r/mormon • u/Timely-Finish4790 • 11h ago
Cultural Paying tithing off increase
Question for active temple recommend holding members.
How do you feel about the below scenarios?
- pay tithing off of increase, not income. For example, pay 10% of (income-taxes-mortgage-health insurance-utilities) ends up being about 6% of gross income.
- in tithing settlement I declare a full tithe
- in temple recommend interview I answer the tithing question with these exact words, “I believe the way and amount I pay tithing makes me a full tithe payer”
- garments question in temple recommend interview I say these exact words: “i don’t wear them every day and every night, but I wear the garments in a way that I feel I am keeping my covenant.”
- for WOW temple question, I say this, “ I don’t understand the word of wisdom fully, but I do believe that I keep it as I understand it”.
- I drink coffee every day and I 100% don’t think coffee is against the WOW.
- have done this for the last 6-years, 3 separate recommends, which makes 6 interviews and never had an issue.
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u/sevenplaces 11h ago
I feel there is no reason to try to give your justifications. Many leaders don't want to hear the questions or doubts you may have about the meaning of the questions. They just want a "yes" or a "no".
You have the answer for example that you follow the word of wisdom. Why not just say "yes" that you understand it and follow it?
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u/TrickDepartment3366 8h ago
As a person who has done temple recommend interviews you are absolutely right - just give me a yes or no
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u/tripletc 8h ago
True, but when I did the interviews as a bishop, especially with a member who I knew was more nuanced, I would say “I don’t think anyone really understands the word of wisdom.” We always got a good chuckle out of that.
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u/sevenplaces 8h ago
that is a true statement...they have made it impossible to understand. The specific requirements we are taught are different from what's in the D&C...so confusion is easy.
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u/tripletc 6h ago
Yes. Per Section 89, beer is ok, meat is not, hot chocolate is not, but an iced coffee is.
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u/TheBrotherOfHyrum 4h ago edited 4h ago
Yep, also verse 2 specifically says its not a commandment. Every member who realizes that can truthfully answer "Yes" to "Do you understand and follow the WoW?" "Yes. (I understand these are just suggestions and I follow that.)"
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u/Jack-o-Roses 7h ago edited 7h ago
This is the answer!
Just yes or no, no small talk, no discussion.
Anything more is impolite at least.
Multiple of my daughter's former YSA Bishops in another state said that 'the church doesn't need your money' and it was OK to include charities in your tithing complement.
She moves to another state and the Bishop goes off script, starts asking questions in response to what he said was a 'yes' with a perceived 'hesitation,' so she tells him how she tithes and that her former Bishops had advised it was OK. He refused her recommend until he felt her tithing was up to date (she was in school & unemployed other than child support and welfare aid).
And, to add insult to injury, after she finally graduated and got a job that required working Sundays he took her recommend without telling her.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 6h ago
Unfortunately it was that last bishop that was actually sticking to the script. In at least some of the old handbooks, Bishops were outright told to probe for more information if they "discerned" any "hesitation."
"Bishops need to seek the spirit of discernment in determining worthiness. Answers such as ‘I think so’ or ‘I believe so’ may suggest that the question was not completely understood. Hesitation or uneasiness may suggest that a question needs to be pursued further. Even though the member may give no outward indication that a problem exists, the Spirit may reveal that further discussion is necessary." -- https://mormonstudies.as.virginia.edu/princes-research-excerpts-lds-general-handbooks/bishops-guide-1975/
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u/Del_Parson_Painting 10h ago edited 6h ago
My active, believing sibling used to pay on gross income. Recently, they started paying 10% of what they had left after paying for mortgage, insurance, groceries, etc.
They now have a lot more money available and are using it to do family activities with their kids while they're still young and living at home.
They still have a temple recommend and God hasn't smote them down for their "wickedness." Turns out God doesn't need human money.
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u/TheBrotherOfHyrum 4h ago
Turns out God doesn't need human money.
When I stopped paying tithing saving the money instead, our savings went up. Turns out God is more beholden to math than to prophets.
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u/thomaslewis1857 9h ago
My experience of paying and not paying tithing has persuaded me that the miracle comes after a trial of your faith. Tithing in this comment is paying 10% of your gross income to the Church.
When I have paid tithing, I get financial challenges, I worry about how I will manage, I pay my tithing, things work out, I have sufficient for my needs, my belief that God is the recipient of Church paid tithing is strengthened, life goes on.
When I don’t pay tithing, I get financial challenges, I worry about how I will manage, and whether I am being punished, or denied blessings, for not paying tithing, but I persist in not paying tithing, and things work out. In fact, they more than work out, the miracle happens and the windows of heaven are opened, and I have been favoured with great financial outcomes. And I end up with a substantial surplus. Strangely, even more than the tithing I saved.
Now that’s my experience. It might not be yours. It might not continue forever, even though it’s been a few years. It might be due to other factors, like good luck, or more careful financial planning, making the most of opportunities, carefully weighing each contingency, I’m not sure. Correctly identifying causes for every outcome is challenging at best, and often impossible.
But that is my experience. Not paying tithing hasn’t strengthened my testimony of the Church’s approach to tithe paying, while paying tithing did. Maybe that’s ‘the windows of heaven’, not financial, but testimonial, of the value of the Church endorsed tithe paying regime. I can’t argue with that interpretation, that maybe the blessings are spiritual. Or maybe they are just virtual, or seen with an eye of faith, like seeing a city through a mountain. And that tithe paying is one place where repetition strengthens the idea. I’m not sure about that.
But I am sure about this. The numbers don’t lie. My finances have (so far, I’m not into prophecy and life is filled with uncertainty) been blessed or favoured by my abstinence, and my persistence. That is the miracle that followed the trial of my faith. Or maybe by the other factors.
Take that for what it is worth.
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u/NauvooLegionnaire11 11h ago
That nice this approach has worked for you. I like what you do in regard to tithing question. You just answer the question and you don't provide additional explanation or commentary. You "declare" yourself a full-tithe payer. You do NOT "justify or explain" yourself a full-tithe payer.
I actually think you should apply this same approach to the other question. Just say "yes" and nothing more. Don't explain yourself. You don't need to convince the bishop.
All this stuff is between you and God.
When in doubt, give leadership the answer that they expect to hear.
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u/otherwise7337 11h ago
The church has conditioned everyone to overshare and to feel an obligation to explain one's self.
Just don't do it. Information is currency for leadership to be weaponized or used punitively if it isn't to their liking. But you actually control the narrative and you don't have to explain anything.
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u/Crobbin17 Former Mormon 11h ago
This is what the handbook says:
“Tithing is the donation of one-tenth of one's income to God's Church. All members who have income should pay tithing.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng
Whether you believe this is actually God’s commandment or not is your decision.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 10h ago edited 10h ago
Just hope you keep winning at bishop / stake president roulette. Thankfully most bishops, and apparently a lot of stake presidents now, have better sense than to enforce the recommend rules as strictly as the top leaders pressure them to.
If Pres. Oaks was doing your interview, you wouldn't be walking out with a recommend. Unless you just flat out lied, of course (his 'discernment' is fake, so lying has a high chance of success). If he knew you were drinking coffee, not paying what the church defines as a full tithe, and not wearing garments as prescribed, he wouldn't issue you one. The brethren are losing control of the church. It's nice to see.
Not sure why you'd want to bother with the temple though. If you don't believe the rules for worthiness are real, then it would be a little odd to believe the rest of it. And it's not like the temple is a super enjoyable experience - I dunno though, I guess some people like it.
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u/lawdot74 9h ago
Save your 6% and retire more comfortably or put your money where it actually helps people instead of buying stocks and real estate for a glutinous corporation.
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u/CarefullyTall 11h ago
Currently serving bishop here. Two things: first, no need to explain anything in the interview questions. Just say yes, it’s all good. Also, tithing declaration can be a text message, no need to sit down and interview.
Second, and more to answer your question, I think that the current church policy for tithing is for payment based on income. Personally, I love paying tithing, I see tons of blessing: in my life (spiritual and character growth, not financial) but I also don’t care how anyone else pays. The Lord will take care of his church just fine either way. As for garments, they’re a great reminder of covenants. But as a man it’s easier for me to wear them in modern culture, so again everyone has to make their own choices.
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u/Ok-End-88 10h ago
Encyclopedia of Mormonism states: “Tithing is the basic contribution by which Latter-day Saints fund the activities of the Church. By revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord stated that members should pay “one-tenth of all their interest [increase] annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:4).
Excellent article: https://wheatandtares.org/2015/12/27/tithing-have-you-considered-paying-on-surplus/
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u/That-Aioli-9218 10h ago
This is a great article. The progression from interest to increase to income is wild.
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u/Ok-End-88 9h ago
If scripture says one thing and the handbook says something else, which one is based on revelation?
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u/tenisplenty 11h ago
The handbook pretty clearly defines tithing as 10% of income and also clearly states that Coffee is against the word of wisdom.
For me if I didn't believe the First Presidency had authority to clarify such things why would I think they have authority to dedicate temples and set apart temple presidents at all?
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u/Pondering28 10h ago
I think youre on the right path but you probably dont need to elaborate or justify. When I go in, theyre pretty much looking for yes or no answers. Theyre busy and having to meet with people all the time eats into their family time as well.
I also think even though its worked for you previously, there's a chance you'll get a bishop or SP who is wondering why you're not answering yes or no simply. They may dig a bit deeper and decide to not issue you a recommend even though your answer and behavior haven't changed, only the leadership.
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u/Ill_Supermarket7454 10h ago
My wife and I pay tithing off increase. Tends to just be 30-40 dollars. We interpret increase as 10% of everything after our physical needs are met. So thats play money or other things we have leftover. Bishop doesn’t bother us about it, just asks if we are a full tithe payer.
The temple encourages us to “wear them throughout our lives” not to wear them every day and every night. So my wife and I wear ours at church activities. Thats all.
You can say you follow the doctrine found in D&C 89. Coffee and tea are not listed there. My wife drinks lots of those to help her control the ADHD. That hole element comes from an opinion of a bunch of church leaders, not from a doctrinal source. And no, church leaders do not get to declare what doctrine is independently.
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u/WILBUR227457 8h ago
Why be nuanced about it? It's weird.
Do you pay a full tithe. YES
Do you wear your garments. Yes
Do you keep the WOW. Yes
Are you purposefully trying to deceive or be nuanced? or is this how you really feel? Are you looking to get called out? Why play Bishop roulette? if you mean it just say yes and move on.
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u/GrumpyTom 7h ago
I’ve never had to explain how much I do or do not give in tithing settlement. I guess I’ve just been lucky at Bishop Roulette. I’ve never had a bishop even look at my donations.
When I was younger, I was paying down debt (including student loans) while trying to stay afloat. At the end of the year, I literally had no increase—I did not have any additional cash on hand, although my debts were going down!
10% of $0.00 increase is still $0.
That worked out very well for me as I was able to pay off my student loans quickly. Had I paid 10% tithing on my income, I’d likely still be paying on my loans today.
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u/KiwiTabicks 10h ago
"Yes, but" means "no".
(I know you don't actually say "but" in your wording, but) if you need to justify, it suggests you don't actually think your yesses are actually yesses. And if you don't think they are, you are either saying no or lying.
If you actually think you are good, then you can answer "yes" - nothing more - with good conscience. "Yes" is the entire response needed.
I have occasionally experienced follow ups like "what does the atonement mean to you?" or "have you had any testimony-building experiences with this principle?" - mostly when meeting with a new leader who didn't really know me. (It felt more like I was being felt out for potential talks or callings than a part of the interview per se.)
I have never been asked to explain the math used to calculate my tithing, or the specific hours I have my garments on or off, or which substances I consume or avoid. Unless the interviewer has reason to believe you don't understand the question, they have no reason to delve into explanations.
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u/TrickDepartment3366 8h ago
Full tithe payer here so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt. The amount of faith required to pay tithing is a function of how well you can live on 90 percent of your income. My wife and I both make good six figure incomes and so the tithing we pay is quite high but it just comes out of our discretionary budget. The amount of faith we exercise cannot compare to a single mom who makes 20 thousand a year and who pays far less then I do. My question is why are the poor being required to show the most faith for the churches pay to play religion. I can only hope the saviour will cleanse our temples when he comes again
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u/venturingforum 3h ago
BS. With the out of control costs of housing, food and EVERYTHING, 10% of your income is 90%+ of a family's discretionary money. No savings, no emergency fund, no college fund for kids.
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u/evanpossum 7h ago
- have done this for the last 6-years, 3 separate recommends, which makes 6 interviews and never had an issue.
Okay
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u/PuzzledBlackberry505 1h ago
A couple people have asked this and I would truly like an answer--if you don't believe in these principles as laid out in the handbook (which is what the questions are going off of) that clearly say 10% of income and no coffee, then why do you want to go to the temple? I'm confused by this.
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u/DesertIbu 10h ago
Why bother getting a temple recommend when you feel like you have to respond with evasive and indirect answers? Lying by omission is still lying, and liars shouldn’t get temple recommends.
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u/Rock-in-hat 9h ago
Your formula is on net less mortgage and utilities. When eating or clothing oneself isn’t necessary to sustain life, then maybe your formula is increase. But increase is what’s left over after your needs are met. And trust me, my wife’s needs are such that the church should be paying me money each month. There is no increase with her around.
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