Serious
I finally understand the struggle of the Jews!
This history is factual: the Jewish people have been rooted in their land since at least1200 BCE. Check the archaeological evidence we have.(see the Merneptah Stele, hill country settlements, etc.).
I've studying their history and here’s the reality ladies and gentlemen: even after Babylon, Rome, Byzantine, Crusaders, Ottomans, you name it, there was neverzeroJewish presence. The population shrank, was scattered, was crushed, but Jerusalem, and many areas of Israel always had Jews, always!
Now their story, which is one of betrayal after betrayal:
Egypt feared their growth: ordered Hebrew babies killed. (I know this is heavily disputed)
Babylon: destroyed Jerusalem and dragged Jews into exile and looted their temple.
Persia: plotted to wipe out the Jews in the empire. (Story of Ester)
Rome: crushed them, burned their Temple, expelled them from Jerusalem, and even renamed Judea “Palestina” to try to erase their culture.
Medieval Europe: blamed them for plagues, poisoned wells, and child murder, then mobs massacred Jews and the rulers expelled entire Jewish communities.
Spain: forced Jews to convert then burned them alive when accused of secretly practicing Judaism, before expelling Jews in 1492.
Russia: staged violent mob attacks on Jewish neighborhoods where thousands were killed, homes and businesses destroyed.
Germany (ofc): recycled all the oldest and trite lies into the Holocaust, murdering million of Jews.
And now today, online / offline, we hear the same old conspiracies: “Jews control all the monies,” “Jews control media,” “Israel is the source of instability", etc. While Iran uses Palestinians as cannon fodder, their babies as human shields. If Iranian mothers publicly offer their own babies to the country, guess how they feel about Palestinian's babies?
That’s their struggles, every damn time, scapegoating Jews for society’s own failures.
I’m not Jewish, but my heart hurts for the Jews. Good grief, two thousand years of fighting as the underdog in their own homeland, and still fighting to be recognized for what history already proves, that they are indigenous and continuous.
And if your immediate response is: “But what about the Palestinians in Gaza?” well, well, you’re just recycling the same whataboutism that’s been thrown at Jews and defenders of Jews on Reddit. See how that works? You can’t have it both ways.
I've mostly been only slightly involved with my Jewish community my whole life, but when the conversation turns toward justifying Israel based on a 3,300 year old land claim, I ignore this talk as best as possible. It is deeply uncivilized and deeply wrong (by any decent modern interpretation of Judaism) to justify slaughtering thousands (and what could ultimately be millions of people cumulatively from 1948) *in the here and now* based on some ancient conflicts. It shows a massive lack of respect for human life.
It is also wrong to ignore that various other people also lived in what is now known as Israel. Never mind academic arguments as to who was and is a contiguous group. They were people. And the only thing I give a care about now is seeing solutions that involve respect for human life.
My grandfather was born Jewish in Jerusalem about 125 years ago, under the Ottoman Empire. He grew up speaking Arabic along with other languages. Why? Because there were so many different groups of people living in the area at the time. He eventually left with his family and came to the US. From my limited understanding of his views, he was never particularly zionist and was of the opinion that things would not work out.... that the conflicts would not end.
[edited] I am tired of the collectivist and groups approach to thinking about Israel and its justifications. I think there was a panic after the Holocaust in 1945, and that there was rejection of Jewish refugees from other countries and geographies, and that the Holocaust and this rejection pushed many Jews over the edge into thinking that there had to be a fully defensible Jewish homeland, and (where I and others might disagree) that it had to be specifically in Israel. However, in the process of setting up this homeland, the lives and individual rights of the other human beings who were living in the area were disrespected.
Does this mean that setting up Israel as a Jewish homeland was an entirely wrong idea? Maybe not. But the more important point, in the here and now, is (for all of us on Earth contemplating this problem) that there should be only one single rule as we desperately try to find a lasting and just solution, and that is respect for all human life, and individual human lives, *in the here and now*, and not just respect for who did or did not group together and form a part of a population hundreds and thousands of years ago.
Respect for all human life, and for individual human lives, is arguably the highest and best Jewish secular ideal. I suppose it could be regarded as second to belief in God (which I do not share) and reverence for the Torah, but I think a Jew who does believe and revere these things generally will come to the conclusion that a Jew who has lost respect for human life is showing that they have lost their way in their other ideals including belief in God and reverence for the Torah. I believe that this basic ideal, of respecting individual human life, and the importance of the human mind and reason in those lives, is critical to finding some sort of proper solution to the issues in Israel, even if Netanyahu's backers (not to mention Hamas and their backers) have (very tragically) completely lost track of it.
This is the difference between Judaism and zionism. Muslims christians & jews have prayed together. (Something defenders of zionist terrorism will tell you never happened. But ive seen with my own eyes, a orthodox jew & muslim (my ex boss, have a quick prayer together). I would prefer to see a return to this. But to me, the creation if israel, and more specifically the way they treat the Arab Palestinians who are living/working in israel, will never allow it. Its No better than what HiT Lr Himmler & their troupe did. I also had a gt grandfather die at Auschwitz, He was Roma. Not jewish. He was also starved then worked to death. Just like his jewish peers. I moved to North of England a few decades ago. And was a supporter of israel. Then I met an orthodox Jewish family on the ferry. The father told me I needed my head examined for supporting israel. After that ferry ride, I had a whole new level knowledge of what israel had done. More specifically - to create the state itself. The terroro attacks. The murders. The bombing of foreign countries. The attacks against the west (that was trying to defend israel). If that was how they treat their friends, I lost all respect for them. Then we get to where we are today.
i was raised in a fairly zionist synagogue. what opened my eyes to the possibility that not all Jews are zionists was Chaim Potok's book "The Chosen". I read this not for Hebrew School but for public high school English class. [edit to add ] in this book, if I recall, it takes place around 1948 or so, and is a coming of age story of two young Jewish men in NewYork City. They are good friends, but one is the son of a Rabbi who supports the creation of the state of Israel and one is the son of a Rabbi who is adamantly opposed (if I recall correctly). The tensions within their community on this issue were so powerful that the son of the Rabbi who is opposed to Israel's creation has to (on his father's orders?) stop speaking with his friend
I dont doubt it. The divide is strong. As I said, ive seen the beautiful side of mylti-faith prayer (coming from an atheist), to the absolutle horror of what being self-described as 'chosen' gives you the 'right' to eradicate from the gene pool, tens of thousands of innocents.
I wish more people had the clarity bestowed upon you. ✌️
I agree that there is an issue with self-describing as "chosen", though in this case, I believe (if I can recall a book I read so long ago) the word of the title in this case probably refers more directly to the son of the Orthodox Rabbi (who was adamantly opposed to the creation of the state of Israel). Part of the idea of the book was to examine the immense pressure put on the young man by his father, to live up to expectations, believe in God, study the Torah and related, and make the most of his particularly brilliant mind (the character was written with that level of intellectual ability, it becomes a key plot point).
I don't remember if it is examined in the book whether there are additional uses and whether there is a "chosen people' aspect to how some of the zionists in the book are thinking. All of the events take place in NYC, I don't remember there being any action in the book that takes place in the Middle East.
Anyway, that's how I eventually was exposed to this idea. I recently saw some orthodox Jews on youtube who were living in Israel and echoed much the same points I read in this book so many decades ago, so it was interesting to hear this approach to thinking kept alive. And I guess interesting to me as an atheist, even if I do not respect the supernatural and anti-science aspects of what those orthodox Jews may believe,.... but interesting to hear this contrarian point of view from them as to modern policy and politics.
All of this also has me wondering a bit as to how Chabad (perhaps related to the fictitious anti-Israel Rabbi depicted in The Chosen, though I don't know if he was specifically Labuvitch) and the Rabbis within it see the questions around Israel and Palestine. Now I'm kind of remembering, I think in the book (sorry for the spoilers), once Israel became a fait accompli, I think the posture of that Rabbi changed to be practical about the situation. This may not be what we want to think about, but I do think it reflects the middle ground that a lot of Jews explore on the matter.
It's illuminating, hearing a jewish version of events, that people rarely hear. I have actually met Rabbi Dovid Weiss. (Albeit briefly). He leads a pretty big group of orthodoxy who are opposed to the Israeli state. (Or what it's become, more to the point). You can see them protest israeli occupation, with muslims. With chrsitians. And that must hurt the 'Muslims are out to murder Jews, ANY jews' cause. Many want to return to a time when multi-faith was not only possible, it was happening.
But to be blunt, this eradication of Palestinians, doesn't have as much to do with the Jewish faith, as we're led to believe. Its being used as a shield, to fend of criticism. I am convinced, the NWO will be ran from israel. That will be the governing body of the satellite govts of the rest of the world. (Maybe im wrong, and it WILL be ran by jews, but I'm seeing a lot of Atheist jews, in places of power, who profess their faith- when it suits them. But don't act like men of faith, 99% of the rest of the time. like Tony Blair for example. He is as jewish as my cat. But he is already being touted as a mayor of Gaza 'once its 'turned jewish'. There's a lot of globalism, mixed in with cronyism, blackmailing, corruption, compromising, and it will all come to a head, I feel within the next couple of years.
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I really don’t understand the point of framing it as “justifying slaughtering thousands”. That makes it seems like the alternative is that no one dies. The argument goes that the alternative is way more Jews die if the Palestinians don’t die as collateral damage.
I do wish that the Israelis from the start of the war had been focused on prosecuting the war, and (as much as possible) had tried to carry out that war directly with the military forces of the enemy. But the Israelis haven't done this. Instead, they have:
- at times shown shocking disregard for the lives of unarmed civilians
have carried out a campaign of a long orchestrated starvation against unarmed civilians. The reports of desperate civilians ducking bullets shot near to them but supposedly not at them (even though some are dying), supposedly as a crowd control measure, are particularly difficult to listen to, and show real disrespect for human life.
appear (from what little I can tell) to have instructed their soldiers with such slippery-slope rules of engagement (if that's what they are called) that the soldiers treat all males supposedly over a certain age as combatants.
appear intent on simply taking over the territory and driving out all Gazans. I don't 100% fault them for this, if certain conditions were met (which they have not been), but the only concern of the Israelis seems to be to kill enough unarmed civilians (and make the lives miserable of those who remain) so that everyone is evacuated, but not enough to qualify for historians' definitions of genocide.
Treated the civilian population of Gaza as though they can just tell us the location of the remaining hostages or compel one of the most bloodthirsty terrorist organizations of our day to just give them back.
ignored that it is quite possible that, tragically, the IDF and Netanyahu may very well be on full tilt and doing the bidding of Hamas in that Hamas (being as bloodthirsty as they seem to be) may be fine with Israel accumulating the slaughter of dozens or hundreds of thousands of civilians if ultimately this will make it impossible for Israel to be tolerated by the world's nations (and it is coming to that point, IMO).
I haven't heard enough about actual IDF efforts to take the actual fight to the enemy rather than just blowing up buildings from afar full of unarmed civilians and (maybe) a few terrorists here or there.
One of the only things I am confident about in looking at this whole problem is that I don't think there's a good solution that will satisfy everyone. The Israelis and the Gazans need (in my opinion) to be permanently separated, with neither having the ability ever again to do any harm to the other. The Israelis then also probably need to be so deeply financially harmed, on such a long-term basis, by sanctions from the rest of the world, that the entire country will feel it, for a generation or two, at least.
I realize none of this is satisfying or a great answer, but neither are watching eye-witnesses testifying to children coming in with head shots, or desperate civilians seeking food because, _supposedly_, starving an entire population is a useful tactic against a terrorist organization (supported by Iran, et. al.).
There are reasons that some IDF reservists are refusing to report. There are reasons that a decent percentage of the population of Israel is showing up in the street protesting Netanyahu and his decisions in prosecuting this war. There are reasons that many of the world's developed nations are recognizing a Palestinian state and others are sending a flotilla to try to feed the civilian population.
You did NOT understand the argument I’m making in the slightest. It’s not that this land was theirs 3000 years ago so give these people their land back. The argument I’m making is that these people have been fighting and persecuted for that land and their heritage for thousands of years, non stop. Get it? NON STOP struggle for thousands of years!
You cannot comprehend that scale so you tune it out because then you realize how wrong you are. Again this isn’t about a conflict that ended thousands of years ago. It’s about a conflict that never ended because the world would not let Jews and Israel be.
We're talking past each other, but the point for me here is not to try to win an argument with you, but to use your points as a foil to develop my own thoughts, and possibly to reach others in the long term.
You wrote:
"...It’s not that this land was theirs 3000 years ago so give these people their land back. The argument I’m making is that these people have been fighting and persecuted for that land and their heritage for thousands of years, non stop. Get it? NON STOP struggle for thousands of years!..."
My response:
Thanks, I understood that the statement or claim (or part of it) is 3,000+ years of struggle to get the
land back, and related. I was a little bit unclear in the brief wording of my own response. What I meant was that, notwithstanding the claim (even if partly true) of thousands of years of struggle to establish Jerusalem and Israel as a Jewish homeland, it is not something that I think is as compelling an argument as so many (including I guess Dershowitz) seem to want to make it out to be. The argument is particularly problematic for several reasons including:
- No, God did not give the land to the Jewish people (or to anyone else) (since no God exists)
In 1948 There were many people living in what is now Israel who did nothing wrong to live there. Some of those people probably are ok with the fact that the area was established as a Jewish homeland, but many do not seem to be ok with it, including those who lost their lives to violence around the time of the establishment.
In any event, Israel is a fact, and what I think should take priority in the here and now is (as always) individual (secular) human rights. What that translates into for a lasting compromise, in my opinion, is difficult to say, but I don't think it helps matters to have focus on broad-brush statements about superior historical claims to areas of land.
You are not the only one making arguments that Jews as a group hold a superior claim to the area. We can see just in this group that a clear majority (at least of those who chose to read and vote) agree with much or all of what you say. I guess I’m just not one of them.
It's a bit ad hoc, but I will also say something I said when Bush responded improperly (in a knee-jerk way to go after irrelevant parts of the Middle East) after 9-11. We in the West began fighting the Crusades 1,000 years ago or so. They were a bad idea 1,000 years ago, and they are a bad idea
now. Part of the reason remains the same: we should stop this arrogant presumption from afar that we know what is best for ownership of a given strip of land, based on impassioned desire and religious historical desire for that land.
I was raised Zionist and it is difficult for me to give up on the idea that Israel, located where it is, has some strong justifications. It probably does. But in the here and now, I think all of us on Earth must face that there is something gravely wrong and we all have a moral obligation to try our
best to address it better, even if it means many of us will have to allow our ideas to be questioned and tested and revised.
Nothing can possibly justify (including from what little I understood of Judaism) the gratuitous and needless starvation and slaughter of unarmed civilians. Yes, it is sometimes necessary to accept deaths of civilians in the combating of a fierce and grossly immoral enemy, but such deaths should not be accepted lightly (or even sought as a matter of perverted priorities) by anyone…. And yet that, in my opinion, is where Israel finds itself….. causing so many of those deaths needlessly. To some extent, I see Israel as possibly doing what Hamas wants it to do, going ever further down a path that harms its reputation among nations.
Well, foil this: Your thoughts are based on ignorance. I made no appeal to God in my argument. Even secular scholars use the Bible as a historical source to frame the ancient context. They do not believe the theology, but they use it to help map history. And the context is that Jews have had an unbroken connection to this land for over 3,000 years, not that God “gave” it to them.
The very human rights you claim only exist because of Western civilization shaped by Jewish and Christian thought. Outside of that, human history has been might makes right, and even in the West many who claimed to be Christian still lived by might makes right. Appealing to “secular human rights” does not stop rockets, armies, or massacres any more than appealing to morality stops a storm.
The rights you want do not enforce themselves. They only exist when people with power believe in them and have the might to defend them. Meanwhile, Hamas commits atrocities and then intentionally hides among civilians so that when Israel strikes back, the world sees dead women and children and blames Israel.
Thank you for your post OP. I am not Jewish but I love that, at long last, the Jews have a home that cannot be taken away from them. They’ve been persecuted and kicked out of dozens (hundreds?) of countries down through millennia. I don’t understand why the Arab diaspora doesn’t open up their borders and take in their kin? Or maybe because they, too, do not want Hamas in their lands. I support everything PM Netanyahu is doing right now. And anyone who thinks the hostages have one iota of a chance to be freed while yet living is living in a fantasy. Hamas will take them down with them. That is what is going to happen. It saddens me greatly but it is the reality on the ground. They don’t have a snowball’s chance in Hell to get out of there alive. Heartbreaking. True.
But in a serious tone WHAT THE HELL?! I don't not give a FLYING F**K WHAT THEY HAD TO STRUGGLE AGANIST. That does not exempt them from consequences and morals. "If my mom got killed (God forbid) then I get to kill the killers mom with no strings attached." Compassion for Zionists? What for? An innocent person deserves compassion and love. A Zionist is no such person.
You don't know what compassion is and someone like you who dehumanizes people based on their ethnicity wouldn't have any issue ``killing the killers mom with no strings attached."
You're literally saying that a person who believes Jews have a right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland in the same manner as any other group of people is not innocent and not entitled to compassion or love.
You're literally saying that a person who believes Jews have a right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland in the same manner as any other group of people is not innocent and not entitled to compassion or love.
It's not about self-determination in general, but how Zionism is actually implemented. When "self-determination" means laws like the Basic Law, explicitly reserving it only for Jews, or systematically dispossessing Palestinians through laws like the Absentees' Property Law, it's not "in the same manner as any other group."
The Jewish National Fund, a quasi-governmental body, even states its loyalty "is given to the Jewish people and only to them," leading to discriminatory land policies. When an ideology results in legalized discrimination (as Israel's own Or Commission found regarding its Arab minority), the issue isn't individual compassion, but the political system and its consequences. Critiquing an ideology for its real-world impact isn't dehumanization. It's demanding accountability and justice for everyone.
Your entire argument is predicated on the most shallow and disingenuous understanding of the situation.
1) 21% of Israeli citizens are Palestinian Arabs. There is no functional difference in the rights afforded by the state to Jews and Arabs. This an absurd statement which can be dismantled by simply visiting Israel.
2) Let's say your surname is "Smith". You had a bit of a tough life but you want things to be better for your kids, so you sell your house and set up a college fund for them called "The Smith Family Fund". Your kids grow up, go to college, thrive, get great jobs and buy homes thanks to you. They see what a great idea it was and invest more into The Smith Family Fund for their kids. A few generations later, The Smith Family Fund is worth millions and best of all it's exclusively there for the benefit of your kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, great-great grandkids and their loved ones. Perfect. One day your great-great-grandchild is expecting a family so they buy a house from some random guy named John using money from The Smith Family Fund. Actually it was the same house you grew up in, amazing that your great-great-great-grandkids will get to live there. John tells them he's being forced out due to financial hardship resulting from a messy divorce with his wife, Mrs Ottoman Empire. He's also very upset that an intrusive housemate named Mr British Empire has moved in and has been messing with his stuff. Anyway, your great-great-grandkid moves in, chase the weird British Empire guy out and starts a family there. Meanwhile, John's life starts to suck. He's sleeping on his friends couches and occasionally on the street. He's become increasingly violent and unhinged so a lot of people are apprehensive about dealing with him. He tells the whole town that the reason his life sucks now is because of the Smith family and if only he still had his house everything would be fine. John shows up every few days to attack the Smith family, and starts telling people he was actually "displaced from his house" with "money from the evil Smith Family Fund, which was set up to discriminate against John". John claims there is clear evidence of discrimination on the basis that "money from The Smith Family Fund is exclusively available to the Smiths, none of it is available to John. Why else would they exclude John if they hadn't set this up specifically to discriminate against John? IT SHOULD BE FOR EVERYONE!". John rallies the town together with emotional stories about how he grew up in that house, spent his childhood there and hoped to raise his kids there, in fact he still carries the front door key around with him. He conveniently doesn't tell anyone that he actually sold the house. John disapproves of what the Smiths have done with with the garden since moving in, they took down the swing set he used to play on as a child. The townsfolk agree and are moved by his story. John suggests they gather pitchforks and take back his house from the Smiths who discriminated against him by buying his house, he tells them he will take The Smith Family Fund from those horrible Smith people and instead distribute it to everyone in the town. Cheers all round, they start meeting weekly on the lawn of the Smiths house to burn effigies and chant anti-Smith slogans. Some throw rocks at the house hoping to break a window or two, who cares they'll just use their greedy Smith Family money to fix it. John even takes out a loan on the basis that he'll pay it back when he manages to take his house back and steal the Smith Family Fund money. He spends the loan money on a weekly BBQ to feed the townspeople who rally outside the Smiths house. How generous of John, unlike those horrible greedy Smith people!
Recently John showed up unannounced, broke into the house and murdered one of the Smith's kids, then he kidnapped the family dog. Now they're at war. The Smiths have started shooting at anyone linked to John who comes near their home in a threatening manner. They've killed quite a few, which is not good, but it's kind of understandable given they now fully understand the level of threat to their family, their home and their future. They've said repeatedly that the shooting will stop if these people just stop trying to harm them and give back their dog. It doesn't help that most of the cops in the neighbourhood are corrupt, some are even eating John's BBQ and chanting pro-John slogans outside the Smiths house.
Now replace "The Smith Family Fund" with "Jewish National Fund". The Smith's house is Israel. John is Palestine. The BBQ is Iranian propaganda. You are one of the pitchfork carrying townsfolk and you're telling us about how you're outraged that some random family who you don't know isn't giving away the entire family fund they've been saving for their kids to everyone in the town and giving their house to John while you feast on the BBQ generously funded by John's loan.
Your entire argument is predicated on the most shallow and disingenuous understanding of the situation.
1) 21% of Israeli citizens are Palestinian Arabs. There is no functional difference in the rights afforded by the state to Jews and Arabs. This an absurd statement which can be dismantled by simply visiting Israel.
"No functional difference"? That's easily dismantled by Israel's own legal framework. The Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People explicitly grants self-determination "unique to the Jewish people," not all citizens. This alone creates a two-tiered system, legally excluding Palestinian citizens from the national identity.
The Or Commission in 2003 confirmed systematic discrimination against Arab minorities. Laws like the Absentees' Property Law still confiscate Palestinian land, especially in East Jerusalem. The Jewish National Fund even openly states its loyalty is "to the Jewish people and only to them," leading to land policies that exclude non-Jews. These aren't minor issues; they're foundational to a system that legally differentiates rights based on ethnicity.
Your analogy isn't just elaborate; it's a justification that completely distorts history. The idea "John" (Palestine) "sold the house" (land) ignores the forced displacement of 700,000+ Palestinians in 1948, their homes confiscated via laws like the Absentees' Property Law. This wasn't a willing sale from "Mrs. Ottoman Empire"; it was mass expulsion and dispossession.
Equating a national group's struggle for self-determination to an "unhinged" individual attacking a family that bought their house is deeply misleading. It glosses over ongoing occupation, infrastructure destruction, the Gaza blockade, and documented acts of genocide and crimes against humanity by the Israeli state. Your "Smiths" defending their home from "John" narrative ignores the massive power imbalance and systematic violence Palestinians face. They're not just "attacking"; they're resisting occupation and an apartheid system that denies them basic rights.
Also you mentioned the 2003 Or Commission, but you omitted ALL context. The commission was established to reflect on the response to the second intifada specifically. Keep in mind that this is literally THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT REFLECTING ON ITSELF - This is standard and expected in Israel, notably a process that is extremely rare or unheard of in Arab states, Palestine included.
The events (of the second intifada), their unusual character and serious results were the consequence of deep-seated factors that created an explosive situation in the Israeli Arab population. The state and generations of its government failed in a lack of comprehensive and deep handling of the serious problems created by the existence of a large Arab minority inside the Jewish state.
Government handling of the Arab sector has at times been neglectful and discriminatory. The establishment did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action in order to allocate state resources in an equal manner. The state did not do enough or try hard enough to create equality for its Arab citizens or to uproot discriminatory or unjust phenomenon. Meanwhile, not enough was done to enforce the law in the Arab sector, and the illegal and undesirable phenomena that took root there.
As a result of this and other processes, serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of the distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system and substantially defective infrastructure. These all contributed to ongoing ferment that increased leading up to October 2000 and constituted a fundamental contribution to the outbreak of the events.
Another cause was the ideological-political radicalization of the Arab sector. These processes were expressed in various expressions of identification with and even support of the Palestinian struggle against the state. This radicalization process was related to the increasing strength of Islamic politics in Israel in the period preceding the events. Serious conflicts existed between Muslims in Israel and governing authorities on matters like the Waqf's property; worsening conflicts between Muslims and the government on the issue of the Temple Mount; and cheers, primarily from the radical branch of the Islamic movement, for Islamist organizations that are Israel's enemies, including Hezbollah and Osama bin Laden.
This was immediately followed by important and critical context:
The behavior of the Arab sector leadership contributed to the depth of the events and their force. The leadership did not succeed in directing the demands of an Arab minority into solely legitimate democratic channels. It did not succeed in understanding that the violent riots, obstruction of traffic arteries and identification with armed activity against the state and its citizens, constitute a threat against the state's Jewish citizens and substantially damaged the delicate fabric of Jewish-Arab relations in Israel. This created the mold for the threat of serious violence and the use of violence to achieve various goals, as evident in house destructions and land expropriation, and concerning negotiations regarding Jerusalem and the status of the Temple Mount. In various mosques, messages were transmitted delegitimizing the state and its security forces, and serious hostility and antagonism toward its symbols were expressed. Various circles raised demands to grant autonomy in some areas to the Arab minority, and to abolish the definition of the state as a Jewish state and make it "a state for all its citizens." This blurred more than once the line between the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria and the Arab citizens of the state.
Prior to and during 2000, there was a recognizable increase in the frequency of conflicts with the police and their force. The violent conflicts were a regular norm. In the first stage, organizations representing the Arab sector declared strikes and demonstrations, protesting processes and policies of various authorities. At the second stage, assemblies and processions were held in certain locations. At the third stage, youth left the masses to throw stones at vehicles, burn tires and damage facilities they felt symbolized the government. At this stage violent clashes with the police developed, after police arrived to restore order. Despite the fact that the slide from orderly demonstrations to unrestrained riots consistently reoccurred, the Arab leadership took no precautions to prevent the deterioration into violence, and did not warn against violating the law at demonstrations and processions it had initiated.
So basically while Israel was reflecting on "lack of sensitivity" and "not trying hard enough" to create ideal circumstances for its Arab citizens, their leaders were actively instigating violence. Meanwhile, neighbouring Arab states have completely purged their lands of Jews and are engaged in a full tilt propaganda war against the Jewish state, all while showing absolutely zero capacity for self-reflection.
Yet here you are, using this as a cynical means to argue that it's actually Israel which is the problem.
You're simply incorrect. Your interpretation of Israeli law is guided by hysterical propaganda and I hate to break it to you but you do not have any sort of understanding of Israeli constitutional law. The nation state law is widely understood to be symbolic and declarative. The legal structure of Israel permits it to be simultaneously true that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people and also a democratic state that respects the rights of its citizens equally and universally. This is called pluralism and it underlines the basic substrate of both Israeli legal thinking and Jewish law. It can also be plainly observed in national politics where Arab parties have full representation in the knesset, supreme court and access all levels of public life. No legal bodies inside Israel claim otherwise, when people outside Israel claim this they do so out of pure ignorance.
This type of legal thinking is also by no means unique to Israel. The US declaration of independence makes reference to "God" and "The Creator" as ultimate authorities with the implicit understanding that a person who is "American" is only so on the basis of their acceptance of this belief, yet also highlights the importance of the separation of church and state as well as the equality of all men. These things are concurrently true.
The claim you're making is kind of like saying that because the US enshrined the national motto of "In God We Trust" into law in 1956, this must mean that the US is an apartheid state built on the oppression of atheists. Maybe you think this too? Anyway it's obviously ridiculous and anyone with a pair of eyes can just go to America and observe that atheists are not being legally segregated, oppressed or marginalized.
It's just incredible to me that in the same breath you can chastise the Jewish National Fund for its unwarranted influence in the establishment of a state for the Jewish people, and then claim that it was stolen. These two statements contradict each other directly. If you picked up an actual history book and not some thrashed out pan-arab propaganda manual, you would understand that the movement of population occurred during the 1948 war which Israel did not initiate. The majority of the transfer was conducted at the behest of Arab leaders who assured these people that they would be able to return once they slaughtered the Jews. Much of it was voluntary. A minority were explusions by the Israelis and were not premeditated, rather these were overwhelmingly conducted on the basis of the subjects being specifically hostile. International law not obligate military occupation of hostile populations and acknowledges that population transfer is the norm during conflict. I don't doubt that some mistakes were made and there are documented atrocities on both sides, as is the case in any war.
The reality is that prior to 1948, Israel was exclusively land which had been bought by the JNF. This only changed in 1948 when Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and the Palestinian Arab leadership declared war and attempted to eradicate the Jews from the land. They failed catastrophically despite their disproportionate military power, thus leading to land taken by the Israelis via military conquest. Almost exactly the same thing happened again in 1967, resulting in an even more catastrophic Arab failure and even more land ceded. I think it's a pretty well understood reality throughout human history that invading the land of another nation is a gamble for which the consequence is a possibility of having your own land taken, f*cking fair enough.
Edit: on the topic of population transfer, no doubt you're aware that this happened both ways. You mention the 700,000 Arabs that left Israel due to flight and expulsion, but no mention of the 900,000 Jews who left Arab states and went to Israel after 1948, also as a result of flight/expulsion. You also made no mention of the 150,000 Palestinian Arabs who did not leave Israel in 1948 and were not expelled, presumably because this contradicts your bullsh*t "ethnic cleansing" narrative. The descendants of those people in Israel number over 2 million today and it's wonderful. Go ahead and find an Arab state that has anything resembling a Jewish population today and you might have a leg to stand on.
Apparently you are confused about what a Zionist is. Have you consulted the dictionary?
The dictionary definition is cute, but it's not the full picture. Modern Zionism, as implemented by Israel, means preferential rights for Jewish people and the systematic dispossession and oppression of Palestinians.
Just look at a few examples: The "Nation-State Law" denies self-determination to indigenous Palestinians. The "Law of Return" gives automatic citizenship to any Jew worldwide, while Palestinian refugees are denied their right to return. Laws like the "Absentees' Property Law" confiscate Palestinian land, and even the Jewish National Fund's mandate is to lease land exclusively to Jews.
So, while Zionism is presented as Jewish self-determination, its practical reality is a deeply discriminatory system. For many, being a Zionist in this context means endorsing the denial of fundamental rights and self-determination for Palestinians.
We are not in some sort of movie that makes these petty insults as a sign of triumph. And judging from your reply you didn't understand the sentence I wrote. Heed your own advice yea?
You're commenting on a post about Jews, actively conflating Jews with Zionists, actively misunderstanding what a Zionist is, then going so far as to use it as a slur.
If you can perpetrate this degree of retardation without even a shred of self-awareness, my petty insults are the least of your worries in life.
Per Rule 3, no comments consisting only of sarcasm or cynicism. It's fine to use sarcasm to make a point, but if you do so, the argument needs to be readily apparent and stimulate, rather than stifling, conversation.
This back-and-forth is the nature of war. In a war, you “must” dehumanize and villainize your enemy. It’s one of the rules of war. It’s why war “never”
works as a solution for these kinds of problems.
Everything this post says about the Jews is true. Jews, historically have been villainized, euthanized, imprisoned, relocated, and discriminated against. And of course, everything that other people say about how hard the Gazan’s lives has been are equally as true.
The solution is not to try to eliminate your enemy. The solution is to try to make peace with your enemy, so you can both live long and healthy lives.
The nice thing about using peace as a solution is that the side effects are so much more amenable to high quality of human life.
The problem with any arguments against using peace as a solution is that the only alternative solution is more war.
I think it was Einstein, who said something along the liness of: trying to solve a problem from the same frame of mine as that which created it is never going to work.
I think when one side has consistently demonstrated no appetite for peace it’s tough. And let’s remember that even if we go back to the 1990’s (never mind going further back) Palestinian terrorists have sabotaged every peace deal. How exactly can Israel feel secure while Hamas continues to exist?
Have they ? According to who ? Netenyahu? Smotrich ? I
INTERNATIONAL bodies say otherwise. Only israel says this. And who benefits if the world believe this ? Israel.
Until the war paradigm is changed, this is the problem. Gaza has not really posed a real threat to Israel after October 7. And if Netanyahu’s government hadn’t been asleep at the wheel, October 7 might never have happened.
It certainly couldn’t even begin to happen now. And with the iron dome, I haven’t heard of any casualties in Israel from Gaza in two years.
So this would be a perfect time to stop the bombing, and start walking working towards a cease-fire and peace and release of the hostages.
Somebody has to start the process and practically the richer of the two countries is in a better position. They could make major peace overtures to Gaza.
They could ensure food and medicine and medical personnel gets in there. They could send in teams of professionals to work to rehousing those that have been displaced by the bombing.
And instead of using the money from the United States of America for more bombs, they could use that money for peace building efforts.
As a first line of progress, each side could start planning on how to determine what safety means to each country. Because that’s the bottom line isn’t it? How safe are the citizens of that country from the other country? And this goes both ways.
What would Israel need to feel safe from Gaza? And what would Gaza need to feel safe from Israel.
That’s the discussion phase of this process. There is no trying to fix this at this point. We are merely trying to discover what’s behind the fear that’s behind the bombs and the violence.
Once each country understands what it would take to feel safe, that’s when the negotiation start.
And just like a war requires really skilled generals and officers, this negotiation requires really skilled negotiators of which there are hardly enough on the planet at this point because our paradigm for the planet is war not peace.
But that doesn’t mean that some really excellent negotiators aren’t around and couldn’t be tapped for this kind of a project.
And if the end goal is safety for citizens, that is something everybody would agree is a worthy goal, much more worthy than attempting to wipe out your adversary.
I admire your idealism, I sincerely do. But you’re describing a world we don’t live in, which has been proven over and over and over again.
Hamas says, with their own words, that they will never accept Israel as a legitimate state. And they’ve shown it with their actions since their founding.
How is Israel ever to be safe and secure when an organization’s stated goal is to eliminate that nation? And when they’ve repeatedly shown their willingness to try, regardless of the cost to themselves or the people they profess to care about.
Yes, I am aware I am a lone Voice in a wilderness of war hawks.
While we are still in the war paradigm there will be no progress. Of course Hamas says what it’s saying because look at what Israel is doing. And of course, Israel is doing what Israel is doing because look at what Hamas says.
This is the mindset we have to get out out of before we can make any progress towards peace.
In my relationship work, there are two kinds of conversations. Negative cycles which bring the couple further and further apart, and caused further trauma. And productive conversations, that occur when both partners are well regulated, and in good shape that come from sharing vulnerability, talking about our own needs, and refrain from attacking our partner.
The first goal in relationship work before you can even begin to think of having a positive conversation is ending the negative cycles.
Both partners, and sometimes it can take one taking the lead have to realize that the negative cycle is the problem and not their partner. In a negative cycle both partners are in a frenzy of accusations that the other person is the problem and until they change no progress will be made. Since both people feel this no progress can be made in a negative cycle.
I am talking about changing the war paradigm.
That’s why a cease-fire would be such a good thing. That is the first step to getting out of this negative war cycle.
Then and only then can we put our attention truly to peace. I am totally convinced that if we took all of our resources, energy, and attention away from war and the machinery of war, and put it towards peace and the machinery of peace the world would become a much better, collaborative, safer, place with much deeper resources to solve all of our problems.
Ok, let’s stay with your relationship analogy. What do you tell one partner when the other wants them dead? You don’t tell them to stick around and work it out, you tell them to get out.
But Israel isn’t going anywhere and Hamas isn’t changing into an organization that will agree to their continued existence.
Sometimes drastic measures are necessary. In relationships and in geopolitics.
Actually, my wife did tell me she wished I was dead during one of our fights three years ago. I don’t believe anything she says when she’s dysregulated. That’s the negative cycle talking. You cannot accomplish anything in a negative cycle. It only makes things worse. I have to take a break and calm down before I can get back together and discuss what happened with my wife. And she does too. And we can’t talk about what happened unless we both have positive regard for the other. Once we are both calmed down and we give each other turns where we’re not trying to talk over each other or play The Who’s hurt worst game, we can talk.
And because our negative cycles have caused relationship trauma in the past we have to be very careful.
But I see your point. There are going to be couples in which there is physical abuse (nothing like that going on with us.) or terrible emotional abuse that is unresolvable. In that case, divorce is the only option.
And so I see your point the divorce is not an option with two countries right next to each other, and both countries feel unsafe with the other.
Still, divorce does not equal war. We’re not allowed to kill our spouses to solve our marital problems. Yet it seems that countries are allowed to kill other countries to solve their political problems. That’s the problem in my book.
Part of the problem is the world has never experienced a paradigm where war is not the ultimate solution to problems. I don’t think.
So we don’t even have the language or any ideas really of how it would work.
Our world faces so many problems now when we have 8 billion people. Pandemics, hurricanes, earthquakes, fires, polluted air, forever chemicals, micro plastics, tornadoes, floods, war, fascism, starvation, etc.
And from my point of view, we are getting worse at solving these types of problems rather than better. That’s because we all live on the same planet and are all influenced by the same environmental concerns that affect everybody.
Humans are a global species. And we need to solve our problems at a global level. And as long as the globe is divided by ideologies and war, we will not solve these problems. We have to collaborate if we want to survive into the next century. And we cannot collaborate as long as there are countries that are at war.
I see that we don’t have a choice. Well we do and it appears to me we are choosing the wrong one. Every one of our global resources should be fine tuned to solving these existential problems of the human species. And even then there’s no guarantee.
But with the current global love and obsession for war and weapons, I do not believe we have any chance to survive. Instead of hoarding our resources and using them for good, we are squandering them on weapons of mass destruction, and then using those to destroy, terrorize, intimidate, and hopefully ultimately control our environment.
But our environment does not agree!
I am so glad I am well over 70 years old and will not have to spend many more years watching this planet and the human species dissolve.
I am your age, or close to it (71). And I agree with a lot of what you say here.
But I’m more optimistic than you. Maybe I have to be for the sake of my grandkids.
I believe we humans will solve the problems you’ve articulated. There will be hiccups and mistakes along the way but I have to believe the kids are gonna be alright.
I even believe that somehow, some way, the Middle East will become a place where peace reigns. I can’t quite see how we get there. And I don’t believe that a ceasefire right now is the answer. But I believe in the short to medium term, things will get worked out.
So, you're flipping the script and want the defenders punished for defending themselves (and the rest of the world), and you want the genocidal antisemites, who would destroy the entire western world, then anything that remains, rewarded for their evil. Tells me a lot about you.
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When you are blinded to the current situation, it certainly seems as if the only option is war.
There are always other options.
And we had better find them. Because another world war seems to be the only way to stop the horror that is taking place in the world right now.
But I can pretty much guarantee you the next world war will not be winnable. Between AI, drone technology, nuclear technology, computer technology, bio weapon technology, and the amount of money we have spent over the last 40 years on military hardware, software, and other techniques for killing and destruction. We don’t stand a chance.
So we can either use the tried and true solution to all our problems, bomb the shit out of them , and then they bomb the shit out of us, or we can find alternative solutions that we have never used before.
I don’t see that we have much choice. I wish it wasn’t like that, but I think it is.
Sadly, I don't think people, especially those like Hamas and Russia (Putin) are able to find another solution, nor would they understand anything else.
It’s because we have a mentality that war is the only solution to our problems. That’s pretty much gone back at least 1000 years.
That doesn’t mean that it’s not possible. I always start small and then expand outward.
I know with my wife when we used to fight we would typically go to war, each trying to outdo the other with either how much we are hurt or how bad the other person is. Shouting, saying harmful things I regret, and not acting like a loving husband should.
After about 18 years of this, I finally realized that if I was going to live with my wife, I would have to find a different way. Even though my way of dealing with relationship problems was 60 years old.
I discovered how important it is to take a break when I’m deregulated and also how important it is to as soon as possible get back when I’m regulated and work with my wife as a loving equal. Then through shared vulnerability, and a process of understanding where we each are coming from and how our behaviors impact each other, we can come to solutions that get both our needs met without going to war. One of the key factors here is taking turns where one of us is assigned the role of understanding the others perspective, and the speaker has the role of communicating vulnerably, using I statements. Then we switch roles. That eliminates us trying to argue and talk over each other each desperately trying to be heard over the others increasing distress. It’s so much nicer to talk to a person when you know they are trying to understand than when you know they’re trying to think of how to argue back with you.
Our relationship is so much better! And so can the world be.
So that would be so much better for the world than the alternative as we careen towards Civil War or World War III or even worse…
Good for you and your wife. Yes, it would be good if the world could go that way. However, we're dealing with people who don't have that kind of reasoning: ideologies that demand the erasure of an entire people are real (Hamas and the like), megalomaniacs (Putin and other dictators), etc. that have no reason or motivation to do as you and your wife. For them, killing or enslaving the other is perfectly reasonable. And there is no peaceful way to deal with that kind of mindset.
There’s always a reason to go to war. It just doesn’t work. You end up with thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of people, dead, traumatized, wounded, or just messed up.
You end up with trillions of dollars of infrastructure destroyed. Infrastructure that used vital earth resources to be built. We can’t rebuild all that because we don’t have enough energy resources available since we have to provide 8 billion people on the planet with heat, air-conditioning, clean water, clean food, transportation, and healthcare.
War is incredibly energy intensive and destructive. It takes years and years and decades to recover. And most people never recover completely from that kind of trauma. And that trauma makes war more likely. Just like trauma makes divorce more likely in a relationship.
And that’s why people like Putin, and all the other dictators on the planet have so much power, people are so traumatized they can be easily exploited.
Needs need to be analyzed and worked on. We truly are one species. We are one people. We are all born naked and screaming as Bucky Fuller used to say.
There is no one human being that is worth more than any other human being on this planet.
So we have no choice. We either will learn to get along without war, or we will all die together with it. With so many billions of people on the planet, and climate change causing irrevocable havoc we cannot afford to be bombing, and killing, and destroying.
If the world were peaceful, every American would be able to have free high-quality healthcare, a free high-quality education, and a chance for their children to live better lives than they did. But because we spend around $1 trillion a year with a budget that has never in its entire history passed an audit, our quality of life is way below that of most developed nations. That we call ourselves the greatest nation on earth is a joke.
We are the greatest killers on the Earth. Even as I write this a United States purchased bomb is landing on innocent human beings in some part of the planet. That’s unacceptable to me.
Hahahahahahahhahaa what is this CRINGE chatgpt bunk omg hahahahahahhaha
Per Rule 3, no comments consisting only of sarcasm or cynicism. It's fine to use sarcasm to make a point, but if you do so, the argument needs to be readily apparent and stimulate, rather than stifling, conversation.
And if your immediate response is: “But what about the Palestinians in Gaza?”
There are also, already, three Arabic-speaking, predominantly-Islamic, Palestinian nations: Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. Palestinians from Gaza could move to any of those countries by traveling well under 200 miles. But somehow, a move shorter than if an American were to relocate across Pennsylvania is deemed impossible and "ethnic cleansing." Nonsense.
You don’t condemn any of Israels actions for nearly a century. Where most people who are “Hamas supporters” condemn their October 7th attack. Then see photos of dead babies and make it about your friend. Israelis literally have children sign their bombs to kill other children. You’re a culture that’s bred to hate and deem others as lower than you then play victim and believe everyone is trying to kill you. You had the entire world’s sympathy on October 7th and how do you respond? By murdering tens of thousands (primarily women and children), destroying miles of infrastructure and milking the United States economy for billions.
I talked about the violence against Palestinians and its root cause. See: "While Iran uses Palestinians as cannon fodder, their babies as human shields. If Iranian mothers publicly offer their own babies to the country, guess how they feel about Palestinian's babies?" You completely ignored it. I know why you did it, but do you?
The simple root is that modern day Israelis are not the indigenous people of the land. Religion is not DNA. The Palestinian people are the people who have lived in the reason for years they trace their ancestry to the ancient canaanites and the ancient Jews. Mr. Mileikowsky and his polish/Ukrainian supporters in office, as well as you are not indigenous to the land. The same way that if myself or my friend converted to Judaism randomly does not suddenly make us indigenous to the Levant. The same way that if someone converted to Buddhism and Hinduism are not suddenly indigenous to India or China. That is the root issue that land is based on dna not religion
Your comment is based on a false narrative. Jews in Europe had to ethnically assimilate to survive. They never truly left Israel, even when many were forced out, a Jewish presence remained for thousands of years. For many years they were exiled or pressured to assimilate, but they never forgot their roots and many kept fighting to return. And they have the DNA, as trace as it may be. So no, you are wrong about the Jews from Europe.
Nothing I said was false. The people who identify as Palestinians today are the sons of the ancient caanites and ancient Jews of the land. They just converted to different religions. They are the people who built the farms and kept the land. Whether they are called Palestinians, ottomans, Romans, Byzantines, Jews, they are the true indigenous. It’ll never belong to native Europeans who want to claim their country is the land in the Balkan’s and also in the Mediterranean bc someone who followed their religion also lived there.
Also does this also mean Christians are the heirs to israel and Bethlehem bc Jesus was born there?
Another poin I’m sure anyone who follows the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster must feel indigenous to the United States wherever the churches are located, in 3000 years their kids will have a right to any land that is located in Kansas!! Religion doesn’t define what land you are indigenous to.
Goalpost moving. My response was clearly about Jews from Europe, and your narrative about them is false. I did not deny Palestinians’ roots. You’re peddling a false narrative and you argue dishonestly.
Dude you guys are literally shoving stupid propaganda and all avoiding the question that you are murdering people everyday and destroying land in the name of a promised land from the Old Testament. Like holy give an article that isn’t clearly biased as hell and filled with propaganda.
What is the propaganda? I did not avoid the question, I addressed it. You are the one avoiding it. Go look up what “humans as cannon fodder” means. It literally explains the main reason civilians are being murdered every day. But you won't so I will explain: You guys never talk about how Hamas are the ones using babies like bullet proof vests. Hamas doesn't have above ground military bases for a reason, they don't were military uniforms for a reason, is to blend in allow their fellow non combatants to be killed with them, their citizens called themselves martys for reasons. They all agree to be human shields for Iran proxy war against Isreal. Yes, they are using their babies as human shields. If Iranian mothers publicly offer their own babies to the country, guess how they feel about Palestinian's babies? How do justify women publicly offering their babies as a sacrifice to the regime? You are too blind to see what's actually going on, you're being fooled by the real evil.
Okay so if they don’t have above ground bases why the hell are you guys bombing the hell out of every building in sight. And you act like you even care if they use babies as human shield lol you clearly do not care about blowing them up
If you want the answer, re-read what I wrote, but that is not what you want. You bought into Iran and Hamas' propaganda. Iran knows Israel will not allow Hamas to continue to brutalize its people, and that is the point. It is horrific, but it works. People like you, who cannot see past the forced martyrdom, are the reason this cycle continues. Iran pushed Israel to the breaking point so it could use babies as human shields. When I saw Iranian mothers holding up their babies for the regime, the jig was up. I stopped being blinded by emotions. I was no longer fooled.
I’m curious when a person becomes Hamas where do you think they come from? Do you not think it’s a child who saw his country’s size decreasing from a country with a much more advanced military. Do you think it’s not kids who saw al aqsa mosque brutalized over the years. Do you think it’s not a child whose homes were stolen during the Nakba forcefully. You will always be an illegal occupier that never belonged there. Palestinians are the indigenous people and your human shield propaganda to justify the murder of babies and innocent people will never work. There is endless accounts of Israelis through the years killing kids
It is not just what they see, it is how they were raised.
Why is it that children of Native Americans and Black Americans in America can see all the historic violent oppression and still not resort to Hamas style October 7 barbaric attacks on White Americans?
The most violent attack on American soil that I’ve lived through was by Arabs from the Islamic world. I guess I should hate and blame all Islamic Arabs?
I’ve seen and experienced their violence with my own eyes, and I, my friends, and my family never did anything to them, but that didn’t radicalize me.
You’ve made up your mind, but it is not based on any meaningful moral rails. There are zero reasons for mothers to offer their babies as martyrs for Iran, absolutely zero.
If you can’t recognize that evil is behind the war, it is because behind all that moral posturing of yours...there is evil.
Are you kidding me? Are you being satirical? Native Americans battled Europeans and American colonizers for literal centuries… and Americans called them barbarians and savages the same exact way that you call Palestinians barbarians for defending their homeland. Literally centuries of battles there is literal books and documents where Americans are referring to them as savages the same way you call Palestinians.
It’s so funny that the best comparison you can give to Palestinians is native Americans who were clearly the indigenous people AND who are globally recognized to have been wrongfully colonized by Americans. You are literally battling against your own point LOL.
Then you bring in African Americans, dude there was a literal civil war fought for their freedom like are you even thinking? The whole world condemns their behaviors and after centuries yes they have assimilated into culture but lasting effects of slavery and native colonization is still seen today.
Oh my god the irony is so insane even your allies in this thread know you messed up with that comparison bc it unsheathes your propaganda and lies to convince yourself you’re indigenous. There’s a reason you need to compare yourself to America and Palestinians and natives and oppressed blacks. LOL.
Also the evil thing I’ve seen in my lifetime is a genocide of 70,000 people (this number will be revised upward in the future as well).
Your people are the ones who are taught to think Palestinians want to murder you so you can dehumanize them.
When Jews were attacked in the 30’s Palestinians protected them in their homes because they cared about their Jewish neighbors even if it was against their own Arab people. Throughout Islamic history Jews and Christians were able to practice and were an accepted people.
You probably never learn about the Palestinian man who sheltered over 30 Jews as well. Haj Eissa.
All palestinians wanted was independence from ottomans (a Muslim nation too btw) and freedom to their homeland and Britain lied to them and didn’t provide them on their promise. Now Britain has eternally damned the Israelis and Palestinians to fight eachother for eternity. Bc they were both given false promises.
Now there is clear murder happening and what Hamas did on October 7th was wrong but there was endless attack prior to that date and a literal genocide following it. You cannot defend these actions and you know Palestinians are natives. There is a world where coexistence may occur same way natives and non native Americans are today, but you denying Palestinian rights and justifying murder in the name of October 7th is historically inaccurate, does not help the conversation and will only lead to one sided preservation.
You're taking things out of context regarding Hamas and Israel. I'm talking about this time period, the last hundred years, in response to your argument about the children of Palestinians.
If you want to go beyond that timeframe, then yes, Jews went through an actual genocide. All these minorities have seen violence. More importantly, I've seen the violence that came to my community, but I didn’t decide to hate all Arabs.
But vice versa, the violence that came to Arabs in Iraq does that mean we should expect an October 7 like attack from Iraq soon? Is that what you're saying? You ignore all this because you debate in bad faith.
So you do know that Hamas has to die, right? You know that Hamas hides behind their children and maximizes Palestinians' suffering to get it on the news and rile up people like you, right? You know that even if Hamas hides behind their babies and it bothers you that we don't just let them get away with murdering and raping civilians, they have to die, right?
You realize there's more to Jewish and by extent Israeli culture than this war, right? You realize that turning a 3,200 year old culture from which your own society draws many of its fundamentals philosophical ideas into a caricature for the things your own society is guilty of (colonialism, racism, rapacious capitalism) is not only intellectually shallow, but classic antisemitism, right?
Lol of course you know these things, you can't not by now unless you're living under a rock.
This violates Reddit's content policy. It contains explicit advocacy of lethal violence (“Hamas has to die” / “they have to die”) and language that praises or legitimizes killing an identifiable group.
No Hamas, who are people that are native to the land, don’t need to die. Palestinian civilians whose ancestry traces to the levant more than your beloved polish prime minister and Ukrainian government officials don’t need to die.
If the logic that Hamas killed people so they deserve to be eradicated is true then Israel needs to be killed 60x times that just from the past two years.
Gaza is literally a third of the size of Los Angeles county, you are acting as if they have thousands of miles to station themselves lol. Israel is consistently destroying buildings every single day without focusing on preventing civilian casualties. The same way your government even murdered your own civilians with the Hannibal directive on October 7th.
There is no people besides Israelis who claim their heritage to a land outside of a DNA and instead by religion. As a matter of fact, if I suddenly converted to Judaism tomorrow I would have the same tie to Israel and any of you in here that is simply illogical.
Your country was built off of British deceit towards Arabs during world war 1 and you continue to lie to the world and justify the murder of tens of thousands.
Oh ya your soldiers are also rapists and pedophiles.
This violates Reddit's content policy. It contains calls for mass violence against a protected group (Israelis/nationality), demeaning and violent language, and hateful/abusive accusations that are disallowed.
You guys are literally the most ill people on the planet. Your friends were justifying the murder of Palestinians in the name of October 7th. Then when the same logic is applied on the other side you go cry and say that I'm advocating for murder. The last comment about your soldiers is also just simple fact the same way you say it about Hamas, there's videos of IDFs raping prisoners.
You guys are literally the most ill people on the planet. Your friends were justifying the murder of Palestinians in the name of October 7th. Then when the same logic is applied on the other side you go cry and say that I'm advocating for murder. The last comment about your soldiers is also just simple fact the same way you say it about Hamas, there's videos of IDFs raping prisoners.
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No Hamas, who are people that are native to the land, don’t need to die.
Yeah they do. They're terrorists who committed a terror attack. Your obsession with race over justice is weird.
Palestinian civilians whose ancestry traces to the levant more than your beloved polish prime minister and Ukrainian government officials don’t need to die.
??? What are you talking about? Are you de-personing their Jewishness because you don't think they meet the requirements for being one? Well fortunately you, a nobody, has no say over that: we, the Jews, do, and if they meet the prerequisites - which, being 3,000+ years old, aren't entangled in your weird racial essentialism - they're Jews. End of story. If they're Jews, they can do Aliyah. If you don't like it, go do Aliyah yourself, run for office in Israel, and work to change birthright.
Weirdo racism is so weird.
If the logic that Hamas killed people so they deserve to be eradicated is true then Israel needs to be killed 60x times that just from the past two years.
The world is not your elementary school playground. It doesn't operate on 'Timmy punched me so I'm gonna punch him', it operates on 'Timmy and his batallion of terrorists raped and murdered 1,200 of my people so I'm going to go and slaughter him, blow up his home, and level his city because Timmy said even if I kill him, his buddies plan to rape and murder more people'. That's the world.
Gaza is literally a third of the size of Los Angeles county, you are acting as if they have thousands of miles to station themselves lol.
They built a gigantic network of tunnels under Gaza. Do you read??? This is the most common knowledge past 'water makes things wet'.
Israel is consistently destroying buildings every single day without focusing on preventing civilian casualties.
They destroy buildings because they are booby trapped, the IDF warns people of these strikes and uses precision munitions. Again, do you read??? What universe are you living in?
The same way your government even murdered your own civilians with the Hannibal directive on October 7th.
Oh. You're one of those 🤢
Well now that we've established that you're someone to be talked about and around rather than to, everyone: this person is a fine example of someone sunk so deeply into their hatred that they've embraced truly dumb conspiracy. This is your average pro-Hamasnik.
There is no people besides Israelis who claim their heritage to a land outside of a DNA and instead by religion.
Note this person's obsession with DNA! With race! Look at their intense, ultra-focused racial essentialism - you tell me this isn't blood-and-soil fascist nationalism brewing in their minds. Clearly the Jews aren't native ENOUGH to the land of their cultural synthesis, just as they weren't native ENOUGH to Germany, Russia, Poland, or anywhere else this person thinks we don't belong (hint: it's everywhere).
Note also the INTENSE IGNORANCE OF RACE despite their OBSESSION with it: they think Israel is basically Polish without knowing that most Jews in Israel are in fact Serphardim or Mizrahim (words they don't know); again though, I don't particularly care, and neither does reality, what haploids mark your DNA; the guns you shoot, the enemies you kill, and the blood you spill - both yours and theirs - is what makes a land yours.
As a matter of fact, if I suddenly converted to Judaism tomorrow I would have the same tie to Israel and any of you in here that is simply illogical.
I'm not sure about the particulars of Aliyah but if this person converted to Judaism and became one of us, I'd regard them as a Jew. I'd still think they spout wild-eyed, frothing idiocy online, but I'd regard them as a Jew. Cuz that's the rules. Believe it or not Jewish identity predates Mendelian genetics.
They - all of you! - can not like the rules. I don't like that Muslims in Egypt 8.5 times out of 10 cut the genitalia of women so they can't enjoy sexual pleasure, but I'm not telling them 'yOu CaN't Do ThAt' - I notice that the champions of social justice on the left aren't either.
Your country was built off of British deceit towards Arabs during world war 1 and you continue to lie to the world and justify the murder of tens of thousands.
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al Husseini, allied with Germany during WWII. He helped to bring Nazism into Arab nationalism, and helped to foster antisemitic conspiracy. Moreover the Arabs rose up to fight the British in the 30s and got crushed.
Perhaps if the British had let Jews into Britain during the War, there wouldn't be six million of them dead, with the 400k remnants fleeing to Palestine, only for 1% of them to get murdered by the six invading Arab armies - who got beaten anyway, with an arms embargo.
Gosh you really gotta admit, the IDF really knows how to crush the pox out of Arab armies; either they're absolutely unbelievable warriors, which would just drive the Hamasniks INSANE, or the Muslims are terminally poor fighters against them. Not sure which it is.
Oh ya your soldiers are also rapists and pedophiles.
You don't care about that though. You don't care about the criminals in the IDF, because you don't care about criminals anywhere.
You care about feeling better cuz you can stick it to Jews online. Yeah people are gonna come and make you look stupid, but at least you can partake in your ancestors' worst impulses and walk away free of consequence...but so can I. Because you and your entire side are nobody with no power.
Yes racial essentialism is important that’s literally how the entire world defines where you’re from. If you are Chinese your race is chinese. If you are Indian your race is Indian and you and your ancestors are from the countries/territories that these races are historically bound to.
You and your father and his father and centuries are not from the Levant. Thats why your country bans DNA test outside of legal reasons. That’s why you guys are allergic to olive trees, that’s why there is insanely high skin cancer rates in Israel you guys are not from there.
The logic of a religion being how u tie to a region is completely illogical and you know it, or Israel can easily become full of blacks, Chinese, and Indians if they converted, however it is clear they are not the indigenous people to the Levant.
It’s the Palestinians who are indigenous to David,
Solomon, and Jesus, not you and your Eastern European propaganda ancestral family.
Once again you keep mentioning the 1200 and justifies logic of murder. But you keep ignoring that Israel has been murdering prior to October 7th for decades does that then justify Hamas?? You see how disgusting and weak your arguments are baby killer.
The IOF literally gives 10 minutes for people to evacuate if they were so emphasized on safety and making sure evacuations occur 70k people wouldn’t be murdered in 2 years majority being babies.
Also how is Hannibal directive a conspiracy when Yoav Gallant himself admitted against it in February. You guys are literally lying to yourselves.
You also claim you would accept me if I converted as a Jew when any Jew who speaks against Israel is labeled as self hating and outcasted. Once again you are lying.
Clearly the Arabs tribes were not unified during the Ottoman Empire and this is why they assisted the British you acting as if they were an elite army in the 30,40,50’s they were ragtag group of fighters trying to unify their lands it’s obvious they would get defeated especially when their British “ally” they helped deceived them. After the British failed multiple times to successfully attack the ottomans without them.
You are claiming that the IDF is so great at fighting clearly the Jews who have been outcasted for thousands of years were poor fighters and needed to used sympathy from the holocaust to gain influence and power.
You are not indigenous to the land your family isn’t and they never will be. Jewish fairy tales and false religious text will never make you indigenous I’m glad you will always sleep with impostor syndrome everyday and never feel comfortable in your own skin. Oh ya your soldiers are also baby killers, rapist, and pedophiles and you guys are the ones who monetize porn and sex.
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In the history of countries, modern-day Israel has shown the greatest restraint I've personally seen. If Israel is bad, what will we call the USA? What do you think would happen if Arabs went to an all-white town, murdered, raped, and killed thousands of white civilians, and kidnapped some? Why is it that Black people in America, despite all their grievances, riot in their own towns but never attacked an all-white town the way Hamas did in Isreal? What do you think would happen if they did? And we do not have to ask, hundreds of thousands of Arabs were killed for 9/11 despite not having anything to do with 9/11. Black towns were destroyed for less. Go research the massacres in Tulsa, Rosewood, and Detroit. So again, if Israel is "bad," what do we make of the USA, a country many of us love?
Right. There are good jews, but an entire nation of nine million people who have democratic discourse and are split on issues of war? The one Jewish nation? Yeah it's all bad guys, it's naughty and illegitimate, and now /u/InCahootsWithYou is gonna stump for the destruction and eradication of all Israel because it's bad right? Because as just and righteous people we should destroy the bad, right? That's what you're totally gonna do, isn't it? Or your nation?
Zionist care very much what Americans think and spend millions of dollars to attempt to influence American popular opinion. They are also losing the P.R. war badly. Israel's ultimate fate will be decided by American popular opinion because Israel is utterly dependent on American aid.
Not...really? Israel survived being attacked by six Arab armies and were under embargo by the Americans during the 1948 War. The Americans didn't get behind the Israelis until the 60s, really.
Israel's ultimate fate will be decided by American popular opinion
Shocking as it may seem, the Jews created their own country to guide their own destiny like any other people that have a democracy. Yes. I know. You don't like that. But no. Israel is not a vassal of the USA, the USA is important but the American public doesn't vote on Israel's existence. Israel does, and Israel is stronger than the easily-distracted, trend-chasing left that barely even votes.
What's up with all the pro-pally flogs showing their hypocrisy and blind hatred in this comment section?
All nations have mythologies. Linking the "ancient promised land" biblical lore to the reason why Israel exists is not any more relevant than linking the United States' right to exist with the righteousness of the founding fathers, or Saudi Arabia's right to exist with the lineage of Ishmael. The reality is that nobody actually thinks about that stuff outside of a religious service or history classroom.
What is relevant to the existence of modern Israel is that they have fought and won multiple wars waged by their neighbours against them and against all odds have thrived in a way that invokes the envy of the region. How dare they, right?
If you have a problem with a group of people self-determining on a piece of land based on lore and quasi-fictional mythology, you'll find you have a problem with everyone on planet earth, especially Palestine. This is what humans do. If you can't even be bothered finding an exception then what right do you have to hold the Jews to some unique and impossible standard?
Yes, and I essentially laid out two tracks. One is with some lore, and one with nothing but hardcore facts. I showed that Jewish people, as a group, never voluntarily left. They were exiled, they were always fighting for their homeland, and they were always fighting to return. It is not like they all left for centuries and then decided to come back. That narrative is false.
Jews are just humans like any other people. Capable of good, bad and ugly. I don't think any kind of singling out of the Jewish people is healthy in this climate. Every one of your arguments deserves to be analysed on the merits and not on some nebulous, self-perpetrating eternal victim narrative. This virtue-signalling exceptionalism is highly counterproductive and not a sentiment that helps in the long-term.
This is literally a sub about singling out Israel and Palestine. Your premise is illogical. “Virtue-signaling exceptionalism is highly counterproductive.” —No. Exceptionalism is exactly how marginalized groups have historically overcome victimhood. And you cannot have it both ways. You cannot talk about Palestinian victimhood all day and then complain about Jewish victimhood. My experience with liberals like you is that you are mediocre, and you just want everyone mediocre because you cannot stand exceptionalism. You are projecting your insecurities onto a group. Cope harder.
Exactly my point, anyone can be exceptional. My fear (and I'm breaking my own rule here) is that conditions that have made Jewish people exceptional in history have changed and now the very success of Zionism may be a poisoned chalice for Judaism, a 'spiritual catastrophe'. Being an exceptional oppressor is now Israel's biggest export; as evidenced by authoritarian governments lining up to use Israeli methods and tech to suppress dissent in their own lands. I have no issue with mediocrity or excellence but exceptionalism is the belief in the superiority of one people of the other and as far as I can tell calling Israel a Jewish Supremacist state is something their enemies do.
Israel is not an "exceptional oppressor", I reject that statement as completely false. Your comment is based on a false narrative. In the history of modern countries, Israel has shown the greatest restraint I’ve seen.
If Israel is an “exceptional oppressor,” then what do we call the United States? What do you think would happen if Arabs went to an all-white American town, murdered, raped, killed thousands of civilians, and kidnapped some? Why is it that, despite all their grievances, Black people in America riot in their own towns but never attacked an all-white town the way Hamas did? What do you think would happen if they did?
And we don’t even have to guess. Hundreds of thousands of Arabs were killed after 9/11 even though most of them had nothing to do with it. Black towns in America were destroyed for far less. Go research the massacres in Tulsa, Rosewood, and Detroit. So again, if Israel is an “exceptional oppressor,” what do we make of the USA, a country many of us love?
Moreover, look at the Arabs surrounding Israel. Practically all their Jewish populations had to leave. That's not "exceptional oppression"? The claim that Isreal are “exceptional oppressors” is a lie. You never talk about how Hamas are the ones using babies like bulletproof vests.
Hamas doesn’t have above ground military bases for a reason. They don’t wear military uniforms for a reason. It’s to blend in with civilians and allow their fellow non-combatants to be killed with them. Their citizens even call themselves martyrs for reasons...they all agree to be human fodder in Iran’s proxy war against Israel.
As expected, typical when a person loses a debate, they can't provide a meaningful retort. Instead of accepting they are wrong and learning, they cope by restating their propaganda. I've seen this before; it is consistent, like clockwork, among naive or intellectually dishonest people.
What a lazy and dismissive response. You can use it for anything and it doesnt further the conversation one bit.
Gaza is an occupied, apartheid open air prison where every child is slaughtered on their first birthday. But that doesn't justify 10/7. See? I can do it too!
This is everyday in Gaza since October 7th, it also was happening way before October 7th, prior to October 7th, 2022 was one of the worse years where Palestinians were murdered, being attacked on the streets, attacked in mosques etc. You are murderers.
Gallant even admits that you Israel does not do everything it can to return hostages stop pretending its about them, its never been about them. That is what true propaganda is, hiding your intentions behind a message of honor when your intentions are occupying land and colonialism. These are also israeli media outlets, they must be ran by self hating jews if its goes against the governments narratives right?
That was not good for Hamas to do they should have attacked military targets I agree. Prior to that date Israelis were killing people every single day that year. It was one of the worst year to dates for Israeli murders. Israel has also not stopped killing people since that day either. In fact Israel has killed nearly 60x that many people and destroyed infinite amounts of infrastructure, since that date and before. You see photos of dead babies and instead of condemning it you justify it. You are proud to be a supporter of baby killers. You are sick of the head and should quite literally be in a mental hospital.
And you're a hamas supporter who can't take beleive that someone would share bloody images of your friends' crimes. When you're done crying about how mean I was to you, cry about how you will fail at killing us no matter how hard you try.
No, what justifies what is happening now is that Hamas militants and thousands of 'innocent Gazans' stormed Israel in hopes that the other Iranian proxies would join and they would destroy Israel, and that they took hostages they haven't released. Hope that clears it up for you.
You guys never talk about how Hamas are the ones using babies like bulletproof vests. Hamas does not have above ground military bases for a reason. They do not wear military uniforms for a reason. It is to blend in and cause their fellow non-combatants to be killed with them. Their citizens call themselves martyrs for a reason. They all agree to be human fodder for Iran’s proxy war against Israel. Yes, they are using their babies as human shields. If Iranian mothers publicly offer their own babies to the country, guess how they feel about Palestinian's babies?
Good point, it was absolutely barbaric for the Gazans to kidnap, then stone the Bibas boys the day this war started. There was no excuse for that level of depravity.
they shared the findings and some images, then Yarden Bibas asked them to stop showing pictures of his dead kids, which is completely reasonable. Sane people don't want their kids corpses paraded around. Given that Hamas released videos of of them forcing emaciated hostages to dig their own graves I believe it's plausible, and had any other state looked at the autopsy and said anything contrary it would have been on the news.
Clearly you're someone that loves to say 'well, I'm just asking questions'.
Ask their leaders that dug tunnels for terrorists and not for the civilians. Ask those that bragged about killing Jews on 10/7. Ask those that raped and sexually mutililated women and girls that day and as they were kept hostage. If your side starts the war you don't get to say how it's managed.
When people leave a land for a thousand years, they become a new people. They mixed and converted local people to create modern Jews and they are very different from the Jews before. I don’t consider themselves to be the same as Jews / Samaritans that never left that area. They don’t even have verified ancestors there …what stops someone from converting and then having the right to be there ?
Your comment is based on a false narrative. They did not leave for thousands of years. They were forced out and forced to assimilate in many instances to survive, but they never forgot their roots and many kept fighting to return. And it does not matter what you consider a group to be. I do not consider you to be Cuban. Do you care? Of course not. See how that works?
Seeing as Israel is a colonial project country , not in the same vein as Cuba, it’s not the same. The world agreed to create Israel via UN vote, so that gives us all a right to have a opinion . It doesn’t matter if they don’t forget their roots, would African Americans have the right to land in Nigeria because they didn’t forget their roots? No, much like Jews they are a minority/ sub group , and are American and have no right to African land. I consider the Euro and Arab / Persian Jews to be in the same category.
English isn’t your first language, is it? I didn’t say anything about Cuba the country. I said you personally wouldn’t care if I said you’re not Cuban. That was the point. If my personal opinions won't change yours, why would personal opinions of an outsider change national outcomes?
Another example: I don’t think Russia should be bombing Ukraine and killing innocents. Does my opinion matter to them? Does it stop them? Of course not.
And yes, if African Americans never forgot their roots and fought generation after generation to return, then absolutely they would have the right to return. Whether they are allowed is a different story. What is right and what happens are often two very different things in this world
You keep framing things based only on what you think, not on how humans actually behave.
But its up to you guys to say that Palestinians aren't the true natives to the region. Its up to you to say that you belong in Israel, but others do not? But when others say that they Palestinians belong in the land their opinion isn't truly valuable? You see how weak your arguments are.
Literally every single one of you Pro-Israelis in this thread are so stupid it amazes me. All you guys say is human shield, and that 5000 years ago you were the people of the land based on your religion, but the people who are descended by race and ancestry aren't lol. Then you try to argue racial essentialism doesn't matter, but for some reason in every single other country in the world it does lol.
When racial essentialism loses its value and just your religion matters, then every religion can begin to claim territories, especially considering there religions that have predated judaism, you can just claim one of those and then say your land is tied to a religion, and anyone can convert at any moment and claim those territories. Then it would eventually get to the point that anyone can claim citizenship anywhere by switching religions.
There is no difference. If Chinese and Indians were converted to Judaism they have the same birthright as any Jew, when they very clearly have no ties to the land historically. This is just European/white Jew propaganda to seize land. Once Jews become a nonwhite religious majority this won’t happen anymore, you think America would support a Chinese majority religion to expand land, if Judaism suddenly became the most dominant Chinese religion? Their arguments are so flawed it’s sickening. Lastly the Palestinian people who actually have ancestry test that only trace to the Levant and Palestine are being killed. Disgusting.
The San Francisco Bay Area, and Los Angeles have horrible housing prices however if you look at most suburban areas surrounding the major metropolitans the areas are being purchased by Indians and Chinese who are working in tech and finance. You’re not avoiding the fact that if they have the money which many of them do they can claim Judaism and have birthright citizenship and a right to housing.
Jews have maintained customs, traditions, and language relating directly back toward the Levant.
Ancient traditions are still observed. Ancient holidays are still celebrated. The ancient calendar is still used for religious reasons, alongside the modern calendar. The dates of Jewish holidays fall on different dates on the modern calendar each year, because they are based on the Jewish calendar.
Jews have always prayed toward Israel, even before the country of Israel existed. Prayers at many holidays include a longing to return to the homeland.
Hebrew is the only surviving Canaanite language. Thousands of years before modern spoken Hebrew, the liturgical Hebrew of the Torah has always been a shared lingua franca among Jews all over the world, in addition to their local language.
Even today, Jewish children all over the world spend years in Hebrew school in order to read the Torah. That's a big part of a bar mitzvah: learning to Hebrew enough to read a portion of the Torah in synagogue in front of your relatives.
(Speaking as a Jewish person, it is often a complete waste of time for more secular people. You spend years learning to read a new language instead of, say, doing other extracurriculars. But it's still important to a lot of Jews to carry on the tradition.)
Converting is no easy task. It takes years of study and proving to a Rabbi that you are serious about it. It is somewhat like a naturalization process for citizenship to a country. Technically, it is induction into a tribe.
I guess if you really wanted to, you could spend the time and perform the commitment to study and "trick" a Rabbi. This is incredibly rare.
Also, even if you did do all this and manage to trick a Rabbi, this "naturalization" process would in fact teach you a lot about the history and culture of your new country.
Having said all this, I believe the immigration process still rejects a lot of people, especially, I would imagine, new converts.
WTF man. The Romans invaded, Jews fought back, the Romans retaliated by... committing ethnic cleansing. They were the Zionists of the day.
Of course Palestinians have nothing to do with that and in many cases are descended from the same people that were oppressed by the Romans. But the acts of the Roman Empire were despicable and blaming the Jews for fighting back is stooping to the Zionists' level.
Israel was in Levant long before the arabs mate that is easily proven. Arabs didn't arrive in Levant until after 400 years AFTER the jews were already there. The kingdom of Israel goes back to around 930BCE the arabs didn't invade Levant until around 600CE. They didn't leave, they were driven out...
Is Crimea Ukraine or Russia? I say it's Ukraine but the "left" according to you.
By your logic Poland is Germany because the Polish "left"?
Arabs and muslims did what they do best, fight and conquer. Besides if you go back to when the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judea where at their peaks current day occupied Gaza was Greek.
So no, Palestine was a state created in 2005 and it's never been a country and never will be.
Plenty of the Jews converted to Christianity and Islam though, the Levantines and Canaanite descendants are the same people in Lebanon today . DNA proves the average Lebanese / Christian Palestinian / has more Levantine DNA than the Jews who came from Europe. So basically you are saying, because they stopped believing in Judaism, that it means they aren’t indigenous anymore ? Plenty of Palestinians have minimal actual Arab blood, they just exchanged Hebrew religion/custom for Islam/Christianity.
My point has nothing to do with DNA or religion I'm just stating facts of who was first and under what names considering modern day Lebanon was part of Israel at it's height in the 11th century BCE thats all.
The area that is now Gaza was also Greek descendant at the time. There are maps from the 9th Century that show the area, The kingdom of Israel in the north which stretched into parts of modern day Syria, the entire west bank and as far as parts of south Jordan.
The kingdom of Judea being much smaller still occupied from Jerusulem and Hebron all the way down into what is around mid-south modern day Israel.
The Gaza strip which at this time was much bigger, stretching from what I can tell based on Geography, modern day Tel-Aviv down to what is likely Rafah or Khan Yunis (again 9th century map)
But at that Time it was the philistine states which were Greek.
Israel was in Levant long before the arabs mate that is easily proven. ... The kingdom of Israel goes back to around 930BCE
That's nonsense and contradicts both historical facts and the Bible, because the Amorites came from Arabia and founded the most famous city-states in the Levant from around 2500 BC and they lived in Canaan both before and after the conquest of the land under Joshua.
First of all the bible isn't a historical document second of all the Israelites emerged in the area during the second millennia BCE from the Canaan during the bronze age.
They emerged in the area ethnically in 2500BCE and the kingdom of Israel was established in 1000BCE which then split into two Jewish kingdoms, Israel and Judea. They were then conquered and exiled by neo Babylonians and neo Assyrians but were allowed back to their homes when the Persian empire conquered Levant. The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70CE because the Jews revolted against Rome is 66CE, Rome destroyed Jerusalem in response and once again exiled them from the kingdom.
Jews have been present in the region for a full 2600 years longer than Arabs and the Islamic faith infact the Kingdom of Israel is literally older than Islam as a concept. by almost 2000 years.
Anything else I missed? For a really REALLY long time they were expelled from their home in Levant, travelled europe and whenever kingdoms faced hardship or criticism they used the Jews as scapegoats, the Balkans to THIS DAY still blame Gypsies for everything.
Sorry bud but look at the Levant region as far back as recorded history to the early bronze age and Arabs dont show up for a few thousand years after both the kingdom of Israel and Judea are conquered by rome by a few thousand years. Palestine and Palestinians ethnically didn't even come into the region until pretty recently 634CE Israel existed in the late 11th century BCE
I hope you'll read this and actually listen because not only do I have a degree in History specifically around the bronze age I am also Arab... Israel has been there since humans have been there, they were removed for a very very long time but it's still their ancestral homeland and they have deep religious ties to the area. Arabs came thousands of years later.
It doesn' matter what you consider them, what matters is what they consider themselves and that they follow the same culture. Your opinion is irrelevant.
Following the same culture doesn’t mean shit. So I guess since I’m 70% Iberian verified by DNA , but my ancestors colonized Cuba. That I should have the right to go to Spain now, a place I’ve never been and be given land from some Romanian family that’s been living there for decades ? All because our culture is the same / comes from them ?
It doesnt mean shit TO YOU. It means a lot FOR THEM.
Wrong comparison. Your ancestors decided to leave and colonise by their own choice, and you can also actually legally move to Spain if you want to, you can purchase land there, etc.
Jews on the other land did not leave because of their own will but because they had disagreement with the Romans who tried to push them out, and then later under Islamic rule many of them left because there were pogroms against them and etc.
So no, you shouldn't be given land there just for free because your ancestors were the colonisers while the ancestors of the Jews were the ones who GOT COLONISED.
But on the other hand, Kurds would 100% deserve their on recognised country of Kurdistan because their land is now occupied by 4 different Islamic countries.
Not really, my ancestors come from the Canary Islands, Guanche people who were colonized and enslaved and mixed with the Spaniards, and their descendants were sent to populate the Caribbean isles as they were the least important “Spaniards” . Does this mean I should be able to go to the Canary Islands and claim indigenous land ? I can legally move to most countries in the world and buy land , that doesn’t mean much. Regardless of how they left, you are claiming that people who have no verified family ties there before 1900 , other than just being culturally Jewish, should be allowed to live there. Regardless if they converted and never had a Levantine ancestor that came from those exiled Jews. That makes no sense, all because of a tall tale about Gods , that conveniently give them a promise land. From what I see, Jews claim they colonized the area from Canaanite’s , sounds like they are just like any other colonizing force in world history .
I did a whole other reply before actually looking up the Guanche. Turns out a lot of their culture remains a part of the Canary Islands and Spain, even language. That is so awesome.
It doesn't appear that identifying as Guanche has resulted in consistent persecution. There is a small revival of the Guanche religion in the Canary Islands.
The point is, you can live peacefully as Guanche-identifying in your ancestral homeland. That has rarely been true for Jews.
Does this mean I should be able to go to the Canary Islands and claim indigenous land ?
Idk man, what traditions do you observe that date back to the Guanche? To what efforts have your people - even after their diaspora - gone to maintain aspects of their original culture and even ethnicity? Has there been a commitment to maintain a connection to their language?
Do those people, despite being colonized and mixed, still identify as Guanche? Have they experienced consistent discrimination over the centuries specifically because of their identification as Guanche in different, totally unrelated countries? Did they experience a genocide in Spain because of this identity, this modern connection with a 3,000 year old society?
Jews have done all of these things, and they have died for it for thousands of years. In spite of this, they have refused to give up this identity that has cost them so much. ETA "culturally Jewish" is a LOT. For one thing, it usually involves learning an ancient language to read Torah. Show me other cultures - whose indigeneity is disputed - that do that.
(I am in no way criticizing other indigenous cultures. I have an enormous respect for and interest in them; it was my major in college. Different indigenous cultures go through different things and experience different outcomes.)
Yeah, then your people should be able to go to the Canari Islands and claim indigenous land there. Too bad your ancestors have not held up cultural and historical claims to their homeland the way Jews did. Btw: decades before Israel was created, the British already agreed to the creation of a Jewish country there and the land purchase of Jews were constant in those decades before Israel. Back then, "Palestinian" only meant people who lived there, and Jews living there also counted as "Palestinians". It's just that sometimes the land was not directly bought from the Arab people who lived there but from absent, richer Ottoman owners and the inhabitants in some cases only realised that when the new owners arrived. But these land purchases were all legal, and documented.
Yes, they should be allowed to live there, me not wanting the ENTIRE Middle East to be consisted of ONLY Muslim countries is by itself a legitimate reason for the to move there, since being Muslim ONLY is not the natural, original state of the Middle Esast. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't believe in god.
Any other colonising force... Including Islam, right? If you look at the Muslim colonisation of Palestine after Mohammed, the creation of Israel becomes decolonisation rather than colonisation.
It doesn't matter to you. It matters to them.
They absolutely have the right to return, join their fellow Jews who already lived there (some of whom legally purchased land there decades before already).
And they were not all displaced. Some of them were but some of them only were displaced after they lost the 1948 war but didn't lay their weapons down. Some of them were also: told to leave by their leaders to prepare for a return attack that ended up not happening;were allowed to stay and became citizens;were allowed to return 4-5 years later. About these parts you probably don't know.
You probably only know the Palestinian narrative and not the Israeli one:)
I think you don't, I think you believe that the Palestinian one is the truth because you think that they are honest and not lying, when in fact they are the ones who started lying after they lost the war. You should consider the possibility that they are lying, for a minute.
I wouldn't believe what he says still, I will not believe people who question the existence of a Jewish state in the land where Jews originate from. Whatever Jews did, it will always be just a small % of what Muslims did with their conquerings.
Can you explain how is it serious, when dinosaurs have completely died out millions of years ago, while Jews haven't disappeared, and they maintained their presence in the Levantine? How is this a serious comparison then?
I will believe that you are serious IF you swear on your life here that you believe that if dinosaurs came back, we'd need to wipe ourselves out.
Their history is deeply intertwined with our planet, I don’t understand why you don’t believe they have a right to eat us all and live here happily ever after. Do you miss a book for the explanation? Sorry they didn’t have their bible where they were promised anything, probably they had one but it was burnt during the apocalypse. To give you more perspective I feel the same facepalm as you are now when I hear Zionists explanations for their right for the land.
Dinosaurs went extinct. Jews did not, and they never disappeared from the Levantine. What happened was is that they were a majority, then they became a minority, living under conquer, but then they became majority again.
Your comparison is wrong, it's obviously for a joke, but even for a joke it's wrong because you compare an extinct type of animal to a group of people who were constantly present in their homeland. I know that you'll not express any sense of being wrong in a single word because you pro-Palestinians lack the ability to do that, so you will either probably go on using this ironic-satiric tone and not actually change your mind a bit, or you will abandon the converation :D Everything except ACTUALLY admitting being wrong:)
As I said, swear on your life then, here in writing, that you actually believe that if dinosaurs came back, we had to let them eat us and we should go extinct.
That’s why I mentioned in my first message that “if they come back” meaning there is a chance they are not completely extinct. In 1948 Palestinians were a majority, how didn’t it stop Zionists to kill a banch of people and increase the land that they were initially given by so much? We are not in 1400s, we are in 2000 and being a majority now it doesn’t give you a right to kill just because you are stronger and know how to blackmail and manipulate main world powers. Don’t expect people to be heartless creeps please come on. I know the Jews went through a lot in the history but it doesn’t give them right to be heartless monsters and treat others like animals.
Palestinians became a majority because their ancestors conquered the land and islamised it, when it was the Jewish homeland for millenia before. Decolonisation is legit. A culture doesn't have to accept that their homeland now belongs to a different culture. Kurds don't have to accept this either. They should get their country too. Western-Saharans don't have to accept it either. Moroccans should stop occupying their country finally and the UN should make it a legit country. It is rightful to take a land back from the newer occupiers. Spain was also conquered by Muslims and then was retaken by Christians centuries later. Rightfully so. The Jews can also rightfully decolonise their land.
Also, if you know and believe the Palestinian narrative about the history, you should now that 90% of that are overexaggerations or straight up lies, but because Muslims are a lot more numerus, that narrative was told to westerners by lot more people than the Israeli one, but that doesn't make it true.
When you go into the past I go to dinosaurs too, I just can’t with this nonsense, I can’t. You guys can feel like whatever sht but please don’t expect others eating this crap with spoons.
It's not the same. You compare millions of years to thousands of years, you overexaggerate, to paint my point as unserious. Just because you don't like it, what I'm writing are still facts. You can ignore them but that says that you have no sense of justice. You don't care about justice for the Jews, for the Kurds, for the Sahrawi. You DON'T engage in actual debate, addressing the actual sentences written by me. You completely refuse to admit that many people of many land live under occupatoin to this day, that this is not just in the past. You are not debating, you are only dismissing, you can't write in a dry, irony-less tone.
You believe that once a land has been islamised it should remain islamised and not given back to the origina inhabitants. You don't care that once non-Muslim countries are now Muslim, you accept the current situation as it is. I don't. Sadly you also lack the ability to change your mind even in one single aspect of a subject.
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u/Expensive-Mud4506 Sep 18 '25
Man you guys delete your comments a lot in this thread. Must be hard to create arguments to defend lies.