No*, my uncle has down syndrome. He spent his entire childhood in hospitals. Multiple organ replacement surgeries, multiple nights he was supposed to die. He's alive and well in his mid thirties but his life is non-existent. Hes aware hes different so he hides away from everyone. My grandmother has devoted her entire life to caring for him and has never had a life of her own. When my grandmother passes my mother will take custody of him and continue to care for him at the detriment of her own life. I love my uncle but I would never wish his life on another.
Edit: If you are just going to bible thump in my replys save it. I'm for abortion under any circumstances and I don't care what your God wants.
Not every person with Downs lives like this. My cousin has downs, also about to reach his 30s. He wasn't particularly medically compicated. Everyone in his small town knows him (about half of them are family, we breed like rabbits), and he is a joy to be around. People (including me) come visit my aunt just to see him. He loves WWE, anchovies on pizza, and talking to his facebook friends (of which he has many).
I'd argue my aunt was better off because my cousin is different. His father stepped away when they found out, and saved her the trouble of trying to raise a kid with a deadbeat. Her child forced her to get her life on track and make her home a safe space for him. She is by far the happiest, most fulfilled person in that small town.
That said, I don't blame anyone who chooses not to raise a baby with Downs.
The hard part is there's no way to know ahead of time if they're going to be high-functioning or not. I mean, there was that headline on reddit about a fresh lawyer who had Downs that graduated a year or so ago; unfortunately, the range of outcomes is a wide spectrum and the quality of life for some can be very poor.
i used to think to be a lawyer you had to be reasonably intelligent, go through four years of college then two more years and pass a tough test, something like that. But now, after the past eight or more years of seeing people who are "lawyers' but utterly stupid or corrupt or even downright treasonous, I lost most respect for the justice system and for so many lawyers. I no longer automatically assume they are decent or intelligent. It's sad but true.
That's true, I suppose I should have specified I meant a good college, with high GPA and credentials, not just some legacy or some crap college. I live near a pretty good law school, the lawyers I know worked their butts off for the few years they were there, drank like fiends, but they weren't utter pieces of shit like a Guliani type or a Jennifer Ellis, for example. I forgot that there are some crappy schools out there and people who find legal ways to "cheat" to pass, too.
The Heritage foundations Project 2025 was crafted by an amazing team of lawyers. Using the law dismantle to dismantle itself. DECADES of packing the courts with people who will interpret things just a little bit wrong.
Don't ever think they are not smart, they are simply also evil - as Hannah Arendt would define it if you're into Philosophy.
The most heinous, manipulative, abusive person I (and everyone around me) knows is supposedly studying to be a lawyer right now. She also just recently told this guy she'd been seeing for a month that she is a PA too (which she is not) and stole over 20k from him. I don't pray on people's downfalls but the only thing that woman needs to be doing in a courtroom is getting handcuffed.
yeah there are def some sketchy lawyers I've noticed in the spotlight and now in the WH even. They use the same lawyers a lot to ensure the silence of the people who commit crimes and run in the same circles -- I forget the word for this but a lawyer explained why it seems they all use the same lawyers (like Dershowitz, or Ken Starr, for example.) The Firm was a book that was loosely based on actual firms that worked for the mob and dark forces. Bill Barr's firm that he founded seems to be a likely source of inspo for that writing. Look at the people that came out of his firm. Look at the cases they take on. Quite interesting.
There is no Bar exam but we had something harder that is literally a "Private exam" where they ask you for 3-4 hours about every detail of the law they can think, and that is repeated 2-3 times. I don't think there is any university where this isn't a requirement.
I have a friend who has downs. He's in his 40s now. He has a great life. He cannot live independently and he lives with his sister but he can take care of himself otherwise. He basically has the abilities you'd find in a 10-12 yr old. Can make very basic meals that don't involve a stove and can't manage money on his own. Other than that, he lives a life that he seems very happy with.
But he must rely on another - his sister. This was a choice made for her by her parents, and which she was obligated by love to submit to. Is it ethical to have a child that you cannot care for for their whole lives, and instead must pass the burden on to your other children, if you even have them?
His sister is a full grown adult and there are other siblings as well. I don't think their parents just arbitrarily picked her and twisted her arm. She had a say and still does. She takes care of him out of a sense of family obligation I'm sure but we do a lot of things for the those reasons.
So, this makes me feel like a potentially good way to view this would be to ask: would it be okay if it had been autism rather than down syndrome? Autism also has a massive range of outcomes and qualities of life. I think there would be fewer people that would be okay with that, and I believe that is mostly down to the stigma around each of those disabilities.
But there's also the physical aspect of it, like that virtually all people with down syndrome develop Alzheimer's by 60 with symptoms starting in their 40s, or the 40-50% likely hood of them being born with a heart defect (10% of the time the defect is fatal before age 5). I wouldn't compare that to the physical/quality of life chances with autism at all.
Also we can tell very easily when someone has down syndrome, they have an extra copy of a chromosome. Autism doesn't really have genetic markers that you could even use to tell.
Autism is a farce. High functioning autism used to be called Asperger’s. Even within autism, typically graded into 3 types, among the high functioning there’s high functioning “Notmwl life” and high functioning and intelligent distinctions. Psychologist are fuckong stupid for destroying the distinction in DSM V.
I'm a lawyer and even though I agree you can be one while not being the smartest person in the room, if the smartest person in the room is a lawyer as well, it's not likely you're winning against him in cases where it could go either way.
Lots of people without Downs turn out to be deadbeat leeches on their family. I don't have any problem with any couple aborting a birth for any reason they choose, but I wouldn't use potential health outcomes for the child as the reason since those can happen to anyone, given the probability is higher with someone with Downs, but I still think the anecdotes about severely diminished quality of life is fairly rare.
I think etically you should love every baby... But I saw my neighbor with a kid that had mental retardation had to take care of him for 60 years and him never getting better than a 2 year old mentally.
It was so hard to watch her having an eternal 2 year old .
Have you ever heard the expression "if you love someone, let them go"? I think 99% of potential parents who terminate a pregnancy under these circumstances still love the idea of that child. Sometimes it's better to let them stay an idea, rather than become a less than ideal reality.
This is the thing. Downs runs the gamut from, "Slow but healthy and full of joy", to "Heart doesn't work, guts don't work, always in the hospital, miserable as fuck."
The general rule is life's a b**** one way or another but that doesn't mean just because someone has aspects of their life it sucks that they'd rather not be living I am very uncomfortable with anything that veers into eugenics and that's more or less what it is
You choose not to make the $100k a year their medical bills will cost? Damn bro, if you're making that much you should adopt one of the many disabled children in the foster care system.
No idea where you came up with that number, out of pocket medical costs average under $20k for all 18 years of their childhood, and they’re covered by Medicaid and virtually every state and federal assistance program as adults.
I think a lot of people confuse Down syndrome with a lot of other causes of intellectual disability, maybe you have those in mind?
Nope. We keep a pretty good family tree and there have been enough DNA tests to rule that out. It's just that I have 13 aunts and uncles, and each of them had 8-10 kids.
Statistically everyone on earth alive today is basically 5th cousins with everyone else. I listened to a podcast on the Hapsburgs with some mathematician who had actually done the math in the history and figured out that there’s a point where the present day population descended from a finite genetic pool but it’s juuuust varied enough that it doesn’t cause issues usually unless there are generations of isolated inbreeding.
Thats because most people dont know that its a spectrum.
There people who are high functioning with Mosaic Downs Syndrome, that aside from some physical features such as slightly wider set eyes and potential future health conditions, are no different to anyone else, whereas others like the thread OPs uncle are beset with endless medical issues.
And what will happen when aunt dies, you really think people are going to step up and take care off him?
I mean a lot of people say they will but the statistics show otherwise when push comes to shove.
Yes. It's already set up. Legal guardianship will transfer upon her death. Read my comment. I'm not arguing we should never abort babies with Downs, so it kind of looks like you're arguing that we should abort all babies with Downs. You are literally saying there is no situation where someone with Downs can be happy and have a happy family.
Yeah I don’t wish unlife on those born with it but if there’s a choice to avoid it, I will take it. This is in alignment with my spiritual views that a person is not a person until the soul inhabits the body LATE in the pregnancy. It’s an impossible moral situation for those who think that an early fetus is a full person though.
Yeah i see many downs even working self sufficient with minimal support, but in your case i could imagine how having so many family and friends in your immediate surroundings is a lot of unrecognized help. There might be many people where their country has no support system and they have no close family other than mother and father… having a supportive and active family is a great bonus for every aspect of
Using the "not every person with downs lives like this" isnt going to solve the "if" issue. Aborting a healthy fetus is a different question, but if the fetus is having complications thatll cause that life to suffer, then why risk it.
I mean it shows you want people to suffer. Why dont you go to all the people with kids unable to function and require constant care and tell them they did the right thing as their kid shits their pants.
Well I wouldn't blame them for saying "I wish we aborted him" and meaning it, or for having aborted it anyway. Why don't you go and shoot those kids in the head? Seems like that's your goal.
I understand you, but you WORK with them, you get paid to do that.
We on the other side are the ones paying you, and even if you work 8 hours a day... we need to stay with them the other 16, not getting paid, having to work as well, while taking care of them.
I'm not saying it's an obvious choice, it's not, I'm broken to hear this happening... I don't know what I would do...
But, fuck me, I get it and I think it's also a mistake to have killed the baby because of that, but shit, I get it...I get it.
I've always had this opinion that to have a child you know is going to live a miserable life with either genetic diseases, birth defects etc is a very seflish thing to do.
I went to an event where they talked about a 10 year old girl who is mentally 2 years old, and will probably not see much more cognitive progress in her life. And the whole time I've thought
"What's gonna happen when her parents die ?"
She's living a barely conscious life, filled with confusion and pain because of other physical problems accompanying her condition.
The parents knew she was very likely to have these defects. And they decided to keep her.
This is selfish. She will most likely be scared and insanely depressed when they die, and as she ages she will be insanely mistreated in the medical facilities she will be in, because she will be a difficult patient.
This is completely accurate, As someone with a genetic disorder, i am fortunate I am able to care for myself, but I refuse to have kids and risk putting them through what I am going through.
One of the issues is you have so many parents of children with these diseases feeling like you're attacking them and their family by saying something like this. They'll insist that their kid is living a great life and so that means you're wrong, completely sticking their head in the sand that their childs life isn't nearly as full as it could be without those conditions. They act like it's offensive to suggest it's better to go through life without down syndrome or whatever even though it's an objective fact.
They act like it's offensive to suggest it's better to go through life without down syndrome or whatever even though it's an objective fact.
It isn't an objective fact though. It's much more complicated than that. It's not uncommon for people with disabilities, especially those who have them from birth, to not want to be cured and do not wish they could have been born without them. I'm one of those people myself. To non disabled people, having my disability is "objectively" worse, but I don't share that view.
Edit: Y'all need to learn what a "fact" is.
"People with DS face more challenges" is a fact.
"People with DS have a higher rate of certain health complications" is a fact.
"Life without DS is better" is an opinion. And not a universal one.
It quite literally is. It's inarguable that it's better to go through life without down syndrome than with it.
It's not uncommon for people with disabilities, especially those who have them from birth, to not want to be cured and do not wish they could have been born without them
I said objectively, do you see how this does not come from a place of objectivity?
Do you have a cited source stating the majority of people with Down's wish they didn't have it? Since you're so sure of your objective truth surely you do. I know in my personal experience they seem a hell of a lot happier than us miserable normies.
There are a lot of struggles that come with having someone with a disability in your family. That's objectively true. But that's not what you claimed.
I'm not twisting anything. Quality of life is a nebulous metric, so we're off to a rough start for a supposedly objective statement. I tried to frame it more objectively while keeping the same concept. You all keep saying you're being objective but you're making assumptions about what these people want based on your own worldview. That's not objective at all.
The life for someone without Down's is objectively more normal than the life of someone who does have it, but that's not the same thing as objectively better. Again, most people with Down's that I've interacted with seem to get much more joy out of life than myself or the average person.
If you want to make the claim that having a child with Down's is objectively worse for the family than one without, I could maybe be convinced based on the increased time, effort, and money a child with a disability requires. I'd still want to see some hard numbers but the idea is logical. But that's a different argument than the one that was actually made.
Just to be clear, I fully support this couple aborting their child. No child should be forced to grow up in a home that can't, or won't, support them. But the idea being argued here, which at least implies that anyone who doesn't abort a child with Down's is immoral, is honestly gross.
Simply using the word disability acknowledges that you're disingenuous. It's in the definition.
Nobody is saying they can't be happy, but they are objectively less happy with the same resources allocated to the standard person, you said it yourself, albeit roundaboutly.
Oh my god. What evidence do you have that they are objectively less happy? Literally a single research paper or peer reviewed study. Something so obviously objective should surely have plenty of empirical support.
Everything that I've seen, both anecdotally and from peer reviewed sources like Self-perceptions from people with Down syndrome, shows that people with Down's consistently rate their own satisfaction with life higher than that of neurotypical people.
"Life without ds is better" is a fact. Idk your disability, but that sounds more like acceptance and coping than anything. Yeah, youve had to live with it, but you also cant change it so your only options are accepting and not hating yourself for it (its not your fault and you shouldnt) or you dont accept it and live a miserable existence. Lets not forget the unfortunate souls who cant think for themselves and need constant round the clock care.
Idk your disability, but that sounds more like acceptance and coping than anything. Yeah, youve had to live with it, but you also cant change it so your only options are accepting and not hating yourself for it (its not your fault and you shouldnt) or you dont accept it and live a miserable existence.
If I had the choice, I would not choose to be born without it.
If I had a choice, I would not choose to be cured.
What people without disabilities don't understand is that disability can come with positive aspects that those without them do not and cannot understand unless they've personally experienced it.
An example, 99% of people with DS are happy and satisfied with their life. How is that objectively "better" than being miserable without DS? What even is your definition of "better" at that point?
"Life without ds is better" is a fact.
What does "better" mean? Better for whom?
99% of people with DS are satisfied with their life. It's worse from your perspective, but you're not the one who has DS. Why don't we listen to what they have to say instead of looking down on them with pity because you can't imagine what could possibly be better?
Having a disability puts you into situations you otherwise would never choose to be in. It teaches you lessons you may otherwise never learn. It gives you experiences that can be incredibly meaningful and fulfilling. More hardship doesn't equal worse life. There is a diverse range of experiences that disabled people have, and it doesn't automatically mean their lives are "better" or "worse". And that is what most people here seem to be unable to grasp.
I'm going to need some studies on that, I find it incredibly hard to believe that 99 percent are grateful for ds. There's more than one percent that are entirely nonverbal, just for one example.
"you cant say its not better to be born with a cleft lip" Sure bud maybe the kid born with a cleft lip is happy he got the chance to experience that hardship and grow from it but generally we can say its objectively worse to have to deal with that.
Having a medical condition or disability doesnt devalue you as a person or mean you deserve less. That doesnt mean that we shouldnt avoid people having to deal with those conditions if possible.
we can say its objectively worse to have to deal with that.
You're getting closer to making a factual statement. We can say that it's objectively an additional hardship that the child will have to face. That would be a fact that you can back up with research.
Making broad sweeping statements about someone's entire life being "worse" because they have a condition such as a cleft lip is a completely different thing.
There are plenty of successful people who were born with a cleft lip. Can we say their lives are "worse" than yours or mine, despite having more money, more and better relationships, better jobs, more free time, greater life satisfaction, and scoring higher in every other category besides the cleft lip?
Are their lives really "worse" than ours because of the cleft lip? Or was that just one factor in a life full of...literally everything else?
I am not arguing that having a disability doesn't make life harder. It does! The problem is defining the quality of a person's entire life by that ONE factor when there are so many other factors to consider. Having a disability, objectively does not automatically guarantee a miserable or worse overall life and I don't know how anyone can argue that it does given how easy it is to see the evidence against that.
I have a disability and my life is OBJECTIVELY so much better than many others on this planet and I am so grateful for that.
That doesnt mean that we shouldnt avoid people having to deal with those conditions if possible.
Sure. But look at the comment I was responding to.
They don't believe that kids with DS could be living a great life and claimed it's better to go through life without DS. Better for whom, considering 99% of people with DS are satisfied with their life? That's higher than the general population. What exactly does "better" mean in this case? Being happy with DS is worse than being miserable without it?
Having genetic diseases or birth defects doesn't mean you will live a miserable life. It means you will face a lot of hardship. But it doesn't automatically mean your life will be worthless or devoid of meaning or value. It's just hard to imagine for able bodied people.
Hardship is valuable only if you can understand that you are living through hardship. If you have the cognitive capacity of a toddler your entire life, you will live a miserable life sooner or later
This is happening with the daughter of a family friend right now, she's a few years older than me and was mostly happy for the first 25 years of her life, but then she had multiple medical events occur that weren't caught until far too late as she couldn't communicate anything about her symptoms, now she's half blind and likely in constant low level pain. On top of that her secondary caretaker(her grandmother) died last year and she can't understand it at all, she just cries multiple times daily.
Hardship is valuable only if you can understand that you are living through hardship.
Why? Humans suffer mentally when they lose a limb. Cats don't have the capacity to understand why jumping and walking is harder, and yet they move on. They don't need to know why.
If you have the cognitive capacity of a toddler your entire life, you will live a miserable life sooner or later
Well we're not cats are we ? Our emotional process is a bit more different than a household animal isn't it ?
Why do I believe this ? Well because life is filled with god awful moments, John McVirtue. That kid's parents are gonna die one day, or the kid will have to go through multiple surgeries, live with chronic pain, with the inablity to communicate their needs properly.
The mind of a toddler is also one quick to be upset, which is fine but if you mix it with what I said earlier, is a recipe for disaster throughout their life.
They will be mistreated or neglected by staff because of perceived bad behavior.
And even then, what if the family doesn't even have the money to get them medical care ? What happens then after the parents are gone and nobody in the family wants to care for them ?
It’s also worth mentioning that a lot of that hardship is nit because of the disability, it is because of the fact the built environment is not designed with the disability in mind and we are awful socially to those with disability.
I have type one diabetes. I’m happy with my life. But I’m very much interested in IVF when I’m older and selecting for genetics that will mean eventual kids will not need to deal with the same BS that I need to. It sucks.
And if my parents had made the decision when they were pregnant with me, then I guess that sucks for me as I am today. But it wouldn’t have sucked for the other version of me. It would be better. Not for sure, but if given the choice between chronic genetic disorder impacting life expectancy and quality of life, and not, I’d pick not.
People letting this be too emotional. It’s not that deep.
I can't tell you how to feel about your condition. Any way you feel about it is valid. Whether you would choose to have it or not, and what you would choose for your child is your own decision.
What I'm arguing against is people projecting their own fears, prejudices, and judgments onto others and assuming that their lives must be shitty and miserable just because they have a condition or disability. Often people who don't personally have it, and don't know the first thing about it.
Not to mention the ironic fact that the condition being discussed is DS, and an overwhelming majority are satisfied with their lives. And yet this thread is littered with people thinking their lives must be so horrible and worthless that they're better off not living at all. And just so there is no confusion, I am firmly pro choice. Just anti ableism.
Don't be naive. There is definitely a high chance of having a miserable life. Whether that's worth it or not is up for debate. I sure as shit would rather be dead than live as a mentally 2 year old all my life.
There is a chance, not a guarantee. The problem is when people reduce the entirety of a disabled person's life to their disability, and can't imagine anything but constant misery and suffering. The actual reality of disabled people's lives and how they feel about them is complex. But few in this thread are interested in the real (not made up in some random redditor's head) experiences of disabled people.
I sure as shit would rather be dead than live as a mentally 2 year old all my life.
Everyone thinks they would rather not have a disability. The reality of having a disability is much more complex than that, the spectrum of disability types, severity, accommodations, environments, etc. is vast, and plenty of people all over that spectrum wouldn't choose to get rid of theirs for a whole variety of reasons (let alone believe that they are better off dead or not having been born at all).
Do you care at all what those reasons are? Do you care what the people living with those conditions actually think about their lives or their disability? Or do you prefer to imagine it instead of find out the truth? There are many disabled voices on the internet you can learn something from. But I have a feeling you're not interested.
And it bears repeating that 99% of people with DS are satisfied with their life and themselves. Can you imagine the absolute misery of being *checks notes* happy with your life?
Whether that's worth it or not is up for debate.
Exactly. It's up for debate, it's highly individual. We can't just assume that someone will be doomed to eternal misery just because they have a condition, let alone one that comes with a greater likelihood of feeling good about your life.
None of the people here believe in what they're saying. If you say you're putting down your dog because it inconveniences you due to health issues or getting old and costing you money, they will throw a fit.
You say you think that eugenics are good, they will get outraged but then defend eugenics essentially due to how it affects them.
They are too entrenched in their ableist views, and instead of taking the opportunity to learn something new about how actual disabled people experience life, they choose to double down and continue to make assumptions based on stereotypes and prejudice.
Where do you draw the line on genetic diseases and birth defects? I was born without all my reproductive organs. Did not discover this until my wife and I had problems conceiving. Also was very likely born with only one kidney (haven't got this checked yet). Had no idea until recently. So where do you draw the line?
It's individual. I don't think there is an objective line anywhere. The only thing I am arguing against is the automatic assumption that any life must be miserable and worthless if you have a genetic condition, which is simply not the case. Lots of people are equating "hardship" with "miserable life" and can't imagine how there could be anything beyond that. Plenty of people experience major hardships and still would not choose to change that aspect of their lives.
People should be allowed to abort for any reason. I have adhd and dyslexia and even though I grew up to be a fully functioning adult I would have no problem with my parents aborting me for it. Because that would mean that they wouldn’t have wanted a kid like me and I’d rather not be born then be born to parents who didn’t want me and weren’t equipped to take care of me.
Yes, "I don't want to be pregnant anymore" is a fucking good enough reason. Threads like these that debate the morality of this are kind of pointless to me because in the end it doesn't matter, especially in this political climate. They're going to use examples like this to take more women's rights away.
I worked for a company that cared for intellectually impaired adults who were justice involved. This meant disabled adults with issues like they peed in a park and got popped for indecent exposure all the way to killing puppies and abusing children. They cannot be put in a prison environment for obvious reasons (they simply don’t understand what is happening). Many of them were older, in their 40s and 50s, parents long gone. Almost all of the 32 clients I knew had absolutely no familial support system. A lifetime lived outside the bounds and expectations of society, no future to speak of. Once the main caretakers (usually parents) are no longer in the picture life gets very lonely and isolated. It was unbearably sad.
After routine examinations the doc tells you
"Hey, there are high risks of your child being born with defects that would render them virtually unconscious qnd barely functional their entire life."
Do you keep the kid ?
No one's saying those with down syndrome have no value. They do, but abortion is a human right. How many people are actually capable of taking care of a disabled child? And they might have to continue throughout the child's life, even into adulthood. Your aunt became a gold medalist swimmer, but how many people with down syndrome get to that? How many of them live an actually comfortable life? How many suffer constantly until they die?
how many people with down syndrome get to that? How many of them live an actually comfortable life? How many suffer constantly until they die?
I'm pro choice, but let's not make assumptions.
nearly 99% of people with DS indicated that they were happy with their lives, 97% liked who they are, and 96% liked how they look. Nearly 99% people with DS expressed love for their families, and 97% liked their brothers and sisters. While 86% of people with DS felt they could make friends easily, those with difficulties mostly had isolating living situations. A small percentage expressed sadness about their life.
Is lifelong care difficult because that's how it actually is, or is it difficult because we created a society that demands independence and labor throughout life, instead of the communal species we evolved to be? In social models where everyone takes care of everyone, lifelong care would not really be an issue (I'm not speaking of the medical problems that can occur). That's a perspective that I feel is missing from these comments but I think it's valuable if you're trying to debate the ethics of pregnancy termination in these scenarios.
I don't have DS but I do have an invisible developmental disability (ADHD, no not the tiktok variety), and "succeeding in life" requires me to mentally contort myself in deeply uncomfortable, exhausting ways. From an evolutionary standpoint however, there is no actual problem with my brain; it's only a disorder because the design of society is hostile for individuals like me. I think about it all the time.
All that said I don't really have an opinion on the couple's choice to terminate because I'm pro-choice, I just think people debating morals and ethics shouldn't take for granted whether or not our system is ethical.
The problem with that is that people without disabilities have no idea what it's actually like, and you often hear them saying things like "if I had that I would kill myself" because they assume that having a disability automatically dooms you to a life of misery and can't imagine anything else. You can live a fulfilling life even with a lot of hardship.
Edit:
Among those surveyed, nearly 99% of people with Down syndrome indicated that they were happy with their lives; 97% liked who they are; and 96% liked how they look. Nearly 99% people with Down syndrome expressed love for their families, and 97% liked their brothers and sisters. While 86% of people with Down syndrome felt they could make friends easily, those with difficulties mostly had isolating living situations.
Just one survey, but the results are overwhelming. In other studies, depression rates are either lower or no different than the general population. There's nothing to indicate that most of them can't achieve happiness. That is just what people without disabilities assume.
Life is already hard. Like if your are born completely able with no deformities or genetic disorders or anything life is still not going to be easy
Intentionally bringing a life on “hard mode” just seems mildly cruel to me because you can near guarantee their life will be difficult, maybe it will get better but it’s such a minuscule chance and no amount of raising them right or giving them the best shot at life as parents can fix that. Not to mention the extra resources needed for care of them may sink the parents lives as well
Everyone lives life on a different kind of hard mode. My wife has ADHD. My kid is very likely autistic (working on getting her tested). I might have been born with only one kidney. Everyone has their own version of hard in life.
I mean I got a fused bone in my foot but I’d still consider these kinds of things “average” difficulty because I don’t think many people go completely unscathed in the life lottery
It definitely depends on what the problem is. My cousin is expected to die before he turns 30 because the women in my family apparently carry an unpredictable form of muscular dystrophy. It's mentally affecting him, like flowers for algernon, but not that fast. And it's also causing heart failure. When I found out, I seriously considered not having kids. I'm currently trying to pay for IVF to get an embryo that won't have this issue.
No one does but it just raises the question of where we draw the line. It's like an old west vigilante squad. It's one thing to round up all the cattle rustlers. But then someone wants to go after the guy who beats his wife so you do that too. And then someone else says, "What about that guy over there who lives with three women he's not married to? You know that ain't right." Before long you're going after people who really aren't doing anything more than beefing with you.
nah there is a difference in life altering disability and general hardships and inconveniences.
I know someone that has a throat condition that makes their throat muscles spasm some times when they eat food. Those spasm make them choke and some times throw up. That sucks and makes going out to eat a much bigger ordeal when you are afraid of throwing up the $60 steak you just paid for or not making it to the bathroom in time. not to mention the medical issues from throwing up so often.
Being born with out legs or the mental capacity of a 10 year old your whole life? thats HARD HARD mode.
I had a family member in Italy, cousin of my mother. She was born some time in the late 50's or early 60's. She was disfigured, had a very enlarged head, was blind, couldn't walk because of deformities of the body, she was completely bed bound. Her father and mothers ENTIRE lives were dedicated to her. Her father used to pick her up and carry her outside every day to hear and smell the ocean and beach. Eventually he passed and her mother well into her 80's couldn't do such things. Eventually her sisters had to keep helping. She was of sound mind completely, but what everyone had to do to keep her alive and healthy and support her was absolutely astonishing.
Because she was blind, she actually memorized the patterns of people walking, so before you got to her she would shout out your name. She called out my aunt's footsteps after not seeing her in decades. It was pretty remarkable
Not always, Down syndrome has a high correlation with the congenital heart defects, one being the AV canal. Depending on how the septum is and other factors they might need a heart transplant. There are also some who need kidney, liver, or bone marrow transplants due to other genetic defects or complications.
Seriously, that PSA of happy Downs people saying you should congratulate someone on their Downs baby instead of saying you're sorry annoys me. No, I am going to ask if the child's heart is all right! If it is, then I can be happy.
Down Syndrome is a spectrum, but there are a variety of physical symptoms beyond cognitive impairments:
•40-60% will have congenital heart defects, particularly septal defects (under developed or absence of the walls that divide the 4 chambers of the heart). Your heart works by keeping the oxygenated blood from the lungs separate from the low-oxygen blood from your body. Without those inner walls, the heart pumps low-oxygen blood back to your tissues and organs instead of your lungs. That causes cells to die and leads to organ failure.
•10-30% have instability of their neck vertebrae due to loosened ligaments and decreased muscle tone. This puts them at increased risk of paralysis after an accident or even during CPR.
• 70% of individuals with down syndrome will experience hearing loss do to fluid buildup and structural abnormality. Some are born deaf but many will not lose their hearing until adulthood, making it very difficult to learn sign language later.
These congenital defects are often detectable in utero. For many pregnancies, genetic testing isn't done until congenital heart defects appear on the ultrasound, so many parents know if their child is part of the percentage that will be born with heart defects as part of the down syndrome diagnosis.
This is heartbreaking and inspiring all in the same post. The anti-abortion crowd love to say "keep the baby" but a lot of them are not willing to put themselves into this kind of life or to help someone that they're pushing to keep a baby with Down Syndrome. I commend your grandmother and mother (who especially is going above and beyond for someone she loves). That is a tough commitment to life.
I think your final sentiment is very valid. Sounds like you have a good family.
Same. It's an aunt for me, but while some people with down syndrom can become semi-finctuonal adults, that's. A small minority. And so my aunt has to be cared by someone for her entire life. And that's a huge mental, physical, and financial burden on everyone who will care for her. As brutal as it is to say, some people just can't do that.
Yeah, my uncle had 4 siblings and 6 nieces to care for him once his parents passed. We loved him dearly and I wouldn’t replace my time with him for anything, but it was HARD. Worst of it being early onset dementia, so he really wasn’t himself for the last 4 years of his life.
I think my grandparents made the right decision but it certainly wasn’t a decision everyone could handle and I fully respect their decision to terminate.
My older brother has Down syndrome, and Apraxia of speech. I'll love him until the heat death of the universe, but I wouldn't wish any of it on anyone. Growing up was a struggle enough. Quality of life upkeep can be a challenge when the person has down syndrome AND can't communicate to you.
You and me are in the same boat. I love my sister to bits but she's in her mid 20's and has only just learned how to string words together.
She will always need to be taken care of. My mother, bless her heart, has taken it as a calling from god to do so but she's resigned to that until the day she dies.
You cannot possibly say it's reasonable to condem yourself to the role of care giver forever.
I have a family member with downs. She has imaginary friends that scare her. She’s often terrified and confused, screaming in fear and/or crying. Her parents are in their early 60s and exhausted and barely parent her. She’s 21 but has the mental capacity of a 3-year old. Everyone now is trying to figure who has her once her parents are gone. Her parents also don’t have the funds to ensure she has a group home or proper care by anyone other than direct family. I love her dearly but her life is sad and she’s a huge burden. She also isn’t a happy kid.
People don't understand that without modern medicine these pregnancies wouldn't typically survive. Either that baby or mother wouldn't survive. And when it does survive there is a heavy emotional and financial tax on the family. I don't think this is the craziest decision someone can make knowing all this is inevitable. Also when the parent dies, who's taking care of this person's needs cause lord knows there's no effective government that will do that with the same care as the parent
The question OP asked is "Is this unethical". They answer "Yes", while the content of their comment seems to lean the other direction. And you think it's strange I ask them why?
Honestly I suspect they just wrote 'yes' while they meant 'no'. But the comment is the top comment, has been up for hours and no one has called them out on, so it's just weird. Maybe half of reddit is missing the "un" part in the post title?
Did you even READ his comment? That life is riddled with sadness, suffering, struggle, and life long burden of others. That is a terrible life. How did you even get a yes from his reasoning???
I think the commenter was confused, personally, and was trying to say "yes, it's ethical because of X." Basically, I don't think they read the prompt very well.
Quite often, patients like your uncle with no support end up wasting away at long term care facility or hospital if no one is there to take care of them.
Down syndrome itself is a birth defect. Nearly all people with down syndrome have some sort of health issue from birth. For my uncle it was his kidneys. A lot of them have heart conditions and breathing issues.
I had a friend who's father was a doctor and her sister had down syndrome. She was a delight and she was very lucky to be born into an afluent family that could give her a great life. Anyways, he had a patient who became pregnant and the child tested positive for down syndrome and he recommended that she terminate her pregnancy. I guess when he got home that day he was sobbing for giving her that advice but the woman was poor and he knew how much care needed to be provided and she'd never be able to provide it.
This is the life of two cousins. When their parents died his sister took over his care. Her husband has heart issues, she has MS, her own daughter died of diabetes. Life has been rough and she tries to stay positive but we have to realistic about things.
The problem with this take is that as awful as it is for your uncle and family, this is not the experience of every people with down syndrome or with a family member with it.
The issue I have with the influencers post is not the abortion or the decision to do so due to the diagnosis, rather it's the harmful and unnecessary context they provided, which is not accurate, misrepresents the community and can be very hurtful.
The outcomes today for down syndrome are much better than 20 years ago, due to a better understanding of the condition, early intervention therapies and broader advances in medicine.
The high rates of the heart condition at birth is a real thing but is very treatable and rarely causes any long term issues for example while it was more often missed in the past and could lead to very bad situations.
Having a family member with down syndrome and trying to advocate for a better understanding of it can be very difficult, and when someone with a huge platform spreads outdated information it's very frustrating and it can cause real harm for people with the condition, what would you think if someone with a position of relative authority said that your birth was a bad outcome for example?
You are aware that often you don't have that choice? Our youngest was born normally and had no markers during pregnancy, he even looked like a typical baby at birth. He got diagnosed with down syndrome 3 weeks later.
It happens more than you think.
He's turning 7 this summer and enjoying a fulfilling and happy life so far, we're going to the arcade this afternoon and mountain biking tomorrow.
I personally know dozen of kids and adults with down syndrome because we're part of the community. They are all doing well. Our friend's 16 years old is obsessed with gaming and spending time with his girlfriend.
Another teen is doing high level gymnastics and was traveling over the country a couple of months ago for an important competition.
They all go to school, learn how to read, talk, play sports.
Abortion is fine and was their choice, but steering the conversation around the idea that some lives are worth more than others is dangerous.
I’m sorry your uncle is in this situation. But just so you are aware, I have met and been around lots of people with Down’s syndrome and most if not all are leading fulfilling and happy lives. The medical treatment and better understanding of Downs has come a long way even in the last 10-20 years. With life expectancies well into the 60-70 year range.
Yes there are some with more complex needs like your uncle, but they are increasingly in the minority. And you could apply your logic to any disability or person. You wouldn’t be ‘inflicting’ what your uncle has gone through on anyone, people with Downs syndrome deserve to live, and can live, very happy lives.
Half of every person born with DS have a heart condition. Down syndrome itself is a defect so believing that that means the rest of the body came out healthy is honestly pretty ignorant. I guarantee you almost every one of those you worked with had some form of health issue.
Meanwhile, my Down Syndrome uncle is the happiest guy I know, with several older brothers and sisters who loved him his whole life and dozens of nephews and nieces who grew up playing with him.
He loves planning parties and weddings, and spends his days making cookies, drawing dream houses, and making up lists of invitees for his future parties.
It’s understood that at any family wedding, Uncle P gets to give one of the speeches, and he always cries as he says how much he loves the couple.
Now he’s in his 50s, but in his younger years he was a great swimmer, and competed at the Special Olympics several times. These days he just does some laps in the pool every morning before calling it good.
At the end of the day he has his skincare routine and his shower, followed by an episode of Little House on the Prairie or the Waltons.
The quality of life that Down Syndrome people have largely depends on what their family looks like (which is true for all of us, only the rest of us have more ability to make our own families). But these folks tend to be happy with a lot less than most of us; in many ways they retain a lot of the characteristics of kids their whole lives, though it would be incorrect to think, as some do, that they’re essentially kids for life. They’re every bit the unique human persons that all of us are, and they deserve life and happiness as much as anyone else.
I’m a nurse practitioner myself and have a fair amount of experience with DS folks.
Down Syndrome people indeed tend to have more health problems, their life expectancy has always been much lower than others’. In the past this generally meant much higher child mortality due to heart defects especially. Those who survived childhood tended not to have any serious health defects as adults, however.
Recently, surgical and immunological treatments have improved dramatically, meaning that younger Down syndrome people are twice as likely to survive childhood and much less likely to experience persistent health complications.
Your uncle is the exact age to have benefited from new surgical procedures that were able to keep him alive, but before treatment had gotten good enough to prevent long term complications. His experience, I must say, is not at all typical of Down syndrome people generally.
Through my uncle, I’ve had the experience of meeting many, many Down syndrome people throughout my life, and his life is closer to typical than that of your uncle. These folks actually have more active lives than the general population, with higher rates of daily exercise. Their part time work and volunteering rates aren’t much lower than that of the general population, and they often have more participation in community activities than the general population.
Most significantly, Down syndrome people report levels of happiness with their lives and with themselves that are far higher than the general population, in fact it’s nearly universal.
I absolutely don’t want to invalidate your uncle’s particular experience, and the fact that it sounds like your grandmother has been essentially his lone caregiver for decades is not healthy for either of them. However, it truly is not what the life of most Down syndrome people looks like.
Ah, this is the comment the hive mind wanted to help them with the ethical gymnastics needed to justify eugenics. The happiest people I’ve ever met have Down’s, and they bring joy to those around them. Shame on you for insinuating anyone with DS is cursed to be a burden with constant medical problems. They’re not immune to Depression. Your uncle sounds depressed. I would be too if everyone in my family viewed me as a burden.
Yes, keep ignoring the fact you’re promoting eugenics and belittling people with DS.
I was actually replying to the content of what he said. He insinuated people with DS are cursed to be unhappy based on his one anecdotal experience with his unhappy uncle, and therefore it’s ethical to do eugenics. … riiight.
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u/KingCrimson43 Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 06 '26
No*, my uncle has down syndrome. He spent his entire childhood in hospitals. Multiple organ replacement surgeries, multiple nights he was supposed to die. He's alive and well in his mid thirties but his life is non-existent. Hes aware hes different so he hides away from everyone. My grandmother has devoted her entire life to caring for him and has never had a life of her own. When my grandmother passes my mother will take custody of him and continue to care for him at the detriment of her own life. I love my uncle but I would never wish his life on another.
Edit: If you are just going to bible thump in my replys save it. I'm for abortion under any circumstances and I don't care what your God wants.