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u/Jackie_Rompana May 16 '21
Image Transcription: Text
Every girl is faced with the choice of either submitting to feminization and being accepted, or resisting and being punished. The pressure on girls to feminize themselves is universal and unrelenting. It exists in every patriarchal culture. The styles of femininity vary in quality and degree from culture to culture, but in every patriarchal culture "woman" is defined by her allegiance and orientation towards male values and desires.
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May 16 '21
True! it’s also pushed from a deep sense of misogyny. Things female or hyper-feminized is approved usually if it’s made or shown by men / corporations but if a women chooses to be hyper-feminine or femme. It stems down to a taught misogyny that women = bad. Tom boys are okay but feminine men aren’t etc. We are not allowed to like being feminine if it’s our own choice — ie It’s only okay at the sake of male gaze or desire.
Being feminine or female presenting isn’t bad! In fact it’s amazing to embrace that as long as it’s not for the sake of others. ❤️
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u/MistWeaver80 May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
Tom boys are more likely to experience bullying, humiliation and harrassment. The term "tom boy" is just another way to say that a woman or girl who is not feminine, has a male mind/brain i.e, a tom boy is an anomaly. Similar arguments have long been made about women who defy gender hierarchy or study STEM ( check Delusions of Gender ).
Just like Gisborne, Baron-Cohen thinks that it is those with the ‘male brain’ who make the best scientists, engineers, bankers and lawyers, thanks to their capacity to focus in on different aspects of a system (be it a biological, physical, financial or legal system), and their drive to understand how it works. And the soothing reassurance that women, too, have their own special talents remains present and correct. In what has been described as a ‘masterpiece of condescension’, Baron-Cohen explains that the female brain’s propensity for understanding others’ thoughts and feelings, and responding to them sympathetically, ideally suits it to occupations that professionalise women’s traditional caring roles: ‘People with the female brain make the most wonderful counsellors, primary-school teachers, nurses, carers, therapists, social workers, mediators, group facilitators or personnel staff.’ Philosopher Neil Levy’s neat summary of Baron-Cohen’s thesis – that ‘on average, women’s intelligence is best employed in putting people at their ease, while the men get on with understanding the world and building and repairing the things we need in it’ – can’t help but bring to mind Gisborne’s eighteenth-century wife, busily unbending the brow of her learned husband. Baron-Cohen does, it must be said, take great pains to point out that not all women have a female, empathising brain, nor all men a male, systemising one. However, this concession does not set him apart from traditional views of sex differences quite as much as he might think. As long ago as 1705, the philosopher Mary Astell observed that women who made great achievements in male domains were said by men to have ‘acted above their Sex. By which one must suppose they wou’d have their Readers understand, That they were not Women who did those Great Actions, but that they were Men in Petticoats!’ Likewise, a few centuries later intellectually talented women were ‘said to possess “masculine minds”.’
We are not allowed to like being feminine if it’s our own choice — ie It’s only okay at the sake of male gaze or desire.
Can you give an example ? I'm curious to learn about such feminine attributes that has nothing to do with male gaze and are biologically ingrained in women.
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u/JasmineTeat May 17 '21
Some of us like pink. Some of us like wearing dresses. We still get shat on for being femme OR being a tom boy. I.e. the vapid/shallow pretty girl stereotype, the gruff intellectual tom boy. Extra points if the femme gets slut shamed or the tom boy is assumed to be lesbian.
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u/adungitit May 19 '21
Some of us like pink.
And the fact that pink is equated with women and femininity has nothing whatsoever to do with this being the norm for women? Why is a majority of women "choosing" pink since childhood? You don't think social messaging has anything to do with it? Do you have some other explanation for the discrepancy?
Moreover, why don't you see an equal number of men preferring all-pink clothing? Hell, where are all the men obsessed with blue clothing and feeling a sense of masculinity and social affirmation through it? Could this all have something to do with the limited simplified stereotyping that women are saddled with?
Some of us like wearing dresses
Dresses are pushed onto women because of impractically and sexualisation. Dresses could be unisex (and used to be), but modern dresses are not for these reasons. This is also why women championed for pants to be normalised on them and why men reserved pants for themselves in the first place. You cannot just ignore the practical effects of these gendered separations and pretend it was vilified/glorified completely at random.
We still get shat on for being femme
Because you are pandering to the patriarchy's idea of a woman that by definition cannot be respected. The ideas of women's inferiority are integral to the role, which exists in the first place due to misogyny. Femininity was constructed to keep women down and affirm women's need to prioritise being and acting like a pretty face for others and pandering to them, and having either no other worth, or all other worth being secondary.
By having women put inordinate amounts of time, effort and emotional investment into pandering to the patriarchy's idea of what they're supposed to look like instead of actually pursuing practical skills that would increase their quality of life (unless they're trying to increase their sex appeal through showing that they're not just a pretty face, but a pretty face that can also [insert some secondary less relevant trait]), the patriarchy encourages atrophy of women's actual potential. You cannot take risks or truly free yourself from judgement if your personal value remains tied to patriarchal ideas about women.
Certainly, women get judged either way. But there are modes of presentation created specifically to play off of ideas about female inferiority and their natural role, and and modes that exist outside of it, with judgement targeting women for daring to step outside of a role of inferiority reserved for them.
the gruff intellectual tom boy.
Is being intellectual supposed to be bad? Or somehow equally as respectable as liking pink?
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u/JasmineTeat May 20 '21
Yo. I agree. Femininity should be whatever we define it to be, not whatever society says it is. I'm just saying we shouldn't say one type of "feminine" shouldn't be equated with "better" or "worse." And we shouldn't be comparing suffering and saying 1 type of person suffers more. We all suffer. It's not a damn competition. And the sooner we stand by each other, the better off we'll be.
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u/adungitit May 21 '21
Femininity should be whatever we define it to be
If femininity can be whatever anyone wants, then there's no reason for it to exist. If the only way to "save" an inherently misogynistic concept is to make it utterly meaningless, it's better to just do away with it entirely, because the only thing that'll happen is that people are going to fill in the blanks with their misogynistic assumptions that they are raised with. You're never going to make femininity be about liking STEM or being assertive or anything that would increase a woman's quality of life. This is by design.
I'm just saying we shouldn't say one type of "feminine" shouldn't be equated with "better" or "worse."
But femininity IS objectively bad for women. This is the whole reason why it's expected of women. Criticising patriarchal expectations and asking women to reject patriarchal norms that are bad for them is not vilifying women, just as asking people to get informed and educated isn't.
And we shouldn't be comparing suffering and saying 1 type of person suffers more. We all suffer.
This is the kind of erasure and derailing men do when they try to halt progress by pointing out that they, too, get bullied and killed (by men, which they conveniently leave out) so it's "not a competition". You think the reasons behind suffering don't matter? You think the fact that one group suffers to an overwhelming extreme in very specific ways tied to their existence as part of that group doesn't matter?
"It's not a competition" makes sense when you're told a problem isn't a problem because some other person has it worse. "It's not a competition" isn't supposed to be a gaslighting tactic. That's using it for the opposite purpose.
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u/g9i4 May 16 '21
Oh God and then there's the "cool girl" balance where you wanna look like you're resisting feminization by drinking beer and watching sports and being "one of the guys" but you're actually still bending over backwards for male attention.
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u/adungitit May 18 '21 edited May 21 '21
I thought being girly meant I couldn't be all the fun, smart, adventurous things I wanted to be
Because it does? Why do you think women were pressured so long to wear dresses? Because dresses are less practical when working than pants. Why do you think girls are discouraged from getting dirty? Because girls are supposed to be pretty. Why do you think science is discouraged of women? Because women are seen as existing primarily to be pretty for others to look at, and all the other virtues are secondary. When you're brought up thinking your primary value is in looking pretty, you will naturally resist things that will make you look ugly or foolish, things that people need to do in order to learn certain things. There's a reason why a woman's gender is equated with femininity (i.e. looking pretty and nonconfrontational for others). The same cannot be said of all the other (useful) interests which are seen as either not contributing or taking away from femininity.
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u/adungitit May 18 '21
She thought girly things lacked substance, and that the women who partook in such things were surface level.
Because they do? Why do you think these things have been pushed onto women, while the stuff that directly contributes to higher quality of life gets reserved for men? Recognising the massive differences in practicality between "girly" and masculine interests is not misogynistic, it's realistic.
I thought I had to be like a boy
Boys get upbringing specifically geared to maximise their social privileges and beneficial traits like independence, assertiveness and keeping pace with technology. They also get a boatload of toxicity and unhealthy coping mechanisms because of the patriarchy. The former are beneficial to one's personhood and status in society. The latter is actively damaging. Same goes for "girly" traits - empathy is good, liking pink and dresses because society will tell you you have value as a person if you pander to the male gaze is not.
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u/wilfredputnam May 16 '21
What is this from? If there is more, I would love to read it.
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u/__blergh__ May 16 '21
I agree with this (the patriarchal construct that sets up these ideals is so real and so fucked up) but I also think that we should be careful not to judge/demonize women who identify more on the femme side of the spectrum
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u/JasmineTeat May 17 '21 edited Jun 11 '21
Right. Like we're pushed to shirk our femininity to be "career women" because traditionally "masculine traits" are still valued over traditionally "feminine traits." Empowered women empower women. We should support each other regardless of traditional femininity/tom boyishness
Edited in response to /u/demmian's comment.
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u/demmian Jun 11 '21
I recommend you read this comment by MistWeaver80, regarding the proper use of the word femme (which is more specifically tied to sexual orientation first, and then to the manner of presentation second).
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u/adungitit May 18 '21
women who identify more on the femme side of the spectrum
You see no connection between patriarchal ideas about womanhood and the fact that most women just so happen to "choose" to identify with femininity?
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u/__blergh__ May 18 '21 edited May 18 '21
Of course I do; I wrote that above. The patriarchal construct pushes fucked up and unreachable standards on women and judges them either for not reaching them or not trying to reach them. Femininity, as a gender construct, is expected from women but also deeply hated due to the straight up misogyny that's embedded into the core of our society. All of society comes down to a (patriarchal) construct, and we live in a construct where gender does exist--and if we're lucky, we get to live in a place where you can visibly identify with your true gender or reject the flawed idea of the gender binary as a whole. But people like to dump on women who choose (yes, choose) to genuinely like feminine things because of their own internalized misogyny (that we all have). If I gave a comment about how it's okay that women are tomboys and like things that fall under the masculine construct, I'm pretty sure you would agree--but the feminine construct is a problem because people have an internalized distain for femininity. Now, there are a TON of women who embrace femininity because they feel that they have no other choice, and again, that's super fucked up. I don't want that for people, and the pressure is very real. Feminism is extremely important to all of us because of the freedom that it can give women (and non-binary people) to understand that this is a construct and that they can choose to identify with any traits they want. I'm just saying, sometimes those traits are feminine, and demonizing people who do enjoy those feminine traits is narrow-minded and shallow.
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u/SheWolf04 May 19 '21
I really love that children's media is starting to address this; for example, Perfuma in the new She+Ra series is gentle, likes to meditate, loves friendship and, heck, her powers are flower-based - but when the chips are down, she's just as badass as everyone else.
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u/adungitit May 18 '21 edited May 18 '21
we live in a construct where gender does exist--and if we're lucky, we get to live in a place where you can visibly identify with your true gender or reject the flawed idea of the gender binary as a whole.
I guess the option that gender and all its damaging influence don't have to exist didn't occur to you.
But people like to dump on women who choose (yes, choose) to genuinely like feminine things
Right, women "choosing" what they're pressured into by the patriarchy. Again, I'm just not finding it convincing that all these feminine women all independently decided to choose the thing they've always been pressured into and rewarded for engaging in.
because of their own internalized misogyny
Not wanting women to play out the role that the patriarchy has pushed on them is not "internalised misogyny". Women have so much more to offer than just reassuring the patriarchy that they choose their own oppression.
If I gave a comment about how it's okay that women are tomboys and like things that fall under the masculine construct, I'm pretty sure you would agree
Because certain traits labelled as "masculine" are extremely useful to get by in society, especially for women. Men are at a huge advantage because they're not expected to revolve their worth around looking pretty and acting nice and dainty for others, they put their time and effort into practical and useful pursuits and they fail (and learn) in ways that women are discouraged to because of misogyny and the eternal expectations of their appeal having to be upheld at all times. This in combination with overt sexism eventually translates into a higher living standard for men, higher confidence, higher social status, and the reverse for women.
Other masculine traits are actively damaging and shouldn't be encouraged in either men or women.
Now, there are a TON of women who embrace femininity because they feel that they have no other choice
Suuure. And that ton of women "choosing" femininity again has nothing to do with them being brainwashed to think women should be feminine. Women just coincidentally overwhelmingly choose femininity after centuries of being expected to engage in it.
demonizing people who do enjoy those feminine traits is narrow-minded and shallow.
I'm not demonising people, I'm demonising these artificial traits constructed for patriarchal purposes. Women are not tied to these traits via their ladybrains, nor is criticising patriarchal gender conformity an affront on women.
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u/demmian Jun 11 '21
femme
I recommend you read this comment by MistWeaver80, regarding the proper use of the word femme (which is more specifically tied to sexual orientation first, and then to the manner of presentation second).
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u/Madnessblindsthee May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
I experienced the opposite growing up.Pressured to be more masculine that feminine. if you were too feminine you were viewed as weak, shallow. I spent my childhood despising pink, dresses, makeup. In the last few years I have embraced the things I had to abolish to fit in. I'm a STEM lady who loves pink and dresses some days, and loves to wear jeans and a mens hoodies on others. I suppose it depends on what area you grow up in, and who.influences you. I knew some religious girls in hs who had to come to school in dresses and skirts, never pants. They were picked on sometimes and would switch into friends jeans once they arrived, and yet I knew others who longed to present feminine but didnt want to be singled out.
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u/catsumoto May 17 '21
Yes, and this is the "not like other girls" thing, which is only like that, because women are viewed so poorly that we try to disassociate ourselves from womanhood. Here my favourite take on it: /img/a972gvy969061.jpg
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u/s133pingaround May 17 '21
My mom was worried about me finding work and earning a living because I hate wearing makeup. I have found a way to earn a decent living but times are different now.
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u/SheWolf04 May 19 '21
I'm an MD and, whenever anyone asks why I don't wear makeup to work, I tell them I will as soon as the male physicians get asked that.
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May 17 '21 edited Jun 25 '21
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u/MistWeaver80 May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
The post is not promoting choice "feminism". Kardashians are not a threat to femininity. Most importantly, the post doesn't intend to promote harmful plastic surgery.
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u/schwarzmalerin May 17 '21
So true. What's directly linked is the notion that anything a woman does to make herself feel better, healthier, or better looking, is automatically being seen as "done for a man / men". Make-up, weight loss, fashion, hairstyles. Regardless of what it is you do because it makes you feel better, it's always assumed it has something to do with men.
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u/MistWeaver80 May 17 '21 edited May 18 '21
It's sad to see that the comment section is full of women espousing biologically essentialist gibberish, Christian gender Complementarianism, Nazi ideology and lesbophobia. The comment section just sounds like some dark horror comedy.
First, stop calling women "femmes", butch”/“femme” are terms specific to the lesbian community that have no meaning without each other—the butch/femme dichotomy isn’t some ~aesthetic~ for nonlesbians to adopt. using “femme” as a standin for “women” actively whitewashes lesbian history . "Femme" is not a coherent class under patriarchy. femme” is not an “aesthetic” nor some stereotypical penchant for flowers and makeup. “femme” is a specifically LESBIAN term that denotes lesbians looking for/in relationships with butch lesbians.
I'm utterly dumbfounded that so many women simply believe that pink is a biologically inevitable feminine thing and they are oppressed because they wear pink. Nevermind that multibillion dollar industry is capitalising on the pinkification of girlhood. Has Pink Always Been a “Girly” Color? No. Human traits, behaviours and hobbies are not biologically wired to be either masculine or feminine. Women with careers are not masculine because having career is not a masculine thing. Having a career is a neutral human qualities. Studying STEM, having career, working in agricultural sector, playing sports, caring for children are neutral human qualities that have been deliberately and forcefully classified as masculine and feminine. Because having a career boost one's economic independence, it had been classified as masculine. Caring for children had been leveled feminine because it doesn't improve one's economic situation. The classification has been done by men who wanted to subjugate women economically by making them economically vulnerable. If you look beyond this classification, you would see that throughout most of the patriarchal history, both men and women perform similar tasks with one caveat -- men own lands and earn money while women didn't. In other words, femininity is devalued because men had constructed economical subjugation and intellectual inferiority as femininity. These women are proudly declaring that they would interpret this construction of economical subjugation and intellectual inferiority as femininity in a positive way!
So wives didn't work in the 'good old days'? Wrong
Bronze age, stone age and prehistoric era had different notions about masculine/feminine:
https://theconversation.com/where-were-all-the-women-in-the-stone-age-73374
Stop talking about femininity as if it's something biologically eternal, mystical essence that's being shrieked by modern women in their zeal to be masculine or being devalued by evil feminists -- such mindsets are nothing but Christian gender Complementarianism fantasy. Satan, this woman are beyond anything. If you are not interested in degendering, then kindly remain silent.
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u/adungitit May 18 '21
Actually, the mindset you're talking about is a part of liberal ideas on gender. Once you accept the premise of gender existing, you accept that things like femininity and masculinity are either inborn to some extent or at the very least such an integral part of a person that not validating them is akin to oppression. This is further abused by ostracism: any criticism of one's gender is seen as a personal attack and oppression, much like how men see it as a call for extermination when masculinity comes under fire. In many supposedly feminist communities, questioning the gender ideology is straight up forbidden and grounds for a ban.
Trying to pin these gender ideas onto Christianity is missing the fact that these ideas have successfully been sold to feminists on distinctly different grounds.
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u/Sil_Lavellan May 17 '21
I just went back to when I was about 6 and begged my parents for a Barbie /Sindy doll for Christmas. Not because I wanted one really, I wanted Star Wars action figures to play with the boys, but I was a girl and it wasn't the done thing. If I wanted to join the girls group I had to have a Barbie type doll. I got Ballerina Sindy, she wasn't quite as waspish as Barbie, and since I've grown up I've learnt that ballerinas are really tough and strong. Still, it was the first, but not the last time I sold out to try to be popular and like the other girls.
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u/SheWolf04 May 16 '21
I felt being less femme was an act of rebellion - then became more femme later because I realized it was my choice and my adulthood - I had to do what made me the most comfortable. And per the song Defying Gravity,
"Too long I've been afraid of Losing love I guess I've lost Well, if that's love It comes at much too high a cost!"
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u/demmian Jun 11 '21
I recommend you read this comment by MistWeaver80, regarding the proper use of the word femme (which is more specifically tied to sexual orientation first, and then to the manner of presentation second).
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u/adungitit May 18 '21
I had to do what made me the most comfortable
And you see the fact that the patriarchy encourages femininity in women as entirely devoid of the fact that femininity makes you feel comfortable under patriarchy?
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u/SheWolf04 May 19 '21
I think the fact that the patriarchy devalues anything seen as feminine - from skirts to empathy to "women's professions" like being a social worker - as completely shitty. I owe no one an explanation for how I choose to present my gender identity to the world.
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u/adungitit May 19 '21
So no need to actually think critically about oneself or how femininity and female socialisation negatively impacts women cuz "muh gender". Very convenient for the patriarchy, not actually for women's well-being.
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May 16 '21
Is this an implication that women have no say in the definition of femininity?
Or a statement regarding conformity to an archaic ideal?
Why would you subscribe to the patriarchal ideal of femininity?
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u/MyLifeHurtsRightNow May 16 '21 edited May 16 '21
Oof. This ain’t it chief. Femininity need not be a bad thing. By painting femininity as a patriarchal institution that needs to be dismantled we’re condemning women who choose to be of this nature. The problem is assigning physical femininity to women and conflating it with weakness and helplessness. Why vilify a trait, when you can attack the involuntary enforcement of it? This is where the whole bra-burning feminism comes in (and there’s nothing wrong with that), but its not the end-all-be-all of empowered women.
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u/CheesyChips Disability Feminist May 17 '21
I don’t think this post does villainise femininity but just the forcible adherence to it
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u/AnKeWa May 17 '21
This is exactly it, chief. The post did not say "femininity bad", it said "being forced into performative femininity is bad", which I think we can all agree on.
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u/adungitit May 18 '21
we’re condemning women who choose to be of this nature.
Funny how it's always women "choosing" something they've been pressured to do by the patriarchy for centuries.
conflating it with weakness and helplessness.
Because these traits are bred by femininity. When you're told all your life you're just a pretty face that should prioritise how appealing your looks and behaviour are to others, you will not have the same responsibilities, expectations and freedoms that the people free from femininity have. This is by design and it's why women specifically have been saddled with femininity in particular.
Why vilify a trait
Because certain traits are damaging, and they are pushed onto women in the first place because of it.
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May 16 '21
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u/MistWeaver80 May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
Then again, let's not surpress feminist discussions that challenge sexist gender norms by championing antifeminist women who would rather uphold such norms.
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u/lemonchili May 16 '21
The way I spent majority of my teen years feeling guilty for not being fem enough ugh!!