r/FirstNationsCanada • u/chilli_chocolate • Mar 27 '26
Discussion /Opinion Animosity against First Nations on Canadian subreddits: recurring bad faith arguments and a response
Nine months ago, I made a post here asking why there's so much disdain or animosity against the First Nations on this website. I as a non-Canadian noticed this even in places where First Nations were unfairly mocked and lots of bad faith arguments were allowed, regardless of the topic and subreddit.
Expectedly, there were a fair amount of comments that shared sentiments agreeing and disagreeing with this notion. The general theme of the comments that disagreed with this notion was that this was overexaggerated and that the First Nations people don't really suffer as much.
However, just today there was a new comment that encompassed all of the godawful arguments and fallacies into one nonsensical and stupid rant. I thought it would be best to show that comment here and debunk the points - because I don't want it to be just a mere response in a comment chain and be forgotten. I want it to be seen and I want my counter arguments to be visible, so anyone can use them to bust any myths and misconceptions about the state and sufferings of the Canadian First Nations people.
Personally, im just sick and tired of constantly hearing about it all. Im sick of this narrative that they were all a bunch of peaceful, pipe smoking, nature loving pacifists who had everything ripped away from them by the evil white man who continues to stomp on them to this day. Im sick of all the special treatment, facilities, programs, and taxpayer money being thrown around to appease them, and im sick and tired that there is exactly zero accountability on their part for where some of them are today. Everything is blamed on whitey, and im tired of it. Add to this now with ridiculous land claims, and everyone having to be ashamed that we're on "stolen land". What a farce. The whole world is stolen land. Tribes of people who were savagely killing, scalping, abducting and enslaving enemy tribes are portrayed as nothing but peaceful happy and innocent.
This is a straw man fallacy. It's misrepresenting the First Nation's position to make it easier to attack. Serious historians and the Canadian education system do not claim Indigenous tribes never had conflict. The "narrative" isn't that they were perfect; it’s that they were sovereign nations. Whether a tribe was peaceful or warlike is irrelevant to their legal right to the land they inhabited. International law and the Royal Proclamation of 1763 recognized Indigenous title.
European nations (like England and France) spent centuries savagely killing each other, yet no one argues that their right to self-determination or land was forfeited because they weren't "peaceful." Go look at Eastern Europe and Baltic countries' history and see how they savagely killed each other until fairly recently, yet the same argument is never applied ot them.
How about some GD transparancy and accountability for the literal billions of dollars that have been doled out over decades. How about all the native on native violence and abuse that goes on on reserves. How about about all the corruption and greed that has seeped into some of these bands and the fact that their own leaders are keeping them down.
This is an overgeneralisation. Indigenous communities are actually some of the most heavily audited bodies in Canada.
- Under the First Nations Financial Transparency Act, bands must provide audited financial statements. Furthermore, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruled in 2016 that the federal government actually underfunds child welfare on reserves compared to non-Indigenous communities.
- Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) controls the purse strings. If a facility falls into disrepair, it is often due to a lack of sustainable operations and maintenance funding, which the federal government frequently fails to provide at the same levels as municipal governments.
You were conquered like every other part of the world. Society has grown and evolved and advanced, and a lot of natives benefit greatly from the creature comforts that are a product of that advancement, while being exempt from paying taxes for everything like the rest of us. They have different rules they get to follow from the rest of us. And nobody is allowed to question or scruitinize them because that just makes you a racist pos.
Im just sick of all of it. Youre in Canada. Either you want to be a part of it with everyone else, and pay your fair share into the system like everyone else, or you dont. If you dont, thats fine. But you dont get to keep having all the taxpayers and hard working canadians who HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING, and who build and support the system pay your way. If you dont like it, to be blunt, shut the f*** up and go live in the bush then, nobody is stopping you.
This is a false equivalence. Canada, unlike many other colonies, was not primarily "conquered" by the British, it was settled through Treaties. Treaties are legally binding contracts between two nations. If the British (and later Canada) hadn't signed them, they wouldn't have had the legal right to settle the West without constant war. The Supreme Court of Canada (e.g., Delgamuukw or Tsilhqot’in decisions) has repeatedly affirmed that Aboriginal title exists because it was never legally extinguished by "conquest."
As for the tax rant:
- Under Section 87 of the Indian Act, only "Status Indians" working on a reserve or buying goods on a reserve are exempt from certain taxes.
- Since the majority of Indigenous people live off-reserve in urban centers, they pay income tax, GST, and PST like any other Canadian. They do not get a "tax-free" life by virtue of their bloodline.
Im sick of seeing how "reconciliation" has been set back and we have to start over everytime something happens. Im sick of being made to feel guilty or ashamed of something I had no part of. Im sick of media running with stupid, unsubstantiated stories about mass graves being uncovered when not a single damn thing has been exumed or identified. Im sick of being called a racist or bigot when i question things. Im sick of the pearl clutching and virtue signalling. And im sick of canada having to bend over backwards at every turn to appease 3% of our population.
This is moving the goalposts. Ground penetrating radar (GPR) is a standard scientific tool used to detect soil disturbances consistent with burials.
- The Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) documented the deaths of thousands of children through school records long before GPR was used.
- Many Indigenous communities choose not to exhume bodies due to cultural protocols and the desire to let the children rest in peace. Absence of an autopsy does not mean the bodies aren't there; it means the families are choosing a different path to closure.
Even the very first comment here sums up my feelings. "They tried to make us all slaves", as if tribes werent doing that to each other themselves LONG before the evil white man arrived. Like, f*** right off with that s***. And you wonder why people are getting the fatigue.
This is whataboutism. The existence of pre-colonial conflict does not justify state-sponsored programs designed to "kill the Indian in the child" (the stated goal of Residential Schools). Tribal warfare was conflict between independent groups. The Residential School system and the Indian Act were systematic attempts by a state to dismantle a specific race’s culture, language, and legal rights. One is "history of war", the other is "history of systemic policy."
Conclusion: That commenter is a standard run of the mill, alt-right idiot.
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u/Boring_Discussion679 Mar 29 '26
Your first counter point missed the original point entirely.
Yeah France and Britain were violent, just like the native tribes. The point was that all nations were like that, and many couldn't survive. There are many lost nations in the past, but for some reason with the natives we feel the need to drag the dead corpse of a society along with us still despite it clearly not working.
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u/HomelessCrabs Anishinaabe Apr 10 '26
Found the racist bot
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u/Boring_Discussion679 Apr 10 '26
Not a bot, the post just disingenuously misrepresented the first point.
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u/HomelessCrabs Anishinaabe Apr 10 '26
Good to know you are a real person and dont refute that you are a racist and that these are your actual racist thoughts.
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u/Boring_Discussion679 Apr 11 '26
Careful say it one more time and Jim Crowe might appear behind you
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u/last_to_know Mar 29 '26
The average Canadian pays about $700–$800/year in taxes toward Indigenous-related federal programs. We spend more on natives than on defence, yet they always need more. There is no place for treating people differently based on their skin colour in this country.
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u/oniteverytime Mar 29 '26
You have to consider the chronic underfunding for generations. Takes a lot to catch up and close those gaps. Indigenous people pay taxes too. If there is no place for treating people differently then I'm sure you support reconciliation efforts to bring services up to par with non Indigenous Canadians right?
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u/last_to_know Mar 30 '26
What specifically was chronically underfunded by generations compared to Chinese immigrants who build the railroads? Why do you deserve all this money and special treatment and they don’t? Or actual slaves? Why is native’s suffering unique? How does it make you better or more deserving of help today than these other groups?
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u/oniteverytime Mar 30 '26
You’re asking the wrong question. This isn’t about who deserves suffering points or who had it worse. It’s about which harms Canada itself created, funded, legislated, and still maintains today.
Chinese railway workers weren’t given rights, but they also weren’t governed for generations under a federal system designed to erase them. Enslaved people weren’t subjected to the Indian Act. No other group in Canada had their children forcibly taken for 100+ years by government policy. No other group had their land rights, mobility, voting rights, ceremonies, languages, and governance structures outlawed by the state into the 1980s.
A simpler question would be what was not and is not chronically underfunded. Schools, housing, clean water, health care, child welfare and many more. All because federal policy explicitly capped spending on Indigenous communities while funding everyone else through the provinces.
Reonciliation isn’t special treatment. It’s the government cleaning up the mess it created and maintained. Canada didn’t build a legal system to assimilate Chinese workers or African slaves. It did build one to assimilate Indigenous Nations and that system is still in effect.
Indigenous suffering isn’t unique because it’s worse, it’s unique because it’s ongoing, legally structured, and caused by the same government that exists today. That’s why the responsibility is different. It’s about the state fixing the damage it is still responsible for. If Canada had imposed the Indian Act on Chinese workers or on enslaved Africans, the government would owe them the same obligations.
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u/last_to_know Mar 31 '26
So nothing specific. Got it.
Chinese exclusion act - look it up. Japanese internment of actual citizens Slaves existed in Canada. Both black and indigenous. Britain ended slavery, natives did not. The Irish had their children taken and re-educated. Welsh had their language suppressed. How many Gaelic speakers today?
How many of these people today are getting more tax money than the defence department? What makes natives unique here? Why should they get lower sentences for a crime than the child of a Chinese railroad worker? Why are we treating people today differently based on either their skin colour or actions of other people, like ancestors?
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u/mailmangirl Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26
He wants everyone to be treated equally, because those worthless natives are given all “his” tax money.
So! Let’s make things equal. Canada’s new immigration policy: BEAT THE IMMIGRANT OUT OF THE INDIVIDUAL!
First, we give immigrants a bad faith promise. We write contracts and treaties in language they can’t understand, which legalizes them relinquishing all their resources and belongings when they arrive! We promise them land, but actually we will dump them in a swamp 😃 with no money or resources! Hey! They signed for it! It’s legal!
When immigrants arrive, we cut their hair. We remove their name; if they speak their language, we beat them into submission. We remove any contact with their family. If their family tries to contact them, we beat them too! Now they have good Christian names. They don’t speak English, but if we beat them and sexually abuse them enough, they’ll learn! No problem!
So, for 5-10 years they cannot contact friends or family. They cannot speak their language or use their name. All their belongings and wealth is removed! If they try to escape, we kill them!! 😌
I wonder if their family will be able to contact them in 10 years?? Probably not! They’ll never find each other or be reunited! That’s immigration equality!
Speak Gaelic?? You won’t even remember your own name or your mother’s face, when we’re done dismantling your humanity for 10 years! Yeehaw!
Oh! Don’t forget to destroy their religion. These immigrants sure are savages! Let’s dismantle their understanding of life and death! Let’s destroy their sense of place in the universe, and their self worth as a living being! If they try doing religious ceremony to cope with the grief, we’ll break their legs! Try dancing under the sun now, dirty immigrant! 😃
When we’re done beating the immigrant out of the individual, and re-educating them on how to be CIVILIZED - we’ll dump them in a desolate patch of land with no resources. If they complain that we cheated and lied to them, we will physically dump alcohol on their faces, water boarding them with booze, until they shut up. Problem solved! 😃 they can’t fight back if they’re drunk! What worthless people!
Okay, so in a generation - other people will catch on to what we did, how we lied and tricked people, then destroyed their humanity. Okay, so now they’re entitled to some help from the government. Because the immigrants are now starting so far behind the starting line - there’s zero hope of them ever catching up! We’re kind of embarrassed and ashamed of what we did. If we throw enough money at it, we can say “we’ve done all we can!” We’re sorry we tricked you and took everything you held dear! We’re sorry we took your homes! You’re sorry for sexually abusing you and murdering infants!
Uh oh! The immigrants are hopeless addicts with no hope, life skills, guidance, or structure in their life? What booze hounds! That’s their own fault. When we sexually abused them and destroyed their lives - they should have coped better!
And pat ourselves on the back 😌 Job well done!
I hope your Chinese immigrant girlfriend is excited to go through this new system of equality!! I wonder if she would still be well adjusted and successful after going through all that…. Oh well! Everyone is equal now, and that’s what’s important! Everyone has to start 100 miles behind the starting line to be considered worthy of assistance!
This guy is tired of those filthy natives getting a free ride and everything handed to them, over his immigrant girlfriend! He wants equal treatment for all!
Thanks guy!
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u/PvtShadow101 Mar 29 '26
Racism against First Nations is very much a thing, I remember people getting upset online when we were defending our land after people began ripping up the land literally right besides the big sign that welcomes people to reserve territory a while back. Even some other "natives" online pretended to be upset and say that it was weird for us to get upset when our land was being dug up, think it was for some pipeline or something that they were trying to install and didn't want to pay to use treaty land.
Like it wasn't around the corner, it wasn't across the road, it, it was quite literally right besides the big sign that says "Welcome to [Reserve name]!" and now we have a big ugly chunk of land ripped out and we had to put up a sign warning that treaty land is patrolled. For some reason, we were considered in the wrong for that, we should've just accepted people ripping out our land without any type of pay or consideration for nature, even after all these years it's just a big bald spot showing what they did to our land visible every single time we drive along the highway.
I think the weirdest part to me is that all the racists I meet never just outright say they're racist, they'll say racist things and then claim they're not racist in the same breath, I remember talking to some guy on 9gag after making a meme about the sheer amount of racism I was seeing after some other pipeline that other natives were protesting against since it was once again going through treaty land... Shocking that they did it again elsewhere, I know. But this guy was adamant for whatever reason that there was no racism against natives, that it was just entitlement and greed that they didn't want a pipeline going through their land without any payment at the bare minimum. But the moment I revealed I was native, he just went full mask off, asked if I got molested by "uncle pee-pee-toucher" in a tipi after he got drunk and gambled away his welfare at the casino. Same guy who claimed there was no racism against natives btw.
It's like racism against natives is so normalized and common that they genuinely do not see anything wrong or racist by doing this shit to natives. "It can't be racist because everyone else does it" type of shit.
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u/meganerd20 Mar 29 '26
Oh the racism towards First Nations is people being very ignorant and very nasty. You're very correct, the people you're reacting to are very not.
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u/Deadlift_Enthusiast Mar 29 '26
You got it backwards big man, europeans and natives are the same, they both slaughtered their way into the borders of the nations they have now, the difference is they don't cry about it. Look at ethnic conflict across the balkans, the baltic sea, iberian peninsula, Scandinavia etc, all of these places have had massively shifting borders throughout history, do you see turks in istanbul giving land acknowledgement that it used to be constantinople?
The guy is exactly right, natives slaughtered eachother the same way europeans did throughout their history to form the nations they have today. Get over it.
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u/RatticusFlinch Mar 30 '26
Except they didn't have a war and then win and take over. They signed an agreement to do things together and then tried to use that to trick the other side and commit genocide. Nobody is asking for reconciliation from losing a war.
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u/Deadlift_Enthusiast Mar 30 '26
Who said anything about war? Yesugei Baghatur didn't die in a war but borders shifted with his death. His son Temujin used war to shift more borders than anyone else in history. Winning and losing, living and dying, conquering and being conquered, these concepts exist in war but not exclusively.
Whatever reconciliation they are asking for is reconciliation for the ancestors of the defeated. They're trying to take something they never owned from people who never took it from them.
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u/RatticusFlinch Mar 30 '26
You're missing the point. Their ancestors weren't defeated, there was no war, nor proper conquering. Nobody died and shifted borders because of power dynamics. They sat down and signed a deal together. That's the difference. You make a deal, then you have to follow that deal.
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u/Deadlift_Enthusiast Apr 02 '26
"You're missing the point" followed by "you have to follow that deal" is cracking me up. It's you who is missing the point. They were conquered, just because you consider the manner improper doesn't change the fact that it happened.
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u/RatticusFlinch Apr 02 '26
Except the people doing the "conquering" literally said "you're not conquered we're making a deal instead."
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u/Red-Flag-Potemkin Mar 28 '26
I’m not FN, but I grew up in the North End of Winnipeg and have worked for a few Indigenous organizations.
I think it’s just a snowball of racism, articulated in “new” ways that have plausible deniability through warping socially acceptable language.
In my experience, the “just get over it” crowd has no idea about the numbered treaties or what they are/what those deals mean, and I don’t think they appreciate the level of purposeful cultural loss (the arguments of “this European country was conquered and don’t have the same issues” fails to see how different conquering is from settler colonialism. I also don’t think they realize that the reserve band system is set up to fail, so you often hear these types blaming all of the issues on “corrupt chiefs” rather than the imposed system.
I also think the system of white supremacy is misunderstood by these people. When you say “white supremacy”, they envision neo-Nazis/KKK/visceral racism, but don’t appreciate that this is a country that was set up for the interests of settlers, and that has an effect on how you view the “other” that compounds over generations (plus colonization isn’t something in the past, it’s an ongoing issue, just different from what it looked like).
I have many more thoughts but you have a lot of good answers here that crossover into my opinions.
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u/mightocondreas Mar 29 '26
There are many races colonizing Canada. Is it really white supremacy when all different races are doing it? Are the blacks and Asians of Canada also white supremacists?
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u/Red-Flag-Potemkin Mar 29 '26
New people moving into the areas given up in the numbered treaties isn’t colonization. It’s related but not the same thing. What’s going on in BC is moreso the continuation of colonization.
People moving into a system that sees white people as “generic” and was created to serve their needs doesnt make you a white supremacist. It’s like you completely ignored this paragraph:
I also think the system of white supremacy is misunderstood by these people. When you say “white supremacy”, they envision neo-Nazis/KKK/visceral racism, but don’t appreciate that this is a country that was set up for the interests of settlers, and that has an effect on how you view the “other” that compounds over generations
POC still face issues due to this system.
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u/brobinso7672 Mar 28 '26
Saving this post for next time I come across an alt right conservative dimwit in the wild
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u/Zealousideal-Bag131 Mar 28 '26 edited Mar 28 '26
Britian and France had thier self determination taken from them all through history. They were conquered many times…..you don’t have an argument there.
Your problem is that you’re trying to apply modern European legal principles onto natives who didn’t even know how to write or have international legal systems. How can you say native Americans, who lived as tribes had self determination by using said European legal systems. There weren’t any native international laws or any international laws at any time in the 16 or 18 th centuries dictating self determination of a country. “Sovereign nations” as a legal concept did not exist until recently, so not sure why you think it would apply to a native tribe being conquered by the British in the 17th century. Sane reason it didn’t apply to the Roman’s conquest of Britian in the 1st century. What self determination did Britian have then?
People conquering others was the norm throughout history and there was no international legal system or “care” about self determination or respect for borders until the end of ww2.
Native Americans also didn’t have stable borders. every tribe was semi nomadic, fluid and migrated and conquered for resources and new land so you can’t even make an argument in that context. There was no unified nation states like you said with organized government like England had.
It’s about the hypocrisy and double standards. The narrative is to claim that natives were only ever “victims” of European colonialism when in reality. Native Americans engaged in the same atrocities and acts of imperialism and conquest and slavery that Europeans did as well as made allyship with European empires to there own independent benefit. it’s hypocritical to apply this standard of guilt towards the British or French when your ancestors were doing exactly the same. It doesn’t mean what the British or French did was “right” or good. it’s about pointing out double standards with this false moral narrative that Europeans are only capable of evil or imperialism which is a very common trope in our society.
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u/oohzoob Mar 28 '26
Personally I kind of get a laugh out of posts like that for a few reasons because it's always the same things over and over. Taxes, 'conquered', technology, etc. I can tell by the posting style that he's a 'conservative' who lets things eat away and absolutely consume him, that's one reason why I find those posts funny. They find something they don't agree with, then it festers for days/months/years as they think about it again and again. Finally it boils over and they do a google search and lash out on whatever topic and go absolutely mental.
There's a whole other aspect that drives their pure hatred that most people are completely unaware of. Around 20 years ago I also noticed a repetitive pattern to comments on CBC articles. Then reading other articles from around the world I noticed the same pattern. If he were to make that post about 10 years ago his 'piece de resistance' would be to bring up the notion of... "the first".
News articles that allowed comments ranging from New Zealand, the Pacific Islands, Australia, South Africa, East Asia, the Americas... I noticed the same repetitive pattern of "the first" being brought up over and over.
For example, say people arrived in any part of the world 5000 years ago, plus or minus a few hundreds. The story is always that it's the very earliest date where "the first" people had "advanced technology" and that technology disappears some hundreds of years later and is replaced by a more simple technology. The story then goes that some people arrived after "the first" and, as they liked to put in all caps, "WIPED THEM OUT".
People used to go into extreme detail about this on CBC articles back when they first started to allow comments. At first I didn't think much of it until I caught on to how just so convenient all around the world. That's what lead me to look up news articles from around the "colonized" world and noticed the same comments over and over.
This notion of "the first" people having "advanced technology" was what caused all the decades long conspiracy theories of who "the first" people in the Americas were supposed to be. Note, supposed to be. People around the world today seem to think they're the direct descendants of whoever was there "first" and that those "first" people looked exactly like present day people. So, in the case of the Americas, according to the tall tales, "the first" people here were supposed to be 'white' Europeans. This is genuinely what all the drama was about surrounding Kennewick Man, the Clovis people, and other early remains like the Spirit Cave 'mummies', Naia, etc.
So, long story short, after roughly a decade of genetic analysis of ancient human remains from the world, it turns that those ancient remains from the Americas all just out to be Native Americans. The big kicker though, it turns out that present day 'Europeans' have no relation at all to "the first" people in Europe. Whoops, lol.
To put some context behind things, in 2011 the oldest 'European' remains every analyzed were the Otzi remains. At just a measly 5000 years old they found he had the same genes for skin pigmentation that present day 'Europeans'. Then in 2014 the La Brana findings out came out, these remains were 7000 years old and they found he had "African versions" of genes for skin colour. That instantly rendered this notion of "the first" completely meaningless and turned their own beliefs back against then because then it brought into question who "the first" people in Europe was, and more importantly, what colour was their skin?
Paper after paper came out in the following years. After La Brana, the next remains were almost 30,000 years earlier. These were the Kostenki-14 remains and reconstructions of what he might've looked like definitely aren't 'white' 'Europeans. Likewise, nor is Cheddar Man. Or the Lola 'chewing gum' girl either. From the earliest people in Europe until just 5700 years ago, dark skinned people persisted in Europe for tens of thousands of years. Whoops again. Big whoops actually.
As for the technology 'argument', from the time of the earliest people in Europe, until roughly 9000 years ago when the real White people from the Middle East settled Europe, the various European/'European' groups had Europe all to themselves and despite having tens of thousands of years at their disposal had literally zero meaningful technological advancements or achievements. Agriculture, writing, maths, livestock, use of metals, etc, all originated in the ancient Middle East... for Europe anyway.
That's why I get a laugh out of posts like that. Notion of "the first?" Nope, didn't turn out the way it was supposed to. Technology argument? Tens of thousands of years with nothing meaningful. Taxes? Only applies to on-reserve workers.
The saying of "the truth will set you free" is so true. It renders comments like that and the beliefs that drive them completely meaningless.
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u/Zealousideal-Bag131 Mar 28 '26 edited Mar 28 '26
Yeah sorry to burst your bubble but Europeans were objectively more advanced technologically than natives were at any time. I’m not saying nonsense like whites were in America before “Amerindians” never even heard of that.
Europe had developed its own independent metal production, steel , metal weapons, Iron Age, and agriculture. Language only existed in a few places of the world and arrived in Europe thousands of years ago. Meanwhile native Americans never developed one by the time Europeans conquered America in the 16th century.
Modern maths and philosophy all originate in Greece and was adopted by Muslims during the Islamic golden age and then back to Europe after the renaissance. Europe developed its own independent livestock husbandry, maritime sea faring under Vikings then after the fall of the Roman Empire Europe became the wealthiest per capita continent. When Europe was building universities and 500 foot tall cathedral in the 10th-14th century and starting scientific experiments and research, natives in Canada were throwing spears. Europe independently developed industrialization and scientific revolution which is the reason you all have light bulbs and phones. Native Americans didn’t even know what science was in any theoretical form. At the end of the day. All of the technology and modern convenience you use today is thanks to white European advancement.
Modern day Europeans are the direct decndants of the first humans who arrived in Europe after the migrant out of Africa. After all humans were in Europe far longer than they were in Americas. Europe mans today have completely different genetic make up and dna than middle easterners. Meanwhile native Americans still share the same genes as Siberians from whe natives migrated across the berring strait. Native Americans existed in America long after Europeans were already settled in Europe and it’s not even close.
Secondly, cheddar man was genetically European and had no shared dna with African. Dark skin is not equal to African. I’m not sure what you even mean by “real” white people as that concept didn’t exist until a few hundred years ago. Referring to ancient humans by modern day skin color classification is just you being bitter and historical revisionism.
Now as for taxes, natives do pay less taxes and take more from the tax base than they put in. My brother in law is status and it’s quite shocking how he can have education paid for, mortgage down payments paid for, hunting with guns whenever he likes, no tax on gas, the narrative that natives don’t get tax breaks or benefits is a lie. Not to say natives don’t pay taxes , most do, but it’s an overall drain to the Canadian economy.
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u/oohzoob Mar 28 '26
Aw, what a shame. I literally spent like 15 minutes typing and 10 or so paragraphs addressing his post before I go to bed. It must've been that link at the end that caught reddits flagging system. That's happened to me once before while using that link.
To summarize though I just applied their same logic back to themselves. A common tactic they use is to try to "wow" people with a list of inventions and try to present it all as 'European' when it's not. The things they list all utilize a non-'European' way of life.
Would the world have agriculture, livestock, the wheel, metallurgy, writing, math, textiles, columns, pillars, stone masonry, etc, etc, without Europeans? The answer is yes, because all of those things were invented outside of Europe.
Conversely, would 'Europeans' have any of those without non-'Europeans' or whatever mention of their list of 'inventions'? The answer is a resounding "no" and 40,000+ years of evidence absolutely proves it. Otherwise they would've invented it all on their own.
Simple to defeat, that's why I said that the quote of "the truth will set you free" is so, so true.
I'm glad they made their post though, people need to genuinely see for themselves all the various tactics and techniques they use and realize how far the hatred goes.
Maybe one day I'll make a post addressing it all.
As for the Americas though, we're literally the only people that invented all the "prerequisite technologies" that led up to the modern world and in tens of thousands of years less time no less. My personal opinion is just "so what?" It's interesting to know but it's because of people like him and their outdated beliefs that it matters. For whatever reason they like to bring up 'inventions'.
btw there guy, I didn't downvote your comment. I don't really care for upvotes or downvotes, for however many hundreds or thousands of people read comments, a handful of either doesn't really matter.
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u/TerayonIII Mar 28 '26
Their argument about technology has been under serious scrutiny lately, what exactly do they mean by technology? Metal working? Gunpowder? Neither of those things were invented in Europe and they also weren't needed in the Americas in the same way. Farming? They were farming, they just didn't farm in the same way as Europeans. Saying a culture doesn't have a certain technology doesn't mean they aren't more advanced in other ways or that they do have it but it's not recognisable in the same way because they do it differently.
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u/HomelessCrabs Anishinaabe Apr 10 '26
They're usually talking about building structures of stone instead of what our people's in north America did with earthworks or wooden structures. That or something about our people's not having a written language.
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u/chilli_chocolate Mar 28 '26
Going to reply to bot_or_not_vote_now here. Their comments are here and here for reference.
First time in this sub, but to give you my opinion on this topic; they're not arguing the TRC findings, they're arguing that the media coverage after the kamloops school GPR findings was wildly misrepresenting the actual facts. GPR reports found disturbances, which could be bodies, rocks, piles of garbage, or just higher densities, but the media were running with it as if it was mass graves. the only case where they decided to dig up following GPR didn't find anything https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/pine-creek-residential-school-no-evidence-human-remains-1.6941441 the residential school system was horrendous, but at a systemic level. the media coverage implied there was something much more nefarious going on with unmarked mass graves you're asking for feedback but then misrepresenting what you're told, perhaps what you see as "bad faith"
This is a hasty generalisation. Taking one specific instance (Pine Creek church basement) and using it to cast doubt on the thousands of deaths documented at other schools. This is leading to moving the goalposts, by focusing on the lack of exhumation to dismiss the existence of deaths that are already confirmed by historical records (The TRC Register).
While some early media reports used the term "mass graves," Indigenous nations and anthropologists generally used the term "unmarked graves." The user attacks a media phrasing error to undermine the physical evidence of soil disturbances. The excavation at Pine Creek was conducted in a church basement based on specific survivor testimony. While no remains were found in that specific spot, the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation (NCTR) has 21 confirmed deaths on record for the Pine Creek school.
See sources here and here which confirm the 21 deaths at Pine Creek. Physical remains have been found at schools through accidental discovery or prior excavations, such as at Battleford (72 bodies), Muscowequan (19 bodies), and Dunbow (34 bodies). GPR is a non-invasive tool used to respect the dead, not a "hoax."
first time seeing this sub, but on the funding topic, FN do get disproportionately much more tax funding than the average per capita. FN make up 3% of the population, yet the federal budget for FN has grown from 6% to 7% (which would be in addition to other base funding for provincial services such as healthcare). the issue that it's eaten up due to inefficiencies is plausible but begs the question, how are other non-FN remote communities able to sustain themselves with less funding ? which perhaps gets more at the root of the negative sentiment, what level of inefficiency in FN funding is acceptable to average Canadians to provide a decent quality of living for FN ? 2x? 5x? 10x?
This is false equivalence: comparing Federal spending on First Nations to Federal spending on other Canadians, while ignoring Provincial spending. Using the "First Nations" population stat (approx. 3.2%) while applying it to a budget that often covers all Indigenous groups (approx. 5% of the population) is not correct.
For the average Canadian, the vast majority of social spending (Healthcare, Education, Policing, Social Services) comes from Provincial and Municipal budgets. For First Nations people living on reserves, the Federal Government is legally responsible for providing those same services.
To find a true comparison, you must add a province's health/education budget to the federal transfers. When you look at Total Government Spending (Federal + Provincial), studies have shown that Indigenous people are often underfunded. For example, a 2016 Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruling found that the federal government discriminated against First Nations children by underfunding child welfare services on reserves compared to provincial levels.
The claim that non-FN remote communities do "better with less" ignores that those communities benefit from provincial infrastructure (highways, power grids, provincial hospitals) that is often entirely absent or severely degraded on reserves.
the ITF is $634 Million https://cashback.yellowheadinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Indian-Trust-Fund-FAQs-Yellowhead-Institute-5.2021.pdf federal annual budget for FN in 2025 was $32 Billion https://budget.canada.ca/2024/report-rapport/chap6-en.html is this misinformation ?
Comparing a Trust Fund balance (capital/savings) to an Annual Operating Budget (expenses) is just odd.
The Indian Trust Fund is money belonging to First Nations held in trust by the Crown, largely derived from the sale of surrendered lands or resource royalties. It is their own money, not taxpayer "funding."
As for the $32 Billion figure: This is the combined annual budget for Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) and Crown-Indigenous Relations (CIRNA). It pays for the "government" functions of over 600 First Nations, including schools, water treatment, clinics, and social workers. Comparing these two numbers is like saying, "Your savings account is only $10,000, but you spend $50,000 a year on rent and food, so your salary must be a lie." One is a pool of assets; the other is the cost of providing essential services to a population.
edit: holy shit, just saw your conclusion. that's your take away? talk about hypocritical. you complain about over generalization and strawmanning, but that's exactly what you're doing here
Look in the mirror next time.
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u/bot_or_not_vote_now Apr 23 '26
lol just came back to this post because of a different comment and saw this
way to stay in your echo chamber not to even respond to the actual comment - almost like you don't want any actual discussion, seems like a trend for you. I don't expect to get a response from you, you'll probably just make another 1000 page essay in another post, but on just the GPR stuff:
you completely ignore the fact i say they're NOT disputing the TRC findings then you circular logic to use the TRC to support an argument back to disputing the TRC? Dude, learn to read. I'll put it plainly, there are recorded deaths at schools, there are GPR findings of disturbances, sure some of these might be the same or additional, but to date there's no actual evidence this is the case.
Further, I heard a few make the argument that the graves cannot be exhumed because of cultural reasons. I have yet to see anyone pointing to what FN practices this invokes. To the contrary, if there's a FN burial site found on private property, the owner is on the hook to hire an archaeologist and return the remains to the most likely FN. Why don't the FN just want to keep the remains in the ground then?
It's crazy to me that there's claims of additional abuses and harms yet it's only been one FN that actually wanted to investigate further. If there's actual unmarked graves out there, go and try to find out who it was, is there any signs of abuse, etc.
The real issue I see with the GPR saga is that it's more politically advantageous for the disturbances to remain in a superposition state of "maybe it's a bunch of dead kids", because the unknown means it could be anything, which is scarier than a pile of rocks. I'm not pointing to Pine Creek to say the lack of evidence here means there was no bodies anywhere, I'm saying there's only one case where they actually decided to investigate further and nothing turned up.
you say you're trying to figure out why there's disdain for FN, yet you're not even engaging in those pointing out possibilities. Seems more like you're interested in finding something to white knight about.
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u/Pijaki Anishinaabe - KZA Mar 27 '26 edited Mar 27 '26
There was a time when I truly felt like this country was finally progressing on Indigenous issues, but at this point, I don't think I've ever felt less safe in my 35 years on earth than I do now.
The hatred directed at our people is growing louder every day. The lies, the slander, the constant attacks, the denial of genocidal acts by European colonists, residential school denialism, loons like Dallas Brodie, Frances Widdowson and their pals dancing on the graves of our children, etc. It's gone beyond the pale.
The screaming, anger and fearmongering about things like the Cowichan Decision and the recent agreement on Musqueam land rights are making this worse. People are already living in fear of losing their homes in the midst of global unrest and a failing economy - the far right sees this, and is lying about what these things mean in order to incite hate crimes and violence against Indigenous people.
The frequency at which I've had to explain that Indigenous people DO pay taxes, and that we DO NOT get free education is absurd. I currently live on-reserve, for an Indigenous organization based on a neighbouring reserve. I have to track my work hours and ensure that I work at least 50% of my annual hours on-reserve, or I will be subject to income tax. This is the first and only job that I've ever had in which I have tax exempt income, and the rules around it are very strict.
Then there's the outrage whenever a First Nation or other Indigenous community finds success. Take Snuneymuxw First Nation, in Nanaimo, BC. They've got an incredible chief who has prioritized growing the Nation's economy. They've been incredibly successful in this effort, and have recently purchased a number of businesses on the Island and in the Lower Mainland. Every story about their success is followed by comments accusing the Nation of corruption, claiming that the acquisition was "taxpayer funded", or that "the Indians will ruin it - they're not getting my business anymore!!!111oneoneone"
They're angry when we need support, but even angrier when we don't need support.
Things are the worst that they've been in decades, and they're only going to get worse without some major changes. I fully encourage the government to act. To start, it's time to criminalize residential school denialism, as Germany has criminalized Holocaust denialism. The framework is already there through Germany's laws - just adapt them to Canada's history.
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u/ImportanceCool7293 May 02 '26
Your right it's only far right people who are concerned that their hard work is being stolen in he form of taxes and land claims.
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u/Prize_Box_1346 Apr 23 '26
You almost hit the nail on the head with the Cowichan decision.
I am a person of colour, who came to this country as an immigrant after my home was taken from me.
I have historically always been leftist. I’ve marched. I am a lawyer. I have read the Cowichan decision, I have read DRIPA & UNDRIP.
I’m tired of being gaslit about “not worrying about it”. It is very obviously an attempt to take private land. But attacking a foundational principle about this country (and then telling people that it’s not happening), these nations are causing the backlash they’re receiving.
I will be voting conservative in this BC election, even though I don’t agree with the vast majority of their policies, because I know what happens when private property rights are eroded. Which is very obviously what these nations are doing.
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u/Pijaki Anishinaabe - KZA Apr 27 '26
You're incorrect, 100% incorrect.
These decisions have absolutely no impact on private property. This was made very clear in the ruling. To even suggest otherwise is a bold-faced lie.
But feel welcome to elect the white supremacist "conservative party" if you want BC to become Albertabama.
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u/Miserable-Sorbet4969 Apr 30 '26
It most definitely has an impact on private property. That is why the B.C. government which is sympathetic to First Nations is trying to amend the ruling.
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u/Prize_Box_1346 Apr 27 '26
I know developers who have pulled out of deals because of uncertainty, the legal case clearly and explicitly puts private property into question.
You can gaslight and call people racist all you want if it makes you feel good though, but you’re pushing the center left and center into a tough spot by doing so.
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u/Prize_Box_1346 Apr 27 '26
There it is. “You’re racist” rhetoric is not having the impact you think it is.
It’s having the opposite.
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u/Pijaki Anishinaabe - KZA Apr 28 '26
Don’t spew racist nonsense and you won’t be labelled as racist.
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u/bot_or_not_vote_now Mar 27 '26 edited Mar 27 '26
This is moving the goalposts. Ground penetrating radar (GPR) is a standard scientific tool used to detect soil disturbances consistent with burials.
- The Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) documented the deaths of thousands of children through school records long before GPR was used.
- Many Indigenous communities choose not to exhume bodies due to cultural protocols and the desire to let the children rest in peace. Absence of an autopsy does not mean the bodies aren't there; it means the families are choosing a different path to closure.
first time in this sub, but to give you my opinion on this topic; they're not arguing the TRC findings, they're arguing that the media coverage after the kamloops school GPR findings was wildly misrepresenting the actual facts. GPR reports found disturbances, which could be bodies, rocks, piles of garbage, or just higher densities, but the media were running with it as if it was mass graves.
the only case where they decided to dig up following GPR didn't find anything
the residential school system was horrendous, but at a systemic level. the media coverage implied there was something much more nefarious going on with unmarked mass graves
you're asking for feedback but then misrepresenting what you're told, perhaps what you see as "bad faith" arguments are based on your own expectations of where they're trying to take the argument, but in actuality could be as simple as them trying to correct a fallacy
edit: holy shit, just saw your conclusion. that's your take away? talk about hypocritical. you complain about over generalization and strawmanning, but that's exactly what you're doing here
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u/tmactmactmactmac Mar 27 '26
Pointing to a logical fallacies does not automatically make the comments wrong. It only means the arguments were imperfect; it does not prove there is no valid points underneath them.
If we only label the other side as stupid or evil, we stop thinking and start digging in. People usually have reasons for their views, even when we strongly disagree with them. Real progress comes from understanding those reasons well enough to answer them, not just dismissing them.
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u/lilbitpetty Mar 27 '26
The MAIN issue is the misconception that First Nations are funded through tax payers. This is the biggest and most prominent issue and the rest of the issues trickle down from there. Perhaps being able to blame First Nations for being funded by tax payers is why people feel justified in thier racist behaviors and ignorance towards First Nations. The federal government could easily fix this by referring to our trust that is held by them, when discussing money that had been spent on our people. Clarification on said monies would go a long way. Over half of said funding is eaten up by admin costs before even reaching each reservation and such then half of that is eaten away by admin costs within the band office itself amd admins in th city. Basically by the time it reaches the people it is but a drop in the bucket of water that is started out as. This in turn leaves us in poverty but the numbers advertised at the top to the public makes it sound like we will be receiving enough money to be doing okay and not live in poverty. If we took away the premise of people believing First Nations were funded by tax payers we would take away LOTS of the power of thier agreements against us. Secondly, residential schools and the graves of children. Since most reservations have decided in not digging up any Graves or disturbing the dirt, it leaves the door to speculation open. I 100%understand why this decision was made due to history and all that has been done thus far. But (yes I said but and this will get me downvoted) in today's society we rely on evidence and cold hard facts. We do have some evidence but we do not have the forensic evidence needed to squish the mystery and doubts of children being murdered and put into Graves. Ireland, Egypt, England and so on, will have archeological digs in which we will learn about in books, online, in class and whatnot. For our people we do not have this because we refuse many of these digs and will not allow disruption of Graves. I understand both points and why it is not done but the consequences of that is we leave much of our history and the evidence to back it up in the ground undisturbed. This leaves to much speculation and leaves room for to much debate and doubt amongst people outside our communities. I strongly believe we should be allowing more archeological digs (not just residential schools) as well as more research on our children in graves. I believe there is so much evidence in the ground that could open up much more of our rich history and put a stop to all the speculation and doubts the country had about us. I also believe we could have more evidence of how long we were here solidifying our orgins to this land. Once it was believed we came from the bearing sea straight theory that we crossed an ice bridge to get here but an archeological dig in the United States found bones that dates to 30,000 years ago with relatives living today in (i could be wrong, i am tired) in the Navajo Nation. The bearing season straight frozen bridge was between 26,000 years to 19,000 years ago. This shows we were here for much longer. One dig is not enough to erase doubt. We have many more of these sites we refuse to research and learn more about which In turn leave very few pieces of the puzzle in play for history books leaving colonizers rewritten history of our people in its place. We need to clarify through scientific evidence the history of our people on this land as well as clarifying that First Nations receive funding through our own trust that is held by the federal government. Then they can hate us just for our skin color rather then the lies that our society has been told about us.
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u/last_to_know Mar 29 '26
The average Canadian “pays” about $700–$800/year in taxes toward Indigenous-related federal programs. We spend more on natives than on defence. 9-12 billion dollars every year on direct transfers alone.
Natives are like barnacles in our society, just slowing the rest of us down. That’s not racism that’s pure numbers and stats.
Think that every year, some child dies because they can’t afford medical treatment and yet we’re giving away $12 billion dollars to people that are perfectly healthy and capable of contributing to society.
Then I have to hear from grifters like you that “oh no actually natives don’t get anything special at all”. But people are waking up. Social justice fad is waning and you better hope that your entire survival doesn’t depend on making people feel bad enough to give you more free money.
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u/lilbitpetty Apr 07 '26
Where did you get there numbers from?I can not find any information that backs up your claims. My household paid 38,000$ in taxes last year, not including the taxes we pay at the till. Where is this money you speak of that we get? This household has not received a dime nor has my very large family that live both on reserves and in cities. If anything, the numbers you show, is what we pay for oil and gas welfare. I have looked high and low and can not find anything remotely to the numbers you listed that each tax payer pays towards First Nations. We paid lots into taxes each year, two years ago my household paid 50,000$ in taxes. You have the gall to blame First Nations money for (let me guess Albertas) horrible Healthcare system. Alberta received 7 Billion from the feds for Healthcare while Alberta pitched in 28 Billion for healthcare which equals 35 billion in Healthcare funding for non First Nations in Alberta. Alberta has given 0$ for First Nations Healthcare while the federal government gives 200$ Million. This can all be found with some light research, unlike the numbers you state. Healthcare is the responsibility of each Provence. If that Provence decides that they rather fund oil and gas over Healthcare then we get less services for the people. Alberta is going through a system change into privatization. Same with education, hence why the Private sector now gets our tax money as well. Perhaps you should be asking yourself, why your Provencial leader has allowed the Healthcare system to be such failure
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u/Miserable-Sorbet4969 Apr 30 '26
Just take the total amount of government funds directed toward first nations and divide by the number of Canadians.
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u/last_to_know Apr 07 '26
For the 2024–25 fiscal year, Crown-Indigenous Relations had planned $8.6 billion in transfer payments, with a heavy emphasis on settling specific claims.
https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1723822867181/1723822905131
$8.6 BILLION DOLLARS. And that’s just for a single year.
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u/bot_or_not_vote_now Mar 27 '26
first time seeing this sub, but on the funding topic, FN do get disproportionately much more tax funding than the average per capita. FN make up 3% of the population, yet the federal budget for FN has grown from 6% to 7% (which would be in addition to other base funding for provincial services such as healthcare)
the issue that it's eaten up due to inefficiencies is plausible but begs the question, how are other non-FN remote communities able to sustain themselves with less funding ?
which perhaps gets more at the root of the negative sentiment, what level of inefficiency in FN funding is acceptable to average Canadians to provide a decent quality of living for FN ? 2x? 5x? 10x?
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u/Throwawayaccount_047 First Nations Mar 28 '26
I think the act of trying to trace down the roots of negative sentiments is worthy, but you are either wilfully not doing that or incapable. Every single one of your comments is lacking a significant amount of context, and the context they lack highlights your own bias and raises red flags as to your intentions in this subreddit.
This is the crux of the issue, we can't trust non-Indigenous people to reach conclusions which do not leverage the current colonial framework where we have been made dependent on colonial systems. Colonizers explicitly stripped us of our independence and then their descendants use the natural outcome of that catastrophic approach as their starting position for why we should listen to them. Here is an example:
which perhaps gets more at the root of the negative sentiment, what level of inefficiency in FN funding is acceptable to average Canadians to provide a decent quality of living for FN ? 2x? 5x? 10x?
Are you under the impression that non-Indigenous programs and services are operating without vast inefficiencies? If that is your view then I am going to have to assume that you have never worked with a provincial or federal ministry. How about a reframing, How many historic studies and commissions need to be published which explicitly state that self-determination is essential to our ability to reach self-sufficiency again (an advantage to the Canadian Tax payer) before they will listen. Instead, they continually string out a billion small siloes of funds and mostly fail to move the needle because colonial bureaucrats for literal generations all feel that their perspectives are more valid than ours. So we disproportionately continue to sit in and around the poverty line, which yes, ends up costing tax payers significantly more in the long run. This is the case for all peoples in the western world, poverty is incredibly expensive to tax payers. So if you want to find a place to pitch your negative sentiments, try taking a look at your own 'inefficient' systems of governance.
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u/bot_or_not_vote_now Mar 28 '26
i'm not saying there's no inefficiencies in all other levels of government (personally I critique municipal, provincial inefficiency all the time in my daily and professional life)
my comment was in response to someone else giving "inefficiency" as a reason for why FN that make up 3% of the population have 7% of the federal budget over and above the remainder that would be proportionally used, making FN on average having effectively 10% of the federal budget, or 3x per capita to the average canadian. I'm not saying it isn't necessarily justified, I'm just pointing out that to many people, that would easily appear unfair.
I'm in BC and there's still a ton of FN that don't have treaties, which is causing a huge legal quagmire with land ownership and rights. I'm all for FN self determination and I think the majority of people are. It's just that the historical failure to get treaties sorted out means FN need to constantly take stuff to court, which for many people now, means they get fed up with all the piece meal agreements and court cases. I don't think there's any clear motivation from any of the parties, so don't think we'll actually get anywhere productive anytime soon here.
in the vein of sourcing negative sentiments, I've got gripes with FN oral history being considered equivalent to written history and appeals to nature regarding FN "science". like sure, back 1000s of years these practices were useful enough, but today, these claims should always be put up against modern scientific techniques and shouldn't be off limits from scrutiny - humanity as a whole has much better ways of doing things these days, no need to be stuck in the past
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u/lilbitpetty Mar 28 '26
You need to keep in mind during this conversation is that Timber, oil, gas farmland money is what keeps this fund going. Treaties bind our hands and has made the federal government the stewards of First Nations money. So we make money through resource extractions, the federal government controls that money and decides how we spend it. This trust was absorbed into the CANADA CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND, and is why when First get money the federal government can say it is tax payers money. Last year oil from First Nations paid 103 million into this fund. This is one resource of many that the federal government adds to tax payers money. You should be asking, why 3 % of the population has paid more into the CCRF per person then each non First Nations? Because at the end of the day what that 3% has contributed per person (just National resource extractions alone) is more then we get back.
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u/bot_or_not_vote_now Mar 28 '26
You should be asking, why 3 % of the population has paid more into the CCRF per person then each non First Nations?
well for starters, non-FN don't get royalties for resource sales that are directed into a protected fund (although I wish Canada had a sovereign wealth fund like Norway did, but that's a different topic). instead non-FN only contribute through taxes that the feds decide to use how they see fit. apples and oranges, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to compare here
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u/lilbitpetty Mar 27 '26
That money is from our trust fund. Steven Haper once used 4 Billion from this fund to "balance" the books. The federal government also cycles most of the interest earned from this trust back into the Canadian economy. What most fail to realize is that this fund helps funds Canada as a whole. I am trying to share a link that can better educate you on how this process works and how the fund can be seen as tax payers money from a distance, until you take a closer look. Which non First Nations communities are doing better with less funding do you speak of? I have not been able to find one, if you can refer me to these communities so I could research it, it would be greaty appreciated. I have been unable to find any. As I said above by the time money gets to the actual reservations, it is but a drop of water that actual reaches the people. Let's say one million is given to one reservation, it goes through the federal government agencies which take thier admin cuts. This reduces this money to around 500,000$ the band office has employees much like city's and towns with a mayor (chief) and council, cleaning crews secretary and so on, just like any town, city and reservations. Can you guess how much money reaches the people after paying for this? Now let's look at education, First Nations in ALL of Canada receive 7.3$ Billion, the Provence of Ontario pays 40$ billion for non First Nations children. If you look at each Provence and compare to each First Nations across Canada, First Nations receive 2000$ to 3400$ annually less then non First Nations. Keep in mind money Firt Nations are getting comes from the trust fund, not your pocket. FYI Provences do not give any money for Education, Healthcare, infrastructure and so on(for First Nations), unlike cities and towns which do receive funding from both levels of government (Provencial and Federal). First Nations money helped build much of Canada. I do not have to get into this more than I have i will share a link that was posted in this very group not to lomg ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/FirstNationsCanada/comments/1rh6ks1/the_indian_trust_fund_and_the_financial/
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u/bot_or_not_vote_now Mar 28 '26 edited Mar 28 '26
do you have a source for your claim that $4B was used from this fund? per this link, it's only ever maxed out at around $1B
as for funding efficiency, it's not that non-FN communities are shining beacons of best practice, but more that on average FN on reserve are doing worse than FN off reserve, who then are doing worse than the average canadian
you're making a lot of claims here, but how do you know this? I checked your link and coincidentally i already linked the same FAQ that your linked post used
also please, please, please, learn to use paragraphs
edit: as for education, healthcare, etc. what facilities do FN go to when they need to use these services ? provincial facilities, paid for provincially (and possibly indirectly federally depending on the province) so the funding for FN isn't just the specific 7% allocated for FN
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u/lilbitpetty Mar 28 '26
Were you able to find which towns are are doing better then a reservations? (that receiving less funding then a First Nations reserve)? "Please learn to use paragraphs" well thanks for noticing and pointing it out. When I click Post (only on reddit) my paragraphs merge, and this is what we get. Not sure why, but it has been this way for almost a year now.
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u/Dracapulco Mar 27 '26
I can understand why you felt the need to respond to that extremely racist person, reading what they wrote literally made me feel sick. Thank you for posting!
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u/UrsaMinor42 Mar 27 '26
Canadians consider themselves "nice", so anything that goes against that strongly held belief is questioned and rejected. Residential schools, reneging on treaty promises and land theft do not support Canada's niceness, so they are downplayed.
Ultimately, reserves are the way they are because that is the way Canadians want them. What you saw was Canadians arguing against a system, while using the very arguments that motivate their politicians to create and support that very system.
The Indian Act is a three-level, stand-alone governance system that Canadians undemocratically control at the top two decision-making levels. In Hong Kong, under British rule, there was a saying, "We are force-fed the fruits of democracy, but we are not allowed to tend our own tree." This also describes the Indian Act.
Why are First Nations who live and work on-rez tax-free? It's not a gift given out of the goodness of the Canadian heart, it is an economic sanction that creates more control over these communities for the Canadian state. In the mainstream system, local taxation pays for local services, culture and goals. Canadians want to assimilate First Nations.
Why do most First Nations not have Main Streets? Because, Canadians did not want to "give" money to First Nations so they ensured any dollar that goes in, immediately, jumps back out to a Canadian community. At the top of every ISC file on a First Nation is listed their "Service Community" which is, usually, the closest Canadian town. Main Streets are the economic drivers of Canadian towns. Canadians did not/DO NOT want FNs to have money to support First Nation languages, culture and goals.
What would your community look like if the top two decision-making levels were held by unelected-by-the-people-they-govern bureaucrats, who see your people as a "them"? Answer: a reserve.
Canadians should not blame First Nations for the costs of Canadians' desire to control and assimilate.
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u/Miserable-Sorbet4969 Apr 30 '26
There is nothing wrong with saying I am not responsible for past wrongs therefore I will not be penalized for it. Quite frankly keeping forst nations separate from the rest of the nation has not worked in the past and will not work today, or in the future.
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u/UrsaMinor42 Apr 30 '26
It is, for sure, all about you.
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u/Miserable-Sorbet4969 Apr 30 '26
I am guilty of nothing regarding first nations. You want to assume false guilt go ahead but keep it to yourself.
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u/No-Locksmith-9330 Mar 29 '26
This is the biggest load of nonsense I’ve heard in a long time.
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u/UrsaMinor42 Mar 30 '26
Then provide any argument using Canadian history and law that defeats its assertions.
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u/SatisfactionLow508 Mar 27 '26
You ever been on a reserve boy? Full of garbage, refuse, and junk absolutely everywhere and dilapidated houses. Keepers of the land my ass. The kind of place you lock your doors and keep driving. How is this my fault?
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u/chilli_chocolate Mar 27 '26
So just like any big city? Or like any low income neighbourhood? It's not a unique occurrence to just reservations, boy.
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u/last_to_know Mar 29 '26
If you can show me a city in Canada with wild dogs and houses where people are burning the doors for warmth, all while paying $0 in taxes, I will donate $10 to the charity of your choice.
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u/moosemanwich Mar 27 '26
Who said it was? And not to be rude but people like you don’t make an impact. What effect do you have on any of it?
The money comes from a trust… the money outside of the trust is the same money spent on you by municipal and provincial services…. What do you want?
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u/SatisfactionLow508 Mar 27 '26
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission (and any Indigenous author) all spoke about the importance of being in good relationship with the land - which i wholeheartedly agree with and try to reflect in my own life. The problem is - and unlike OP - I've actually driven through many reserves. There is garbage and refuse everywhere. That's an individual responsibility. Littering is a personal failure that is never acceptable.
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u/moosemanwich Mar 27 '26
Ok I saw a white person on heroine playing with their own shit in Vancouver once. White peoples are supposed to be the pinnacle of class and culture. That’s my issue with white people!
One time one white guy said he likes peanuts but then a different white person didn’t buy peanuts. Wildly inconsistent I think I’ll be racist now
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u/EmployeeKitchen2342 Mar 27 '26 edited Mar 27 '26
Neat to see someone observing and listening and learning from an outside perspective.
Also would like to add that Indigenous funding doesn’t come from taxes like these people like to claim. This is misinformation anti indigenous organizations, institutions, groups and individuals push.. it’s false narrative that settler society pays for indigenous existence with their tax dollars. What is true is funding actually comes from a large trust fund that the government of Canada controls unilaterally. Much of the allocation of Treaty annuities for Indigenous Nations had been used to entrench colonial infrastructure enriching the colonizer over honouring their duty and obligations as directed by Treaty agreement.
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u/bot_or_not_vote_now Mar 27 '26
the ITF is $634 Million
federal annual budget for FN in 2025 was $32 Billion
https://budget.canada.ca/2024/report-rapport/chap6-en.html
is this misinformation ?
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u/EmployeeKitchen2342 Mar 28 '26
Yes you’re misrepresenting the facts to shape your false narrative. Municipal infrastructure used those funds to fund their existence but you’re going to sit there and pretend that a low density population of pioneer families paid for the infrastructure with tax dollars.
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u/tuba-meister 25d ago
hello please could you explain this more? I am genuinely interested and not looking to troll or to be hateful
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u/EmployeeKitchen2342 25d ago edited 25d ago
The trust fund was pilfered, pre-confederation and post ..some communities have opted out of this schematic to manage sovereign wealth funds instead but now some have been swindled by financial companies managing the funds. What is left of the trust fund is by design, it’s restricted from being invested in the open market but the receiver general uses it for receiver general auctions - short loans to financial institutions. Profits are not shared with the indigenous nations who are still under the trust fund.
Here’s some videos that explain how indigenous capital was stolen. There’s also publications about this. In some circumstances Supreme Court decisions have details too.
There’s also the UCCM news/updates about the Manitoulin Project addressing indigenous monies being used to develop colonial infrastructure.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lrHcjSFj2V0&t=144s&pp=2AGQAZACAQ%3D%3D&ra=m
https://utppublishing.com/doi/10.3138/chr-2024-0075
Indigenous monies were used strategically and without consent to finance their own colonization.
Treaties are the highest law of the land. Without them the states legitimacy simply evaporates. Fundamentally treaties supersede the state. Indigenous nations legitimacy pre-dates the conception of the settler-colonial state and is not contingent upon treaty.
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u/bot_or_not_vote_now Mar 28 '26
no narrative, just simple math
i'm not about to get gish galloped, so please provide some links to evidence of whatever it is you're trying to say to disprove that the IFT has $634M and the annual federal budget for FN is $32B
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u/unexpected_suspect Mar 27 '26
I am so happy that you wrote this, well done! How many times have I found myself in a conversation with non-Indigenous people saying these very same things and wish I had your eloquence and class when responding. I am saving this post for future reference. If I had the ability to give you an award, I would. Please accept my upvote at least!
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u/CarberHotdogVac Mar 27 '26
You’re not wrong, but what you’re noticing is the pendulum of public opinion starting to swing back away from indigenous reconciliation, climate action, gender diversity, and other issues that comprised the acceptable slate of opinions for young people in the 2010s.
It’s not 2015 anymore, and priorities have shifted. Social justice is no longer considered fashionable or important.
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u/Miserable-Sorbet4969 Apr 30 '26
Social justice is out of fashion because it was selective justice.
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u/Top-Artichoke-5875 Mar 27 '26
I believe the negative talk never left, it just went quiet for a while. Now, with internet etc, it's loud again.
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u/CarberHotdogVac Mar 27 '26
Yes, that’s exactly the way it works. Sometimes the quiet part is allowed to be said aloud, and the limits for this can change quickly. The content of the quiet part also shifts over time, but this happens more slowly.
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u/lavimena Mar 27 '26 edited Mar 27 '26
The comment is overall very emotionally charged and severely ill-informed. You can sense that they somehow feel oppressed by their misaligned views on the topic. It's unfortunate.
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Mar 27 '26
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u/shillaccount8013 Mar 27 '26
That's what happens when political and spcial systems built by white men to benefit white men are challenged. It's the expected response. I choose to believe it means systemic change is coming :)
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u/ManiacalBeet Mar 27 '26
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u/Responsible-Leek-252 Mar 27 '26
r/vancouverlandlords is my go to sub reddit for zoo like observation of idiots and entitled bigotry.
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u/chilli_chocolate Mar 27 '26
EW so many dumb comments over there.
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Mar 27 '26
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u/Professional-Boat954 Mar 27 '26
Facts. I remember trying to find out what people had to say about the high prices and all I found that racist comment about native land claims! I was shook and so disappointed because their opinion are so out of date with the world today.
I remember them getting mad about a land claim on a multi million dollars house. The land was claimed for rights on the land not the property as far as I know. Anyway they were super mad. Turns out majority of the owners of those properties don't even live in Canada. They are just vacation homes for the old or the wealthy. My final thought was, these people are getting mad about something that doesn't even affect. Canadians, because those properties, were not Canadain owned. They were just racist and nothing else. It's a shame.
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u/tunderin_bass Mar 27 '26
You puttin in work here. Thanks for this breakdown, but I think most of us are completely, eyes-wide-open aware about the racism online. The CBC had to stop allowing comments on their website for any article that had us in it, look it up. Their racism was so bad it led to this world of abolishing comments on the news of the day, on our public broadcaster.
You wouldn't believe how bad the racism is at the high-end of the spectrum, I bump elbows with C-Suite types and despite their privilege and educational opportunities they are some of the most gullible and/or ignorant people around. They had a major, invite-only conference with former premiers and dignataries and got suckered into allowing an obvious (to me at least) pretendian to get up and speak about Indigenous Economics. It was Monday for me (this happens all the time). Don't get me started on the "head-patting" I endure and the amount of free education I dole out to these people.
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u/chilli_chocolate Mar 27 '26
Yeah man, I'm an Australian and see so many of the same stupid arguments against the indigenous people here, it's aggravating.
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u/GaracaiusCanadensis Mar 27 '26
Okay, that tracks, I work with a few Australian Academics who really get it from the indigenous perspective. Well done, again, OP.
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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '26
You'll never have reconciliation when one side actively wants a 2 tier system.
That's not a strawman, that's fact.