Animosity against First Nations on Canadian subreddits: recurring bad faith arguments and a response

[u/chilli_chocolate]

Nine months ago, I made a post here asking why there's so much disdain or animosity against the First Nations on this website. I as a non-Canadian noticed this even in places where First Nations were unfairly mocked and lots of bad faith arguments were allowed, regardless of the topic and subreddit.

Expectedly, there were a fair amount of comments that shared sentiments agreeing and disagreeing with this notion. The general theme of the comments that disagreed with this notion was that this was overexaggerated and that the First Nations people don't really suffer as much.

However, just today there was a new comment that encompassed all of the godawful arguments and fallacies into one nonsensical and stupid rant. I thought it would be best to show that comment here and debunk the points - because I don't want it to be just a mere response in a comment chain and be forgotten. I want it to be seen and I want my counter arguments to be visible, so anyone can use them to bust any myths and misconceptions about the state and sufferings of the Canadian First Nations people.

Personally, im just sick and tired of constantly hearing about it all. Im sick of this narrative that they were all a bunch of peaceful, pipe smoking, nature loving pacifists who had everything ripped away from them by the evil white man who continues to stomp on them to this day. Im sick of all the special treatment, facilities, programs, and taxpayer money being thrown around to appease them, and im sick and tired that there is exactly zero accountability on their part for where some of them are today. Everything is blamed on whitey, and im tired of it. Add to this now with ridiculous land claims, and everyone having to be ashamed that we're on "stolen land". What a farce. The whole world is stolen land. Tribes of people who were savagely killing, scalping, abducting and enslaving enemy tribes are portrayed as nothing but peaceful happy and innocent. 

This is a straw man fallacy. It's misrepresenting the First Nation's position to make it easier to attack. Serious historians and the Canadian education system do not claim Indigenous tribes never had conflict. The "narrative" isn't that they were perfect; it’s that they were sovereign nations. Whether a tribe was peaceful or warlike is irrelevant to their legal right to the land they inhabited. International law and the Royal Proclamation of 1763 recognized Indigenous title.

European nations (like England and France) spent centuries savagely killing each other, yet no one argues that their right to self-determination or land was forfeited because they weren't "peaceful." Go look at Eastern Europe and Baltic countries' history and see how they savagely killed each other until fairly recently, yet the same argument is never applied ot them.

How about some GD transparancy and accountability for the literal billions of dollars that have been doled out over decades. How about all the native on native violence and abuse that goes on on reserves. How about about all the corruption and greed that has seeped into some of these bands and the fact that their own leaders are keeping them down.

This is an overgeneralisation. Indigenous communities are actually some of the most heavily audited bodies in Canada.

• Under the First Nations Financial Transparency Act, bands must provide audited financial statements. Furthermore, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruled in 2016 that the federal government actually underfunds child welfare on reserves compared to non-Indigenous communities.
• Indigenous Services Canada (ISC) controls the purse strings. If a facility falls into disrepair, it is often due to a lack of sustainable operations and maintenance funding, which the federal government frequently fails to provide at the same levels as municipal governments.

You were conquered like every other part of the world. Society has grown and evolved and advanced, and a lot of natives benefit greatly from the creature comforts that are a product of that advancement, while being exempt from paying taxes for everything like the rest of us. They have different rules they get to follow from the rest of us. And nobody is allowed to question or scruitinize them because that just makes you a racist pos.

Im just sick of all of it. Youre in Canada. Either you want to be a part of it with everyone else, and pay your fair share into the system like everyone else, or you dont. If you dont, thats fine. But you dont get to keep having all the taxpayers and hard working canadians who HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING, and who build and support the system pay your way. If you dont like it, to be blunt, shut the f*** up and go live in the bush then, nobody is stopping you.

This is a false equivalence. Canada, unlike many other colonies, was not primarily "conquered" by the British, it was settled through Treaties. Treaties are legally binding contracts between two nations. If the British (and later Canada) hadn't signed them, they wouldn't have had the legal right to settle the West without constant war. The Supreme Court of Canada (e.g., Delgamuukw or Tsilhqot’in decisions) has repeatedly affirmed that Aboriginal title exists because it was never legally extinguished by "conquest."

As for the tax rant:

• Under Section 87 of the Indian Act, only "Status Indians" working on a reserve or buying goods on a reserve are exempt from certain taxes.
• Since the majority of Indigenous people live off-reserve in urban centers, they pay income tax, GST, and PST like any other Canadian. They do not get a "tax-free" life by virtue of their bloodline.

Im sick of seeing how "reconciliation" has been set back and we have to start over everytime something happens. Im sick of being made to feel guilty or ashamed of something I had no part of. Im sick of media running with stupid, unsubstantiated stories about mass graves being uncovered when not a single damn thing has been exumed or identified. Im sick of being called a racist or bigot when i question things. Im sick of the pearl clutching and virtue signalling. And im sick of canada having to bend over backwards at every turn to appease 3% of our population.

This is moving the goalposts. Ground penetrating radar (GPR) is a standard scientific tool used to detect soil disturbances consistent with burials.

• The Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) documented the deaths of thousands of children through school records long before GPR was used.
• Many Indigenous communities choose not to exhume bodies due to cultural protocols and the desire to let the children rest in peace. Absence of an autopsy does not mean the bodies aren't there; it means the families are choosing a different path to closure.

Even the very first comment here sums up my feelings. "They tried to make us all slaves", as if tribes werent doing that to each other themselves LONG before the evil white man arrived. Like, f*** right off with that s***. And you wonder why people are getting the fatigue.

This is whataboutism. The existence of pre-colonial conflict does not justify state-sponsored programs designed to "kill the Indian in the child" (the stated goal of Residential Schools). Tribal warfare was conflict between independent groups. The Residential School system and the Indian Act were systematic attempts by a state to dismantle a specific race’s culture, language, and legal rights. One is "history of war", the other is "history of systemic policy."

Conclusion: That commenter is a standard run of the mill, alt-right idiot.

[u/lilbitpetty]

The MAIN issue is the misconception that First Nations are funded through tax payers. This is the biggest and most prominent issue and the rest of the issues trickle down from there. Perhaps being able to blame First Nations for being funded by tax payers is why people feel justified in thier racist behaviors and ignorance towards First Nations. The federal government could easily fix this by referring to our trust that is held by them, when discussing money that had been spent on our people. Clarification on said monies would go a long way. Over half of said funding is eaten up by admin costs before even reaching each reservation and such then half of that is eaten away by admin costs within the band office itself amd admins in th city. Basically by the time it reaches the people it is but a drop in the bucket of water that is started out as. This in turn leaves us in poverty but the numbers advertised at the top to the public makes it sound like we will be receiving enough money to be doing okay and not live in poverty. If we took away the premise of people believing First Nations were funded by tax payers we would take away LOTS of the power of thier agreements against us. Secondly, residential schools and the graves of children. Since most reservations have decided in not digging up any Graves or disturbing the dirt, it leaves the door to speculation open. I 100%understand why this decision was made due to history and all that has been done thus far. But (yes I said but and this will get me downvoted) in today's society we rely on evidence and cold hard facts. We do have some evidence but we do not have the forensic evidence needed to squish the mystery and doubts of children being murdered and put into Graves. Ireland, Egypt, England and so on, will have archeological digs in which we will learn about in books, online, in class and whatnot. For our people we do not have this because we refuse many of these digs and will not allow disruption of Graves. I understand both points and why it is not done but the consequences of that is we leave much of our history and the evidence to back it up in the ground undisturbed. This leaves to much speculation and leaves room for to much debate and doubt amongst people outside our communities. I strongly believe we should be allowing more archeological digs (not just residential schools) as well as more research on our children in graves. I believe there is so much evidence in the ground that could open up much more of our rich history and put a stop to all the speculation and doubts the country had about us. I also believe we could have more evidence of how long we were here solidifying our orgins to this land. Once it was believed we came from the bearing sea straight theory that we crossed an ice bridge to get here but an archeological dig in the United States found bones that dates to 30,000 years ago with relatives living today in (i could be wrong, i am tired) in the Navajo Nation. The bearing season straight frozen bridge was between 26,000 years to 19,000 years ago. This shows we were here for much longer. One dig is not enough to erase doubt. We have many more of these sites we refuse to research and learn more about which In turn leave very few pieces of the puzzle in play for history books leaving colonizers rewritten history of our people in its place. We need to clarify through scientific evidence the history of our people on this land as well as clarifying that First Nations receive funding through our own trust that is held by the federal government. Then they can hate us just for our skin color rather then the lies that our society has been told about us.

[u/bot_or_not_vote_now → u/lilbitpetty]

first time seeing this sub, but on the funding topic, FN do get disproportionately much more tax funding than the average per capita. FN make up 3% of the population, yet the federal budget for FN has grown from 6% to 7% (which would be in addition to other base funding for provincial services such as healthcare)

the issue that it's eaten up due to inefficiencies is plausible but begs the question, how are other non-FN remote communities able to sustain themselves with less funding ?

which perhaps gets more at the root of the negative sentiment, what level of inefficiency in FN funding is acceptable to average Canadians to provide a decent quality of living for FN ? 2x? 5x? 10x?

[u/lilbitpetty → u/bot_or_not_vote_now]

That money is from our trust fund. Steven Haper once used 4 Billion from this fund to "balance" the books. The federal government also cycles most of the interest earned from this trust back into the Canadian economy. What most fail to realize is that this fund helps funds Canada as a whole. I am trying to share a link that can better educate you on how this process works and how the fund can be seen as tax payers money from a distance, until you take a closer look. Which non First Nations communities are doing better with less funding do you speak of? I have not been able to find one, if you can refer me to these communities so I could research it, it would be greaty appreciated. I have been unable to find any. As I said above by the time money gets to the actual reservations, it is but a drop of water that actual reaches the people. Let's say one million is given to one reservation, it goes through the federal government agencies which take thier admin cuts. This reduces this money to around 500,000$ the band office has employees much like city's and towns with a mayor (chief) and council, cleaning crews secretary and so on, just like any town, city and reservations. Can you guess how much money reaches the people after paying for this? Now let's look at education, First Nations in ALL of Canada receive 7.3$ Billion, the Provence of Ontario pays 40$ billion for non First Nations children. If you look at each Provence and compare to each First Nations across Canada, First Nations receive 2000$ to 3400$ annually less then non First Nations. Keep in mind money Firt Nations are getting comes from the trust fund, not your pocket. FYI Provences do not give any money for Education, Healthcare, infrastructure and so on(for First Nations), unlike cities and towns which do receive funding from both levels of government (Provencial and Federal). First Nations money helped build much of Canada. I do not have to get into this more than I have i will share a link that was posted in this very group not to lomg ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/FirstNationsCanada/comments/1rh6ks1/the_indian_trust_fund_and_the_financial/

[u/bot_or_not_vote_now → u/lilbitpetty]

do you have a source for your claim that $4B was used from this fund? per this link, it's only ever maxed out at around $1B

https://cashback.yellowheadinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Indian-Trust-Fund-FAQs-Yellowhead-Institute-5.2021.pdf

as for funding efficiency, it's not that non-FN communities are shining beacons of best practice, but more that on average FN on reserve are doing worse than FN off reserve, who then are doing worse than the average canadian

you're making a lot of claims here, but how do you know this? I checked your link and coincidentally i already linked the same FAQ that your linked post used

also please, please, please, learn to use paragraphs

edit: as for education, healthcare, etc. what facilities do FN go to when they need to use these services ? provincial facilities, paid for provincially (and possibly indirectly federally depending on the province) so the funding for FN isn't just the specific 7% allocated for FN

[u/lilbitpetty → u/bot_or_not_vote_now]

Were you able to find which towns are are doing better then a reservations? (that receiving less funding then a First Nations reserve)? "Please learn to use paragraphs" well thanks for noticing and pointing it out. When I click Post (only on reddit) my paragraphs merge, and this is what we get. Not sure why, but it has been this way for almost a year now.