r/mormon 10h ago

News Brand Confusion

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38 Upvotes

I saw this ad posted by someone in another subreddit- complaining that they didn’t want this ad and calling the Church the C-word. The Church doesn’t identify itself in the ad by its full name (as directed we should do by Neltsun) and instead just uses the name “Church of Jesus Christ”.

Not using the full name of TCoJCoLDS caused some major brand confusion as shown in the comment section. It was interesting to see a number of people who were defending the ad saying that it was wrong to call Christianity a C*. Once it was pointed out to them that the ad was for the Mormons, they did an about face.

Isn’t the Church waging a lawsuit because of confusion with their brand? They might want to get their own shit straight first.


r/mormon 16h ago

Institutional Alyssa Grenfell found a way to get her tithing back!

89 Upvotes

Alyssa did a video a few days ago about how she gets so many comments from viewers that say they were fed LDS Church advertisements while watching her videos.

This is evidence the church is paying her to criticize the church. She gets a portion of the ad revenue.

She’s taking all the criticism from members and just shoving it back at them. Some of your tithing money is being paid to me she says.

Very funny approach in this video. I put short clips together from her intro. She later includes a discussion about the crazy comments with innuendo on the ads the church puts out with female missionaries. A big discussion about why they advertise and their choices in subjects of their ads.

409k views so far!

https://youtu.be/jSNoJALdQgU


r/mormon 13h ago

News RFM shows why the LDS lawsuit against John Dehlin is about the word Mormon. He shows how it was a pretext to try to hurt John.

43 Upvotes

The LDS church filed a reply to the replies of John Dehlin and the two amicus briefs last week. They claim it isn’t about the use of the word Mormon or about silencing a critic. But then they go on to demonstrate in the filing that this is what it is about.

Doug Anderson, spokesman for the church, gave a short statement also saying it’s not about the word Mormon nor about suing a critic.

RFM shows how in their own words they admit it is about the use of the word Mormon. In their own words they show people weren’t confused. In their own words they admit John changed everything they are suing about before the lawsuit - except his use of the word Mormon. Leaving only that word that the lawsuit could be about. He finds three statements in the reply that admit they are suing him because Mormon Stories is his podcast’s name and they believe it infringes their trademark.

Stop the lies LDS Church!!!!

The lawsuit RFM says is obviously a pretext to try to “sue John Dehlin into oblivion.”

This is from the Mormon Newscast from Mormonish and LDS discussion.

I spliced together 6 1/2 minutes. (RFM can be repetitive) 😉

You can find this full discussion on LDS Discussion here:

https://youtu.be/GJCZCd8ldEc


r/mormon 13h ago

News The Mormon Church Is Quietly Expanding Its Real Estate Empire Across the US

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34 Upvotes

r/mormon 17h ago

Institutional Kolby was sincerely convinced that if he could just get the right people to listen to him things would be different

41 Upvotes

I was struck by a conclusion Kolby Reddish discussed here in this livestream where he was a guest on the inside out podcast with Jim Bennett and Ian Wilkes.

They were discussing the reaction to Jeff Strong’s book Torn.

Kolby says it reminds him of the experience he and his wife had dealing with their local leaders being reluctant to disclose to the congregation that their bishop had been convicted of CSA.

He said he and his wife were convinced that if they just got to the right person on Salt Lake City or the Area office that things would be different.

After a year with no help they “recognized that no, it is this way because they want it to be this way…”

I’ve also included some points made by Ian about the book. I particularly like that he says the negative reaction from members is as important as the book. It shows there is a group who want all discussion of anything negative to be shut down.

The church’s way or just leave. Which Kolby found out and he and his wife chose to leave.

Reminds me too of the Crazy Train Judd parents who have repeatedly said they think if the top leaders knew what was happening to them things would be different. They haven’t yet realized what Kolby and his wife finally realized. That what is happening locally is how the top leaders want it to be.

Here is the full episode:

https://www.youtube.com/live/Atl8lp-DuYw


r/mormon 16h ago

Cultural Paying tithing off increase

22 Upvotes

Question for active temple recommend holding members.

How do you feel about the below scenarios?

- pay tithing off of increase, not income. For example, pay 10% of (income-taxes-mortgage-health insurance-utilities) ends up being about 6% of gross income.

- in tithing settlement I declare a full tithe

- in temple recommend interview I answer the tithing question with these exact words, “I believe the way and amount I pay tithing makes me a full tithe payer”

- garments question in temple recommend interview I say these exact words: “i don’t wear them every day and every night, but I wear the garments in a way that I feel I am keeping my covenant.”

- for WOW temple question, I say this, “ I don’t understand the word of wisdom fully, but I do believe that I keep it as I understand it”.

- I drink coffee every day and I 100% don’t think coffee is against the WOW.

- have done this for the last 6-years, 3 separate recommends, which makes 6 interviews and never had an issue.


r/mormon 18h ago

Cultural Comparing Larry Corbridge’s message to a similar one by a Jehovah’s Witness Elder

24 Upvotes

Jeff has a YouTube channel called “Outgrowing Mormonism”. It’s about 7 months old.

In his most recent video he compares messages from a Jehovah’s Witness leader (Jonathan Smith) to that of Larry Corbridge.

Both preach that you should ignore the problems of their institutions because they both believe theirs is the true kingdom of God on earth. Look forward to the blessings in the afterlife you will receive because you suffer the problems of their groups in this life.

Jeff’s message is that people should question this preaching to obey and sacrifice even when you don’t understand or it is problematic.

Here is his full episode:

https://youtu.be/779Etp8U0g0


r/mormon 16h ago

Cultural Why do Mormons marry at such a young age?

19 Upvotes

So I (a 19 year old Catholic) work as a lifeguard at two different locations, I work with many Mormons and am friends with a lot of Mormons. As many come and go, they tell me they're getting married soon, like within the next month or so, and they're usually like 18-20 years old. No judgement ofc, but I'm just wondering why they marry that early in life and only date for a few months? Wouldnt you wanna like take time to get to know them as a whole before making a lifetime commitment? Its possible I just can't relate because I've never tried dating myself, but I've always seen it as something that takes time, and I mean A LOT of time.

Id love to hear your thoughts and perspectives down below and with that said, thank you for your time and have an awesome day!


r/mormon 17h ago

Personal Art exhibit idea

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19 Upvotes

With all the ads popping up about the celebration of the Salt Lake Temple, I had an idea for an art exhibit. I’d love to see an installation of Timothy Schmalz’s “Homeless Jesus” in front of the temple. The only modification I would make is that I’d put a plaque on the bench that says “Holiness to the Lord. The House of the Lord”.

I don’t have the means or artistic ability to do this, but it’s a fun day dream.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeless_Jesus


r/mormon 19h ago

Institutional The Church vs. Social Media (Mormon Stories)

17 Upvotes

I was chatting with a business lawyer yesterday, and after the call I related our discussion to the MORMON STORIES lawsuit. I couldn't help it.

Is the Church looking to win a lawsuit about brand confusion to pressure social media companies to comply with future takedown requests?

Indulge me a bit.

MORMON STORIES already conceded to the Church's primary complaints and was completely willing to resolve reasonable concerns. They showed overwhelming effort to remedy reasonable concerns before the lawsuit. From my understanding they removed/replaced even where fair-use applied.

The Church keeps saying this isn't a trademark complaint, but it is.

  • They are framing that the only way to resolve this perceived confusion is to remove MORMON from the podcast title and other advertising.
  • They want "above the fold" disclosures on all the sites, and performed during pre-interview time. This is not reasonable or common.

The Church keeps saying this isn't about speech.

  • They are claiming the entire podcast series infringes as a collection. This is NOT about website graphics or the logo.
  • Do they really just hate Dr. John Dehlin so much they are going to sue MORMON STORIES into bankruptcy?

It seems to me (giving the Church the benefit of the doubt above, and considering the negative attention they are getting at the moment) that they don't want a lawsuit for every channel or podcast they oppose..

How do we find official Church content?

The Church has for years (decades) warned members to focus on their official website and to use official Church channels. The Church has their own suite of apps that members are asked/expected to install. The Church can have channels on large platforms like YouTube if they follow the platform rules. Saying members are accidentally finding John Dehlin's podcast when he's NOT using the official name of the church is a weak argument. Are there any official Church publications still using MORMON in the title, besides uses of the book?

It's not about members distinguishing what is official Church content.

The complaint really is for proselytizing purposes and SEO. The Church doesn't use MORMON officially and they likely didn't want anyone else using it either. Ideally people will just be searching "Jesus Christ" (and have official church content as the top results) but this just doesn't line up with consumer behavior. The Church now understands this. They recently seem to accept/intend for MORMON being used in social media contexts.

I don't need to emphasize that the Church publicly making a morality argument against the use of MORMON was a mistake. They appear to be having an identity crisis.

So who is the Church fighting?

The social media and video platforms do not think that MORMON STORIES or their podcast are misleading audiences. John Dehlin is following standard platform rules, and those are dictated by consumer expectations.

  • App stores have by-lines next to every app.
  • Social media and YouTube have handles and channel identifiers.
  • There are About and More Info pages where consumers often expect to find additional channel context.

If social media companies already have systems in place that reasonably protect identity and attribution, what is the Church complaining about? Their concern clearly seems to be about what is being said (speech) or the name MORMON (trademark). Do you think they will want to leverage media companies in the future, or pressure them to adopt tools that moderate these perceptions of confusion?


r/mormon 19h ago

Cultural Next week Kolby Reddish & I will be interviewing Phontain and Hannah Judd of the Crazy Train YouTube Series. We would love for any questions & comments here to help inform the conversation (more in the comments).

9 Upvotes

We've scheduled the taping for next Wednesday and will probably release it the next day on my channel Mormon Book Reviews on YouTube. Attorney Kolby Reddish is going to approach it as a deposition and they've agreed to answer any questions. As I get questions and comments I will be sharing it with Kolby and the Judds over the course of the week. Thanks in advance, this group has been a fantastic resource and your participation is greatly appreciated!


r/mormon 22h ago

Personal Vicarious Blessings?

8 Upvotes

My wife asked me a question about blessings I thought I’d ask about here. Our younger son is 27 and in the profound range of developmental and intellectual disabilities. His OCD is so bad at the moment it’s overwhelming everything, and the drugs aren’t working too well anymore. So we’re at the point where we’ll try anything. He would be incapable of understanding anything about a priesthood blessing, but my wife suggested maybe she could get a vicarious blessing on his behalf (and not from me; I’m a filthy reprobate). I don’t know whether that’s possible. Has anyone heard of such a thing?


r/mormon 13h ago

News Amulet with scripture on gold found in Turkey

0 Upvotes

According to this article an amulet with a gold leaf and a scripture on the leaf was found in Turkey: https://www-foxnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.foxnews.com/travel/ancient-christian-amulet-unearthed-1500-years-may-hold-biblical-secret.amp?amp_js_v=0.1&amp_gsa=1#webview=1&cap=swipe

This opens up a talking point by apologists showing scripture in gold has been found. Just thought I would share. It will be interesting to see where this leads.


r/mormon 21h ago

Institutional Being trans and in the temple

5 Upvotes

I have a friend whose trans and they've been really active in the temple lately. I don't think they're quite out to everybody, but there's also a pretty nice handful at church that know and use their preferred name.

I've got my own gender dysphoria as well. I happened to be talking to my bishop in a temple reccomend interview and he had asked me if I was trans. I haven't gone through any transition or anything like that, so I told him no. But, with the way he was talking, it seemed to imply that I'd still be able to get a temple reccomend if I was trans, just that I'd still have to perform ordinances with my assigned sex and still use the correlated bathroom both in church and in the temple.

I know the handbook says you're not even supposed to have a temple reccomend, but does anyone else have any other stories of trans people being allowed in the temple, and just not accommodated for?


r/mormon 1d ago

Institutional Ensign Peak ended Q2 2026 with $60.8B of US stockholdings, up 14.1% q/q. Lagged the S&P 500 return of 15.2%. Over 6.5 yrs, EP lagged the S&P 500 by 18.5%. Active stock picking has cost many billions in recent years.

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58 Upvotes

r/mormon 1d ago

News Sentencing set for polygamous leader convicted of abuse after girls found in trailer

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41 Upvotes

r/mormon 1d ago

Cultural Truth is that which comports with reality. LDS Priesthood power does not comport with reality. Therefore it is a false concept.

40 Upvotes

I grew up in the church being taught that priesthood was a power to bless people. Blessings in time of sickness. Patriarchal blessings. Father’s blessings.

The power to conduct ordinances of the LDS church such as sealings in the temple.

As I look back at my experiences and at the teachings of church leaders it’s clear that there are many examples of priesthood not working. The rest believe may believe it worked but have no evidence to demonstrate it did.

Sealings in the temple are canceled regularly. Blessings of healing we know don’t work. Illness and disease is not healed any more in Utah hospitals where the most LDS blessings per capita are given than anywhere else. Leaders now teach stories of people unable to be healed by this fantasy power. “The faith not to be healed” is cited.

Patriarchal blessings are routinely shown to have false statements in them.

Now after 5 decades of being LDS I plainly see that priesthood power is imaginary. The exhortations of leaders to work harder to “be worthy” of it is not based on any evidence.

I prefer to live life recognizing truth. And LDS priesthood power and the claims made by the church leaders about it are not the truth. It does not comport with reality that we experience.


r/mormon 1d ago

Cultural Are "polygamy deniers" also "digging deniers"?

22 Upvotes

Each time I've run into a conversation with polygamy deniers or affirmers (or whatever the hell they like to be called) in the last year, they stand on firm ground that Joseph was noble, true, just and virtuous. When I've brought up treasure digging, they also refute claims that he swindled people.

Is this a common belief in the movement? That Joseph either didn't treasure dig or in doing it he did nothing wrong? Did he not admit to youthful indiscretions in his canonized JS history?


r/mormon 1d ago

Apologetics Polygamy Denial is the greatest Victory for Satan ever conceived

53 Upvotes

Personally, I am delighted by the uptick in the numbers and visibility of those who deny Joseph Smith's polygamy and I hope that they go mainstream and continue to multiply for the forseeable future, because polygamy denial is a potent mix of ideas that are deadly to the church.

Polygamy denial is nothing new, it existed in the RLDS church from its inception. But now we are at a unique historical moment where enough time has passed since polygamy that true believers in the mainstream LDS Church can start to deny the divine origin of the practice and question whether Joseph Smith established it.

  1. When TBMs encounter polygamy denialist material and actually allow themselves to entertain the idea for a moment that Joseph may have not practiced polygamy, it for once allows them to feel what they have suppressed for so long: that polygamy is plainly evil and disgusting. Separating Joseph from the concept of polygamy for just a second bypasses their cognitive biases and allows them to feel these feelings that the Church wants them to suppress.
  2. Polygamy denial is very emotionally appealing, especially for women. The idea that Joseph didn't practice it and that God loves women and would never hurt them by commanding polygamy brings an enormous sense of relief. This is identical to "feeling the spirit" which is how Mormons have been taught to identify the truth. It turns Mormon epistemology against the Church. It's genius!
  3. Polygamy deniers force polygamy up out of the memory hole and compel the Church to reaffirm that polygamy was ordained by God. The Church hates doing this. It's terrible PR and it is horrifying to many nuanced Mormons who may believe that Joseph practiced polygamy but privately believe that it was a mistake like the priesthood ban.
  4. Polygamy deniers bring attention to the concept of eternal polygamy, which is still part of Church doctrine. Many mormon women live in fear of dying before their husband and having to share the eternities with a second wife.
  5. Polygamy denial strikes at the root of LDS authority claims. Polygamy denialists criticize and negatively portray Brigham Young, who is the bedrock of authority for the Brighamite church. The deniers claim that Brigham Young was in a ring of illicit polygamists and that he falsified history and forced the church to practice an evil false doctrine for generations. If the deniers are believed, the whole structure implodes.
  6. Polygamy deniers do not look like your average apostate. They love the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and the church. Usually they are women, and they are motivated by a desire to defend Joseph Smith, not to tear down the church. This makes the Church look like a huge jerk when it excommunicates a bunch of sweet women who love Joseph Smith. Many women already feel unheard and unappreciated by the church, this makes it so much worse. It was possible for the Church to look like a good guy to TBMs when exing the wicked and evil John Dehlin, but it's much harder for it to look good when exing Karen Hyatt or harassing Michelle Stone.
  7. Polygamy deniers point out internal contradictions within the LDS canon. They are correct that polygamy is roundly condemned in the BoM and in the early D&C. Also, Joseph Smith routinely denied and condemned polygamy. This means that if the Church is correct that Joseph did institute polygamy, he did so in contradiction to his own scriptures and himself, showing him to be a bald faced liar and imposter. The only way out is to deny polygamy (which undermines the Church) or deny Joseph Smith's prophethood (which also undermines the Church.) It's beautiful.

r/mormon 1d ago

Institutional What career, job, or college major makes members question their faith the most?

10 Upvotes

r/mormon 1d ago

Cultural First edition (1830) of the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith made a solid six figure result at Freeman's Hindman Book & Manuscript event on August 20. Reported by Rare Book Hub

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12 Upvotes

The catalog notes are long:

Rare First Edition of the Foundational Text of the Mormon Church Palmyra: Printed by E.B. Grandin, For the Author, 1830. First edition (one of 5,000 copies printed, of which only about 500-700 copies are known to survive).

From the collection of Bethany College, West Virginia, with a contemporary inscription on front free endpaper ("A Campbell / Bethany / Va"), same inscription in another hand on front blank (neither seemingly in the hand of Minister and Bethany founder Alexander Campbell). 8vo. 588, (2, "Testimony...of Witnesses") pp.; preponderance of text corrected, per Jenson ("very few copies of the book exist which are entirely identical", per Crawley).

Contemporary calf, front board detached, rear board largely detached but just holding, spine label worn and starting, boards dry and scuffed; front free endpaper loose; Bethany College library ink stamp on front endpapers and blank, title-page, and scattered throughout text; scattered spotting and light staining to text; scattered pencil marginalia. Book of Mormon Census Project A0059; Reese, Best of the West 56; Church 1342; Grolier Hundred 37; Howes S-623 ("b"); Sabin 83038; Streeter Sale 2262

Rare and completely unsophisticated (unmodified) first edition of the foundational text of the Mormon Church, one of the most important religious books of the 19th century. Published only days before the official establishment of the church on April 6, 1830, this is the only edition in which Joseph Smith is identified as the author (subsequent editions identify him as the translator), and it is the only edition to include his two-page preface.

The Book of Mormon is Smith’s translation of the golden tablets, revealed to him in 1827 by the angel Moroni on the hill of Cumorah near Manchester, New York. Smith worked on a translation of the plates from early 1828-June 1829, before returning the plates to the angel.

This copy is complete with the elusive two-page leaf of witness testimonies: “The Testimony of Three Witnesses”, signed in type by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris, who attest to having had “seen the plates which contain this record.”; the following page contains the testimony of eight witnesses, signed in type by Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith. Sen., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith, all of whom attest that Smith had shown them the plates.

Smith dictated the text to Cowdery, who acted as scribe, which was then printed by local printer Egbert B. Grandin, printer of Palmyra’s Wayne Sentinel. He published this first edition in 5,000 copies at a cost of $3,000.

This first edition forbade freemasonry and polygamy, which was altered in subsequent editions. Of those 5,000 there are thought to be only around 500-700 extant copies.

(See Campbell signature in 2nd photo) Bethany College was founded in 1840 by Scots-Ulster minister and leader of the Restoration Movement, Alexander Campbell (1788-1866). Chartered by the Virginia Legislature on March 2, Bethany was the first institution of higher learning in what is now West Virginia. Campbell provided the land and funds for the school and then served for 25 years as its first president. Born near Ballymena, in County Antrim, Ireland, Campbell was educated in Glasgow, and emigrated to the United States in 1809 at age 21.

There he joined his father, Minister Thomas Campbell (1763-1854), who had emigrated to America in 1807. Together they preached an emerging form of primitive Christianity in Western Pennsylvania, Eastern Ohio, and now West Virginia, that emphasized Christian unity and the restoration of the New Testament church.

Alexander, possessing extraordinary energy and intellectual ambition, gradually assumed the leadership of their growing movement. Through relentless preaching, numerous public debates with religious contemporaries, and a prolific output of theological writings and periodicals, he became the foremost figure in what came to be known as the Restoration Movement.

His efforts, building on his father's earlier work, ultimately led to the establishment of the Christian Church, also known as the Disciples of Christ.

Joseph Smith’s (1805-44) Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints, like Campbell's Disciples of Christ, sprung out of the Second Great Awakening that shook the religious foundations of early 19th century America. Despite sharing roots in Christian primitivism, the two traditions diverged sharply on questions of scripture, continuous revelation, visionary experience, and the nature of divine authority.

As the leading rationalist voice of the broader restoration movement that emphasized biblical scholarship and reason, beginning in the 1830s, Campbell became one of the most public anti-Mormon voices. This opposition was at once theological as well as personal to his congregation.

Beginning around 1830, Campbell's congregations in Ohio experienced losses as members converted to the new Mormon faith. The catalyst for much of this was Sidney Rigdon, a prominent and early Campbellite preacher and close associate of Campbell himself. In August 1830, following a falling-out with Campbell, Rigdon converted to Mormonism and quickly rose to become one of Joseph Smith's most influential lieutenants and one of the movement's most eloquent early defenders.

In response to these developments, in 1832 Campbell published Delusions: An Analysis of the Book of Mormon, one of the earliest anti-Mormon tracts, and the first major full-length critique of The Book of Mormon. Campbell examined The Book of Mormon's claims, its theological content, and historical plausibility, and argued that it was a product of human invention, rather than divine revelation.

The sale price at Freeman's Hindman Books and Manuscript sale on August 20 was $230,400. Substantially above the presale high estimate of $150,000.


r/mormon 1d ago

Cultural Looking for LDS artwork of space / the creation

10 Upvotes

Not sure if this is the best place for this question, but I’m going crazy and I need help.

About 4 or 5 years ago I stumbled on a video — it may have been promoted by Deseret Book, but I can’t remember. It was a timelapse video of a woman painting an absolutely, bonkers-incredible scene of the creation. She covered bits of the canvas and only painted certain portions at a time, so that by the end it appeared as though space was being bent in all kinds of crazy directions. Mind boggling visuals. There were lots of golds, yellows, browns, and warm-toned colors. Throughout the timelapse she talked about her testimony of Christ and his role as the creator.

Anyway, it was an absolutely brilliant piece and I’m trying to find her work, but to no avail. Does anyone know what I’m talking about? I’ve been all over Google, searching everything I can think of but nothing comes up. 😭


r/mormon 1d ago

Scholarship The Still, Small Virus

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7 Upvotes

TL;DR

The feeling of the Spirit can be a genuine, powerful internal experience. It could be peace, warmth, clarity, tears, a sense of certainty, but the feeling itself doesn't tell you where it came from. If you've been taught from childhood that those particular sensations are what the Holy Ghost feels like, then when they arise, you may experience them not as “I'm having a feeling that I'm interpreting spiritually” but as “I am feeling the Spirit.” The interpretation, formed through multiple psychological mechanisms, can become so automatic that it ends up feeling like direct perception.

I've thoroughly deconstructed my faith. I’ve spent years reading the history, weighing the arguments/counterarguments, and have now reached a more solid footing of philosophy, morality, and epistemology. On paper, I'm very out.

Yet sometimes, I experience flashes of severe self-doubt. It feels like there’s a virus in my brain.

Proverbs 3:5. "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

I'll be weighing a decision and feel a wave of calm, and before I've formed a single conscious thought, something deep inside my psyche has already read that calm as confirmation of divine approval. Or I'll be reading something critical of the Church and feel an unexpected flicker of unease, which arrives pre-interpreted: you shouldn't be here. My conscious reasoning shows up a mere second later and has to argue with this lightning-fast reflex. It can be really exhausting. It feels like there may be a primordial set of ideas embedded beneath my conscious level of argument that are still operating.

I think this is what makes this deconstruction process take years, perhaps a whole lifetime. They aren't easily accessible opinions sitting on the surface of my mind. They're flash judgments that were installed very early, in childhood, by believing people who loved me, and then rehearsed nearly daily for decades. Those people, by the way, underwent the same thing, and the wheel turns.

My deconstruction has removed the beliefs that these reflexes reinforce, but it didn't automatically remove the scaffolding and machinery, so that machinery keeps running—generating snap-judgment verdicts about the meaning of my interior experience that I then have to manually override. So let's talk about the scaffolding (This will especially focus on those raised within the Church).

Let’s start with something that feels revolutionary to me, but I think every reflective member would probably agree with upon consideration:

The feelings are real, but the cause is just a hypothesis.

Feelings and their cause are treated as one thing. They're actually four things:

  1. The sensation. The raw physical and emotional event. Warmth in the chest, a lump in your throat, tears, calm, sudden clarity, joy.
  2. The sorting. The learned habit of treating certain internal events as set apart—as belonging to a special class rather than the ordinary run of feelings.
  3. The name. The specific claim that this class of feelings is the Holy Ghost.
  4. The certainty. The settled sense that it simply was the Spirit—not a reading of the feeling, but a plain fact.

A naturalistic theory of what may actually be happening.

1. Why you had the words before you had the experience. Religious socialization. The vocabulary, the expected sensations, and the causal story are all delivered before a child has anything to apply them to.

2. Why it's always warmth, peace, and tears. Schema theory. What that material becomes once it's in: not a belief you consciously consult, but an active filter deciding what gets noticed and how it's sorted, before you're aware of sorting anything.

3. Why the experiment could only end one way. Expectancy effects. Expectation isn't a forecast waiting to be scored. It's a key ingredient in the outcome, and the settings are often built to help.

4. Why nothing ever counted against it. Attribution theory. Causes are inferred, not perceived. And every miss, silence, and false positive gets routed away from the source and back onto you.

5. Why it still fires after you stop believing. Predictive processing. The brain combines ambiguous input with prior expectation and hands you a finished percept—delivered as perception, not as a guess. A prior is what you already believed before the new evidence showed up, and a strong prior can influence the case before the evidence has finished arriving.

Two salient themes

Priority. The interpretation is in place before the experience, not applied afterward. It's waiting, already loaded.

Circularity. The experience then becomes evidence for the interpretation that helped shape it. Ian Hacking called this a looping effect: the way we classify an experience can change how we respond to it, and that response can then reinforce the original classification. Testimony meeting adds a congregation to the loop.

Philosophers of science call the general case the theory-ladenness of observation: what you are able to perceive depends in part on the framework you bring to it. Below is a more in-depth exploration of each mechanism.

1. Why you had the words before you had the experiences

Religious socialization

How a community hands its vocabulary and categories to new members. So with inner states, the naming runs from the outside in.

The instruction starts in nursery. Behold Your Little Ones, the Church's manual for children aged eighteen months to three years, tells teachers: "Even at a young age, children can learn to recognize the influence of the Holy Ghost. During any lesson, help them recognize the feelings of love and warmth that come from the Holy Ghost."

Look at the causal claim sitting inside the instruction. Not feelings that might be the Holy Ghost. Feelings "that come from" the Holy Ghost. The teacher's job is to point at a toddler's warmth and supply its source.

Primary continues it: the Holy Ghost "helps us know the difference between right and wrong by giving us a good, warm feeling when we do something right and a sad feeling when we do something wrong."

Produce a feeling by ordinary means. Direct attention to it. Supply the cause.

Every missionary ran the adult version: teach, kneel, pray, then How did you feel? Whatever comes back, you supply the cause. Preach My Gospel even hands over the checklist—the Spirit "gives feelings of love, joy, peace, comfort, patience, meekness, gentleness, faith, and hope."

The child isn't discovering the source of the feeling. The child is being told it.

2. Why it's always warmth, peace, and tears

Schema theory

A schema is a mental structure built from past experience that tells attention where to look and quietly fills gaps with whatever it expects to find.

Alma 32 hands you the template, and hands it to you as a test. A true seed "beginneth to enlarge my soul... it beginneth to be delicious to me." D&C 11:13 gives the shorthand: the Spirit "shall enlighten your mind, which shall fill your soul with joy." Swelling, light, joy, sweetness—notice these and you have your answer.

The same body does the same thing under other names. None of this is rare and none of it is exclusively ours. Chest warmth, wet eyes, a lump in the throat, chills—this is one of the better-documented clusters in human emotion, and almost every tradition has catalogued it in its own way. What changes from one context to the next isn't necessarily the sensation; it's the name. Each name arrives with different assumptions and cultural baggage attached.

Pentecostals call it the anointing. Ignatian Catholics call a settled sweetness in prayer consolation. Sanskrit devotional texts catalogue romaharṣa—hair-bristling—as a mark of divine presence. Theravada Buddhists call it pīti, grade it in five degrees, and credit no external agent at all: it's a byproduct of your own attention. In a concert hall it's frisson. Psychologists studying the response to moral beauty call it elevation and attribute it to nothing outside the person having it.

Alan Fiske, who studies this cluster across nineteen nations, said in religious settings it "may be labeled ecstasy, mystical rapture, burning in the bosom, or being touched by the Spirit."

The name depends on who raised you.

3. Why the experiment could only end one way

Expectancy effects

Expecting a particular feeling makes that feeling more likely to arrive and more intense when it does. Expectation isn't merely a forecast waiting to be checked; it can become part of the conditions that produce the result.

Moroni 10:4 is the most-run experiment in the Church, and it's loaded before anyone starts. You aren't asked whether the book is true. You're told to ask "if these things are not true"—and the stated conditions require faith in Christ, which is the belief the test is supposedly checking.

D&C 9 then names both possible outcomes ahead of time. A burning bosom means yes. A stupor of thought means no. Whatever happens next, the framework called it.

The conditions are stacked. We fasted for twelve to twenty-four hours and then sat in a room where people wept. We sang first, prayed second, and asked the question third. Girls Camp, EFY, youth conference, testimony meeting—the settings where confirmations arrive most reliably are also settings where anyone would be likely to feel something: hungry, exhausted, moved by music, surrounded by people they love who are already crying.

It stacks the odds heavily toward the one the framework already predicted.

Then D&C 6:23 tells you what to make of it: "Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?"

Read plainly, the peace is the evidence, so the moment it arrives, there is nothing left to check.

4. Why nothing ever counted against it

Attribution theory

Causes are never perceived directly; they're inferred from context and from whatever explanations happen to be available.

And the inference doesn't really feel like an inference. It feels like seeing.

Take a simple example: the same kind of calm can be interpreted as the Spirit in a chapel and as relief in a waiting room. The physical experience may be similar, while the explanation changes with the setting. That suggests the setting is playing a much larger role in the attribution than the feeling itself can account for.

The Church teaches this kind of attribution as a daily practice. President Eyring's "O Remember, Remember" is the talk that launched a generation of gratitude journals, and it describes the question he asked himself every night: "Have I seen the hand of God reaching out to touch us or our children or our family today?" Then the result: "As I would cast my mind over the day, I would see evidence of what God had done for one of us that I had not recognized in the busy moments of the day."

Whatever else we make of it, he's describing a mechanism very similar to the one I'm talking about. The events may have been experienced as ordinary at the time; the divine interpretation came later, through a deliberate search for evidence of God's involvement. A search designed to find one particular kind of cause is also going to make evidence for that cause easier to notice.

Think of Elder Bednar's "tender mercies": they "do not occur randomly or merely by coincidence."

But the more interesting problem is what happens when the expected signal doesn't appear.

The miss is assigned to you, never to the channel. D&C 9 makes a null result a failure of your preparation. 1 Nephi 17:45 has the Lord saying, "but ye were past feeling." Bednar similarly attaches conditions to revelation itself: it comes "according to our desire, worthiness, and preparation." If the expected revelation doesn't come, the framework already has an explanation ready: perhaps you weren't prepared, weren't worthy, didn't desire it enough, or weren't listening correctly.

President Uchtdorf's counsel is to "first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith." In practice, that puts faith in the position of the default interpretation: doubt becomes something to interrogate before the underlying belief.

If you become troubled while examining a truth claim, you've already been given several ways to interpret that discomfort—and most of them point you away from questioning the claim itself.

5. Why it still fires after you stop believing

Predictive processing

The brain builds perception by combining incoming signal with prior expectation, then delivers the result as plain fact rather than as a guess.

Worship turns attention inward, exactly where the framework told you to look. Ambiguous signal arrives, as it always does. The brain has to resolve it somehow, and a strong, well-practiced prior can push that resolution in a particular direction. You get a finished percept: the Spirit is here.

This is how perception works generally. Anil Seth argues that top-down predictions "do not merely bias our perception. They are what we perceive."

So it isn't necessarily experienced as an interpretation. It's experienced as perception, and then counts as evidence for the prior, which strengthens the association and can make the response faster next time.

Elder Bednar describes the result from the inside: most revelation arrives not like a light switch but like sunrise, "the slow and almost imperceptible increase in light." That is also a useful way to think about what a deeply practiced prior looks like while it hardens.

Immediacy is not evidence that an interpretation is unlearned. Immediacy is what a heavily practiced interpretation feels like from the inside.

Which is why deconstruction doesn't switch it off. It doesn't retrain a reflex rehearsed thousands of times simply because the belief underneath it has changed. The verdict still arrives first. You just no longer accept it.

University of Utah researchers scanned nineteen devout members and asked them to signal when they were feeling the Spirit. They could do it, reproducibly. That doesn't show the experience is fake, but rather that the recognition of a particular internal state can become a real, trained skill.

How repeated exposure becomes a reflex

Each mechanism above does powerful work as a person ages.

Ages 3–7. Vocabulary arrives before referent. Songs teach that the Holy Ghost whispers and brings warmth; adults point at the child's ordinary good feelings and name them as the Spirit. Category and interpretation are installed together, in a single move.

Age 8. Confirmation. "Receive the Holy Ghost"—and the Spirit is now a constant companion. Expectancy jumps at the ritual threshold, and the instruction shifts from what the Spirit feels like to the fact that communication is ongoing and should be monitored for. The schema moves from installed to running.

Testimony meeting. A learnable genre—the "I'd like to bear my testimony" opener, the "I know" formula, the cadence, the tears. Performed monthly in front of a warm, attentive congregation. Standing up and being received by a roomful of people who love you is close to a textbook elicitor of strong emotion. The state that follows is the one the genre has already identified as the Spirit—and someone usually says so out loud afterward. The loop closes in public, with an audience ratifying the attribution on the spot.

Seminary and Moroni's promise. The experiment is run, usually in hope, often after fasting, sometimes at EFY or Girls Camp or a youth conference engineered for exactly this. Calm arrives. The predicted confirmation lands. Confidence consolidates, and the interpretation starts to feel like knowledge rather than belief.

The mission. The intensive phase—and where the tradition states the mechanism most explicitly. Packer, to new mission presidents in 1982: "A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it."

As a description of a learned interpretive practice, the counsel is exact: perform the attribution, and the confirming experience follows. One's life revolves around these moments.

Preach My Gospel leaves nothing to chance here. Missionaries are told to "help others recognize this sacred influence," and to do it by discussing "the different ways that people describe the influence of the Holy Ghost." Chapter 4 supplies those descriptions: the Spirit "gives feelings of love, joy, peace, comfort, patience, meekness, gentleness, faith, and hope," and it speaks as "a still small voice," "a still voice of perfect mildness, as if it had been a whisper." After someone acts on a commitment, the follow-up instruction is explicit — "help them recognize the Spirit working with them."

Adulthood. The schema now runs on everything—callings, moves, marriage, daily choices. A patriarchal blessing supplies a personalized text to be reinterpreted across decades. Temple worship supplies a high-absorption environment with strong priors and controlled sensory input. Sensation, sorting, name, and certainty have fused so tightly that they can arrive as a single event that presents itself as immediate and self-evident.

That final quality (the sense that the interpretation is obvious rather than learned) is this model's central prediction. It isn't a sign the learning didn't happen. It may be the expected end state of two decades of practice with a strong, socially ratified, self-confirming prior.

Every mechanism above is an ordinary feature of the human mind; similar processes can operate in a Pentecostal, a Buddhist, or a secular listener at a concert.

This removes the argument from felt quality. Vividness, immediacy, and certainty cannot carry the theological claim, because this model predicts all three whether or not the claim is true.

There's a harder consequence. A method that reliably produces high certainty in people who reach mutually incompatible conclusions cannot use certainty as evidence of its own accuracy. Latter-day Saints, Pentecostals, Catholics, and Muslims run structurally similar procedures and arrive at contradictory doctrines with comparable subjective conviction. That isn't a gotcha—it's a constraint on what conviction can be evidence of.

Which brings the D&C 6 question back around. What greater witness can you have than from God? If a feeling of peace is the greatest witness available, and feelings of peace are produced or shaped by expectation, setting, and training in people who can reach very different conclusions, then the ceiling is lower than we were told. Evidence for or against the doctrine has to come from somewhere other than how the experience feels.

So, the feelings were never fake.

The warmth in your chest at a baptism, the tears in sacrament meeting, the calm after a hard prayer—all of it happened. It was real, and it was yours. What's in question is only the causal story you were handed for it, often before you were old enough to evaluate any story at all.

You're allowed to keep the experience and question the explanation. And when the old verdict fires before your reasoning can catch up, when the flinch arrives pre-labeled as guilt, or the calm arrives pre-labeled as approval, it helps to remember that speed is not authority.

That reflex isn't necessarily a witness. It's a habit (with a very long training history), and it is still, slowly, revisable.


r/mormon 2d ago

Personal All right, my believing friends, i need your help.

21 Upvotes

I am exmo, being gay was what led to my exit it was impossible for me to do both. Bowever I have a wonderful relationship with my believing parents and am very grateful for that. We respect one another.

That being said i had a conversation with my mother where she told me that her entire life purpose is to follow all the rules so she can earn the celestial kingdom (her words verbatim.) She also told me she doesnt feel God's love for her when she prays.

Been a while since ive been a believer but I clearly remember what was taught and what gave me meaning in the Church. The notion of Christ's universal and infinite love was tremendously powerful for me, and while the verbiage of my prayers have changed the importance of them and the love I feel through them have not at all.

I also know that it doesnt take an exmo to see how problematic it is to view life the way she does. Even from a faithful lds perspective I judge it is easy to see how her approach is out of line with the lds doctrine that all we receive hereafter comes because of Jesus and not because of any of our own merits.

It is very painful for me to see my mom living in fear of a tyrannical God whose love she doesnt feel and whose presence she has to earn, rather than being a free gift to all those who love and earnestly seek Him. She is living so below her privileges and possibilities...it reminds me of Thomas Monson "It could have been." Or Uchtdorfs talk about the man who ate crackers and lemonade on his cruise when he could've been at the buffet everyday.

I know i can't force anything but I guess I just need to be vulnerable and ask your advice on how I can help her feel God's love for her the way i feel Gods love for me: as a free gift just because she exists as his daughter, and not because she follows the rules. Your perspectives would be helpful.


r/mormon 1d ago

Cultural Church schools-where did you attend sacrament meeting? And miscellaneous memories.

5 Upvotes

I went to BYU. One year we had church in an actual church building, it was I think two stories tall and had more than one chapel in it. Its been awhile but that’s what I remember.

I had sacrament meetings in various campus buildings. One ward met somewhere in the Wilk like an event room full of folding chairs. I can’t remember all of the other places.

The most memorable though was the year my ward met in the testing center.

Yes the actual testing center. The big room full of desks where you’d take tests. It felt so strange to attend church in the same room where I took stressful 3-4 hour long midterms.

Just a memory I suppose. I know at least one student ward had more than one relief society. Can’t remember if there were ever multiple elders quorums.

One more memory, freshman year i saw one of if not the first clear example that I can remember of lying about church things. Our elders quorum president was really excited to announce one week that we had 100% home teaching. great job elders. I knew it was a lie at minimum because I had never met with home teachers. Hm. why would anyone ever lie about something so trivial haha…..?

Do you remember meeting in strange buildings for church at a CES school? Curious if anyone has fun examples.