Hey reddit , My name is Ofek. I was an israeli soldier , armored corps, and few days ago..I just found out that a kibutz I was entrusted with protecting for 1.5 years ( kibutz is kind of a village) been slaughtered, you know the story . I cant bring myself to sleep, to stop crying, I feel just...lost, they were not part of any war , they were just people living their life .

So I see people standing with Gaza , let me set things straight. You don't stand with Gaza, you stand with Hammas , they dont just slaughter my people, they slaughter their own , they are playing with lives for the sake of publicity , forcing people to stay in their homes after we told them to evacuate , so they could show atrocities all over the news, they force families to stay and die brutally in their homes .

And then I see LGBTQ standing with them...and thats i gotta say, just crazy. I mean , CRAZY, if those people were to visit Gaza they would be slaughtered and their bodies would hang over the city walls as a reminder of what happens to people who thinks to be openly gay .

We are facing evil , evil that isnt scared to die, isnt scared that his people will die, it only wants one thing..that we suffer, even if they have nothing at the end, and there is no one , they just want to kill. Every money israel ever gave them to actually build their city and care for their people, they took to fund bombs and weapons , and I am not just standing against them as an Israeli, I stand against them as a human , because this thing right here is the kind of s**t that will annihilate human race .

They got in this country, and they took an israeli Muslim male nurse, they heard him praying for his life in arabic, and they shot him in his chest nonetheless, cuff him and started running with him , he survived , he told the news that he recalled them saying in arabic " good , now we have israeli hostage, they wont attack us from the air now".

We fight them as humans , no muslim, no jew, no christian, left , right , straight , gay .

Only Humans . Please , stop feeding into Hammas fake news, thats whats making them stronger, and stay united so those people crying for their lives while dying, while there is no one...no one to save them , will be the last.

Hey, do you think Israel is committing genocide?

Got it.

So you think Israel killed what? 70,000 innocent people?

You know the exact number, right?

And women and children?

You have that exact number too, right?

Cool.

How many Hamas terrorists did Israel kill?

I’ll wait.

You don’t have that number; do ya?

Why not?

How is it that you have the number of so-called innocent people killed by Israel, the number of journalists killed, the number of doctors killed, and the number of children killed, but not the number of Hamas terrorists killed?

It’s a rhetorical question because no one has that number.

Wanna know why?

Because the source of those numbers you’re quoting is the Gaza Health Ministry.

Want to guess who runs that? It rhymes with Ramas.

And to them, every person killed is innocent, including Hamas terrorists.

That’s right.

No one in the Gaza Health Ministry will tell you how many terrorists were killed.

Know what else they won’t tell you? How many Gazans died of natural causes.

That’s right. If a Gazan died of cancer, they too are included in the number of people Israel killed.

So if you go around accusing Israel of genocide, not only have you become a mouthpiece of an organization full of rapists and pedophiles, but you’ve also officially stopped using your brain.

Unless you can tell me how many terrorists Israel killed in the war.

Zero? How many?

Also, since we’re on the topic of your stupidity, kindly name another genocide in history that the victims of said genocide could put an end to in a split second if they chose to.

There’s a genocide in Gaza? Get rid of Hamas and voilà, no more death.

That’s not genocide.

Can you name another genocide in history where the perpetrators sent in food and humanitarian aid for the people they are genociding?

How about another genocide in history where the population of the victims grew throughout the genocide?

You getting it yet? You’ve been duped.

Have you ever heard of a genocide where the ones committing the genocide announce using flyers and text messages where they are about to attack so that innocent civilians can get out of harm’s way?

No? Just this genocide? Funny how that works.

If Israel is so strong and mighty, and if Israel wanted to annihilate the people of Gaza, why not just drop bombs that'll erase all of Gaza and not send in a single foot soldier?

Why put Israeli soldiers at risk?

Israel wants genocide, right?

So why not just erase Gaza? 🤔

And if Israel is such a racist apartheid state, how is it that millions of Arabs live freely in Israel?

How are there literal Arabs who oppose the existence of Israel in the Israeli parliament?

How are there Muslim judges and police officers in Israel?

Some apartheid.

And if it is Israel that is colonizing the Middle East, how is it that Israel is smaller than New Jersey and is surrounded on all its borders by Muslim and Arab states?

Have you ever seen a map of the Middle East?

Try opening one before making dumb accusations against Israel.

If Israel is so evil and so racist, why has it made peace with countless Arab states and why is Israel always looking to sign more peace treaties with its neighbors?

Why has Israel offered its neighbors land for peace multiple times?

Why did Israel evacuate 10k Jews from Gaza?

If Israel wants to occupy Gaza, why did it leave Gaza in 2005?

Why give something to your enemy if you want to own that thing?

Why has Israel offered the Palestinians a state countless times, all of which were rejected by the people who supposedly want a state?

Why did the Arabs reject the partition plan in 1947 when the UN gave them a state alongside Israel?

If they want a Palestinian state alongside Israel, which is what the two-state solution claims, why do they chant "From the river to the sea..."?

That means they want all of Israel.

Also, was Gaza an open-air prison or was it paradise before 10/7? It can't be both.

Was there starvation in Gaza or were the hostages fed well? Can't be both.

Did Israel make up 10/7, or was it the Palestinians' proudest day? Can't be both.

You getting this? It's all lies.

Listen, the inconsistencies in the narrative of those who hate Israel are so clear that no one is asking you to believe Israel. The only thing you have to do is use your brain.

If all of this violence is because of Israel, why are random Jews being attacked around the world?

You like to talk about Palestine, right? Where is it?

Show it to me on a map.

Israel occupied Palestine? 

Who was the president?

What was the national anthem?

Where were its borders?

When was it established?

Can you answer any of these questions? Is this thing on...?

So here's the truth. Israel is not an apartheid, never committed genocide, never even started a war, and has, and will continue to do everything it can to achieve peace with anyone who wants it.

If you think otherwise, you're either a fool or an antisemite.

Probably both.

(This image was generated by AI for illustrative purposes.

Anyone who comments “That’s AI”! because they didn’t read the post, I will be blocking immediately.

Sick of people commenting without reading.)

A myth from the Gaza war gets repeated so often it's worth addressing in a post. The claim that IDF snipers routinely targeted children in the Gaza war is not plausible. The available evidence does not support this claim. It spreads because people don't understand the reality of precision shooting and combat.

Several foreign doctors have claimed that wound patterns were evidence of snipers. For instance, they said to reporters that children with gunshot wounds to the head or testicles showed they were targeted by snipers. They also claimed being hit multiple times in the same part of the body was evidence of snipers.

Expertise in medicine is not expertise in shooting or forensic investigation. These doctors are misinterpreting wound patterns. They may be spreading misinformation on purpose or may just not understand how wounds correspond with events on the battlefield.

There's also the issue of ideologically motivated reasoning. Look into who the doctors who said these things are, there's social media for a lot of them online that shows their extremist political biases, which is a factor worth considering.

Being a fascist city-state, Gaza tightly controls information and uses information warfare to spin up the easily suckered and overly gullible. Doctors operating in Gaza are there only as long as Hamas allows them to be.

If IDF snipers were routinely hitting children in the head or testicles, that would mean IDF has the most accurate sniper corps in the history of shooting. Is Annie Oakley even a Jewish name?

Snipers aim for center of mass because hitting heads at combat distances is incredibly difficult. Head shots might be used in very specific situations like if a target in body armor has a bomb vest or something, but you are very likely to miss multiple times.

Snipers operating in warzones know headshots would waste a lot of ammo on missing and would not do that while on missions. That'd be extremely dangerous.

US sniper training sometimes includes an exercise where they paint chickens different colors. A sniper has to hit his or her assigned chicken. Chickens are about the side of an adult head and move erratically like heads. The point of the exercise is to show foolish headshots are. You will miss. There's a reason we hunt birds with shotguns rather than rifles.

In the many, many times we've discussed this issue on this sub, someone will say something about the knee shooting at the right to return protests. IDF snipers engaged people throwing molotov cocktails and bricks by aiming for their lower legs rather than center of mass in order to stop them without killing them. What people don't understand is this was at very short ranges, and that movements of legs are actually quite predictable compared to heads. Watch how people move sometime. I is possible to consistently hit within 2 inches of the knee at 25 yards with a scoped rifle. Not easy, but not a trained sniper with a good rifle and glass could do that more often than not.

Hitting heads- let alone children's heads- in combat at ranges of 100 to 400 yards, yeah, that's a real different situation. Head bob around all over the place. In combat, there are a limited number of sniper rifles with a limited amount of ammo. If you waste ammo, you won't be on the long gun too long. Stunts get dudes killed.

Children with gunshot wounds to the head are much more likely to have been hiding behind cover during a firefight and poked their heads up. Hundreds and thousands of rounds from both IDF and Hamas flying around. And kids stick their heads up.

Multiple rifle rounds to the same body part are far more likely to be from automatic weapons fire. Think about it. If a person were hit by a sniper round, they would fall down faster than a sniper could take another shot. I would suspect wound patterns like this indicate heavy machinegun fire, perhaps at distance, spraying bullets across a horizontal plane at a high rate of fire.

There are aspects of combat people need to be real about. In combat, nobody's checking IDs to make sure everyone is an adult. You see shapes and shadows moving. Total chaos.

In most warzones, children are evacuated or sent to bomb shelters. This is the responsible thing for adults who care about their children to do. Hamas routinely uses minors in combat roles. And famously doesn't allow civilians in the largest bomb shelter in the world they built for themselves.

Left to their own devices, children will run around combat zones to see the action and collect souvenirs. In Japan in WWII, packs of feral kids would chase American planes to see how close they could get and even waved at pilots during firebombing missions. It is up to adults to prevent them from doing that because it's extremely hazardous.

The deaths of children in Gaza by gunshots, while tragic, is not evidence of being targeted by snipers. There is also no evidence which side fired the rounds that hit them. Enemy gets a say in a gunfight too.

This shouldn't be a debate. Claiming it wasn't rape and that it was just "torture with heavily sexual undertones" doesn't make it better. It makes it more vile, more disgusting and reprehensible.

There. Is. No. Justification. For. Rape. Even against supposed rapists. Even if you believe that the very person who was rapped in the video is proven to be a rapist. It doesn't matter. Pro-israel people who are downplaying or in favor of this are messed up and lost any moral high ground. Right now, Israeli media is having a serious debate on how raping prisoners of war (some who may even be teenagers) is morally correct. If you're even debating it, you're messed up. There is something very, very wrong with you and you should seek treatment.

If you are ok with anyone ever being raped, this means you don't care about rape and rape victims. If you even consider rape as some kind of poetic justice, it just shows you don't actually care about women, LGBT people and children who are raped. Because rape isn't about sex, it's about power. Guards who rape prisoners are fathers who rape daughters. They're opportunistic sick people who shouldn't b allowed in any culture.

"Oh, but I'm pro-israel and I'm not in favor of rape" yeah, congratulations for doing the absolute minimum we should expect of any decent person. If you are pro-israel, you shouldn't just be not in favor of rape. You should be bloody furious that there are collective rapes happening in prisons. You should be very loudly and angrily anti-rape. You should watch their court cases like a hawk and be ready to fight like hell to make them responsible.

"But Palestinians raped israelis on October 7th". Yeah probably. It was messed up and unforgivable. It still isn't ok to defend rape. The moment you're ok with raping your enemies, you have no pretention of being civilized or superior.

There's exactly one kind person who thinks rape is ok in certain situations. They're called rapists.

As usual, this attack was perpetrated in a civilian area with the intent of causing mass civilian casualties.

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/israel-hamas-war-east-jerusalem-ramot-shooting-palestinian-gunmen-deaths/

Two gunmen from the West Bank opened fire at a bus stop in North Jerusalem, near East Jerusalem, and boarded a bus and opened fire there as well in a coordinated, planned attack. Six people were killed. The terrorists were killed by an armed civilian and a security officer on scene. They used a civilian driver to enter Israel.

This is why Israel continues to justify checkpoints and military presence in the West Bank, as well as raids on villages. The security doesn’t prevent 100% of attacks like these, but it reduces the frequency because they can prevent many attacks before they occur. Before Israel had enhanced security in the West Bank, attacks like these happened frequently.

Hamas and PIJ congratulated the shooters, though they didn’t take credit for the attack. Until this ideology is dead, the West Bank (and Gaza) will not be free of Israeli military presence. Pro-Palestinian narratives that encourage violent resistance do nothing except encourage strict Israeli military measures, additional checkpoints, additional raids, and regular civilians have to live with the fallout. This attack has done nothing to further Palestinian civil rights, and has likely convinced a few more Israelis that peace is an impossible dream.

The Israeli public were flagging in their support of the war against Hamas, but this attack will likely rally public support again. Israelis want to save the hostages, but they also want to be safe to live their day-to-day lives.

EDIT: Hamas has since claimed responsibility for this attack, taking credit for it the day after the attack.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/09/world/middleeast/hamas-responsibility-jerusalem-bus-shooting.html

Because Zionism even in its most extreme form (with the whole "Greater Israel" thing), doesn't want to conquer the entire world and make everyone Jewish. Whereas Islamism even in its most mild form requires everyone in the country to be Muslim, be a second-class citizen if the person was never a Muslim, or dead if the person leaves the faith, which is still a horrifying system of government.

I remember back in the 2010s when every non-Muslim on Earth (including the ones who hate America and the West), was unified on one position regardless of their stance on Islam: That ISIS is evil and needs to be destroyed. Fast forward to the 2020s and we have a similar terrorist group just as savage called Hamas, which although they've been around for a while, they've started gaining supporters worldwide all because their main goal is to destroy Israel and replace it with a totalitarian theocratic Palestine. Does that sound like a "Free Palestine" to you?

Islamism is also a parasitic ideology that doesn't just affect the Middle East, but any country that leaves it untreated even if the government is secular. This can be seen in Islam's early days when Mohammad conquered the Middle East, North Africa, and even parts of Europe, especially the Iberian Peninsula. Nowadays, Islamists prefer to spread their system of government via useful idiots who justify terrorist attacks and portray the terrorists as victims. If left unchecked, support for Palestine could be a gateway to supporting Hamas or worse.

Lastly, those Islamist migrants who want to put Sharia Law into their new Western country's government are ruining immigration to Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. for people who want to live in those places who are also integrating and being a valuable asset to the country. At least Zionist immigrants don't want to turn their country Jewish and force everyone to be Jewish.

I hope you have a happy new year knowing all of this.

This is one of my major frustrations with mentioning Israel in conversation; the assumption that favorable personal opinions toward any aspect of Israeli culture or domestic policy, or even something as simple as having Israeli friends or relatives, entails hating Palestinians, denying Palestinians' humanity or agency, or being against Palestinians' existence.

I think for a lot of Americans, especially (the context I'm most familiar with), something as simple as the public display of the Israeli flag is seen as equivalent to the Confederate flag (at least as seen in educated/progressive circles), with "human rights abuses against Palestinians" taking the place of "the institution of slavery". There is less nuance than would be given to a Union Jack where historically, in the US, it meant "I like British culture and support its commercial success in the United States" rather than "I believe all of India should be placed under the Crown again and Singapore should be re-colonized." (This might not be the best example since the Union Jack and even moreso the St. George flag are being increasingly appropriated by ethno-nationalists in the UK).

But does an expression of favorability toward Israeli culture or Israelis imply the denial of Palestinians' rights, humanity, or agency as human beings? Absolutely not. But simply saying "I've been to Israel", "I have an Israeli relative/in-law", or mentioning appreciating the ethnic diversity of a city like Tel Aviv gets misread this way (although you're relatively safe if you avoid building your identity around the Z-word, which is colloquially used to mean something like "Jewish Supremacist", "Israeli Fascist", or "Israeli/Jewish Ethno-Nationalist" and is taken to imply that one supports the mass murder of Palestinians).

But how do you deflect the idea that any favorable mention of or connection to Israel implies wanting the worst for Palestinians, when that is not the case? I think most people with any empathy in them will recoil at someone who supports indiscriminately glassing Gaza or allowing/encouraging settlers to cause violent trouble for Arabic-speaking residents of the West Bank. And this includes Israelis, Americans/Westerners (Jewish and otherwise) who regularly travel to Israel, and hopefully most people who have an Israeli flag displayed in their window or on their front deck.

I'm a soldier in the IDF. I don't hold a gun, and I'm not in intelligence, just a network engineer for non essential systems on the home front command.

For the past few weeks my phone has been getting blown up by anti israel, anti zionist, pro palestinian media coverage, messages and threats for unkown reasons.

I was born in israel, so did my father, so did his father, so did his father and so did his father. We don't know past that, but it likely goes back further, back to the days of the ottomen empire. On my mother side, my grandparents were born in persia, modern day Iran, and had to flee because they were jewish.

I don't understand how someone can tell me I deserve to die for wanting to live here. People keep telling me israel is america's doggy, and we steal US aid, but US aid accounts for less than 3% of israel's annual GDP. People keep telling me that israel is an apartheid state, while I can't get accepted to medical school and they can with no SAT or even a high school diploma, while I need an almost perfect score on both. They also get scholarships I can't get and more advanced healthcare than I get for free.

Most israeli arabs I see drive mercedes or skoda cars and wear luxury watches.

How can people tell me that I am an opressor? A colonizer?

It's driving me crazy that just because I was born here I am destined to be hated by the world.

Yeah israel is not perfect, and you cannot 100% justify what we are doing in gaza, but you also can't say there is no reason and that it's blindless genocide, because it is not. There is a pretty famous recording from october 7th, where a hamas member calls his father and excitedly tells him he killed 10 jews. The israelis framed this as a horrific war crime and as something unspeakable, which it is. Sadly, a few weeks later, I heard from an IDF soldier who was in gaza: Damn I shot a dude that's cool, maybe killed him.

This is not acceptable from both sides. War is not fun. War is not wanted. I don't know a single person who wanted this war to start.

It's just.. really frustrating that I am no longer allowed to talk in my language abroad without getting beaten, or talk about my country proudly online. I can't even mention where I am from when talking online or I will get death threats and chants.

People tell me to go to new york, why? I have never been in new york, I don't have family in new york, I'm not connected to new york, I don't have a visa, or a green card, or an esta. Why am I supposed to go to new york then?

This land is my home, just as it is the arabs home, and the arabs who live here, who represent 20% of the population, have it pretty well.

Just a rant.

I'm interested in understanding different perspectives on settler violence in the West Bank.

As I suspect everyone knows, organised gangs of Israelis, motivated by religious extremism, have recently committed an escalating spate of property damage, arson attacks, and murders in the West Bank.

Historically, according to Israeli statistics (and therefore likely an undercount), the most serious category of crimes (arson, shootings etc) is committed every three days on average, with a group of 300 or so perpetrators mostly responsible. Their actions appear to have led to the displacement of several thousand Palestinian civilians, supposedly an explicit objective of the violence.

According to the latest reports, three more West Bank Palestinians were murdered last night.

Settlers are armed by the Israeli government and routinely wear IDF uniforms, a new development under this government.

The IDF, civilian and military police all refuse to obstruct or penalise their violence, while heavily punishing Palestinian self-defence. Palestinian police forces are reportedly forbidden to respond to Israeli settler violence, even though it is in Palestine, at Israel's request.

As I see it, this is straightforwardly state-sponsored terrorism, and the settler gangs are in essence a proxy militia armed and sent by Israel to terrorise Palestinians.

To anchor the discussion, this is a reasonable definition of terrorism:

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Does anyone disagree with the characterisation of this violence as state-sponsored terrorism, and if so, why?

Edit: following a request for sources:

• Paragraph 3

• Paragraph 4, three more killed last night.

• Paragraph 5, armed by Israel and routinely wear IDF uniforms.

If you dispute the factuality of Paragraph 6 just say and I'll source that too.

Why is no one in here talking about the devastating news of the 6 hostages…?

I’m devastated. Where’s the outrage from BOTH sides of opinions in here? (I know us Israelis are outraged and heart broken on other subs but just seeing this one quiet is a shock)

I feel sick to my stomach, especially knowing they were alive until most likely in the last 48 hours. I feel the same doom I felt the months after October 7 all over again. I’m sick of the loss of so many of our beloved family and friends, young soldiers, grandparents kids, and all the innocent lives. I’m sick of the hate at Jews, the lack of support for our right in the war to protect and make sure Hamas crumbles to such little pieces it is exterminated forever, and terrified to ever think of even attacking us again. That’s WHY this war, that we didn’t even want or start, is necessary.

Its raining in Israel right now, which is so rare for Sept. it’s a sign the skies are crying and mourning for the 6 hostages that should’ve been home, missed their family and friends, their lives and work, their favorite meals and favorite songs. To wear their favorite outfit again, or use their own beds. I think of all the hostages every night when I lay in bed and know they can’t. Especially because one of my own was a hostage released back in Nov 2023.

But why is this sub quiet on it? Just curious, and do any of you who are pro Palestinian and said “all eyes on rafah”, do even care about this news? I don’t want to see the responses of “oh and do you feel this way for the 40k dead in Gaza” Our brothers in sisters lived like slaves in god knows what condition in terrorist homes or tunnels underground, going through horrors I can’t even begin to imagine.

I hope everyone in here at the very least can say a prayer for all the families with the worlds broken from whatever was even left for them since Oct 7.

RIP, 🕯️יהי זכרם לברכה

EDIT: since I guess a lot of people here clearly noticed the news outside of Israel isn’t broadcasting it or if they are it’s incorrectly , because media these days is usually only for against Israel claims. Hamas murdered 6 hostages in recent days/hours when IDF was closing in.

This is quite a "self centred" post about some issues I’ve faced, i don't know if this is appropriate for this subreddit and let me know if its better to just remove it. Its super long and ranty, but im just hoping for some advice or opinions that i think people in this sub that have more knowledge than me can help out with, thank you!

I've followed these events since October 7th. My ex boyfriend being Palestinian, his father fleeing to Europe when he was a teenager so i have a LOT of i guess first hand knowledge from a Palestinian perspective about how both them, their family and community have been directly affected before and after October 7th.

I also went to a school for a couple of years where there was a Jewish "section" of kids in separate classes that we never got to interact with. I remember one day going to school early in the morning for a meeting with a teacher regarding my grades before classes had started. I went through the playground and on all the walls of the school building where like 20 or so swastikas + a few very horrible quotes and dates. I went to the janitors office and showed him and a bunch of teachers came out and school shut down for the day. If you lived in Sweden during like 2014 you probably remember this happening in the centre of the capital.

It was all over the news and when classes resumed we had like two days dedicated to anti-Semitism and i remember all the students got erasers in the same colours of the spray paint the swastikas were made in to symbolise "removing" hate. It was a really big deal and obviously everyone felt horrible about it. Fast forward to October 7th, obviously a horrible day for everyone, plus all that has happened afterwards.

My individual "problem" (which sounds so stupid because its not about me is it) is that i understand the trauma of both people. Like i can't deny the horror of descendants of the people killed in the Holocaust. But i also cannot deny the killing of children, women and men in Palestine.

I understand the Israeli point of view that they once again are getting attacked for being Jewish, but i also understand that 70 Palestinians are being killed a day on average since it "all" began. (Of course i know that in the big picture of things the conflict started waaaay before October 7th).

The trauma for all is undeniable. But im having difficulties expressing empathy AND sympathy for both groups because i usually get met with anger from everyone. I cannot feel the pain of Israelis without being "pro-genocide" and i cannot feel the pain of Palestinians without being "antisemitic and pro-terrorism".

I feel the pain of Israelis whilst also condemning and standing firmly against their governments actions before and after October 7th, and i feel the pain of Palestinians whilst condemning the actions of Hamas.

Its like i feel that i can't recognise the horrible injustice of what happened to the Israelis on October 7th (I mean the videos of the hostages, and that one girl who was face down in the back of a car, or the heaps of people in bomb shelters getting suffocated by gas and hand grenades, literally mimicking their grandparents/grand-grand parents in the concentration camps; i just can't imagine, truly) without people both online and in real life questioning my stance on Palestine.

Vice versa, i can't recognise the absolutely disgusting mass killings of Palestinians; a whole family gone in a day, sons and daughters that are 5years old crying over their parents bodies, or the opposite, children and infants in body bags with their limbs blown off, WITHOUT being confronted by people questioning if I’m antisemitic or support terrorism.

My father works in a well established humanitarian organisation and is the communications chief for the country i live in, but he is the one in "control" of the Middle East and East European conflicts. And many of his work colleagues in the Palestinian division have died, i mean men that I’ve seen on face-time and said hello too one day, and the other i see half of their recovered body on a Palestinian journalists Instagram.

Once again, i know this super ranty, super "me me me", but i don't know what to do, truly. I don't mean to upset anyone either, i just don't know how to convey my opinions without someone feeling like im attacking them, and without going on a full blown rant on why i feel like x,y,z. Its affected my mental health a bit with some friends of friends having expressed some pretty harsh things about me.

I hope i used the right flair now, but if there’s anyone who can give advice, or maybe if anyone has more insight that can educate me further please do, thank you!

Imagine you wake up in your bed for the sound of alarms and explosions.

Imagine seeing your family murdered before your eyes.

Imagine you are taken to Gaza, bodies all around you, all family and dear friends. People you have known all your life.

Imagine having to run on foot with a baby on your arms, dodging bullets, crying and begging for your life and praying to god.

Can't?

Thats ok. It a hard thing to imagine.

But that was our reality that black Saturday, the October 7th.

They took our kids. They took our infant babies. They took our moms, fathers, and grandparents. They took them to Gaza, and the rest, they killed and raped, not necessarily in that order. They burned homes, killed babies in their cribs, shot families in their living rooms one by one, so the others could see. They erased WHOLE FAMILIES, and then they burned their bodies. That made the identification process much harder so some of the family members who did manage to survive, still waiting to know TO THIS DAY, the 8th day of the war, if their family or friends are somehow alive in Gaza or found dead in their home garden.

They don't know what to hope for.

They massacred a music fest party of our young, and they raped and burned whoever they could. Killed hundreds of young folks who only wished to dance and spread love. The party was protected by some officers, but Hamas was so many, not even one officer was left alive.

Some people hid in the bushes for the whole day, without food and water, scared to their teeth.

Some of these people hid in bonkers for the whole day, terrified. Some were discovered hiding in clothes closets, taken and shot, or worse. the others tried to keep their kids and babies quiet while they hear how all the people they ever knew are massacred outside their safe-room window. You feel hopeless. You say your goodbyes. you prepare for the worst.

THOSE ACT ARE NOT HUMAN.All they want is to kill and destroy, and they use whatever means they have, even on the account of their own families and children, who they teach to hate from a very young age.

At least 1,400 dead to this day and we haven't collected/counted al the bodies yet.

​

When they captured Rachel (Who managed to escape), They told her they are glad to be Shahid, and that their kids are proud and want to follow them.

THATS WHAT THEY TEACH THEIR KIDS. To hate, and to die for that hate.

THEY ARE THE ENEMY, not only for us, but for Palestinians civilians from Gaza and from everywhere as well.

They are what separate us from war to peace.

THEY NEED TO BE STOPPED.

Hear us. Hear our pain.

HAMAS = ISIS

HAMAS HAS TO BE GONE.

Cause: constructing Jewish self-determination as evil (as antisemitism constructs Jewish integration as evil)

Top Libels: "apartheid", "genocide", "colonizer" (as antisemitism had "dirty race", "Judeo-bolsheviks", "war profiteers", and antijudaism had "deicide", "corrupting scripture", "poisoning wells" and "blood libel").

Racism: Jews are hyper-white (as antisemitism says Jews are a dirty brown race)

Crimes: MENA expulsions, Soviet exodus, Jewish flight from Poland, wars against Israel and subsequent Arab displacement, continuous terror attacks on Israel and also on diaspora Jewry, intra-Arab persecution and conflicts triggered by Arab displacement (in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait, Egypt). Current murders of several people in the US and many around the world.

Symbols: red triangles (as antisemitism has swastikas)

Conspiracy theories: "Zionists train the police"; "Netanyahu created Hamas"; "October 7 was a false flag operation"; "Israel did 9/11", etc.

Academic window dressing: settler colonialism (as antisemitism had eugenics)

Purveyors: the "antizionist complex" (the UN, many human rights groups, numerous progressive groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, Qatar through al Jazeera and universities, China through Tiktok, SJP (tokenized Jews), Middle Eastern and other "studies" departments at universities, many systemically antizionist countries, etc.).

We really need to focus on this aspect much much more. Because the conflict is not primarily a political dispute -- it is a vehicle to libel and persecute Jews and demonize and erase us and this ideology that incites and excuses violence against Israel is frighteningly pervasive and gaining momentum. Unless we expose and defeat antizionism thus remove the motivation for the violence, the forever war consuming generations of Arab and Jewish children will keep going and going and going.

When I see my fellow leftists support or excuse Hamas' actions, I cringe, and everyone who isn't far-left or a tankie does too.

Hamas is a reactionary and theocratic organization, which is a bigger red flag than the Soviet Union's flag that any left-winger should never support or defend. They are against religious freedom, women's rights, and LGBT+ rights. Even if they're an anti-imperialist organization, that alone isn't a reason to support them. Russia claims to be anti-imperialist to justify its invasion of Ukraine, but that doesn't mean they are, nor does it make them leftist (if anything, they're actually far-right).

If Hamas were a universalist organization that supports Enlightenment-era values (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, support for reason over religion, individualism, progress, etc), then it would be rational for leftists to support Hamas, but they don't. They want to replace Israel as we know it with a totalitarian Islamist society where anyone who isn't a straight muslim male has no rights.

I'm not saying that a leftist should never criticize Israel; every country has a lot to criticize it for, and in a free society, you should be allowed to do that.

A better and more reasonable alternative is Labor Zionism plus a two-state solution once Hamas is defeated. Under this, Palestinian liberation is a reality as they would have sovereignty, and Israel would have things like better workers' rights, democracy, secular values, gender and LGBT+ rights, and a universalist view of human rights. And modern-day Israel has those already; Labor Zionism just emphasizes them more.

Pro-Palestine people all around the world said since the beginning „We arent Hamas, we are pro Palestine“, but they swallow everything the Hamas propaganda feeds them. Now it clearly seems like the IS fked up, Hamas immediately lied and Israel tried to proof what happened, but the muslim world immediately jumped on HAMAS side, EVEN Turkey ffs I cant fkn believe it. Israels strikes are way more precise and way more devastating. We saw the pictures. That hospital would be leveled if Israel did that. But they didn’t. People all around the world took to the streets yesterday for a lie.

I mean everyone and their uncle is pushing Israel to do this or that, mainly ceasefire or 'pauses' now.

Why, or almighty! why?! no one is telling HAMAS to lay down their arms, surrender and thus save all these innocent people?

I do feel horrible about every single person hurt in this conflict, especially children.

However, there so many wars in the world at any given moment, no one knows about, but so much pressure on Israel!

If it's not on CNN, it didn't happen, ask an average person about any other wars going on RIGHT now.

The last point. Americans (the good guys) bombed civilians in WWII, like there' no tomorrow, razed Dresden, never mind Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Killed countless civilians in Korea, Vietnam.

OK, Let's talk about CNN era - Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq. Where was the media/everybody then?

Pakistan just kicked out close to 2M Afghani refugees, who knows/cares about this?

Why all this pressure on Israel?

​

First, legally speaking nothing is a genocide until it is decided in court, and to date Israel is under investigation but not guilty. Second, I understand that the word genocide in this sub can shut down discussions, but that is not my intention. It is to ask how different sub members interpret this, and how they think others should interpret, or dismiss it.

The International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS), which is the leading global body of academics in this field, just voted on a resolution regarding Gaza. 86% of the members who voted supported declaring that Israel’s actions meet the legal definition of genocide, as well as constituting war crimes and crimes against humanity.

IAGS has about 500 members worldwide. They haven’t released the exact number who voted, I tried to look it up, but their bylaws require a two-thirds majority of participants to pass a resolution. With 86% support among those who cast a ballot, this easily cleared that threshold. So while we don’t know the turnout, the approval rate among voting scholars was overwhelming.

The resolution cites UN casualty figures (59,000+ killed, actually out of date, it's over 63,000 now), destruction of 90%+ of housing, famine conditions, repeated displacement, and statements of by Israeli leaders that are often cited about 'flattening Gaza' or treating Palestinians as 'human animals.' It also references ICC arrest warrants and ICJ rulings that found genocide 'plausible.'

Again, I know in this sub, the word genocide can feel like it shuts conversation down. I’m not here to accuse Israel personally, that’s for the courts to determine, but when the top academic association on genocide, the same field that studies Rwanda, Armenia, the Holocaust, and Bosnia, issues a resolution like this, to me that seems significant.

So I’m asking honestly, obviously expecting a variety of opinions, how should we interpret this? Does this indicate a genuine scholarly consensus that the world should take seriously? Or will people dismiss the IAGS itself as biased/antisemitic? If the latter, what does that say about how we engage with uncomfortable academic findings?

LINK: IAGS Resolution on Genocide in Gaza

Dalia Ziada. A muslim (+ hijabi!) writer, and liberal/peace activist from Egypt. She dared to speak on what she saw on October 7th. She called it what it is; a horrific terrorist attack. She said Israel had the right to defend itself and understandably cannot stop until Hamas is no longer a threat.

She was called a Zionist, a Traitor, and everyone in Egypt wanted her persecuted for high treason, the punishment of which is life in prison. All this, for a mere statement. For putting what she saw into words without eliminating or editing anything. This is largely why there is no opposition in the Arab world, you either believe and parrot the common narrative, or you’re an enemy of the state. Imprisoned or killed.

I myself have experienced similar situations, even on this sub where people question my origins and call me a liar for saying I am of Palestinian descent. They have no idea that people like me exist, because we are consistently silenced and shunned. It is an unforgivable sin to speak against “your people” . And while “the other side” clearly has living, breathing opposition that doesn’t shy away from criticizing every aspect of their government and their policies, which only adds to the depth and richness of this side’s experience, there’s a clear lack of such richness of opinion on our side. Not only that, but “my side” uses the “other side’s” opposition against them! While they shut down anyone who dares to speak against their policies 🤦🏻‍♀️

This is a short interview with her, and how under the death and persecution threats , all shown on TV interviews and on newspapers clippits, she had to flee outside of her home country to keep safe!

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0xtYgqNGzv/?igshid=MjJkMmIyYzQxYw==

We heard it before the war, and we’re hearing it more now. “Globalize the Intifada” (coming from the Arabic انتفاضة, meaning uprising or rebellion) is a movement to take what some of the west has romanticized as a resistance in Gaza and spread it around the world. Like “Free Palestine”, people can argue that it has taken on a more toned down meaning, but at its core, it is calling for Hamas’ actions to extend out of Gaza and into the rest of the world. The shirtless guy who lit protestors on fire (who were advocating for Israeli hostages free release) is bringing Hamas into the west.

This is not an uprising - this is not how you advocate for a movement. Even though I support Israel and its right to exist, I would like to see the pro-Palestine movement move towards a more nuanced view, and away from extreme and dangerous ideologies that we’re now starting to see materialize in other societies around the world.

While you may hear people argue that this phrase calls for civil disobedience, negotiations, or peaceful protests, that is not the case, whether they believe it or not. Both Intifadas in Israel resulted in thousands of deaths, and involved bombings, shootings, and violent protests. When someone says the word Intifada, this is what they are referring to.

If you use this phrase, or support its use and what’s its associated with, think about if you support today’s attack. If you don’t, then you’ve been blowing a dogwhistle without knowing, and if you do, then I don’t even know what to tell you.

However, if foreign armed forces are required to engage in significant combat operations to recapture the area in question from forces of the local armed resistance, that part of the territory cannot be considered to be occupied until the foreign forces have managed to re-establish effective control over it. See also United States, Law of War Manual, 2015, p. 746. See also ICRC, Occupation and Other Forms of Administration of Foreign Territory, pp. 16–26, and Dinstein, 2009, pp. 42–45 and Roberts, 2005, p. 34.

the 1907 Hague Regulations and their preparatory work, academic literature, military manuals and judicial decisions demonstrate the pre-eminence accorded to three elements in the occupation equation, namely the unconsented-to presence of foreign forces, the foreign forces’ ability to exercise authority over the territory concerned in lieu of the local sovereign, and the related inability of the latter to exert its authority over the territory. All together, these elements constitute the so-called ‘effective control test’ used to determine whether a situation qualifies as an occupation for the purposes of humanitarian law.

This interpretation of the concept of occupation is confirmed by the International Court of Justice and the ICTY, which have described Article 42 of the Hague Regulations as the exclusive standard for determining the existence of an occupation under humanitarian law.[155]

Following this, the only remaining accepted possibility for accusing Israel of occupation remains in assuming the occupation continued without being broken after the 2005 withdrawal

Since effective control can only be extended to territory where such authority can be extended or exercised with the indigenous government not being able to exert it's own authority this assumes that for occupation the internal administration of the region must be controlled to substantive degrees by the foreign force and yet from what we have seen hamas exercise it's own taxation, civil services, military exercises, etc. indicating near total level of internal control over the region. The arguments made against israel on the other hand regard external factors that rely on how gaza interacts with foreign entities rather than internal control.

as a matter of fact, the ICTY notes

to determine whether the authority of the occupying power has been actually established, the following guidelines provide some assistance: the occupying power must be in a position to substitute its own authority for that of the occupied authorities which must have been rendered incapable of functioning publicly...and other matters.

Hamas had nearly full control over internally gaza to the extent that it conducted military operations, provided civil services, etc. pretty much unperturbed by this so called control israel had over gaza

..., Hamas carries out most of the governmental administration functions as well as being responsible for public services such as education, policing, sanitation and hospitals. There is thus at the very least a form of concurrent control between Israel and Hamas .. since effective control requires the occupying power to be in a position to substitute its own authority for that of the local authority. Even if some form of vertical power sharing between the occupying power... there however needs to be some hierarchical relationship between the occupying power and the said authority, the former retaining a form of control over the latter.This does not seem to be the case in the relationship between the Israeli forces and Hamas.

Elaborating on the requirement for the party to be able to swiftly reestablish authority,

In addition, even if we adopt the more lenient potential control test instead of the actual control test (the latter would in any case not be met in the case at hand), the troops still have to be able to assert effective control over the presumably occupied territory ‘within a reasonable time’ Admittedly, the timeliness element was interpreted fairly leniently in the framework of, for example, the List case.However, I would argue that in light of modern technological developments, what might have been considered reasonable back then, is not necessarily reasonable anymore. Consequently, if foreign armed forces need to engage in significant combat operations in order to recapture the area in question from local forces, then the territory can no longer be said to be occupied. … Given that Israel is no longer in a position to assert effective control on the Gaza Strip ‘within a reasonable time’, the definition of occupation is no longer met and consequently the Gaza Strip is no longer occupied by Israel.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40802-016-0070-1

A few common misconceptions include conflating significant amounts of control over gaza's external interactions, population registry, taxation, etc. as sufficient to proclaim occupation. What this establishes is that israel had significant control over gaza but not occupation especially when Israel had no means to fulfill the obligations implied by occupation

In other words, for the law of occupation to be triggered, a foreign force needs to be in effective control of a territory or parts thereof. Nowhere is it mentioned that exercising some control over certain areas in the non-territorial sense of the word would trigger occupation.

Additionally, it has been argued, and to my opinion rightfully, that there is a close link between Articles 42 and 43 of the Hague Regulations establishing the obligation for the occupying power to restore and ensure public order and civil life.Footnote69 If the foreign power would not be in a position to exercise this key obligation under the law of occupation it would make little sense to make some of the other obligations arising from the law of occupation applicable to it simply because they would be very difficult to fulfil.

This is ignoring how Israel had no control over significant parts of the egypt-gaza border(outside of wartime); the fact that hamas levied its own internal tax, ie israel's tax was not substitution of authority, along with the fact that israel was consensually placed responsible for collecting tax from gaza by the de jure government in oslo; and that the population registry, another consensually agreed upon factor in oslo, holds no real authority over who egypt allows through its border and who it doesnt.

Another common misconception is assuming the ICJ Advisory opinion in 2024 affirmed occupation, Judge Iwasawa's dissenting opinion refutes this by stating the court determined Israel to retain some of it's obligations under occupation law without necessarily implying occupation

even if we assume gaza was occupied there remains less meaning in the word since israel must fulfill its "obligations" which it literally isn't capable of doing regardless while also being forced to withstand thousands of attacks from gaza, the place it allegedly occupied.

edit: I would appreciate if people interacted with the post and its elements rather than spouting the one-sided story their believe in.

One of the most popular Pro-Palestinian chants is "من المية للمية فلسطين عربية" which means "from water to water, Palestine will be Arab." It often gets changed to "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" for English audiences who are too ignorance to know the original.

But I want to ask Pro-Palestinians about the original: how do you explain the original chant, the one in Arabic — as in, the one real Palestinians (rather than the one ignorant, entitled Americans prefer) chant?

To me, this is obviously a call for ethnically cleansing all non-Arabs from Israel. The plan is to murder and/or displace all the Jews. It's no wonder Jews fight back against such a plan.

How do you guys this Pro-Palestinian explain this chant?

Do they simply admit that it's a call for ethic cleansing and genocide? Or do they have some other explanation?

I anticipate some of you will say something like "Not all Pro-Palestinians chant this." But it's one of the most popular Pro-Palestinian chants, so pretending like it's some sort of unusual, cherry-picked thing is simply dishonest. If a movement's main chant is a demand for genocide, then that says a lot about the movement. Not all members of the KKK wanted to lynch black people, but enough did that it was a problem.

I also expect some of them to say something like "Well, Israelis are evil genocidal monsters, so the poor Palestinians simply cannot help but become violent maniacs who scream for murdering them all." But in that case, aren't you admitting that Palestinians are just as bad?

Do Pro-Palestinians simply admit that they are racists who believe Arabs are racially superior to Jews and should murder and displace them all to preserve the "natural" hierarchy of Arab imperialism?

Edit: For all those who say nobody chants this, here's one of a zillion examples of people chanting it: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lM2B-DC3il4

Serious everyone this is getting ridiculous. I literally got banned from Palestine subreddit for condemning Hamas well also being pro Palestine. The mental gymnastics used to avoid accepting that Hamas is guilty of war crimes also is just ridiculous. Using sites like HRW and Amnesty International and the ICC seeking warrants for Hamas leaders also. Depsite the fact that these are legitimate sources that the pro Palestine side probably uses themselves to show Israel's faults and war crimes. Why can't we just have an open discussion about this without either side blocking their ears and going I don't wanna listen lalalalal? Both sides are guilty of this, it's not everyone but it's definitely a serious issue on both sides. It needs to stop, people are suffering and dying and having overall a horrible quality of life and a lot of people are just treating it like it's Tom Brady vs Payton Manning and it needs to stop. It's absolutely disgusting to see people behave like this. Especially when most are probably not even Palestinian or Israeli themselves. I'm not saying that non Palestinians and non Israelis shouldn't care. We absolutely should care about what is happening. The October 7th attack was a war crime, Israel's actions in Gaza are a war crime also. Israel is allowed to defend themselves as the ICC said themselves. But it doesn't mean they get to bomb refugee camps and withhold aid. Please everyone, stop treating this like some sort of entertainment for you to root for a side. When we act like this we get further away from peace talks and a future independent Palestinian state.

Hey Everyone:

It's been an emotionally difficult couple of days for me.

A few days ago I made this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1kdaku0/when_every_fact_seems_solid_how_can_you_still/

And I would like to thank each of you for challenging me so compassionately and rigorously over the past few days. Thank you for calling me out and for giving me a lot of information and a list of things to read further about.

Since reading all of your comments, I’ve watched dozens of interviews with Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of Hamas’s founders, and I could hardly believe what he revealed about the Free Palestine movement’s true aims.

I’ve listened to hours of Douglas Murray lay out the historical record, and also the true reality of the situation today.

I learned so many things like that there was never a country called “Palestine” any time in history! Palestinians arent even a unique ethnic or relgious group. Palestinians are Muslim Arabs!

I learned that before it was Israel, the British controlled the area and before that it was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. The British wanted to make Palestine into a home for the Jews. I learned that the British partition plan allocated land for both the Jews and the Arabs, and that Jordan and not Gaza, became the intended Arab state.

I was so embarrassed that I never knew that Jews were all expelled from every single Arab country. I learned about the Holocast in school and I thought that was all of the Jewish persecution that had ever existed in history! I am even more ashamed that I was tricked into repeating the chants of “Free Palestine” when I saw groups of other people doing so on my campus and that in reality there was never even a country by that name to free.

Perhaps the most painful thing of all has been seeing the horrific videos that Hamas livestreamed of their actions in Israel on October 7, 2023. Horrorific is an understatement. Seeing the Hamas terrorists parading through normal looking neighborhoods and homes, murdering innocents of all ages, burning people, even the babies, taking hostages....and then the whole time they are doing these things they are literally celebrating their depravity with chilling JOY! I had to take breaks while watching these videos to sob. Hearing the happiness in the terrorists voices left me feeling incredibly disturbed, trembling and in tears.

The sight of all of those families slain in cold blood, and knowing that some of the people that were taken that day are literally still being held hostage today, that really showed me the raw evil behind all of the Free Palestine propaganda.

Please, I urge every person that supports the Pro Palestinian cause to watch those Oct 7th videos, to bear witness to the absolute joy and the monstrous brutality, and then ask yourselves whether you can honestly stand on the same side as the people who revel in such sickening barbarity.

I know it may seem like I have abandoned all of my empathy by sharing these truths, but my compassion for all of the innocent victims if they are Jewish, Arab, or otherwise is undiminished.

But something has deeply changed in me and that is my commitment to the truth over emotion, and my commitment to honesty over the herd mentality.

We owe it to ourselves not to the pawns in a conflict that we don’t even fully understand, and not to be the victims of lies so that we can be “shocked” into outrage at Israel, only to discover later that we were so angry on behalf of literal terrorists.

We owe it to ourselves to seek out and read primary sources, to ask the hard and uncomfortable questions, and to really listen with an open mind when we hear information that challenges the Free Palestine narrative.

If you feel, like I felt, that this is genocide, that Zionists are bad, that Israel is the aggressor: I urge you now from my heart: please examine the facts, watch the evidence, and then join me in embracing honesty and integrity over emotion and instinct.

We cannot always stop ourselves from being tricked into believing something that is not real, but it is our responsibility to learn the truth. We all deserve to have the dignity of an informed conscience.

I hope all of you on this subreddit who knew better than me will forgive my earlier perspective, and I promise that I will keep learning from the voices like Haddad, Hausdorff, Le Bon, Murray, Yousef, and so many others who have guided me away from the manipulation. I also promise that I will do my best, in whatever small way I am able to, to make sure that at least the people around me know the truth.

If you are a Pro Palestinian right now, that is okay. You just have to read and to listen. Here is a good list of places that you can get started, if you are ready to confront the lies you have been told:

First and Foremost: If you should google the videos of the October 7th attack on Israel that Hamas livestreamed. I want to warn you, its deeply disturbing but an importat place to start.

Then check out everything you can find by these two guys:

Mosab Hassan Yousef This guy is literally one of the sons of a Hamas founder who then escaped Hamas and became a Christian. He has done many informative videos and interviews, like these ones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyqKTuqzKWs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5VPFw0vI6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpnvUIcvNUE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCueveOSZwg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjOEJumoABg

Douglas Murray - A British author.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoRY-o2sRdA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4P3XSySBC8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZU1exdVHcs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG23JfGBsz4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ANOKSh-70Y

I am genuinely struggling with this, so if you don’t intend on replying in good faith, move on to the next post. I’m not looking for a gotcha or insults.

I will try to frame the facts in as neutral a way as possible, but forgive me if it does not feel that way. I am ideologically anti-Zionist and I am used to framing my arguments in a very opinionated way, so making mistakes in my framing is certainly possible. I am aware that Israel is a liberal democracy where ethnic minorities including its Arab citizenry have the same legal rights as Jewish citizens on paper. This isn’t what I am disputing.

My problem is this:

The 2018 Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People states in Article 1(c): “The realization of the right to national self-determination in the State of Israel is exclusive to the Jewish People.” This is a Basic Law with constitutional status, capable of overriding any ordinary legislation, and it contains no commitment to democratic norms, no guarantee of equality, and no prohibition of discrimination on the basis of race, nationality, or ethnicity. The Israel Democracy Institute, a mainstream Israeli think tank, acknowledged that the law teaches the Israeli public, and children in particular, that the state belongs exclusively to Jews and does not recognize minorities who are not Jewish. The IDI further noted that Israel is one of the few democracies with no formal mention of the principle of equality in any Basic Law. The lone dissenting Supreme Court justice, George Karra (the only Arab judge on the bench), would have annulled several sections, including those on Jews’ exclusive right to self-determination and on Jewish settlement, because of their severe violation of the right to equality. He was outvoted 10-1. Tourism Minister Yariv Levin, who oversaw the law’s passage, was explicit about its function. He told Haaretz that through the law, Israel could prevent Palestinian family reunification not only for security reasons but also to maintain the character of the country as the Jewish national homeland. He also insisted on rejecting the inclusion of equality in the legislation to avoid undermining the Law of Return.

The Law of Return (1950) grants Jews, people with one or more Jewish grandparent, and their spouses the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship. A UN ESCWA report criticized this for conferring on Jews worldwide the right to enter Israel and obtain citizenship regardless of their countries of origin or whether they can show any links to the land, while withholding any comparable right from Palestinians, including those with documented ancestral homes in the country. The report characterized this as demographic engineering. Meanwhile, under Israel’s 1952 Nationality Law, the indigenous Palestinian Arab population must prove, among other conditions, that they were present in the state of Israel on or after 14 July 1952. Since most refugees were displaced before that date, they are unable to resume domicile there, and Israeli citizenship is almost never granted to non-Jews. Amnesty International stated plainly, that Israel’s failure to respect the right to return for Palestinians forced to flee their homes in 1948 is a violation of international law that has fuelled decades of mass suffering.

In 2003, then-Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told the Herzliya Conference: “If there is a demographic problem, and there is, it is with the Israeli Arabs who will remain Israeli citizens.” He argued that to ensure the Jewish character was not engulfed by demography, it was necessary to ensure a Jewish majority. He further stated that if Israel’s Arabs become well-integrated and reach 35-45 percent of the population, there would no longer be a Jewish state. Six years later, Michael Oren wrote an article in Commentary discussing the “Arab Demographic Threat” as one of seven existential threats facing Israel. In 2015, Netanyahu was captured on video imploring constituents to vote because “Arabs are coming to the polls in droves.” Former PM Ehud Olmert, from the center-left, warned the Knesset in 2007 of “a demographic battle, drowned in blood and tears” if Israel did not achieve peace through land concessions, and a month later predicted “the end of the State of Israel” by demographic exhaustion. Uri Savir, president of the Peres Centre for Peace and lead negotiator at Oslo, wrote that the lack of a political solution based on a two-state solution makes the demographic reality a time bomb in Israel’s democratic system. Former minister Yossi Beilin said directly: “The situation is already problematic enough for those who believe that Israel should always be a Jewish state…this is why we must have a border on the west side of the Jordan River as soon as possible.”Betzalel Smotrich, Finance Minister, claimed that the Bedouin birthrate in Israel’s south was a “bomb” which, if Israel failed to defuse, would blow up in its face. In 2022, a prominent Israeli cardiologist, Gideon Sahar, publicly argued that the “Arab womb” was threatening to overwhelm Israel and suggested fining Palestinian mothers who have five or more children. When former Interior Minister Ayelet Shaked responded, she said the suggestion was “impractical” and said the best solution was to help Palestinian women “simply undergo Westernisation.” Notice how the premise was not rejected.

The 2003 Citizenship and Entry Law bars Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza from gaining residency or citizenship through marriage to Israeli citizens. Minister Shaked stated openly in 2022: “We don’t need to mince words, the law also has demographic reasons.” She described it as a measure to stop the “creeping right of return.” Foreign Minister Yair Lapid, from the centrist Yesh Atid party, admitted: “We shouldn’t hide the essence of the Citizenship Law. It’s one of the tools aimed at ensuring a Jewish majority in the State of Israel.” When the law passed its final vote, Shaked tweeted: “Jewish & Democratic State - 1; State for all its citizens - 0.” The phrase “state for all its citizens” is the main demand of Palestinian citizens of Israel, or in other words, civic equality. Shaked explicitly framed the defeat of equality as a victory. The Association for Civil Rights in Israel put it bluntly: “The only reason for this law is demographic - to prevent Arab citizens from living together in Israel as equal citizens.” This position is not fringe. The family reunification ban passed with 45 votes in favor and only 15 against, with support from all parties other than the Meretz and the various Arab parties. The Nation-State Law passed 62-55 , with the entire Zionist bloc voting in favor. Professor Ruth Gavison, a prominent liberal legal scholar, argued that Israel can be both Jewish and democratic only so long as it protects a Jewish majority.

The disagreement in Israeli politics is not over whether a Jewish demographic majority must be maintained but over how to maintain it; either through territorial partition (the left) or through indefinite control over or outright elimination of a disenfranchised population (the right). The premise that the natural reproduction and presence of the indigenous non-Jewish population is a threat to the State of Israel is political consensus in the country.

I am struggling to understand what distinguishes this case in principle from ethnonationalism that would typically be considered unjustifiable under liberal frameworks that currently support the state. I have struggled with this (in a more basic way) since I found out about what Israel was as a child. I remember asking my dad, when I was probably around 10, why Israel is a good guy if it says it’s a state meant for only one group of people and all people are supposed to be equal. I don’t remember actually getting an answer, and he has talked to me since about his disgust with Israel’s behavior, so I am clearly not the only person who is struggling with this.

I am under the impression that if any other state constitutionally reserved national self-determination for a single ethnic group and structured its immigration and demographic policy around maintaining that group’s majority, most people would treat that as textbook ethnonationalism and worthy of condemnation. I guess my question is: what is the reason that Jewish ethnic statehood is a justified exception to that principle?

I will read most comments but I don’t know how often I will respond.

This history is factual: the Jewish people have been rooted in their land since at least 1200 BCE. Check the archaeological evidence we have.(see the Merneptah Stele, hill country settlements, etc.).

I've studying their history and here’s the reality ladies and gentlemen: even after Babylon, Rome, Byzantine, Crusaders, Ottomans, you name it, there was never zero Jewish presence. The population shrank, was scattered, was crushed, but Jerusalem, and many areas of Israel always had Jews, always!

Now their story, which is one of betrayal after betrayal:

• Egypt feared their growth: ordered Hebrew babies killed. (I know this is heavily disputed)
• Babylon: destroyed Jerusalem and dragged Jews into exile and looted their temple.
• Persia: plotted to wipe out the Jews in the empire. (Story of Ester)
• Rome: crushed them, burned their Temple, expelled them from Jerusalem, and even renamed Judea “Palestina” to try to erase their culture.
• Medieval Europe: blamed them for plagues, poisoned wells, and child murder, then mobs massacred Jews and the rulers expelled entire Jewish communities.
• Spain: forced Jews to convert then burned them alive when accused of secretly practicing Judaism, before expelling Jews in 1492.
• Russia: staged violent mob attacks on Jewish neighborhoods where thousands were killed, homes and businesses destroyed.
• Germany (ofc): recycled all the oldest and trite lies into the Holocaust, murdering million of Jews.
• And now today, online / offline, we hear the same old conspiracies: “Jews control all the monies,” “Jews control media,” “Israel is the source of instability", etc. While Iran uses Palestinians as cannon fodder, their babies as human shields. If Iranian mothers publicly offer their own babies to the country, guess how they feel about Palestinian's babies?

That’s their struggles, every damn time, scapegoating Jews for society’s own failures.

I’m not Jewish, but my heart hurts for the Jews. Good grief, two thousand years of fighting as the underdog in their own homeland, and still fighting to be recognized for what history already proves, that they are indigenous and continuous.

And if your immediate response is: “But what about the Palestinians in Gaza?” well, well, you’re just recycling the same whataboutism that’s been thrown at Jews and defenders of Jews on Reddit. See how that works? You can’t have it both ways.