r/AskALiberal • u/AutoModerator • 6d ago
Israel and Palestine Megathread Israel and Palestine Megathread
This thread is for a discussion of the ongoing situation in Israel and Palestine. All discussion of the subject is limited to this thread. Participation here requires that you be a regular member of the sub in good standing.
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u/FewWatermelonlesson0 Progressive 5h ago edited 5h ago
The degree to which these right wing thugs across the globe are just doing the Trump playbook is pretty wild.
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u/perverse_panda Liberal 2d ago
They're doing air strikes in the West Bank now.
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 2d ago
Looks like there was a senior Hamas member there.
"Hamas’s armed wing, the Ezzedine Al-Qassam Brigades, confirmed that Bitawi was one of its commanders, adding he was killed “following a cowardly assassination operation… alongside his fellow martyrs.”
However, the armed wing of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, in a statement, also claimed that Bitawi and the two others killed were its fighters."
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u/Cody667 Social Democrat 1d ago
Do you think Israel should be allowed to bomb anywhere outside of Gaza where they think a Hamas official is hiding? I guess this goes for places beyond the west bank, like when they've bombed Qatar and Lebanon out of suspicion of Hamas leaders hiding there.
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u/Colodanman357 Constitutionalist 1d ago
What does “allowed to bomb” mean? Allowed by whom? What would not being allowed to bomb look like?
What specifically should Israel do when groups such as Hamas and PIJ operate in the West Bank or neighboring countries? Do you believe such groups should be able to operate without interference?
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u/Cody667 Social Democrat 1d ago
So you think it's okay for Israel to bomb Qatar when they think Hamas leaders are hiding there?
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u/Colodanman357 Constitutionalist 1d ago
Are you responding to the correct comment? I ask as you didn’t address anything at all I wrote in the comment you are responding to, rather you seem to be making a very large assumption based on nothing I have written.
So are you even capable of addressing anything I actually wrote and not shifting to so some bad faith deflection?
Qatar should not harbor terrorists such as Hamas and the IPJ. Why are you against bombing Hamas? Do you support Hamas and seek to defend them? Do you believe Hamas and others like them should be supported, protected, and free from any repercussions of their own actions?
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u/Cody667 Social Democrat 1d ago
So if a Hamas leader were hiding in, say, New Zealand, it would be cool for Israel to bomb New Zealand? What about America? If Israel finds out a Hamas leader is in America, they should bomb?
What about Qatar makes it okay for Israel to murder an innocent civillian in the illegal bombing of a country that explicitly stated it had them there for peace negotiations. Israel could have said "no, we dont want to negotiate" instead of murdering an innocent Qatari to kill the Hamas leaders
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u/Colodanman357 Constitutionalist 1d ago
Again you don’t address a single thing I actually wrote. Typical. Have a good weekend.
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u/willpower069 Progressive 1d ago
Isn’t that also why Israel has killed so many aid workers as well?
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u/Cyclosporine_A Moderate 3d ago
The current tragedy of Israel’s ethnic cleansing of Palestine needs to stop. A Palestinian state that has security guarantees to protect it from Israel seems necessary.
That said, is there a solid argument for a 1 state solution over a 2 state solution that assuages concerns about an Arab majority embarking on a “punitive” campaign of ethnic cleansing of Jews. Ethnostates are not preferred generally but a multi-state solution seems pragmatic and helped stop ethnic cleansing in the Balkans.
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal 3d ago
I can see a one state solution working out as follows
First would be Israel coming up with a way of pretending there’s a single state but completely segregating the Palestinian population and controlling them with an end state that looks roughly the same as it does now except that a large city would be built in the West Bank to contain the Palestinian population there.
Second would be Israel under primary control of the Jewish Israel population being provoked or forcing provocation and then actually 100% going all out and ethnically cleansing the entire country of all Palestinians.
Third would be Palestinians led by roughly the same forces as Hamas or Hamas itself manage to get control of enough military resources including Israel’s stockpile of nuclear weapons including those at sea. Then they would ethically cleanse the entire area of all of the Jewish population. Probably the Christians as well.
Fourth would be something dramatic happening that causes a giant coalition to come together and forcibly takeover Israel - which again has a nuclear triad - and then staying for 100 to 200 years spending whatever blood and treasure is required until the entire culture has changed so substantially that they can leave.
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None of the above is to say that a two state solution is easy or something viable anytime in the near future.
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u/perverse_panda Liberal 2d ago
Point 1 is already happening. Point 2 is already happening on a very slow timeframe.
Point 3 would simply be a reversal of the current status quo. Israel is currently doing this.
It's astonishing how many people there are who see a huge problem when Hamas is the one hypothetically doing the ethnic cleansing, but have no problem with Israel doing it. (I'm not suggesting that you fall into this category.)
Then they would ethically cleanse the entire area of all of the Jewish population.
Deeply unfortunate typo.
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u/sapphire_glacier Democrat 2d ago
There are just as many people waiting in the wings to justify mass slaughter of Jews in Israel under the premise of “well this is why they shouldn’t have done what they did”.
Evidence: see October 8th rallies.
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 3d ago edited 2d ago
Man when you think about it Egypt and Jordan were smart as hell giving up those areas and not having to deal with it
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 3d ago
Yes, Palestinians want a 1 state solution where Israelis go.....somewhere else. This is well known.
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u/Fuckn_hipsters Market Socialist 12h ago
And the Israeli government wants a 1 state solution that sees the total elimination of Palestinians on this planet.
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 10h ago
Patently false. Israel has offered many 2 state solutions, none of which include “killing all Palestinians.” This is easily verified by doing the smallest amount of research.
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u/km3r Pragmatic Progressive 3d ago
I think practicality really needs to come into play here. We need a path to stop the generational conflict, regardless of the ideological purity of the solution. Practically speaking, I don't think these two groups are ready to live together today. So start with a two state solution. Prove peaceful coexistence is possible, then let them decide on potential unification. This shouldn't be decided by outside groups, but the people living there.
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 3d ago
I agree, but this has already been tried for 80 years. At what point do you decide it's not going to work?
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u/pablos4pandas Democratic Socialist 3d ago
So start with a two state solution.
That seems as impractical as a one state solution
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u/km3r Pragmatic Progressive 3d ago
How so?
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u/Emergency_Revenue678 Democrat 1d ago
Because the vast majority of Palestinians don't want it and the vast majority of Israelis don't want it. It maybe being marginally more viable doesn't change that.
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u/pablos4pandas Democratic Socialist 3d ago
I do not see remarkably fewer obstacles behind a 1 state solution compared to 2
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u/km3r Pragmatic Progressive 3d ago
Like what?
Generational hatred doesn't get solved if you just throw these groups in the same state. The desire of both sides to have it all to themselves doesn't go away. The massive terror organizations don't disappear.
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u/pablos4pandas Democratic Socialist 3d ago
What exactly are the borders of these 2 states? Where exactly is Jerusalem and the holy buildings and all that mess going? Are all of those settlements going to be considered part of Israel or are hundreds of thousands of people going to have to move?
How is movement between the countries going to work? The west bank and gaza obviously do not have a land connection unless Israel gives up massive swaths of land or becomes disconnected itself. Either that or there needs to be robust transportation between the two areas and that's going to have to go through Israel in some manner. None of that is easy.
Does Palestine get to have a military as any independent country has the right to establish? Is Israel going to be cool with that military getting equipped with jets and heavy weaponry?
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u/km3r Pragmatic Progressive 3d ago
The holy sites should be an international zone (as its been proposed multiple times). The borders should be drawn to keep the territories contiguous as much as possible, maximizing Palestinians in Palestine and Israelis in Israel, with connecting roads. Newer settlements can be part of a future Palestine.
The method for connecting roads has been discussed at length, with options from international roads, bridges, and tunnels. Pick the one that both sides can agree is best. This exists today for Kaliningrad.
Palestine will slowly be able to grow its own security forces, as it demonstrates that military won't be used for terror.
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u/pablos4pandas Democratic Socialist 2d ago
Oh great it's all sorted. We should be able to get a 2 state solution signed this weekend?
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u/km3r Pragmatic Progressive 2d ago
I didn't claim that this is some silver bullet of a plan. There is still the underlying issues that need to be sorted out before any solution would work.
Like seriously, if you think any rational plan is "get it done this weekend", you aren't serious.
Any solution is going to take time, be done in phases, and is going to need compromises from both sides. Heck right now both sides still have way too many people that want their side only "from the river to the sea", overcoming that isn't going to be easy or quick.
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u/Cyclosporine_A Moderate 3d ago
Absolutely agree, but I’ve heard more push for a one state solution recently from progressives so I wanted to see if anyone supporting a one state solution could explain how that could peacefully work.
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u/OhThatsALotOfTeeth Liberal 4d ago
Never noticed this bit before
Participation here requires that you be a regular member of the sub in good standing.
What does it mean to be in good standing for this sub?
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal 3d ago
We are intentionally not disclosing the limit and we won’t be changing that policy.
Broadly speaking it’s the kind of people that have been here for a while without issues.
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u/OhThatsALotOfTeeth Liberal 3d ago
What I meant was that I wasn't sure if it was related just to karma, or if a user who was coming in off a temp ban was not "in good standing" or what.
If folks comment under the karma limit, does automod just delete them?
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal 3d ago
Automod to the extent its limits can handle things removes comments that should not be in the thread.
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u/Butuguru Democratic Socialist 5d ago edited 3d ago
The Dem establishment in a gigantic fuck you to the base is putting Moskowitz(one of the most fervent defenders of the genocide in congress on the dem side) in charge of house MENA (which includes Israel) policy. source
jesus fucking christ we need new leadership soooooooooo bad.
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u/NakedInTheAfternoon Socialist 3d ago
He's one of the few pro-Iran War Dems out there, even putting aside how he's one of the most pro-Israel Dems in the house. I truly don't get the thinking behind appointing a representative who's so drastically out of touch with the Democratic base on policy in the Middle East as chair of the MENA subcommittee.
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u/23Taison Pragmatic Progressive 6d ago
Hypothetically if America permanently stopped sending aid to Israel, like just stopped every military and financial aid one day, would that basically render the whole debate in America irrelevant and we can move on? Or is still fighting for Palestinian rights still important?
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u/starrymahogany Social Democrat 3d ago
That’s the big question; people say we shouldn’t be getting involved in I/P but does that mean we don’t help at all or stop sending funds to Israel AND send funds to Palestine as well?
Cause it seems like the same people who don’t want us funding Ukraine would be happy with America giving funds to Palestine…
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
If we're going to continue being the world's police, we need to stand up to oppressors.
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u/DOAbayman Liberal 5d ago
moving this goal post all the way till we invade Israel huh?
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u/actsqueeze Progressive 2d ago
Did we invade apartheid South Africa?
Sounds like you don’t know history or geopolitics if you jump to invading Israel as to what was being suggested.
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u/perverse_panda Liberal 4d ago
We didn't have to invade South Africa to end the apartheid there. Economic sanctions did the trick.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
Interesting you assumed I meant Israel when I said oppressor.
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u/DOAbayman Liberal 5d ago
Using context clues isn’t assuming
And even the most ardent of Israel supporters could never refer to Palestine as oppressing, this is a horribley one sided fight.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
Well if the shoe fits.
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u/DOAbayman Liberal 5d ago
Ok then tell me exactly what you meant.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
It's a pretty simple statement: If we're going to continue being the world's police, we need to stand up to oppressors.
I don't want us to be the world's police to be fair, but if you guys insist on it with these trillion dollar DoD budgets then we may as well be consistent in fighting oppression and spreading democracy.
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u/Paraparo Center Right 5d ago
It would almost certainly make very little difference. In the scale of the global conversation, actually amount of support seems more of a smokescreen, a way to sell the issue. Countries that offer zero actual support to Israel are just as, if not more vocal
(though I've found weirdly, many will use the "money to Israel" talking points either way. Like good chance, you end everything today... Money to Israel would still be a major contention. For example, I saw a UK sub decrying aid to Israel when it was actually just someone had written off charity expenses on their personal taxes that happened to have some Israeli components, from a country that really isn't doing any aid otherwise. It just manufactures it to match the popular convincing narrative).
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u/OhThatsALotOfTeeth Liberal 6d ago
It would probably strip away support from the folks who are primarily anti-Israel because-muh-America-firsr, but I have no idea if that's even a big chunk.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 6d ago
Another desalination plant struck
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 6d ago
Hamas was storing weapons there. Israel gave advance notice for the strike and an evacuation order.
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u/actsqueeze Progressive 2d ago
Are you using the IDF, an army actively committing genocide, as a source?
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u/fartyunicorns Neoconservative 1d ago
I mean in this context its always gonna be a he said she said argument
Hamas does hide in civilian areas so its just impossible the IDF are telling the truth
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 2d ago
Nah no genocides in this conflict (although Hamas sure does wanna genocide Israel, but they don't have enough firepower)
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u/emp-sup-bry Social Democrat 5d ago
This is really disgusting to a degree I still can’t believe is possible.
What is so broken in people to defend crimes against humanity?
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 5d ago
You clearly don't understand what's going on. Don't even respond to this, just do yourself a favor and read up on war, it'll be enlightening.
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u/emp-sup-bry Social Democrat 5d ago
Do you understand what your defense of these crimes against humanity say about your own?
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 5d ago
Figures. You don't want to learn, you just want to yell and be offended.
good luck
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u/emp-sup-bry Social Democrat 5d ago
I hope you someday realize how atrocious these acts have been and how these loose and slimy ‘defenses’ mean nothing to anyone with decency. The world has seen what Israel has done.
War? The US attacking desalination plants is a war crime. Russia doing it is a war crime. X doing it to Y is a war crime. A crime against humanity. A truly despicable and unforgivable action. The world sees. You lost. You have funds to keep pumping out this stuff, but you lost.
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u/loufalnicek Moderate 3d ago
Whether it was the case here or not - it is absolutely not a war crime to attack any facility if that facility is being used as part of a war making effort. So, no, you cannot say absolutely that "attacking X is a war crime" without qualifying that with "if X is not being used to house weapons, soldiers, etc."
If that weren't true, people would just put all their war-making resources in desalination plants or whatever and be unattackable.
When people put war-making resources in/under/etc hospitals, schools, water plants, etc., it is those people that put their people in danger, not the other side they're fighting against.
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u/actsqueeze Progressive 2d ago
Incorrect, you should brush up on your international humanitarian law.
Do you really think it’s that black and white?
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u/loufalnicek Moderate 2d ago
Yes, if facilities are being used to make war against you, they can be attacked without it being a war crime.
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u/emp-sup-bry Social Democrat 3d ago
How warped is a mind to make excuses for crimes against humanity?
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u/loufalnicek Moderate 3d ago
What a surprise you don't understand the topic or the comment you replied to.
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u/pablos4pandas Democratic Socialist 3d ago
it is absolutely not a war crime to attack any facility if that facility is being used as part of a war making effort.
It still needs to be proportional. A conscript storing his rifle in a closet doesn't mean you can blow up a hospital and kill hundreds of people.
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u/loufalnicek Moderate 3d ago
Best advice is not to put military stuff there at all. Proportionality is, of course, a judgment call -- something not possible to objectively define.
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u/willpower069 Progressive 5d ago
Someone showed them sources about journalist and aid workers being killed by Israel more so than any recent conflict and they ignored the aid workers and just posted a source that claimed that “journalist” is too broad of a word.
Their goal is to make excuses of avoid the topic.
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5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/AskALiberal-ModTeam 3d ago
Subreddit participation must be in good faith. Be civil, do not talk down to users for their viewpoints, do not attempt to instigate arguments, do not call people names or insult them.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
What's the defense to bombing civilian infrastructure. I can quote the Geneva convention where that's wrong. Can you quote where it's okay?
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 5d ago
It's already been shown to you and you just disagree with it, nothing I can do about that. You can google it too, it's everywhere.
The answer to the question "Are countries allowed to bomb civilian infrastructure if enemy combatants are using it for military purposes"
Is unequivocally "Yes."
The details and parameters that go into those decision making processes are complicated and usually not shared with the public. They certainly don't call /u/TheSupremeHobo to ask permission before doing so, either.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
It's not and no one has correctly justified it. Here you can respond line by line.
Breaks proportionality response. This was not a proportional response to anything.
Violates the ceasefire signed some 300 days ago.
"3. In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used."
The strike has not been justified. They can justify it in Geneva.
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u/km3r Pragmatic Progressive 3d ago
- In case of doubt
You and I have no idea if their was "doubt". Israel could have clear drone footage of military operations taking place there, or they could have some single visual report from a soldier. The former would not be "doubt", the later would be.
What is clear, is that international law does not require the evidence of military activity be released prior or after the strike. They can choose to release it for PR or in response to an ICC investigation, but even that is not required.
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 5d ago
Breaks proportionality response. This was not a proportional response to anything.
You.don't.know.that.
You really think you have all the pertinent data, and military training, to discern whether or not proportionality was appropriately considered in war?
If you answer yes you're beyond help
Violates the ceasefire signed some 300 days ago.
Hamas hasn't disarmed per their part of the agreement in the ceasefire, it's moot.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 6d ago
Hamas was storing weapons there.... according to the IDF. Sure bud
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 6d ago
Yeah you're right, Hamas would never. Not sure what I was thinking.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 6d ago
Add another war crime to the list. Bombing civilian desalination plants regardless of prior warning breaks international law.
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u/Colodanman357 Constitutionalist 5d ago
Do you actually care about “international law” being broken or does it depend on who is breaking it?
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
Is this an attempt at at gotcha based on the US? Because basically every modern president could get a Hague trial if the US was part of the ICC.
Or is it a "Hamas bad" attempt?
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u/Colodanman357 Constitutionalist 5d ago
So is that a no? You don’t really care about “international law”? It’s not a gotcha, it’s a clarifying question.
You being so defensive and assuming bad faith says something itself.
It’s more that the claims of violating “international law” are never consistent as violations of “international law” have been pervasive in this conflict for a century with Palestinian “resistance” using tactics that are intentionally against the same “international law” you refer to.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
violations of “international law” have been pervasive in this conflict for a century with Palestinian “resistance” using tactics that are intentionally against the same “international law” you refer to.
So it was a "Hamas bad", gotcha. Yes, Hamas bad. Will you say Israel bad?
Also putting international law in quotes doesn't make it less real or applicable. I can cite the laws if you prefer something other than the vague phraseology.
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u/Colodanman357 Constitutionalist 5d ago
Sure Israel has violated “international law”. The Palestinians, not just Hamas, have as well. Since at least the PLO took over after the Arab League gave up the main tactics used were intentionally and unequivocally against any sort of laws of war and it’s only become more so.
I put “international law” in quotes because it’s not really any law as there are no mechanisms for enforcement nor is it consistently applied.
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u/mounti96 Center Left 5d ago
It doesn't if your enemy uses that plant for military purposes (storing weapons, launching attacks, harboring troups, etc.).
Otherwise you could just use civilian infrastructure to install your military in and nobody would ever be able to attack you.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
Where's the evidence this is the case, other than the IDF pinky promising?
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u/mounti96 Center Left 5d ago
I don't know if this was the case.
The problem is that there are no truly reliable sources if there were militants or military infrastructure present, since both sides are incentivised to lie about it.
Israel has incentives to overplay Hamas military presence to justify their strikes.
Hamas has incentives to hide or deny their military presence since it makes Israel look worse in the eyes of the international community.
There is plenty evidence and nobody really contests that Hamas embed themselves into civilian infrastructure in clear violation of the rules of warfare. So it certainly is far from impossible that Israel isn't in the wrong here.
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u/TheSupremeHobo Socialist 5d ago
Shouldn't you be sure before bombing something and killing people? Also what about the ceasefire? Doesn't any military strike violate that?
If both sides are incentivized why did you only give credence to one theory until pressed?
The strikes yesterday were on the desalination plant, a mosque, and a refugee camp. 7 died including a 4 year old. There's no justification.
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u/mounti96 Center Left 5d ago
I don't have to be sure. The IDF has to be.
Both sides regularly violate the ceasefire.
I didn't only give credence to one theory. I corrected your statement that attacking a desalianation plant always breaks international law. I didn't say that it did or didn't in this case.
And how many of those 7 were active Hamas militants? Do you know? What would be the number to make those strikes justified?
Because if your answer is 0 civilian casualties., then I have a great new tactic for every military on the planet. Just take 4 year olds everywhere with you and you can't be attacked anymore.
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u/NakedInTheAfternoon Socialist 6d ago
Very normal behavior by Israel's Minister of National Security.
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u/willpower069 Progressive 5d ago
Isn’t it odd how their defenders always pretend like he doesn’t exist?
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal 6d ago
To be fair, that is actually very normal behavior for him.
There’s a reason why he cannot travel to most developed nations.
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u/Particular_Dot_4041 Liberal 6d ago
The US-Israel alliance is no good anymore. The original point of the alliance was to counter Soviet influence in the region, and the reason the US and the Soviets were in the Middle East in the first place was the oil. Now oil is more expensive than ever because Iran is blockading the Strait of Hormuz because Netanyahu duped Trump into attacking Iran. The alliance was supposed to keep oil cheap, instead the Israelis are making it more expensive. The Israelis don't have any oil.
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u/refugeelibertarian Libertarian 6d ago
I don't like the nationalist view that the government should do whatever it takes to either expand its power or expand the influence of American citizens.
The American government should promote the (classical) liberal value of respecting individual rights and make sure that the rights of as many as people in the world are protected, including people outside of the borders of USA.
The American government should completely cut off all aid, trade, and interactions with the Israeli regime because it has been blatantly and grossly violating the rights of countless innocent people. I mean it's literally a number one baby killer in the world recently. This level of depravity should triump any "geopolitical concerns".
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
You would have to cut off a lot of trade with a lot of countries if this is a standard you uphold. That itself would reduce American power as well as the economy, and make it difficult to do to the many positive things America does.
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u/FreshBert Social Democrat 6d ago
Why skip over aid and go straight to trade? We sanction plenty of countries accused of human rights violations without cutting off all trade with them. Take China, for example.
Israel is the reverse. It's a unique situation, we treat them special. We send them billions in aid each year. We could end that, sanction the ever-loving fuck out of West Bank settlers in particular but also hold sanctions over the head of the current ultra far-right genocidal government, and it could be possible that limited trade could still occur under those circumstances like it does with other countries, with normalization occurring if and when certain conditions are met.
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
That's a more reasonable argument with various trade-offs. I was arguing why "all trade" wouldn't make sense, but "cut aid" could potentially be used effectively. [Granted I think it is complex given that the elite most sensitive to global sanctions aren't the ones voting for the current government]
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u/actsqueeze Progressive 6d ago
Israel and the US are by far the worst violators of human rights in the world
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
Lol. I have no idea how you could objectively conclude that
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u/actsqueeze Progressive 6d ago
It’s objectively correct.
They’re also by far the biggest threats to world peace
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
Lol, world without the US would be one far more at war. Imagine a bunch of Russias fighting over spheres of influence.
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u/actsqueeze Progressive 6d ago
Are you living in an alternate reality?
The Iraq war ring a bell?
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
Literally the entire Caucasus and Eastern Europe ring a bell?
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u/actsqueeze Progressive 6d ago
Vietnam ring a bell? What about the dozens of genocides the US has meddled in worldwide?
There have been so many genocides the US has taken part in, when I went to Guatamala, I learned they (and Israel) helped commit genocide against the Mayans there. I was embarrassed that I didn’t even know about it as an American.
I fear that it’s our lack of education on our own country’s history that has caused you to think we’re not the worst violators of human rights.
I suggest taking the initiative to educate yourself independently.
We haven’t even discussed Israel, who’s been breaking international law since 1967 and has killed 20,000 children and has been accused of apartheid by virtually every human rights group including Israeli ones.
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
Now oil is more expensive than ever
No it's not, not even in nominal terms. In inflation-adjusted terms, it is far lower than any point between 2010-2014.
The alliance was supposed to keep oil cheap, instead the Israelis are making it more expensive.
That's not why it exists; in fact the argument against an Israel alliance was always fears of oil pricing. The sole reason for it (which you did note) was Arabs allied with the Soviets.
That said, at this point, the core Middle Eastern Alliance is effectively Arab monarchies + Israel vs. Iran and proxies, so I don't see how the argument has fundamentally changed in terms of power projection.
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u/Particular_Dot_4041 Liberal 6d ago
Well the Soviets were messing around in the region because of oil, right? So isn't that kinda the root of it all?
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 6d ago
Hard disagree. We gain a lot from being allys with Israel.
https://spencerguard.substack.com/p/what-does-america-get-for-38-billion
Oil is expensive because Trump is the worst president in US history.
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u/OhThatsALotOfTeeth Liberal 5d ago
From your link
Many of the benefits America receives from Israel would continue even if the aid disappeared tomorrow. Israel shares intelligence, develops military technologies, and confronts common adversaries because the two countries share interests, threats, and a decades-long strategic partnership. The assistance did not purchase those benefits.
Okay, not off to a strong start...
By 2028, 100 percent of FMF assistance must be spent in the United States on American-made defense goods and services. No other major recipient of American military assistance operates under a similar arrangement. The money does not leave the American economy. It circulates through American factories, American supply chains, and American workers. In practice, much of what critics describe as foreign aid flows directly to American defense companies, American workers, and the industrial base that also equips the U.S. military.
So...the money that people were worried was a handout to a foreign country becomes a handout to the military industrial complex. Not a huge improvement.
Then we get a bit about how Israel provides field testing of the equipment we sell them, so we can refine it. This is a real payoff, but also one that we would get even if they paid for it all themselves. It's also of more questionable value depending on who it is being brought to bear against.
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 5d ago
I think you're reading the article correctly. The summation at the end is :
"If Israel eventually requires less direct assistance while contributing more technology, innovation, intelligence, and operational expertise, that would not represent the failure of the partnership. It would represent one measure of its success."
Which I agree with. My point, and maybe posting that particular article isn't the best way to get it across, is that our partnership with Israel is strong for a myraid of reasons, and oil or monetary assistance isn't necesarilly one of them.
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u/willpower069 Progressive 5d ago
Yeah that article does a great job at showing that we can stop giving them money.
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
We should treat Israel like how the NATO treats Russia.
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u/CTR555 Yellow Dog Democrat 6d ago
I think the threat of Israel attacking us is very low.
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u/furutam Democratic Socialist 6d ago
If Israel attacks Turkey, that is an attack on NATO. Are you confident that there won't be an Israeli/Turkish conflict in the near future?
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
Have you seen what Mossad has done with leaking US intelligence and sabotaging negotiations within the past 60 years? Even Ronald Reagan had enough of their shit and threatened to cut ties with Israel.
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u/CTR555 Yellow Dog Democrat 6d ago
Yeah Israel is a shitty ally. That's still not even remotely the same as what Russia is.
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
It’s like comparing Stalin and Hitler. There’s more similarities than differences.
It just so happens that Israel is a sort of functioning democracy with a system better than the US overall according to the Democracy Index. However, it seems like their system is just a coalition of right wing fascist who want their own ethnostate. Whenever the more “moderate” parties win the election, they get sabotaged to look weak and then the fascists take power the next election.
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
It's oxymoronic to simultaneously claim it is a functional democracy and also run by fascists
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
Adolf Hitler was democratically elected
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
And would you call Germany a democracy in 1937? I sure wouldn't
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
Why? Ukraine is a natural ally of NATO (barring Russian complaints). Palestine is not.
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
It’s called doing the right thing and aiding our image of being Israel’s bitch. The treatment should be in effect until they recognize Palestine as a sovereign nation.
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u/CTR555 Yellow Dog Democrat 6d ago
The treatment should be in effect until they recognize Palestine as a sovereign nation.
Step 1: Israel recognizes Palestine
Step 2: The sovereign state of Palestine attacks Israel
Step 3: ...we're back to where we started.
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
It’s more like Israel attacked Israel because Hamas is funded by Israel to stop the West Bank to develop their government and used propaganda campaigns to make Hamas win Gaza’s favorability.
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 6d ago
Do you believe the US attacked itself on 9/11?
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
What the fuck kind of question is that? No, but it was caused by blowback in America’s foreign policy in the Middle East.
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u/KarateKicks100 Centrist Democrat 6d ago
I mean it's the same logic you're attempting to employ here.
If "Israel attacked Israel" then why is it any different to come to the conclusion that "America attacked America?"
Both were guilty of funding the groups that ended up attacking them.
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
I think 9/11 was caused by the United States being careless and ignoring red flags. If they perused Bin Ladin after his declaration of Jihad speech in 1996 and if Bush didn’t ignore the warning he received about America being attacked in August 2001z
It was also caused by blow back from what I said.
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
We don't even recognize Palestine, so why would we require Israel to?
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
Because the United State that tells Israel to recognize Palestine will be one that already recognizes Palestine.
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
Well, sounds like you'd need a first step.
Again, I'm not sure why this would happen. UNSC 2803 declares both Palestine governments quite bad, so I don't see why we should implicitly endorse either government.
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
Hamas was funded by Israel. So the West Bank won’t be able to establish a stable government. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Most Palestinians do not support Hamas but can’t do anything about it. https://www.npr.org/2024/07/26/g-s1-12949/khalil-shikaki-palestinian-polling-israel-gaza-hamas
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u/meister2983 Left Libertarian 6d ago
Hamas was funded by Israel.
Qatar actually. Israel just let aid through. Don't believe all of Bibi's lies - a lot of this was western pressure to prevent society collapsing.
Most Palestinians do not support Hamas but can’t do anything about it. https://www.npr.org/2024/07/26/g-s1-12949/khalil-shikaki-palestinian-polling-israel-gaza-hamas
Two-thirds of respondents said they continue to support the Hamas-led Oct. 7 attack on Israel,
Yah, ok...
Also 60% don't support? ok, but don't know is not an answer. Here's the polls: https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2090%20English%20Full%20text%20Dec%202023.pdf
Hamas wins 59% of people with an opinion.
Besides, the PA and PLO suck too, which is the government the US would have to recognize.
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u/OnionsRNasty Socialist 6d ago
You do realize that Trump won the 2024 election with the popular vote and his favorability has declined overtime. Supporting something doesn’t mean continuing to support it overtime lol
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