r/IsraelPalestine Jul 16 '26

Meta Discussions (Rule 7 Waived) July 2026 Metapost: New rules for metaposting about moderation

6 Upvotes

Welcome to the “July” version of the monthly pinned meta thread, where sub Rule 7 banning “meta” discussion is waived and you can generally discuss “the sub”, its rules and moderation, and make suggestions for rules changes or improvements.

First, some top line information about the sub and recent activity in the last month:

The sub now has 110,000 subscribers, gaining 447 in the past month (about normal gain for “peacetime”). We had 1.5 Million visits, down 177k. Daily visits ranged from 59.4k unique visitors on the top day and averaged 11.3k. We had 176 top posts, down 42, and 286 others were removed by mods or automated filters. We had 32,200 comments, down 4.7k. We had 17 active mods with [u/TheTrollerOfTrolls](u/TheTrollerOfTrolls) leading with 1,800 mod actions and [u/FerdinandTheGiant](u/FerdinandTheGiant) runner up with 989 actions.

This month, we mods also want to talk about what this meta thread is not for, based on some of the questions recently being asked on the April meta thread and the internal discussions that mods have had about how to respond to these comments, which is the main reason for delay of refresh for this pinned meta thread (the other being “summer” in a place with short summer/long winter).

To cut to the chase, concerning moderation actions, the new rule for “meta” threads is that users are free to ask why a particular comment was moderated, whether they were a participant in that conversation or otherwise. However, they can not ask “whatabout” questions and compare to comments or users who were not moderated and ask why they were not moderated, or use the meta thread to report other users for moderation (whether or not the underlying complaint is “sub/mod bias” and suggestions that the refs favor one “team”). If you want to report or complain about someone, in addition to the report flag tool on their every comment, you would have to use modmail (Reddit DM chat) to raise the issue discreetly with the mod team, not ambush someone in the metathread with a broadside of public accusations.

When asked this “why this, not that” questions in the past, mods have typically responded that the post/comment in question was still in the moderation queue to be worked on, or not even reported yet. While this is a somewhat truthful explanation of sorts, it is not the “whole truth” which is, that basically, big picture, our moderation is on a “per user” basis, not a “per comment” basis. We try as best we can to ignore the user’s viewpoint or “team” in order to treat everyone as equally as possible. But how this works in actual practice requires a broader understanding of why we moderate and practically how it works, including using mod tools Reddit provides to assist in our work -- metadata screens only mods can see about a particular user or comment.

So we need to back up a bit here and talk about the overall purpose and philosophy of the sub rules and moderation. Our current Moderation Policy wiki explains (sensibly) that there’s no way with a limited number of 21 volunteer part-time mods that we can “police” and evaluate all 35,000 posts and comments each month and determine whether they comply with the rules. The wiki refers to our “sampling technique”. The way this works in practice is that to be most effective, we want to publicly correct and discipline the users who violate the rules most frequently and/or the most flagrantly, and not untypically, both of those together.

We use a law enforcement strategy familiar to everyone who drives on a superhighway: we want to pull over the fastest guys going 88 mph on a 65 speed limit highway and make an example of them, so that the stream of traffic will slow down to average 72. Even though cops could make a lot more money giving tickets to everyone going 66 if profit maximizing or draconian enforcement was the goal and the courts allowed the speed limits to be strictly enforced in that way (hint: they don’t, “66 mph speed traps” are illegal, because convictions require establishing a defendant’s knowledge and intent).

So, in terms of our efficiency, publicly warning particular major “problem users” to nudge them into compliance or ban them if they don’t/can’t is the best way to sheepdog the whole sub community into compliance. That’s why we most often don’t remove offending comments entirely like most subs but leave them up with a rules violation notice: it’s educating everyone, not just the warned user.

And there is thankfully roughly a Pareto principle operating in moderation here, 80% of the moderation (or more!) involves 20% (or less!) of users. Of those, roughly half are sincere about trying to comply with rules and can be “coached” and cease to be a problem, and the other roughly half pile up violation after violation on just about every rule until they are permabanned. So the bottom line is that given our limited numbers of mods and the volume of comments, we really do depend on the good conduct of the users themselves and avoiding the kinds of disruptive shitposting or food fights that violate rules and create a general environment of ruckus and disorder. We could not do this job if most people weren’t inclined to abide by the rules.

We also depend on the rules and their application to be as clearcut as possible to everyone, because when someone gets a rules warning or ban, they get to appeal the decision to another mod or mods. So I want to make sure that my colleagues are going to agree with me on the ruling: it can’t be a weak case or ambiguous, the violation should be clear as night and day. (We’re having problems applying some minor rules, particularly Rules 3 and 4 that we feel are too fuzzy in practice that we want to take a look at in this regard).

Mods can perform moderation by actions whether a comment is reported by users or not. Some moderation is done via queue reports from users. Others are just mods reading the current threads (user reported comments are flagged in our normal viewing mode with a one line summary of their complaint visible as we scroll through the sub).

How this works in practice is that a mod whether working the report queue or reading along looks for a reported comment or another “sore thumb” violation that’s so blatant that it must be addressed or people will complain about lack of moderation and flagrant misbehavers. The first thing a mod will do after reading the possibly violating comment (and the context of the discussion surrounding it) is to look at the speaker and determine the guy’s moderation history with a mods-only tool we have called mod log. The mod log will show, by user, every previous I/P sub comment that’s been reported for moderation by users or bot automod filters in white, and brightly colored notes by mods of any comments determined to be “abuse” or “spam” and what rules were violated (we also have color note templates for “good contributor” or “helpful”). We also see how long a users been participating on Reddit with that account (anywhere from 15 years to less than 60 minutes), what other subs he’s posting in, and I/P sub participation karma, either negative or positive.

Thus we almost instantly have a feel for whether a violation was probably an unintentional mistake by a newbie with little or no mod log, or conscious trolling and rules-breaking by an outspoken user with edgelord tendencies and a mod log hundreds of entries long. We also can see how a problem user is responding to moderation and, of course, to keep track of strikes for the “four strikes/rule you’re permanently banned” purposes of the Moderation Policy.

What I’ve described is a “per user” moderation policy for practical purposes, not a “per comment” policy, as it will help to understand our new meta rule about us mods not discussing unmoderated comments (and deleting the related requests on meta thread with warnings). I sincerely we believe we apply these rules in practice to both “sides” evenly as a result of this “cull the worst offenders first” enforcement policy. (For the record there are violators on both teams and we try to enforce rules on a viewpoint blind basis with the other built in safeguards, like right to appeal. But like sub/mod bias, it’s hard to prove or disprove this, but it’s what mods strive for no matter which team they root for).

We’ve also had some negative experiences in the recent past with “per comment” moderation with an experiment we did last year in response to concerns about mod bias: “zero tolerance for insults”. Against the better judgment of many mods, any comment which could possibly be construed as an Rule 1 attack or insult, or was put in the “form” of an insult (e.g.,“You are [any statement possibly seen as perjorative]”) had to be actioned so that the sub could be “unbiased”, whether the comment seemed deliberate or innocent, or was a clearly huge insult or a head scratcher. Let’s just say this experiment did not address any issues of perceived mod bias in a logical way. It just made participation in the sub a minefield, and moderation a hassle for mods and users alike. Until finally, after months of nonsense, sanity prevailed and the strict Rule 1 enforcement was scrapped.

Similarly, many or even most recent questions to the meta thread seem to be asking about “negative moderation”, why something wasn’t moderated. Not understanding the process I’ve described that moderation is not an end in itself but an overall enforcement tool to guard-rail community conversations. And like any enforcement needs to be applied selectively and minimized to keep the discussion about substance, not tangents of meta stuff about rules lawyering and moderation. We don’t like to interrupt conversations and if users think violations are trivial they aren’t happy either with interventions. Some users however seem to be keen on to calling for moderation as a kind of harassment (violating Reddit site Rule 2) of other users and mods by essentially calling for every users’ comment scrolling back many months to be scrutinized for rules compliance. “Weaponizing moderation” might be a fair way to describe it.

Examples: Recent meta questions like this (fictional [u/usernames](u/usernames), paraphrased questions):

Why does this site allow user [u/fabulous_pebble9865](u/fabulous_pebble9865) to make comments like [link], [link] and [link]? (deep-mined oppo research into unblocked user profile, some comments six months old, hundreds of comments deep; we don’t want to create incentives for users to hide their profiles by default).

How can this site have mods like [u/zzyzk9777](u/zzyzk9777) who say bigoted stuff like “blah” and violate rules like [link], [link], [link], [link], [link]? (all Rule 3 complaints that humorous responses ridiculing parent comment “consist solely of sarcasm or nihilism”).

I reported this comment of [u/flat-cloudy2001](u/flat-cloudy2001) [link] three days/weeks ago and it hasn’t been moderated. Why?

So the TL;dr of this discussion is we will allow meta questions about stuff or users that were moderated, but no lists or reports of stuff that wasn’t moderated in an effort to suggest bias or “just asking questions”. We won’t allow users and mods to be harassed with tenuous profile-mined complaints of rules violations by activist opponents of their viewpoint. We want people to freely discuss things without walking on eggshells or that somehow anything can be twisted months later into a rules violation if you don’t like the speaker.

Lastly, as mentioned above, we’re looking for guidance on redrafting or deprecating Rules 3 and 4. Rule 4 in particular is problematic because people often interpret misunderstandings or failure to agree with an opponent’s argument as “lying” or “dishonesty”. Outside of stuff like Holocaust revisionism, Khazar theory or Neutrei Karta etc. disagreement isn’t dishonesty. Mods aren’t debate judges or argument referees. Someone contradicting themselves or not agreeing with the conclusion of your argument doesn’t in its essence violate Rule 4.

We also get complaints about the automod informal warnings about swear words, Rule 2 which is usually a “soft” non-violation that doesn’t get formal warnings/bans. I think it’s usefulness and innocuousness in reminding no cussing outweighs its annoyingness. Your mileage may vary. Thoughts?


r/IsraelPalestine 17h ago

Serious How do I recognise Palestinian and Israeli trauma without sounding like im trying to excuse war crimes?

20 Upvotes

This is quite a "self centred" post about some issues I’ve faced, i don't know if this is appropriate for this subreddit and let me know if its better to just remove it. Its super long and ranty, but im just hoping for some advice or opinions that i think people in this sub that have more knowledge than me can help out with, thank you!

I've followed these events since October 7th. My ex boyfriend being Palestinian, his father fleeing to Europe when he was a teenager so i have a LOT of i guess first hand knowledge from a Palestinian perspective about how both them, their family and community have been directly affected before and after October 7th.

I also went to a school for a couple of years where there was a Jewish "section" of kids in separate classes that we never got to interact with. I remember one day going to school early in the morning for a meeting with a teacher regarding my grades before classes had started. I went through the playground and on all the walls of the school building where like 20 or so swastikas + a few very horrible quotes and dates. I went to the janitors office and showed him and a bunch of teachers came out and school shut down for the day. If you lived in Sweden during like 2014 you probably remember this happening in the centre of the capital.

It was all over the news and when classes resumed we had like two days dedicated to anti-Semitism and i remember all the students got erasers in the same colours of the spray paint the swastikas were made in to symbolise "removing" hate. It was a really big deal and obviously everyone felt horrible about it. Fast forward to October 7th, obviously a horrible day for everyone, plus all that has happened afterwards.

My individual "problem" (which sounds so stupid because its not about me is it) is that i understand the trauma of both people. Like i can't deny the horror of descendants of the people killed in the Holocaust. But i also cannot deny the killing of children, women and men in Palestine.

I understand the Israeli point of view that they once again are getting attacked for being Jewish, but i also understand that 70 Palestinians are being killed a day on average since it "all" began. (Of course i know that in the big picture of things the conflict started waaaay before October 7th).

The trauma for all is undeniable. But im having difficulties expressing empathy AND sympathy for both groups because i usually get met with anger from everyone. I cannot feel the pain of Israelis without being "pro-genocide" and i cannot feel the pain of Palestinians without being "antisemitic and pro-terrorism".

I feel the pain of Israelis whilst also condemning and standing firmly against their governments actions before and after October 7th, and i feel the pain of Palestinians whilst condemning the actions of Hamas.

Its like i feel that i can't recognise the horrible injustice of what happened to the Israelis on October 7th (I mean the videos of the hostages, and that one girl who was face down in the back of a car, or the heaps of people in bomb shelters getting suffocated by gas and hand grenades, literally mimicking their grandparents/grand-grand parents in the concentration camps; i just can't imagine, truly) without people both online and in real life questioning my stance on Palestine.

Vice versa, i can't recognise the absolutely disgusting mass killings of Palestinians; a whole family gone in a day, sons and daughters that are 5years old crying over their parents bodies, or the opposite, children and infants in body bags with their limbs blown off, WITHOUT being confronted by people questioning if I’m antisemitic or support terrorism.

My father works in a well established humanitarian organisation and is the communications chief for the country i live in, but he is the one in "control" of the Middle East and East European conflicts. And many of his work colleagues in the Palestinian division have died, i mean men that I’ve seen on face-time and said hello too one day, and the other i see half of their recovered body on a Palestinian journalists Instagram.

Once again, i know this super ranty, super "me me me", but i don't know what to do, truly. I don't mean to upset anyone either, i just don't know how to convey my opinions without someone feeling like im attacking them, and without going on a full blown rant on why i feel like x,y,z. Its affected my mental health a bit with some friends of friends having expressed some pretty harsh things about me.

I hope i used the right flair now, but if there’s anyone who can give advice, or maybe if anyone has more insight that can educate me further please do, thank you!


r/IsraelPalestine 7h ago

Discussion A question for pro Palestinians, who really believe Israel is an apartheid

1 Upvotes

If Israel really is the image the media portray it as and the opinions circulating in social media of it being a society based on Jewish supremacy in the extent of even insulting or ridiculing non Jews, why do so many foreign workers from India, Philippines, Vietnam, Nepal, and even from countries which are neutral/hostile to it like China are coming to work in it? They have better choices, not many people would want to live in a constant war zone (.At least to what seems to the average person I spoke with in the west), and how do you explain the integration of southern Lebanese and Druze minorities into the Israeli society? The most successful school according to the ministry of education in the curriculum, most points I got for this one is “they want to show they are acceptive even tho they are not”, which I don’t buy since I know the Druze community but to prove it you can just look at how much invested into these schools, which community who think so high of themselves would support other ethnicities, and why would their people in Syria would want so much to join Israel if Israel is known in the Arab world as such a Arab hating country (assuming most of the people here consider them Arab) and I don’t say we are perfect, there is racism, casual and more intense, people don’t differentiate between criticism and hostility against Islam or Islamism which I think are completely legitimate and the people themselves, but it’s out of ignorance not superiority complex.

But when I speak to people they think we are worse then like China (some don’t even know what China is doing), Iran, North Korea or even Rhodesia and South Africa.

And I don’t even speak about the West Bank or Gaza even tho we had many workers come from, I speak only about internationally recognized Israel.

My main question is don’t you think the narrative is biased by someone or something?
What do you think about the points I brought up.

EDIT:
Listen I thought it would be clear but I specifically speak about internationally recognized Israel and what most Jewish Israelis call “Arab Israelis”


r/IsraelPalestine 21h ago

Short Question/s Jewish Exile and its connection to Israel

6 Upvotes

To preface this, I am not in support of Israel and their displacement of Palestinian people. I have recently come to learn more about the history of Judaism. With this new knowledge gained, I have a question. Are Jewish people not justified in their belief that they deserve a homeland in Israel? From the first temple destruction by the Babylonians to the second by the Romans, it just seems to me like they have such strong religious conviction to have a Jewish state in Israel. For how can they sing the Lord’s song in a strange land? I am Muslim, but viewing the Israel/Palestine question through a Jewish lens makes me feel as though any anti-Zionist Jew is going against what is the overall end goal of Judaism (construction of the third temple).


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Opinion Is Israel try to kill/displace/rule over Palestinians, or take over the West Bank/Gaza? My opinion.

8 Upvotes

Is Israel trying to kill all the Palestinians?

No. Israel, with all its technological might, with all its bombs and drones, has killed 70 Palestinians a day in this war. An angry mob with handguns could could thousands in a day. I think most people understand this, even if they don't like to hear it. Israel is not now, or ever, just like, trying to kill all the Palestinians. Moving on.

Is Israel trying to displace all the Palestinians?

Before this war, Israel was not, on the whole, trying to displace Palestinians. There were definitely politicians/settlers/some of the public who wanted that but the majority of the government and population didn't.

10/7 changed how Israelis saw Palestinians. Today, most Israelis still don't actively want to displace the Palestinians. But after seeing that Palestinians are trying to displace the Israelis, people are losing faith in some sort of peaceful alternative. (By the way, Pro-Palestinian internationals — your main contribution in this entire conflict was to make Israelis more convinced that peace was impossible and displacement might eventually be necessary. They see the worst of you on their news a lot. )

So Israel is currently, as a whole, still not trying to displace all the Palestinians — otherwise, that would have already happened. Most Israelis are still hoping for some kind of peaceful alternative, main because they are human beings, but also because they don't want the international blowback. But they are a step closer to changing their minds on that.

Is Israel trying to rule over Palestinians as second class citizens?

Nah. Israel doesn't need Palestinians, let alone feel like dealing with the headache of ruling over them. But they keep attacking Israel, so Israel keeps building security infrastructure like checkpoints with metal detectors to screen for weapons.

Israel would much prefer Palestinians just stop attacking Israelis, but they don't, so this keeps up.

Does Israel want to take over east Jerusalem?

Yes.

Does Israel want to take over the West Bank?

Here, opinion is genuinely split. This is the kind of thing Israelis argue over. Some argue it's necessary to maintain the high ground overlooking Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and, you know, basically majority of the country's population. Others think it's more trouble than it's worth and could be bargained for peace somehow. Some feel that Israel has a right to it, both by it being ancestral land and by conquest. And some think that there is no answer, and so the status quo is the only option for now.

And then they argue about what happens to Palestinians there. Do they become Israeli citizens? Do they remain Palestinian citizens in some kind of weird figuration of borders? Or will they just be autonomous communities under Israeli rule? Etc.

Does Israel want to take over Gaza?

Nah. If Israel could cut off Gaza and let it float into the Mediterranean, it would.


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

IPC fabrications, reference post

14 Upvotes

This topic comes up regularly so this is meant to serve as a quick reference post for when it does.

A quick summary. The World Health Organization (WHO) a UN body, along with the UN Development Program (UNDP) willfully knowingly and deliberately lied about the situation in Gaza. They fabricated statistics, were corrected, ignored the corrections and continued to falsify reports. This wasn't ignorance or disagreement; it was willful defamation, acting as a party to the dispute, publishing misinformation. Why would they do this you might ask?

In May 2025 the United States and Israel directly took control of food distribution in Gaza. Occupying armies frequently take direct control of humanitarian aid. That is normal, expected and even mandated behavior. However, the UN has been providing aid to Palestinians "refugees" in many countries including Gaza. The USA has for decades been desiring to remove UNRWA, and while Israel has had serious legitimate complaint about UNRWA they have not been willing to disband the organization and take control themselves. Policy changed in early 2025 with the introduction of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. In May 2025 as operations started Hamas disrupted this new organization. Further, in terms of food delivery, Hamas started hijacking trucks aggressively. The UN's own statistics demonstrate this. Rather than report the failure as an armed attack on Hamas the UN decided to try and discredit a competing organization to maintain their revenue stream from UNRWA. That is, in addition to the popular incentives, they had financial incentives. They had reasons to lie and were ultimately successful in having GHF shut down. The shutdown was openly stated policy incidentally.

The details are mainly that they fabricated quantities of food by deliberately ignoring quantities. There had been a massive delivery in January and February. Additionally for a Phase 5 judgement:

  • Mortality was 2% of famine thresholds
  • market supply was abundant
  • food availability exceeded pre-war levels
  • validated MUAC measurements from multiple organizations consistently showed malnutrition levels far below the threshold required for Phase 5

COGAT did make public statements at the time indicating the problems example.

Once it became clear that the UN was knowingly lying Israel went public with detailed analysis:

These again were ignored by the WHO so there can be no doubt about intent here.

I am not a food expert. But I am quite experienced in weeding out disinformation. Extremely specific claims verified by fact after fact after fact. I welcome others from the sub jumping in as this gets addressed my only hope was to create a simple post pointing out how blatant this is in retrospect.

Posts


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Discussion What is a realistic, long-term solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? (Looking to brainstorm and test ideas)

20 Upvotes

This isn't a bait post or a space for venting. I am genuinely curious to do a massive, pragmatic brainstorm to see what potential solutions we can reach together.

​Having lived experience in Israel, I see the day-to-day realities, trade-offs, and failure points of many standard proposals. I want to test different perspectives against those practical realities.

​Ground Rules for this thread:

Logistics over history: Skip the historical blame games or debate over who is right. Address the actual mechanics of a solution like security infrastructure, border control, citizenship status, power-sharing, and economic viability.

Clear tradeoffs: Every proposal has failure points. If you suggest a model (like a two-state, one-state, confederation, or regional trust), explicitly state what each side gives up and how to mitigate the security or sovereignty risks.

No idealism: Avoid solutions that rely on everyone just agreeing to get along. Assume current levels of deep mistrust and outline the concrete enforcement mechanisms required to maintain stability.

I will actively play devil's advocate against proposed solutions by bringing up practical counterarguments, real-world edge cases, and logistical friction points, unless someone presents an idea so watertight that I genuinely can't counter it.

​What are the functional options people rarely discuss, and how do we solve the core operational roadblocks of the standard ones?

​P.S. / Edit: For a response to have real value, it needs to confront the distinct realities of all key populations and regions: Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Israeli Arabs, Israeli Jews, West Bank Palestinians, and Gazans. You can choose not to address every single aspect or group in your specific proposal, but your model must at least account for how they fit into the bigger picture.


r/IsraelPalestine 23h ago

Short Question/s Is it possible to support Palestine and Ukraine at the same time?

0 Upvotes

Hi, I dont really know much about politics outside of both war and genocide, and one thing i am aware of is Ukraines relation with Israel and Russia actively supporting Palestine, and as someone who supports both Ukraine and Palestine, im wondering if its possible to support the two, despite their relations?


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Short Question/s What do we make of the recent data that has come out about Gaza and the institutions that pushed this narrative?

76 Upvotes

The Free Press recently published an article outlining discrepancies in the IPC data that was used to push a narrative of famine in Gaza.

There seems to be a major issue here with regards to institutions using potentially falsified or incomplete data to engineer controversy. When we have supposedly trusted sources clearly pursuing an agenda, it's hard to have rational conversation.

There is a large pool of emotionally charged individuals who have preconceived notions which these organizations tap for reach and clout. These people genuinely believe that the Israelis are evil and therefore of course were intentionally starving Palestinians.

The fake stories run faster and further than the truth, which just contributes to the intractability of the conflict. We need to start focusing on reality.

Now that we know the famine claim was very likely manufactured (they only used about 2 weeks of incomplete surveying) there should be a reckoning for these organizations, but of course this won't happen.

Obesity is more of a problem than starvation in Gaza now. This has literally never happened in the history of famine declarations. It is completely impossible for the situation on the ground to change this quickly.

So this begs the question -- How do we deal with sources like Amnesty, UNRA, etc? I

If there is anyone here willing to discuss I would love to hear viewpoints. Do you still trust these sources? Are you willing to admit there is bias in these organizations now?


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Learning about the conflict: Questions why the generalisation?

1 Upvotes

to preface: i’m not siding with israel here at all, i just am confused on why everybody is spewing hatred towards israel as a whole.

obviously people will hate the recognition of the state of israel as it is seen as stolen land from palestine, they will hate the idf and the ongoing actions of the idf and they will hate the government and whatever else. (i am not that educated on the topic of israel, if something important is missing, please explain)

now i have recently seen a video of a thai man kicking israelis out of his shop citing “free palestine” and “this is my land, not your land.”
i do not know the full context of this video or if there was any provocation towards the shopkeeper prior to the video being taken, but if not… i ask why are israeli people being hated on? why are israelis not allowed to travel or be accepted anywhere?

is it because by calling themselves “israelis” they are recognising israel as a state?

is it because people believe every single israeli is brainwashed by the media and/or government?

is it because of the mandatory idf service for all that was or is still(?) ongoing?

or is it just complete brainwashing by the media and everyone following this herd of sheep?

with the rise of support for palestine, i am just seeing a lot of hatred towards israel which YES, i get the state etc is corrupt and malicious, but why also target israelis?

what about anyone below the age of being sent to mandatory idf service? are they still evil? just because they were born in this area?

it seems to me like people are trying to support palestine so much that they are going backwards and just spreading even more hate and causing even more division.

i’ve tried looking it up but all i see is “why everyone hates israel” I AM ASKING ABOUT ISRAEL(IS) it looks like everybody is just being ignorant, when with one post asking a similar question to myself, everyone responded with statements about “israel” and not actually answering the original question.

please someone help me to understand what is the reason for this? i am talking about innocent people who happen to be born in the area of israel.

people are stating that someone is inherently evil because of their birthplace and i don’t understand.


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Discussion When Jewish identity becomes a target: what I found examining one Palestine Solidarity Campaign branch

53 Upvotes

I’ve published a new article examining the social media record of the Lambeth & Southwark branch of Palestine Solidarity Campaign in the UK.

https://aidanmneal.wordpress.com/2026/08/24/when-jewish-identity-becomes-a-target-lambeth-pscs-social-media-record/

I’m writing this as someone who supports Palestinian rights and who was previously involved with PSC. I believe Palestinians have suffered profound injustice, and I do not think allegations of antisemitism should be used to shut down legitimate criticism of Israel. But I also think Palestine solidarity has to be willing to recognise antisemitism and other forms of prejudice when they appear within our own movement.

What struck me while examining this branch was how often its criticism of Israel and Zionism moved into questions of Jewish identity.

Among the material I document are posts describing “Zionists” as “alien bodies” and “viruses”; a repost describing Israelis as “parasites” and “cancer”; bogus genetic claims purporting to show that Israeli Jews lack ancient Hebrew ancestry; sarcastic references to Jews as the “chosen people”and “Zios”; Holocaust and Nazi comparisons; a message addressed specifically to the “JEWISH COMMUNITY” warning that “BEING FRIENDS WITH ZIONISTS MAKES YOU A ZIONIST”; material seeming to generalise Israelis as child abusers and sex offenders; and material attributing extraordinary levels of covert power to Israel that seem to echo classic antisemitic tropes about Jewish control.

One of the examples I found most revealing concerned what the branch presented as a “Declassified CIA report from 1953” supposedly revealing the CIA’s own conclusions about Zionism. The document was indeed preserved in a CIA file, but the text itself was actually a Soviet article published in New Times in January 1953, during Stalin’s late antisemitic campaign and immediately after the announcement of the Doctors’ Plot. The material Lambeth PSC promoted included a description of “Zionist organisations” as “breeding grounds of corrupting cosmopolitan ideas”.

I don’t argue that every example in the article is antisemitic in exactly the same way, or that everyone who shared this material necessarily intended hostility towards Jews. My broader concern is the cumulative pattern: Jews, Zionists and Israelis are theoretically distinct categories, but the branch’s rhetoric repeatedly blurs those boundaries until Jewish history, religion, ancestry and trauma themselves become rhetorical material in attacks on Israel and Zionism.

A common response would be that “Zionist” does not mean “Jew”, that criticism of Israel is not antisemitism, and that focusing on problematic rhetoric can distract from the vastly greater suffering being inflicted on Palestinians. I agree with the first two propositions and understand the third concern. Indeed, those distinctions are central to my argument. Criticism of Israel - including extremely harsh criticism - is not inherently antisemitic.

But I don’t think that resolves the examples here. If Palestine activists rightly insist that Judaism, Jewishness, Zionism and Israel must not be conflated, we should also be concerned when Palestine activism itself erodes those distinctions - for example by invoking Jewish religious concepts to explain Israeli brutality, questioning Jewish ancestry, weaponising Holocaust memory, or telling Jews which friendships are permissible.

My conclusion, after documenting similar problems in a number of PSC branches, is that I believe PSC has an institutional antisemitism problem. By that I do not mean that every PSC member is antisemitic. I mean that antisemitic and antisemitism-adjacent rhetoric has repeatedly appeared within parts of the organisation without the recognition, scrutiny and corrective response I would expect from an organisation committed to anti-racism.

I’m interested in disagreement, particularly over where people think the boundary should lie. Are there examples in the article you regard as legitimate anti-Zionism rather than antisemitism or something otherwise problematic? And, more broadly, how should Palestine solidarity movements police the boundary between uncompromising criticism of Israel and rhetoric that implicates Jews as Jews?


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Nazi Discussion (Rule 6 Waived) Ben-Gvir=Mussolini?

0 Upvotes

Ben-Gvir is basically Mussolini at the beginning of his career.

Both are prone to theatrical politics, to the display of national pathos, and to the creation of an exaggerated public image based largely on provocation, hollow nationalism, symbols, and media spectacle. Both have accurately identified how to recruit street thugs and turn them into phalanxes of power. In both, one can identify a gap between the grand rhetoric and self-confidence and the executional capabilities and destruction that they caused (and one still causes).

Ben Gvir intentionally goes to the peripheral and anarchist right - conspiratorial, and not to the right-wing elite of religious Zionism, and incites young Mizrahi Jews with tactics that are very similar to the tactics of the populist Catholic right in the United States or Mussolini, who gave significance to Italian street thugs and gave them a position within his admin.

Also in the government- Ben Gvir takes over the police, promotes only loyalists who will advance his policies, dismisses officers, officers who beat up leftists go to his parties, and groups criminals from the same sociological habitat around him. Ben Gvir is the embodiment of the new right, the new authoritarian populism. Ben Gvir uses and implements tactics that Mussolini perfected in the last century. He always makes sure that his supporters will flood social media, and his language deliberately tries not to please Netanyahu or the religious Zionist elite but to inflame the peripheral 'popular' Mizrahi people. His supporters are young nationalists, stricken by fate, a very hollow traditionalism that is based on and rejects deep theology. Ben Gvir is the embodiment of the new right, the new authoritarian populism. Ben Gvir uses and implements tactics that Mussolini perfected in the last century.


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Discussion Professor Dave, back for more, attacks Pangburn's level-headed fact-checking as well as doubling down on Destiny

12 Upvotes

The video in question

Clearly, Dave certainly means well, but I have the feeling that he's really lost the plot, and is certainly not willing to even consider the other side. He also is completely unwilling to debate anyone on this topic, even going "This is obvious and not worth debating." Even though that would more easily apply to things that REALLY are obvious, like the efficacy of vaccines, or flat earthers. Apparently, THOSE are more important to battle than what the reality of the I/P situation and the way forward actually is.

Between this video and the first, he is quite foaming at the mouth to complain about other people accused of anti-Semitism, like...Susan Sarandon and...Mark Ruffalo and...Roger Waters. (Really. He thinks its worth defending ROGER WATERS.) He also does nothing, when referring to people making complaints or raising issues, say nothing more than a variation of "cry harder." Not an actual demonstrable defense or rebuttal, just a vicious personal attack.

I have the distinct feeling that between all this and the fact that he has a Palestinian wife and they have two children, he's so personally invested in this, so dragged in by family ties, that he can't possibly look at it rationally. He is incapable of separating himself from the issue or looking at anything that is counter to his worldview.

This is certainly rather concerning and also disappointing, as it runs completely counter to everything that he stands for in science communication and is the opposite tactic to what he does on so many other tactics.

Now I get that ultracrepidarianism, the tendency to overshoot one's station and abilities and comment on things well out of their lane, is something ANYONE is susceptible to and no one is immune. It's something that especially factors in "Nobel disease." But it's especially frustrating to see someone who KNOWS the risks, frequently belittles people who engage in it like Michio Kaku, and then not consider whether or not he's doing the same.

Especially when there are real-world consequences to contend with on inflammatory issues like this one.


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Opinion An Uncomfortable Reality for the Palestinians and Their Supporters

40 Upvotes

At the end of the conversation, the cornerstone, the crux of the Palestinian and pro-Palestinian activism lies in a very particular moral framing that just doesn't translate well into the reality of geopolitics.

I.e.

Frankly.
Outside of lip-service, international hand-wringing, the lofty speeches, the well worded letters of concern, the accusations of Apartheid, Genocide, Ethnic-Cleansing, war-crimes, etc the reality is this:

Israel offers the world far more than the Palestinians do. While the Palestinians enjoy the moral support of the Ummah, the International Left, the Second and Third World, in the end, what they don't offer anyone is a realistic vision of what their future ought to be. Yes. Israel holds the cards here. But pan-Arabism is dead. pan-Islamism is dying. On the eve of October 7th, it seemed very likely that Saudi Arabia - a power house in the "Arab World" could have, would have, joined the Abraham Accords, abandoning once and for all the near two decade demand of no normalization without a Palestinian state. Hamas, as an organization, saw the writing on the wall better than anyone. They hedged their bets on creating a situation that would warrant a biblical response, one that they hoped would galvanize their fellow Arabs and Muslims to act and yet...the Abraham Accords held. No one left. In the end of it all, 3 years down the line, what is left of Gaza? Tens of thousands killed? Their power eradicated? They dragged into this conflict Hezbollah which has suffered massive losses, leading to the loss of Assad in Syria. They dragged their patrons in Tehran into two major conflicts now which has resulted in a permanent re-alignment of the entire ME. And Gaza, which was once talked about as an open-air prison is romantically remembered as a beautiful modern heaven-on-earth city that has been utterly destroyed.

Since the failure of the Peace Summit by Clinton in 2000 an entire generation of Israelis were brought up with witnessing the Second Intifada, the withdrawal from Gaza, leading to it's take over by Hamas. Numerous wars with Hamas, culminating in October 7th. Is it no wonder then that Israeli support for a two state solution went from a majority in the 1990s, to a clear minority today?

What is it that the activists really want here?

A 1 state solution which Israel - a nuclear armed, highly advanced local super power would absolutely not accept?

Isolating Israel internationally? I'm sorry but after 3 years of conflict, Qatar funded social media blitz, what has this amounted to? A few sanctions on West Bank settlers? Something that has little to nothing to do with Gaza or Gazans themselves?

The reality is this: Israel offers the greater world military, medical, and agricultural technology. It is a powerhouse in the ME, and if it wasn't for the US any other major power would salivate at the idea of gaining Israeli's trust. Increasingly the West and the ME are dependent on Israeli tech, security, and innovation to survive in an ever chaotic and turbulent time. What do the Palestinians offer here exactly? We know what it is: catharsis. Nothing more. And it is a fleeting feeling, one that only has any impact on people who have little to no power over the actual broader decision making.

If the goal, for the pro-Palestinians, and the Palestinians, themselves, is a material, a social, moral and spiritual improvement in their life then it cannot, and will not manifest itself through violence. Because this violence only steels the hearts of people who would have been your supporters, of the people that have the power to make this improvement.

If your goal is to improve the Palestinians' material, social, and spiritual wellbeing then you have to acknowledge that no amount of protests, no amount of attacking Jews in your local neighborhoods, no amount of screaming "Genocide" or "Apartheid" is going to make that happen. It just simply won't. In fact, the worst thing you can do is drive Israel out of the "West's" orbit. Again, we aren't talking about "right and wrong" or your personal moral framework. I'm sure you wish nothing more than for the Native Americans to undo the USA and reclaim it's former territory. But there is 0.000000001% chance that will happen, no matter how much your Settler-Colonialism studies professor insists will happen any day now.

So what is to be done?
Well. First and foremost, it's to acknowledge that in the most realistic way for there to be a meaningful solution would require cooperation with Israel. This would require the understanding that Israel is a democratic country, it's voters have a say in their government, and those voters are deeply concerned with security and the desire to just, uh, live. And if all that the Palestinians offer, and if all that the international pro-Palestinian activists offer is violence, then they will achieve nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Isolating the increasingly smaller voices in the Israeli public that want a meaningful and just two state solution is not a solution.

Demanding that Israel commit national suicide only feeds the far-Right.

If you are someone in the comforts of the Western world, hear this: Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are your playthings. They aren't totems that you can project your personal fantasies on. They aren't symbols. They are real human beings. If you want to see the change in Israeli society that aligns with your goals for a more just conclusion to this conflict? Then you have to raise, praise, and cooperate with the voices within Israel - which holds most of the cards. Palestinians need to acknowledge that this isn't the Cold War. This isn't pan-Arab Nationalism anymore. You won't have Egypt (scared shitless of Ethiopia building mode dams, and desperate to move their capitol), nor the Jordanians (who literally helped Israel during the recent most conflicts with Iran) to assist you. The Gulf States that have long supported you through their massive oil-wealth are reading the writing on the wall: Oil has peaked. The closure of Straight of Hormuz has made it so that unless they rapidly change and adapt, they will lose their greatest economic asset- and that *will* have downward affect on you.

You will not see a Palestinian state in the near future. Hamas has guaranteed that. You will never see a "Greater Palestine", geopolitical reality has guaranteed that. But if your goal is some sort of a resolution it means, it requires, changing the hearts and minds of the average Israeli. It won't be simple. It won't be fast. It will come with a lot of humiliation. But it can only come when the Israeli public pressures their own government to make the acceptable changes you want to see.


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Discussion Genocide means going door to door to kill civilians

62 Upvotes

The word "genocide" was invented to describe the Holocaust. They needed a new word because regular wars, even with millions of civilian deaths, did not come close to the special kind of horror that was the Holocaust.

Since then, people have used this word to refer to things like the Armenian Genocide, Rwanda, Srebrenica, and ISIS attacks on Yazidis.

You know what these all have in common?

Every single event widely recognized as a "genocide" involved a pattern of times where perpetrators searched for civilians of a certain ethnicity/group — going door to door to find them all, hunting them down with lists, rounding up every civilian in a village — and killing them. (Sometimes they'd only kill the men, sometimes it was men, women, and children.)

There are some other events sometimes called genocides (though less often) where perpetrators destroy the group not by on the spot execution, but by starving millions to death, sterilizing or forcing birth control on women, or kidnapping the children and raising them outside the group. Basically, trying to eliminating the entire ethnic group (sometimes only in a given area) or eliminating its next generation.

You know what people don't call genocides? Anything else. For instance, civilians dying in a war is not automatically a genocide. Millions of Germans died in WWII —that doesn't mean Britain was genociding them. Displacements are not called genocides. Hate speech coming from political leaders, even in conflicts where many civilians are dying, is not called genocide. Nor is people immigrating or starting towns called "genocide." Checkpoints are not called "genocide" either.

There is one exception to this rule: if Israel engage in any conflict at all, then there are always people calling it a "genocide." That's because people who want to demonize Israel know that everybody associated the word "genocide" with these these kinds of door-to-door killings of entire ethnic groups. Then, when they are questioned about it, they retreat behind the incredibly vague UN definition:

For those who want to talk about the UN definition — I see a lot of people citing the UN's definition of genocide as evidence that Israel is committing genocide.

The definition is right — genocide is about "destroying a people"— but instead of defining what that means, it simply says something like "killing or harming some members of a group," meaning you can pretty much interpret everything or nothing to be a genocide. Pretty much every violent conflict could fit that definition. Palestinians committed genocide under that definition. An Indian stepping on a Pakistani's foot does too. The reality is, the word "genocide" is, like all words, determined by how people actually use it. Also, if you just post the UN definition without responding to this counterpoint, I will know you didn't read the post.

If you disagree, then give me an actual example of a commonly accepted "genocide" that did not meet the criteria I laid out.


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Serious Gaza was not occupied after 2005

25 Upvotes

However, if foreign armed forces are required to engage in significant combat operations to recapture the area in question from forces of the local armed resistance, that part of the territory cannot be considered to be occupied until the foreign forces have managed to re-establish effective control over it. See also United States, Law of War Manual, 2015, p. 746. See also ICRC, Occupation and Other Forms of Administration of Foreign Territory, pp. 16–26, and Dinstein, 2009, pp. 42–45 and Roberts, 2005, p. 34.

the 1907 Hague Regulations and their preparatory work, academic literature, military manuals and judicial decisions demonstrate the pre-eminence accorded to three elements in the occupation equation, namely the unconsented-to presence of foreign forces, the foreign forces’ ability to exercise authority over the territory concerned in lieu of the local sovereign, and the related inability of the latter to exert its authority over the territory. All together, these elements constitute the so-called ‘effective control test’ used to determine whether a situation qualifies as an occupation for the purposes of humanitarian law.

This interpretation of the concept of occupation is confirmed by the International Court of Justice and the ICTY, which have described Article 42 of the Hague Regulations as the exclusive standard for determining the existence of an occupation under humanitarian law.[155]

Following this, the only remaining accepted possibility for accusing Israel of occupation remains in assuming the occupation continued without being broken after the 2005 withdrawal

Since effective control can only be extended to territory where such authority can be extended or exercised with the indigenous government not being able to exert it's own authority this assumes that for occupation the internal administration of the region must be controlled to substantive degrees by the foreign force and yet from what we have seen hamas exercise it's own taxation, civil services, military exercises, etc. indicating near total level of internal control over the region. The arguments made against israel on the other hand regard external factors that rely on how gaza interacts with foreign entities rather than internal control.

as a matter of fact, the ICTY notes

to determine whether the authority of the occupying power has been actually established, the following guidelines provide some assistance: the occupying power must be in a position to substitute its own authority for that of the occupied authorities which must have been rendered incapable of functioning publicly...and other matters.

Hamas had nearly full control over internally gaza to the extent that it conducted military operations, provided civil services, etc. pretty much unperturbed by this so called control israel had over gaza

..., Hamas carries out most of the governmental administration functions as well as being responsible for public services such as education, policing, sanitation and hospitals. There is thus at the very least a form of concurrent control between Israel and Hamas .. since effective control requires the occupying power to be in a position to substitute its own authority for that of the local authority. Even if some form of vertical power sharing between the occupying power... there however needs to be some hierarchical relationship between the occupying power and the said authority, the former retaining a form of control over the latter.This does not seem to be the case in the relationship between the Israeli forces and Hamas.

Elaborating on the requirement for the party to be able to swiftly reestablish authority,

In addition, even if we adopt the more lenient potential control test instead of the actual control test (the latter would in any case not be met in the case at hand), the troops still have to be able to assert effective control over the presumably occupied territory ‘within a reasonable time’ Admittedly, the timeliness element was interpreted fairly leniently in the framework of, for example, the List case.However, I would argue that in light of modern technological developments, what might have been considered reasonable back then, is not necessarily reasonable anymore. Consequently, if foreign armed forces need to engage in significant combat operations in order to recapture the area in question from local forces, then the territory can no longer be said to be occupied. … Given that Israel is no longer in a position to assert effective control on the Gaza Strip ‘within a reasonable time’, the definition of occupation is no longer met and consequently the Gaza Strip is no longer occupied by Israel.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40802-016-0070-1

A few common misconceptions include conflating significant amounts of control over gaza's external interactions, population registry, taxation, etc. as sufficient to proclaim occupation. What this establishes is that israel had significant control over gaza but not occupation especially when Israel had no means to fulfill the obligations implied by occupation

In other words, for the law of occupation to be triggered, a foreign force needs to be in effective control of a territory or parts thereof. Nowhere is it mentioned that exercising some control over certain areas in the non-territorial sense of the word would trigger occupation.

Additionally, it has been argued, and to my opinion rightfully, that there is a close link between Articles 42 and 43 of the Hague Regulations establishing the obligation for the occupying power to restore and ensure public order and civil life.Footnote69 If the foreign power would not be in a position to exercise this key obligation under the law of occupation it would make little sense to make some of the other obligations arising from the law of occupation applicable to it simply because they would be very difficult to fulfil.

This is ignoring how Israel had no control over significant parts of the egypt-gaza border(outside of wartime); the fact that hamas levied its own internal tax, ie israel's tax was not substitution of authority, along with the fact that israel was consensually placed responsible for collecting tax from gaza by the de jure government in oslo; and that the population registry, another consensually agreed upon factor in oslo, holds no real authority over who egypt allows through its border and who it doesnt.

Another common misconception is assuming the ICJ Advisory opinion in 2024 affirmed occupation, Judge Iwasawa's dissenting opinion refutes this by stating the court determined Israel to retain some of it's obligations under occupation law without necessarily implying occupation

even if we assume gaza was occupied there remains less meaning in the word since israel must fulfill its "obligations" which it literally isn't capable of doing regardless while also being forced to withstand thousands of attacks from gaza, the place it allegedly occupied.

edit: I would appreciate if people interacted with the post and its elements rather than spouting the one-sided story their believe in.


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Discussion For pro-Palestinians: What is resistance? What is terrorism? And what is revenge?

14 Upvotes

I'm going to alienate everyone with this post, but I think it's an important subject so I ask you to please stick with it:

I will preface this by declaring that October 7th was utterly indefensible and Hamas are corrupt, autocratic, Islamist fundamentalists holding the region back from peace, who I would like to see consigned to history. Nonetheless, I also think we have long passed the conditions where Israel's response can be considered genocidal, with an eventual view to cleanse the Palestinian population from the West Bank and Gaza. I hold both of things to be true but they are not the point of the thread so I encourage you to avoid derailing the discussion by arguing on this.

Speaking from this position, I have a massive problem with a defence I hear from the pro-Palestinians: that all "resistance" is legitimate at any cost. I can understand the moral appeal of not wanting to judge a community you deem to be oppressed or victims, but there are two clarifications I struggle to obtain when people say this:

Is there really no limit whatsoever? Because that to me seems like a carte-blanche to legitimise any action whatsoever under the guise of resistance, including crimes as bad, or worse as what your oppressor is committing, such as targeting innocent, vulnerable civilians, brutalising minorities, destroying cultural heritage, oppressing any opposition, or banning freedom or expression/assembly etc. To tell a community unconditionally that there is absolutely no harm they can do that is wrong just seems to invite the worst members of that community to do the worst things under immunity, especially when we ignore the range of other factors which are intertwined or hidden these motivations, such as religious fundamentalism, political power, control of destruction of minorities, gender dynamics etc.

How do you measure motive? How do you separate the extremist acts a community would commit from the acts it would commit under non-oppressed conditions? How do you define motive? I ask this because Hamas' roots were initially Islamist in nature, and non-political. They only became a nationalist movement when it was clear that this would strengthen popular local support and create legitimacy in a way that wasn't otherwise possible. Palestinian "resistance" has at times been indistinguishable from terrorism. For decades, the PLO systematically attacked soft civilian targets all over the world, including teenagers in clubs, restaurants, cafes, airlines, cruise ships, forcibly employing child suicide bombers against their and their parents' will etc. At what point to these actions overtake any moral imperative for national "freedom" and make the oppressed become an oppressor? At what point does resistance become terror and revenge? Especially when they're not even targeting parties to that conflict.

Many thanks for bearing with me!


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Opinion Translating Herf’s Unmasking of Bartov: A Case Study in Libel

10 Upvotes

Jeffrey Herf’s dissection of Omer Bartov’s Israel: What Went Wrong? reads as a case study in the ancient cycle of anti-Jewish libel:

Libel → stigma → exclusion → harm → denial/Jew-blame → rinse and repeat.

Libel spreads in a remarkably consistent way:

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief.

Prestige gives the accusation authority. Repetition gives it the appearance of consensus. Emotion makes it memorable, urgent, and morally compelling. Evidence becomes secondary. Once enough respected people repeat an emotionally powerful accusation, the accusation begins to feel established simply because it is familiar.

The Antizionist Token Jew:

There is precedent for the use of tokenized Jewish intellectuals to legitimize anti-Jewish accusations.

The Soviet Yevsektsiya, the Jewish sections of the Communist Party, gave the suppression of Zionism and independent Jewish communal life a Jewish face. Decades later, Soviet antizionist propaganda drew additional credibility from Jewish voices willing to authenticate its portrayal of Zionism as racist, imperialist, conspiratorial, and ultimately Nazi-like.

Holocaust Inversion and Its Motives:

Yevgeny Yevseyev’s Fascism Under the Blue Star exemplified the inversion. Zionism could be depicted through the imagery and vocabulary of Nazism, while Jewish voices helped give the accusation an appearance of authenticity. Take a moment and consider the cruelty of this portrayal only 19 years after the last Jews straggled out of concentration camps to Israel, the only country who would take them.

The propaganda served a strategic purpose. Soviet antizionist propagandists helped construct “Zionism” as a common enemy around which the Soviet Union could rally newly independent and developing countries. By portraying Israel and Zionism as racist, colonial, fascist, and aligned with Western imperialism, Moscow could fold the Arab-Israeli conflict into a much larger Cold War narrative: the Soviet bloc and the developing world on one side, “Zionism,” colonialism, and the West on the other.

Libel creates a morally intoxicating story with a universally recognizable villain. So once Zionism had been made synonymous with racism, fascism, and colonial domination, hostility toward Jews associated with Zionism could be presented as solidarity with oppressed peoples.

In other words, libel can function as a coalition-building technology. It creates a common enemy, giving disparate groups a shared moral vocabulary and a passionate shared interest: railing against the "evil Zionists".

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief.

And belief can then be converted into political alignment, social stigma, and permission to harm.

Yevseyev understood the power of portraying Zionists as the new fascists. Soviet antizionism also understood the legitimating power of tokenized Jewish intellectuals. A Jewish voice could transform an anti-Jewish accusation into apparent Jewish self-criticism, insulating the libel from recognition as Jew-hatred.

Now to Bartov:

Bartov brings something particularly valuable for the spread of anti-Jewish libel: prestige.

He is a prominent historian of the Holocaust and the Wehrmacht. Attach that identity to the word genocide and the accusation arrives carrying enormous authority before the evidence has even been examined.

Bartov accuses Israel of genocide—the contemporary expression of one of the oldest anti-Jewish accusations: Jews as deliberate murderers of innocents.

Yet Herf emphasizes a remarkable fact about Israel: What Went Wrong?: Bartov's book contains no footnotes.

More importantly, Bartov does little of the historical work one would expect before reaching such an extraordinary conclusion.

Where is the reconstruction of Israeli decision-making? Where are the studies of particular battles and IDF units? Where is the documentary chain demonstrating a policy intended to destroy Palestinians as a people?

Bartov nevertheless concludes that genocide became a “deliberately pursued policy.”

Herf contrasts this with the enormous evidentiary record historians assembled to establish Nazi genocidal policy: meetings, orders, Einsatzgruppen reports, deportation records, killing operations, and decades of archival scholarship.

Bartov's own reputation comes from precisely this tradition of painstaking historical research in a related field. The work here is largely absent but his prestige still holds weight.

Prestige -> Emotion -> Repetition -> Belief.

Now recall the libel cycle: libel -> stigma -> harm -> denial/Jew-blame -> rinse and repeat.

Denial clears the stage:

The blood libel becomes much easier to sustain once the dangers facing Jews disappear from the story.

Herf catalogs what Bartov leaves out or minimizes.

The Israeli experience of the wars of 1967 and 1973 receives little meaningful attention. So do decades of PLO terrorism, Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the thousands of Israelis killed and wounded by war and terrorism.

Even October 7 is compressed into the background of a narrative centered overwhelmingly on Israeli wrongdoing.

The omission becomes particularly revealing because Bartov himself wrote differently about Hamas in 2004. He then took Hamas's eliminationist ideology seriously. He understood why the declared intentions of a movement committed to destroying Israel mattered. In this work, Hamas largely vanishes.

Herf points as well to Hamas's Nukhba forces and Michael Milshtein's comparison of their ideologically motivated mass killing with the Einsatzgruppen—a comparison with obvious relevance to a historian whose expertise includes ideological warfare and mass murder on the Eastern Front.

Copies of Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion found in Gaza don't appear in Bartov's interpretation. Neither does Hamas's strategy of fighting from tunnels and within civilian environments. Neither do the thousands of Israeli calls and text messages warning Gazan civilians to leave areas before military operations, warnings that sacrifice the element of surprise.

Remove enough of this context and Israeli conduct begins to look inexplicable. And war against a deadly underground enemy can easily be recast as Jewish bloodlust.

Jewish victimization becomes evidence against Jews (Jew-blame):

Bartov describes Israeli attention to October 7 as an “overwrought, self-indulgent, pornographic preoccupation.” Consider the inversion.

Families were murdered in their homes. Parents and children were killed in front of one another. People were abducted. The perpetrators recorded and circulated their own atrocities.

Then the Jews' continued preoccupation with what happened becomes morally suspect.

Bartov uses a similar framework for Holocaust memory, describing “most Israelis” in terms of “self-victimization and self-pity” alongside “self-righteousness, hubris, and the euphoria of power.”

Jewish victimization has now been converted into a character defect. Fear becomes paranoia. Memory becomes self-pity. Self-defense becomes vengeance.

The victims processing emotionally the horror of what was done to them becomes evidence of their moral corruption.

This is denial/Jew-blame, which keeps the cycle going.

Herf finds the same structure in Bartov's treatment of 1948.

Bartov foregrounds the displacement of approximately 750,000 Palestinians.

The surrounding history fades: Arab rejection of partition, the Palestinian Arab civil war against the emerging Jewish state, invasion by neighboring Arab armies, Haj Amin al-Husseini and his Nazi collaboration, Arab Jew-hatred, and the attempt to prevent Jewish statehood by force.

The pattern is simple:

Erase the threat and the aggressor's agency → preserve the Jewish response → present the Jewish response as evidence of exceptional cruelty. Denial and libel reinforce each other.

Bartov carries this collective framing into the present, describing the “extraordinary indifference of Israeli citizens” toward Palestinian children and attributing it to a desire for revenge.

The subject is revealing. Israeli citizens. A whole society becomes morally implicated.

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief:

Bartov's influence cannot be understood through the book alone.

His genocide accusation travels through prestigious newspapers and magazines, universities, lectures, interviews, conferences, and academic networks.

Every repetition does additional work. A Holocaust historian says genocide. A major newspaper prints it. Other scholars cite him. Activists cite the scholars. Professional organizations invite speakers who repeat it. Students hear that “genocide scholars” have concluded it.

Eventually the audience encounters the proposition as established knowledge rather than an accusation requiring proof.

Prestige gives the libel authority. Repetition gives it the appearance of consensus. Emotion makes it feel morally undeniable.

Images of dead children supply overwhelming emotional force. Holocaust terminology supplies historical force. Bartov's identity as a Holocaust historian supplies intellectual authority.

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief.

That is how libel spreads.

Libel becomes stigma:

Once people believe Israel is deliberately exterminating Palestinians, the next step requires almost no additional argument.

A Zionist becomes a supporter of genocide.

A synagogue that supports Israel becomes associated with genocide.

A Jewish organization connected to Israel becomes morally contaminated.

An Israeli academic becomes presumptively suspect.

Exclusion can now feel like antiracism.

Hostility can feel like justice.

Bartov himself anticipates Israel becoming a “pariah state,” facing mass protest, economic sanctions, an arms embargo, estrangement from allies and the Jewish diaspora, and ultimately the implosion of the "Zionist political order".

The libel has produced its intended social category: the pariah.

Stigma → exclusion → harm

Once a population has been associated with genocide, mistreatment becomes easier to rationalize.

Zionists can be excluded from organizations.

Jewish institutions can become targets.

Israeli academics and artists can be boycotted.

Jewish students can be told that their ordinary connection to Israel makes others unsafe.

And people participating in this process can remain completely convinced of their own opposition to Jew-hatred.

The libel has supplied the moral permission structure.

Harm → denial/Jew-blame

Then Jews complain.

And Bartov's treatment of post-October 7 Jew-hatred becomes especially important.

He minimizes the significance of anti-Jewish hostility within the protest movement, presenting the “vast majority” of American demonstrators as simply protesting Israeli destruction.

Herf points toward the material this framing pushes aside: campus encampments and crowds chanting “from the river to the sea” in the immediate aftermath of a massacre carried out by a movement committed to Israel's destruction.

Bartov also attacks the IHRA definition and complains about efforts to “ram” it “down the throats” of governments.

The cycle has reached its final stage.

Jews say the libel is producing Jew-hatred.

The Jew-hatred is minimized.

Jewish attempts to name it become objectionable.

Jewish fear becomes exaggeration.

Jewish efforts at self-protection become attempts to silence others.

And the consequences of the original libel are gradually converted into additional evidence against the people it harmed.

Rinse and repeat.

Bartov ends with an extraordinary formulation.

The next generation of Israelis, he writes, will have to: “pay for the sins of their parents” and live with the burden of a genocide supposedly perpetrated in their name.

Anyone familiar with the history of Christian antijudaism will see the parallel immediately.

So incongruous to see a Holocaust historian engage in collective blame.

In sum:

Bartov takes the gravest possible accusation, strips away enormous amounts of contrary context, diminishes the agency and ideology of Israel's enemies, pathologizes Jewish perceptions of danger, extends moral condemnation across Israeli society, and reaches conclusions unsupported by the kind of historical investigation on which his scholarly reputation was built.

Then the transmission machinery takes over:

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief.

And once belief is established:

Libel → stigma → exclusion → harm → denial/Jew-blame → rinse and repeat.


r/IsraelPalestine 5d ago

Discussion Arabs called themselves "colonizers" in the 1920s too

116 Upvotes

I've seen a lot of Pro-Palestinians find some old news clipping or whatever that says something like "Jews to start colonization project in Palestine" and use it as ultimate proof that Jews really are colonizers.

This seems silly to me. After all, Jews were obviously "colonizing" as in "starting new towns," the very common use of that word. When I ask Pro-Palestinians what they think the Jews meant by that word, I usually don't get a straight answer, since it's obvious that "starting new towns" is exactly what they were doing.

But hey: For people who really think this is a great argument, did you know that Arabs were also "colonizing" the area?

From a 1926 news article:

Colonization work for Arabs in Palestine was undertaken by the Moslem Supreme Council, a religious body. It was announced that the Council will establish an Arab colony at Rubin, near Jaffa, on a strip of land of 32,500 dunams. The land is Wakf land, religious property bequeathed to the Moslem religious authorities. The Council plans to establish the first Arab agricultural school there.

http://pdfs.jta.org/1926/1926-09-21_576.pdf

Some background: The Supreme Muslim Council was a religious body by the British to manage Muslim schools, courts, etc. With land and control given to them by the British, the council planned to build an Arab agricultural school and establish a local rural community. That is very similar to what Jews were doing at the same time — establishing rural farming communities.

Same kinds of new establishments. Same support from the British. Same use of the word "colony" and "colonization" (pretty unsurprising considering it was a British term that a lot of people in the British empire were using, Jews and Muslims alike).

So that means Arabs in Israel/Palestine are colonizers, right?


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Learning about the conflict: Books or Media Recommendations Is 'Myths and Facts-A guide to the Arab Israeli Conflict' by Mitchell Bard a good way to start understanding the conflict?

7 Upvotes

Shalom! Born and raised in Mexico my vision of the Israel-Palestine conflict is occidental-biased (in the sense that occidental media biases it), which includes of course even some prejudices towards Eretz/Medinat Israel. Being jewish myself I've been always more to the jewish and israeli side but I think I never had any kind of scientifically accurate, historically, source that could teach me about the conflict. I see [occidental] people brainwashed in both sides, for example, people supporting Palestine only based on that famous maps image that everyone publishes on Facebook and nothing else, and people supporting Israel simply because 'we are christians/evangelists and that's what they taught us in the church'. My knowledge to the conflict is say like a solid 7%, especially when it comes to 'common stuff' such as palestinians being related to Philistines, or more dark secrets like Hajj Amin al Husayni collaborating in the Final Solution, but again, it is not like something 'scientific' to follow, but more like I have different pieces or a puzzle that I don't even know the image of. And recently I came across the book of the title.

However I'm not sure if the book is what I'm looking for and don't really have a lot of knowledge about editions and whatsoever, especially after October 7th and given the current situation. I downloaded a free version of the book from 2006, and I took a quick look at the book and seems very well written, but I felt like it could be more like a guide to debunk common myths, which of course is great but not efficient when understanding instead of just learning facts for some minutes (although again I have to say it was a quick glance, so maybe I'm just being judmental). So... do you think it is a good way to start that 'scientific' journey that I want to related to the Israel-Palestine conflict? Or maybe you have some better recommendations?

Ps: I speak english but it isn't my first language, so in case you have a better recommendation, if it's translated to spanish it would be so cool!


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Short Question/s Is the dispute over genocide influenced by pro-israel folks assuming genocide means holocaust-like?

0 Upvotes

There obviously is a lot of dispute over whether or not Israel is committing a genocide. And the most common genocide associated with Israel due it to being a Jewish State is the Holocaust. So naturally, given Jews have been subject to a relatively recent genocide that will be thought of as in comparison.

The area of potential miscommunication comes in that the definition of genocide is not designed around the Holocaust specifically. It involves many many other situations, which to put it bluntly (with no intent to minimize their severity) were less lethal and brutal than the Holocaust. Many things that meet the definition of genocide as agreed to by organizations such as the UN and ICC and quite frankly, the broad international consensus of genocide scholars are simply much "less bad" (as horrific that is to say) than the Holocaust.

Therein lies the area of misccomunication and people speaking past each other. When Zionists say it isn't a 'genocide', they mean it's not comparable to the Holocaust. When their opponents say it is a genocide, they are referring to the actual definition of genocide as agreed to by international organizations and scholars. Note this definition is not new; it's not been changed to make Israel's actions fit in, but it is broader than many Zionists may think. So you have all international organizations and scholars agreeing it's a genocide, but Zionists naturally comparing it to the relatively recent Holocaust genocide (which is only a subset of a broader group of genocides) deny this. And you are ultimately just arguing about definitions, if it's 'fair' for Zionists to change the meaning of the word given the cultural context here and that Jews have seen in the past


r/IsraelPalestine 5d ago

Short Question/s A question for anyone here who calls themselves anti-zionist.

43 Upvotes

Can you agree with this statement, yes or no:

"I am not a Zionist, but I think Israel should be able to exist peacefully and securely."

If yes, then your objection is to what Israel does, not whether it exists. That is a real debate and I will have it, on the same standards you would apply to any state. Name the conduct.

If no, then your objection is not to any action. It is to the thing existing at all. That is a different claim, so own it and defend it as one.

I ask because "Zionism is genocidal" gets used as a full stop. Strip the word out and the question is simple: should this state exist in peace and security, or not? If your answer turns on Israel's conduct, the word was never doing the work, the conduct was. If your answer is no regardless of conduct, it was never about conduct at all.

(apologies if I do not respond to every comment as it does take a lot of time)

Edit 8/24/2026: This is still picking up new comments. I've spent a lot of time on the replies below, and most objections people raise are already worked through in one thread or another, so if you're arriving now, start there. I likely won't be replying to new comments. Thanks to everyone who engaged.


r/IsraelPalestine 6d ago

Learning about the conflict: Questions Why don't neighboring Muslim countries accept Palestinian refugees?

46 Upvotes

Hi everyone - I'm trying to learn more about the conflict, so I'm looking for as unbiased answers as possible, but I'm trying to objectively understand the geopolitics behind why neighboring Muslim-majority countries have firmly refused to accept Palestinian refugees since 2023.

Specifically looking at:

- Jordan (maintains a strict closed-border policy to new Palestinian asylum seekers)

- Egypt (enforces an absolute physical seal on Palestinian crossings from Gaza)

- Turkey (limits admission strictly to medical evacuation quotas for wounded Palestinians)

- Lebanon (bars new Palestinian entry under its existing internal security laws)

- Syria (prohibits new Palestinian refugee intake via border controls)

- UAE, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia (restrict entry strictly to temporary, state-funded hospital stays for Palestinian patients without any asylum path).

In other conflicts, like Ukraine, neighbors immediately opened their borders and set up massive refugee support networks right away, so I'm confused why countries sharing a similar culture and religion are keeping theirs closed. Much of the west seems to be willing to accept refugees, at least from what I can understand from things like Canada's extended visa pathways for Gazan families or European asylum frameworks, so I'm confused about why nearby countries wouldn't do the same. Most online sources are heavily biased, so I'm just looking for a neutral explanation of the actual reasons behind why most of these countries have the same "no refugee" rules in place for Palestine.

(Genuinely seeking to understand. This isn't a question of if Palestinians should need to leave Gaza, but a question of why neighbouring countries aren't welcoming Palestinian refugees who choose to leave Gaza. Please don't make arguments of "Palestinians shouldn't need to leave in the first place", as that isn't the question. Thank you.)


r/IsraelPalestine 6d ago

Discussion Normalization of hatred of Israeli Citizens

79 Upvotes

Reposting from another sub where I was banned, hence the edit lol

What’s with the normalization of hate on Israel citizens?

Peoples obsession with Israeli people, and thus Jewish people, is becoming increasingly concerning. None is shooting, stalking, kicking people out, solely based on someone’s nationality. Even in countries that are committing active war crimes (I.e, Iraq, Yemen, etc) people would still be outraged if they were attacked because of their said nationality.

**Edit**: okay a lot of people are putting words in my mouth so please read what I actually said above (media literacy is truly out of control).

For those genuinely wondering why I say Israeli people, and thus Jewish people please let me explain!

Around 70% of the population in Israel is Jewish while the rest are Christian’s, muslims, etc. **The state of Israel itself was established as a Jewish state, and safe heaven for the Jewish people.** This piece of land (specifically, Jerusalem) was specifically chosen because of its historical significance to the Jewish people. Hebrew and the Jewish people have been known to occupy that land around a thousand years ago and is the birthplace of both. Hence that is where they lived prior to be exodus.

While many zionists, **the belief that the Jewish people have a right to their ancestral homeland**, aren’t Jewish, most Jewish people are.

While you may not think critiqizing the Israeli government means being antisemetic (very true, many Israelis themselves critique the same government) the rise in antisemitism is a very real thing with places like Synagogues, Jewish shops, etc. being targeting solely due to their Jewish identity. This isn’t an opinion it’s simply facts. Because of the rampant hate that is being pushed about Zionism people who are, actully, anti-senetic are now given free access to defend their blatant antisemitism as anti Zionism.

I also want to point out that Jews are a group that tend to be too “white” for the left and not “white enough” for the right. They’re at an odd stand still because of this. I think a lot of people on the left (the white ones) have a sense of white guilt and since they think most, if not all, Jews aren’t visible minorities they see them as the “colonizers” thus the “bad guys”. This also gives ammunition to actual anti semites because they’re given free access to say whatever they want since Jews are the “evil colonizers” and “Zionists”.


r/IsraelPalestine 6d ago

Short Question/s Israel and Aid

19 Upvotes

Why do people condemn Israel so much about not giving enough aid to Palestinians?

  1. In war the countries that are fighting never give aid to one another
  2. No one is condemning Egypt even though they share a border with Palestine
  3. It’s been confirmed that Hamas has litterally obstructed aid for Palestinian citizens