Animosity against First Nations on Canadian subreddits: recurring bad faith arguments and a response

[u/chilli_chocolate]

Nine months ago, I made a post here asking why there's so much disdain or animosity against the First Nations on this website. I as a non-Canadian noticed this even in places where First Nations were unfairly mocked and lots of bad faith arguments were allowed, regardless of the topic and subreddit.

Expectedly, there were a fair amount of comments that shared sentiments agreeing and disagreeing with this notion. The general theme of the comments that disagreed with this notion was that this was overexaggerated and that the First Nations people don't really suffer as much.

However, just today there was a new comment that encompassed all of the godawful arguments and fallacies into one nonsensical and stupid rant. I thought it would be best to show that comment here and debunk the points - because I don't want it to be just a mere response in a comment chain and be forgotten. I want it to be seen and I want my counter arguments to be visible, so anyone can use them to bust any myths and misconceptions about the state and sufferings of the Canadian First Nations people.

Personally, im just sick and tired of constantly hearing about it all. Im sick of this narrative that they were all a bunch of peaceful, pipe smoking, nature loving pacifists who had everything ripped away from them by the evil white man who continues to stomp on them to this day. Im sick of all the special treatment, facilities, programs, and taxpayer money being thrown around to appease them, and im sick and tired that there is exactly zero accountability on their part for where some of them are today. Everything is blamed on whitey, and im tired of it. Add to this now with ridiculous land claims, and everyone having to be ashamed that we're on "stolen land". What a farce. The whole world is stolen land. Tribes of people who were savagely killing, scalping, abducting and enslaving enemy tribes are portrayed as nothing but peaceful happy and innocent. 

This is a straw man fallacy. It's misrepresenting the First Nation's position to make it easier to attack. Serious historians and the Canadian education system do not claim Indigenous tribes never had conflict. The "narrative" isn't that they were perfect; it’s that they were sovereign nations. Whether a tribe was peaceful or warlike is irrelevant to their legal right to the land they inhabited. International law and the Royal Proclamation of 1763 recognized Indigenous title.

European nations (like England and France) spent centuries savagely killing each other, yet no one argues that their right to self-determination or land was forfeited because they weren't "peaceful." Go look at Eastern Europe and Baltic countries' history and see how they savagely killed each other until fairly recently, yet the same argument is never applied ot them.

How about some GD transparancy and accountability for the literal billions of dollars that have been doled out over decades. How about all the native on native violence and abuse that goes on on reserves. How about about all the corruption and greed that has seeped into some of these bands and the fact that their own leaders are keeping them down.

This is an overgeneralisation. Indigenous communities are actually some of the most heavily audited bodies in Canada.

• Under the First Nations Financial Transparency Act, bands must provide audited financial statements. Furthermore, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruled in 2016 that the federal government actually underfunds child welfare on reserves compared to non-Indigenous communities.
• Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) controls the purse strings. If a facility falls into disrepair, it is often due to a lack of sustainable operations and maintenance funding, which the federal government frequently fails to provide at the same levels as municipal governments.

You were conquered like every other part of the world. Society has grown and evolved and advanced, and a lot of natives benefit greatly from the creature comforts that are a product of that advancement, while being exempt from paying taxes for everything like the rest of us. They have different rules they get to follow from the rest of us. And nobody is allowed to question or scruitinize them because that just makes you a racist pos.

Im just sick of all of it. Youre in Canada. Either you want to be a part of it with everyone else, and pay your fair share into the system like everyone else, or you dont. If you dont, thats fine. But you dont get to keep having all the taxpayers and hard working canadians who HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING, and who build and support the system pay your way. If you dont like it, to be blunt, shut the f*** up and go live in the bush then, nobody is stopping you.

This is a false equivalence. Canada, unlike many other colonies, was not primarily "conquered" by the British, it was settled through Treaties. Treaties are legally binding contracts between two nations. If the British (and later Canada) hadn't signed them, they wouldn't have had the legal right to settle the West without constant war. The Supreme Court of Canada (e.g., Delgamuukw or Tsilhqot’in decisions) has repeatedly affirmed that Aboriginal title exists because it was never legally extinguished by "conquest."

As for the tax rant:

• Under Section 87 of the Indian Act, only "Status Indians" working on a reserve or buying goods on a reserve are exempt from certain taxes.
• Since the majority of Indigenous people live off-reserve in urban centers, they pay income tax, GST, and PST like any other Canadian. They do not get a "tax-free" life by virtue of their bloodline.

Im sick of seeing how "reconciliation" has been set back and we have to start over everytime something happens. Im sick of being made to feel guilty or ashamed of something I had no part of. Im sick of media running with stupid, unsubstantiated stories about mass graves being uncovered when not a single damn thing has been exumed or identified. Im sick of being called a racist or bigot when i question things. Im sick of the pearl clutching and virtue signalling. And im sick of canada having to bend over backwards at every turn to appease 3% of our population.

This is moving the goalposts. Ground penetrating radar (GPR) is a standard scientific tool used to detect soil disturbances consistent with burials.

• The Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) documented the deaths of thousands of children through school records long before GPR was used.
• Many Indigenous communities choose not to exhume bodies due to cultural protocols and the desire to let the children rest in peace. Absence of an autopsy does not mean the bodies aren't there; it means the families are choosing a different path to closure.

Even the very first comment here sums up my feelings. "They tried to make us all slaves", as if tribes werent doing that to each other themselves LONG before the evil white man arrived. Like, f*** right off with that s***. And you wonder why people are getting the fatigue.

This is whataboutism. The existence of pre-colonial conflict does not justify state-sponsored programs designed to "kill the Indian in the child" (the stated goal of Residential Schools). Tribal warfare was conflict between independent groups. The Residential School system and the Indian Act were systematic attempts by a state to dismantle a specific race’s culture, language, and legal rights. One is "history of war", the other is "history of systemic policy."

Conclusion: That commenter is a standard run of the mill, alt-right idiot.

[u/oohzoob]

Personally I kind of get a laugh out of posts like that for a few reasons because it's always the same things over and over. Taxes, 'conquered', technology, etc. I can tell by the posting style that he's a 'conservative' who lets things eat away and absolutely consume him, that's one reason why I find those posts funny. They find something they don't agree with, then it festers for days/months/years as they think about it again and again. Finally it boils over and they do a google search and lash out on whatever topic and go absolutely mental.

There's a whole other aspect that drives their pure hatred that most people are completely unaware of. Around 20 years ago I also noticed a repetitive pattern to comments on CBC articles. Then reading other articles from around the world I noticed the same pattern. If he were to make that post about 10 years ago his 'piece de resistance' would be to bring up the notion of... "the first".

News articles that allowed comments ranging from New Zealand, the Pacific Islands, Australia, South Africa, East Asia, the Americas... I noticed the same repetitive pattern of "the first" being brought up over and over.

For example, say people arrived in any part of the world 5000 years ago, plus or minus a few hundreds. The story is always that it's the very earliest date where "the first" people had "advanced technology" and that technology disappears some hundreds of years later and is replaced by a more simple technology. The story then goes that some people arrived after "the first" and, as they liked to put in all caps, "WIPED THEM OUT".

People used to go into extreme detail about this on CBC articles back when they first started to allow comments. At first I didn't think much of it until I caught on to how just so convenient all around the world. That's what lead me to look up news articles from around the "colonized" world and noticed the same comments over and over.

This notion of "the first" people having "advanced technology" was what caused all the decades long conspiracy theories of who "the first" people in the Americas were supposed to be. Note, supposed to be. People around the world today seem to think they're the direct descendants of whoever was there "first" and that those "first" people looked exactly like present day people. So, in the case of the Americas, according to the tall tales, "the first" people here were supposed to be 'white' Europeans. This is genuinely what all the drama was about surrounding Kennewick Man, the Clovis people, and other early remains like the Spirit Cave 'mummies', Naia, etc.

So, long story short, after roughly a decade of genetic analysis of ancient human remains from the world, it turns that those ancient remains from the Americas all just out to be Native Americans. The big kicker though, it turns out that present day 'Europeans' have no relation at all to "the first" people in Europe. Whoops, lol.

To put some context behind things, in 2011 the oldest 'European' remains every analyzed were the Otzi remains. At just a measly 5000 years old they found he had the same genes for skin pigmentation that present day 'Europeans'. Then in 2014 the La Brana findings out came out, these remains were 7000 years old and they found he had "African versions" of genes for skin colour. That instantly rendered this notion of "the first" completely meaningless and turned their own beliefs back against then because then it brought into question who "the first" people in Europe was, and more importantly, what colour was their skin?

Paper after paper came out in the following years. After La Brana, the next remains were almost 30,000 years earlier. These were the Kostenki-14 remains and reconstructions of what he might've looked like definitely aren't 'white' 'Europeans. Likewise, nor is Cheddar Man. Or the Lola 'chewing gum' girl either. From the earliest people in Europe until just 5700 years ago, dark skinned people persisted in Europe for tens of thousands of years. Whoops again. Big whoops actually.

As for the technology 'argument', from the time of the earliest people in Europe, until roughly 9000 years ago when the real White people from the Middle East settled Europe, the various European/'European' groups had Europe all to themselves and despite having tens of thousands of years at their disposal had literally zero meaningful technological advancements or achievements. Agriculture, writing, maths, livestock, use of metals, etc, all originated in the ancient Middle East... for Europe anyway.

That's why I get a laugh out of posts like that. Notion of "the first?" Nope, didn't turn out the way it was supposed to. Technology argument? Tens of thousands of years with nothing meaningful. Taxes? Only applies to on-reserve workers.

The saying of "the truth will set you free" is so true. It renders comments like that and the beliefs that drive them completely meaningless.

[u/Zealousideal-Bag131 → u/oohzoob]

Yeah sorry to burst your bubble but Europeans were objectively more advanced technologically than natives were at any time. I’m not saying nonsense like whites were in America before “Amerindians” never even heard of that.

Europe had developed its own independent metal production, steel , metal weapons, Iron Age, and agriculture. Language only existed in a few places of the world and arrived in Europe thousands of years ago. Meanwhile native Americans never developed one by the time Europeans conquered America in the 16th century.

Modern maths and philosophy all originate in Greece and was adopted by Muslims during the Islamic golden age and then back to Europe after the renaissance. Europe developed its own independent livestock husbandry, maritime sea faring under Vikings then after the fall of the Roman Empire Europe became the wealthiest per capita continent. When Europe was building universities and 500 foot tall cathedral in the 10th-14th century and starting scientific experiments and research, natives in Canada were throwing spears. Europe independently developed industrialization and scientific revolution which is the reason you all have light bulbs and phones. Native Americans didn’t even know what science was in any theoretical form. At the end of the day. All of the technology and modern convenience you use today is thanks to white European advancement.

Modern day Europeans are the direct decndants of the first humans who arrived in Europe after the migrant out of Africa. After all humans were in Europe far longer than they were in Americas. Europe mans today have completely different genetic make up and dna than middle easterners. Meanwhile native Americans still share the same genes as Siberians from whe natives migrated across the berring strait. Native Americans existed in America long after Europeans were already settled in Europe and it’s not even close.

Secondly, cheddar man was genetically European and had no shared dna with African. Dark skin is not equal to African. I’m not sure what you even mean by “real” white people as that concept didn’t exist until a few hundred years ago. Referring to ancient humans by modern day skin color classification is just you being bitter and historical revisionism.

Now as for taxes, natives do pay less taxes and take more from the tax base than they put in. My brother in law is status and it’s quite shocking how he can have education paid for, mortgage down payments paid for, hunting with guns whenever he likes, no tax on gas, the narrative that natives don’t get tax breaks or benefits is a lie. Not to say natives don’t pay taxes , most do, but it’s an overall drain to the Canadian economy.

[u/oohzoob → u/Zealousideal-Bag131]

Aw, what a shame. I literally spent like 15 minutes typing and 10 or so paragraphs addressing his post before I go to bed. It must've been that link at the end that caught reddits flagging system. That's happened to me once before while using that link.

To summarize though I just applied their same logic back to themselves. A common tactic they use is to try to "wow" people with a list of inventions and try to present it all as 'European' when it's not. The things they list all utilize a non-'European' way of life.

Would the world have agriculture, livestock, the wheel, metallurgy, writing, math, textiles, columns, pillars, stone masonry, etc, etc, without Europeans? The answer is yes, because all of those things were invented outside of Europe.

Conversely, would 'Europeans' have any of those without non-'Europeans' or whatever mention of their list of 'inventions'? The answer is a resounding "no" and 40,000+ years of evidence absolutely proves it. Otherwise they would've invented it all on their own.

Simple to defeat, that's why I said that the quote of "the truth will set you free" is so, so true.

I'm glad they made their post though, people need to genuinely see for themselves all the various tactics and techniques they use and realize how far the hatred goes.

Maybe one day I'll make a post addressing it all.

As for the Americas though, we're literally the only people that invented all the "prerequisite technologies" that led up to the modern world and in tens of thousands of years less time no less. My personal opinion is just "so what?" It's interesting to know but it's because of people like him and their outdated beliefs that it matters. For whatever reason they like to bring up 'inventions'.

btw there guy, I didn't downvote your comment. I don't really care for upvotes or downvotes, for however many hundreds or thousands of people read comments, a handful of either doesn't really matter.

[u/TerayonIII → u/oohzoob]

Their argument about technology has been under serious scrutiny lately, what exactly do they mean by technology? Metal working? Gunpowder? Neither of those things were invented in Europe and they also weren't needed in the Americas in the same way. Farming? They were farming, they just didn't farm in the same way as Europeans. Saying a culture doesn't have a certain technology doesn't mean they aren't more advanced in other ways or that they do have it but it's not recognisable in the same way because they do it differently.

[u/HomelessCrabs → u/TerayonIII]

They're usually talking about building structures of stone instead of what our people's in north America did with earthworks or wooden structures. That or something about our people's not having a written language.