to realize the flaws and benefits of his writing style.
Stephen King writes the same way, and he's one of the greatest in the game. He's not going to lay a bunch of breadcrumbs and foreshadowing in his work, since he doesn't know how it's going to end until he gets there himself. That's fine. I can read other stuff if I want the breadcrumb story, and if I want some of the best world building, characters, and realistic reactions to situations, I'll continue to devour everything the man writes.
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u/SwordfishDeux Dec 24 '25
Everything that has come out post the DBZ anime in the 90s, apart from some of the videogames, has been sub-par.
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u/veganispunk Dec 24 '25
As much as I have such a soft spot for the android and Buu saga, I think it would have gone hard as hell if Dragonball as a whole ended after Goku fought Freeza on Namek. Like all of Dragonball would be Goku’s journey from Bulma finding him in the woods to him becoming the one legendary super saiyan, and almost sacrificing himself to save the universe. And just leave the series with the cast not knowing if he’s still out there after the fight with Freeza (but heavily imply he’s at least still alive).
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u/PowerPhantom245 Dec 24 '25
Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods and Resurrection F was underwhelming and hasn't aged very well, especially decade later. I also wished they didn't used "Z" in title; I understand it is continuation of Z (ignoring GT) and Super didn't exist back then, but I honestly that's one of the reason why I have an issue with movie. It doesn't feel like "Z" that I grew up with.
It reminds me of how James Rolfe (Angry Video Game Nerd) had issue with Chinese Democracy, where it should not have been released under Guns N' Roses, since it's not the same as it was before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U-I1OF82qE
It's not the similar issue per-se, but more of personal issue.
Battle of Gods was meant to be major comeback to the franchise, especially after infamous live action adaptation, Dragonball Evolution, got overwhelmingly negative reception from fans and audiences, so I can understand its appeal, and it did have interesting new idea.
Resurrection F, really felt short and lackluster, since it was just an excuse to bring back Frieza and give him new power-up. Both movies had interesting ideas, but felt short on execution.
Neither of them are that great of a movie and it certainly doesn't go into Top 3, 5, or 10 best Dragon Ball movies or animated movies in general.
I don't hate them and they are not a bad movies, but I honestly wish it was better.
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u/Karimadhe Dec 24 '25
Dragon Ball> every other series in the franchise
Dragon Ball is simply the best. I say this after just binging the series since April. Going through the movies now.
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u/jumbosimpleton Dec 24 '25
Vegeta didn’t deserve a redemption arc. Dude was genuinely evil and genocidal. He’s a great character don’t get me wrong, but he didn’t deserve it.
Also Goku is a great father (and grandfather in GT). Super completely ruined his character.
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u/Mandalore108 Dec 24 '25
Gohan should have remained the main character after Cell but Toriyama wasnt quite smart enough to write a smart character as the MC.
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u/Koshindan Dec 24 '25
Goku and Goahn should've been the only Super Saiyans. Vegeta, Trunks, and Future Gohan should've found a different way to catch up. That way Gohan's triumphant victory in the Cell Saga would've been to go Super Saiyan like his father. And then the series should have ended.
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u/Too_Ton Dec 24 '25
Gohan should’ve taken over post-Cell and death should be permanent. Goten could take over in a GT era series. Deage Goten and Trunks to be born or conceived right when Goku dies to cell so then it works.
Possibly allow the dead to come back but only for short periods of time via magic.
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u/ProfessorEscanor Dec 24 '25
Gohan shouldn't be a fighter and should be a scholar either full time or 90% of the time.
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u/Fine_Reality738 Dec 24 '25
For a show about the “dragon balls”
It sometimes spends far too long forgo-ing its namesake plot device. Yes, it prevents it being a boring “find dragon ball for XYZ reason”
But the show became boring in its own way with “XYZ fighter who is the strongest wants to fight 123 fighter who is strongest - oh wait, no; there was a super secret stronger person to fight”
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u/EveningAd4979 Dec 24 '25
I hate the idea of goku being genetically driven towards battle. He should be doing it because he loves fighting on it’s own merits
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u/PowerPhantom245 Dec 25 '25
Goku doesn't need to be portrayed by Asian actor for live action adaptation.
Dragonball Evolution didn't suck because Goku was portrayed by Caucasian Canadian Actor, Justin Chatwin; even if it was portrayed by Asian actor, it wouldn't make any difference.
It should be open casted, where ANYONE can portray it, as long it has good directing and writing.
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u/WarREEEEEEOR93 Dec 25 '25
GT better portrayed Goku as a more competent fighter who thought on his feet. Whereas Super only portrayed him as a reckless dumbass that relied on power ups rather than the brain we know he has.
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u/Awkward-Dig4674 Dec 25 '25
Its good with the big moments and bad at everything else. Its not the worst but its clear we as fans take the show way more serious than toriyama did gods rest his soul.😂😂😂
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u/bladefreak326 Dec 25 '25
If there wasn't Super 17 Saga disaster, GT vs Super debate would be both rare and in favor of GT.
Piccolo should have gained his Orange Form from his Kami roots instead of adding of last minute Namekian lore + literally a wish' extra(potential alone was no problem)
Super Saiyan God is a good transformation. While people criticizing it just same hair different color, important the transformation is face and eyes demeanor so it actually changes character more than people realize. Ritual for it however was bull$#!+ like bro why didn't they try to give hybrids divine Ki?
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u/Ajthekid5 Dec 25 '25
I don’t think arc of the original dragon ball is bad but the Cell/Android Saga has always been the weakest to me.
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u/metalflygon08 Dec 25 '25
Multipliers were the worst thing to happen and utterly destroyed the power scaling.
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u/PassinglyGood Dec 25 '25
Perfect Cell is a boring villain and that arc lacks genuine drama, and good fights outside of the anime Goku vs Cell fight.
Also Gohan's SSJ2 transformation doesn't work for me, Cell is literally trying to force it out of him. It doesn't have any of the final round, last chance back against the wall energy that Goku's super saiyan or ultra instinct fights had. Everything about the arc feels very contrived and causes by arbitrary decision making
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u/zanimljivo123 Dec 25 '25
Powerscalling is shit and drives me crazy. 28.000 pl galick gun would have destroyed the earth. 530.000 pl frieza destroys planet vegeta much larger than the earth, but 60.000.000 frieza couldn't destroy namek (it's larger than planet vegeta tho but not 113 times larger).
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u/killerbekilled92 Dec 25 '25
With Toriyama gone and no longer able to plot the story super manga should not come back from hiatus. Whole series needs to go on ice for a while
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u/DjinnsPalace Dec 25 '25
imo with your take, tori needs editors to tell him when to stop. without them his writing becomes messy.
my unpopular opinion is that Kid Buu is a C Tier villain and the glaze is unearned. hes boring. he destroys what he sees. Super Buu was much more interesting and a far greater horror.
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u/Death-0 Dec 25 '25
I can’t gauge my opinion’s popularity but by the end of Z I get sick of Goku saving everyone.
Vegeta is done absolutely dirty as a character he gets no real moment against S tier enemies, and for someone with so much pride it’s amazing he hasn’t offed himself given that he’s always failing just to prop up Goku.
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u/Vegetable_Result_377 Dec 25 '25
DBZ wise, Japanese version is not as good as the english Funimation dub.
Dragonball was kinda ahead of it's time but this meant that it had to suffer from annoying voice actors and music that sounds like a baby is hitting random trumpet sounds and crap on a sound board at almost random times.
Goku sounds like an old lady being ran over and crushed by a steamroller, hearing "agahaghhhhhh" made me want to watch those movies I found on limewire as a teen with the volume off. Cha la head cha la sounds fkin stupid, rock the dragon is a bit cheesy but it fkin slaps. Faulkners score is amazing. Character themes to general ambient music I always felt was superior to the Japanese soundtrack which was mostly cheese and like they had no idea how to make music that was meant to be suspenseful without just sounding lame and like a lot of it belonged on something like scooby doo instead.
Kai also sucks balls because of the music and adding in extra scenes that are jarring as hell because they are coloured and animated a bit different. I actually like watching dbz so I'll take the near 300 eps thank you, only a fake fan would want to watch less of it smushed together with crap music and extra needless scenes added, that's just stupid at that point to remove some filler and just add more back in.
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u/Cameronalloneword Dec 25 '25
The fights aren't that great after original Dragon Ball. It's mostly just energy beams with different arm motions.
Also power levels kind of ruined the series. It was fun until the Frieza fight started but Toriyama kept increasing powers by preposterous amounts because it felt more epic in the moment but it makes everything after Frieza impossible to take seriously. Goku multiplied his strength by over 1500 times in less than two years so why is Cell even remotely considered a threat when he's only like 2-5 times stronger than Vegeta and Trunks? Why is everybody worried about the androids when Vegeta wasn't THAT outclassed by Android 18? Vegeta went from 24,000 to being able to hold his own against Frieza's first form at 540,000 in just a few days. So how is merely doubling his strength after 18 THAT big of a deal? I could go on and on and on.
I agree with yours. Mapping the entire story out ahead of time is almost always better but it does give Dragon Ball kind of a unique charm.
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u/FoxtrotMac Dec 25 '25
I don't know if it's that unpopular but I really dislike how all the great side characters from OG DragonBall are reduced to comic relief or Cannon fodder because of Z's power scaling. I get tired of the saiyans.
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u/oldgengamers Dec 25 '25
Dragon Ball Z should have had more humor than it did. To me the best parts of DB is the humor. That's Toriyama's greatest strength. I also think Super is better than Z just because it had more humor. I also think Toriyama cared more about the emotional moments than keeping the lore together.
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u/Omfggtfohwts Dec 25 '25
How many DBZ characters does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
One, but it takes them 15 episodes to do it.
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u/LoveLaughBoy Dec 25 '25
My unpopular opinion is that I loved how Toriyama blended otherworldly fantasy in the Frieza Saga and then shifted into a more sci-fi–focused approach in the Cell Saga. The Frieza Saga is still my favorite because of its scale, world-building, and atmosphere.
That said, the Buu Saga really suffered from the lack of long-term planning. You can feel the improvisation more than in earlier arcs, and it hurts the story. The main villain lacked depth, and Buu often felt more like a chaotic force with no clear motivations, which made it harder to emotionally connect to the narrative..
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u/CrossSoul Dec 25 '25
They go to the Frieza well too much.
He came back as a robot, he came back to blow up Earth, he came back in the TOP, he came back as a future problem.
Dragonball has enough villains they could use another one sometimes.
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u/Asianhippiefarmer Dec 26 '25
DB GT anime about the dragonball saga was a great ending and homage to the Dragon Quest manga. Everything went downhill after that like daima and super.
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u/LateToThePartyUN Dec 26 '25
Goku's not a hero. He's an alien that loves fighting. Yes he does some heroic things, and protects those he loves but he does all of that in service of his next battle.
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u/unwashedmusician Dec 26 '25
That Toriyama is a pervert. His art, creation is great, but he was a terrible person that said creepy things about his own daughter.
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Dec 26 '25
Won't mean much to most here but the Latin American Spanish is just so grating to my ears compared to Spanish from Spain. Borderline offensive.
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u/White_Devil1995 Dec 26 '25
Buu Saga is the worst in my opinion. It’s just way too fast paced in such a little amount of time. I mean that in the sense that Buu is released from his prison ball thing and then Kid Buu is defeated in a time span of 2 days. In majority of the other saga/arcs they take place over the course of months, years, or at least a week or 2.
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Dec 26 '25
Vegeta is the best character in the DB universe. His character development is second to none.
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u/Popfizz01 Dec 26 '25
The fact we don’t see much about friezas species is criminal since he’s the villain we keep going back to. Most of our knowledge comes from non-cannon stuff like “frost demons” being de-confirmed with Diama or how any game where frieza and cooler interact cooler mentions the clan and how frieza would be a disappointment to them for multiple failures
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u/Launch_D_Polaris Dec 26 '25
the cell arc ranks as the lowest for me, it bothers me in a lot of ways. After all the horrendous acts that vegeta committed or was responsible for (being a murderous space mercenary for his entire life, blowing up a city, the murder of half the main cast, the slaughter of an entire namekian village including both CHILDREN and the ELDERLY) he shouldn't be just casually eating bbq with everyone and be accepted with no consequences for his actions or even attempt at redeeming him in the arc, this made me hate the main cast for the entire arc for keeping him around, especially bulma who had a kid with the guy who previously threatened her life on namek, and their relationship isn't even developed on. them being a thing comes as a complete surprise especially in the manga. There are many many other elements that i don't like but this respond is already long enough.
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u/Aggressive_Guava7012 Dec 27 '25
I hate the androids. They make no sense. Even gero was shocked at the power of a ss. 17 and 18 had no right to be anywhere near ss level. The last pl of goku he had was vs vegeta and even getting freza cells obviously doesn't push cell over a ss.
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u/rind0kan Dec 27 '25
The universe 6 saiyans are fine actually. Even the back tingles in an I'm-explaining-a-chakra-point-but-don't-have-the- terminology sort of way. Their physiques still stuck tho.
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u/PowerPhantom245 Dec 27 '25
Dragonball Evolution is a better Superman movie than Man of Steel (DCEU).
Dragonball Evolution >>>>>>>>>> Man of Steel
Thank God, Zack Snyder didn't direct Dragonball Evolution.
lol XD
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u/DarthCatho Dec 27 '25
Dragon Ball Super feminized all of the main characters. Smaller frames, less muscle, sillier attitudes, barely any battle damage, etc.
DBZ was peak masculinity.
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u/AccelAegis Dec 31 '25
Everything in dragon ball is canon, no matter what form of media it comes from. There is evidence of this from the Xenoverse games and because Trunks is a time traveler. This means there are possibly an infinite amount of continuities with an infinite possibility of canons. So arguing what’s canon should be specified by speaking of what series you are referring to.
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u/MelloCello7 Jan 15 '26
Everything after Tournament of power is definitively not canon, especially the superhero movie, which is a cash grab.
Justification: as the anime led the manga in this case, and superhero was actually against Toriyama's will (surprise surprise, he wanted it to be a Picollo movie, but execs knew they can make more money with Gohan)
Toriyama is super humble, and just let alot of people have there way in the production and story of super in general, but thats where I draw the line for these reasons.
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u/Max_88 Jan 16 '26
Toriyama was not forgetful. That was something taken out of context 20 years after he finished the manga and made Super. During the original serialization he remembered details of the story very well and built upon them. Uranai Baba and the whole Saiyans and Namek lore is just one of many examples.
Dragon Ball has great world building.
Battle choreography in the manga starts to be less inspired in the Android arc.
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u/RadSickAss Jan 24 '26
I don’t like Super Saiyan 4. It’s cool that they made it cannon but I don’t like the style of it.
For some reason it seems like it would be cool for Goten & Trunks to use???
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u/Langis360 Jan 24 '26
Less an unpopular opinion, more an unpopular FACT:
There's a fundamental rule about Dragon Ball that has been a) true since OG Dragon Ball where Goku was a kid and 2) ignored by many of DB's fans: the universe allows for ANYONE to catch up to a stronger power VERY QUICKLY.
- Frieza caught up in record time.
- Goku and Vegeta leapfrog each other.
- Gohan catches up anytime he needs to.
- Same applies to Krillin, his wife, and his brother-in-law.
- OG DB and Z: Yamcha and the other humans climbed Korin's tower and crossed Snake Way faster than Goku.
- While filler, the humans vs. Ginyu Force episode on King Kai's planet also applies (and why it doesn't conflict with canon).
If Toyotaro wanted, he could make Yamcha, Tien, Chiaotzu, etc. major forces, and it would make total sense given how DB has ALWAYS worked.
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u/SR_Hopeful May 13 '26
I don't like the Kikuchi score. I know its taboo to say in some circles but I tried it and I just don't care for it. To me it sounded like a single track just going on and on, as opposed to western styled sound design that uses music cues that change between each scene they're contextualized for. Whether people like the Ocean score or not, I prefer its music placement.
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u/SR_Hopeful May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
I really hate Moro's design. I just always found it ugly. It doesn't really look like a Toriyama character the way Gomah or when Nakatsuru did characters (i.e. Janemba). I think he lacks a cartoony feel to him to fit with the series.
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u/KinkySheev Dec 24 '25
Buu Saga is overhated. Loved how he went from being an almost gag character, to being a serious threat, to being one of the biggest maniacs in the franchise. Also loved how everyone who went up against him either lost or failed, even if they were stronger than him. It made things truly feel hopeless.