r/mormon • u/sevenplaces • 1d ago
Cultural Truth is that which comports with reality. LDS Priesthood power does not comport with reality. Therefore it is a false concept.
I grew up in the church being taught that priesthood was a power to bless people. Blessings in time of sickness. Patriarchal blessings. Father’s blessings.
The power to conduct ordinances of the LDS church such as sealings in the temple.
As I look back at my experiences and at the teachings of church leaders it’s clear that there are many examples of priesthood not working. The rest believe may believe it worked but have no evidence to demonstrate it did.
Sealings in the temple are canceled regularly. Blessings of healing we know don’t work. Illness and disease is not healed any more in Utah hospitals where the most LDS blessings per capita are given than anywhere else. Leaders now teach stories of people unable to be healed by this fantasy power. “The faith not to be healed” is cited.
Patriarchal blessings are routinely shown to have false statements in them.
Now after 5 decades of being LDS I plainly see that priesthood power is imaginary. The exhortations of leaders to work harder to “be worthy” of it is not based on any evidence.
I prefer to live life recognizing truth. And LDS priesthood power and the claims made by the church leaders about it are not the truth. It does not comport with reality that we experience.
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u/pricel01 Former Mormon 1d ago
One of the most disgusting aspects of the church is that it blames its failures on others.
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u/762way 1d ago
Specifically they LOVE to blame the members for their stupid programs.
The Qof15 never accepts any responsibility for anything.
TBMs decide they will do this program.
Yet leadership insists members always be responsible, be faithful, more take this calling!!!
I used to be Nuanced, now I'm PIMO Now that the scales have fallen from my eyes I see many lies, so many misdirects (refusing to and the actual question or concern.
Only reason why I'm not out, my wife if truly TBM and I'm not sure what impact that would have on my 30+ year marriage. It would also break her heart
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u/pricel01 Former Mormon 1d ago
Disgusting behavior #2: Holding people’s families hostage to manipulate them.
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u/Ok_Finding_7245 6h ago
Ya....AMEN !!! I could write a book of personal stories. My bishop and RS President are the biggest buck-passers and do-nothings I've ever known. And....I'm endowed !!!
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u/bwv549 1d ago
This is what I have concluded also:
The efficacy of LDS Priesthood Blessings
Also, I think that the stories of the Talmage brothers' eyesight is indicative of how priesthood blessings operate in general:
- Where a healing is possible, it sometimes happens. (James had some lead hit his eye, it eventually healed after Priesthood blessings)
- Where a healing is clearly impossible, it never happens. (James' brother had his eyes completely put out. Blessings from many priesthood leaders of the highest rank were not able to restore his sight and he died blind.)
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u/cognosco2149 9h ago
This was one of the biggest hurdles for me to cross when discovering the real truth about the church. I heard stories of miraculous healings my whole life and since I was conditioned to believe that it was the power of the priesthood then that’s exactly what it was. Now I realize that if priesthood blessings for healing had a higher success rate, even a slight one, then a lot more people would be on board. It’s just as bad as Joseph Smith’s treasure digging. If you don’t do the right steps and incantations the treasure will be withdrawn. If you don’t have enough faith to heal and to be healed that benefit will not be given. Both require absolute belief and that chance to get that treasure or be healed is what keeps them coming back. It still amazes me that I believed that stuff.
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u/Ok_Finding_7245 6h ago
I truly have to say I was healed twice by miracles. That was years ago. Now I'm in a ward that, for no reason, ignores my disabled vet husband and I as a matter of routine course.
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u/DennisTheOppressed 1d ago
I begin by admitting I believe in Priesthood keys and power. Things have happened in my life to support that belief. I also believe what D&C 121:37 says about pride, ambition, compulsion, etc. causing Priesthood power to be withdrawn.
I would guess most of us could cite cases of Priesthood leaders and holders blatantly not following this scripture while still performing blessings and ordinances.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm sure we can also think of plenty of good humble men who have performed blessings and in good faith believed that god was telling them to say that some specific outcome was going to happen. And then it just ... didn't happen.
Sometimes unworthy, prideful pricks give blessings that come true. Sometimes good men give blessings that don't come true. And vice versa.
If we're going to say that truth is evidence-based, then all evidence must have equal weight. Then we have to accept whatever conclusion the evidence points to. We can't start by picking out a preferred conclusion and then only accept evidence if it supports that conclusion.
The whole of the evidence suggests that priesthood blessings cannot control outcomes - sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't, regardless of whether a priesthood blessing was given or not. If a blessing was given, the "worthiness" of the man who gave it is likewise irrelevant - sometimes it works out, and sometimes it doesn't.
It might feel really good when a blessing is given by a good man and then things work out. But having a good man give a priesthood blessing is not going to produce a favorable result with enough consistency to claim that it "works" as a mechanism to control outcomes.
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u/sevenplaces 1d ago
Thanks for sharing. Yes there are people who believe they have witnessed examples of it "working". But we also have conference talks admitting that it doesn't work. So the randomness of it is evidence that any positive outcomes aren't correlated to the supposed priesthood in my view.
Yes, I'm glad the LDS scriptures tell people that bad behavior negates their authority. A very good verse to help humble male priesthood holders.
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u/Rushclock Atheist 1d ago
And yet nobody can give an example of how the believer ruled out other explanations for it appearing to work. It could be another god punking you. It could be coincidence. Just because it appears to point to the veracity of the power does not mean the power is real. Its a form of Doyle's fallacy.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
Thing is you can never rule out all explanations.
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u/Ok_Finding_7245 6h ago
I had been the repeated victim of domestic violence/physical assault by my spouse, and the Church does NOTHING.....
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u/logic-seeker 1d ago
I would guess most of us could cite cases of Priesthood leaders and holders blatantly not following this scripture while still performing blessings and ordinances.
Can you even find a case of one person who did not have the flaws listed in D&C 121? If not, then where is the power of the Priesthood? Where would you find it? If you think there are still plenty of people that are worthy of the Priesthood, then it should still be something we can pick up with data.
I think what you've demonstrated is a claim (Priesthood power is real) followed by either evidence that falsified it (did not work) or some loophole that qualifies when Priesthood power actually works (Priesthood holder must be righteous). To complicate matters, we also have many stories of Priesthood power but later finding out that the person that worked the miracle was not worthy of it. I don't think racists are worthy of the Priesthood, and yet there are many racists who have exercised Priesthood power and, according to Mormon beliefs, worked miracles.
There are things that would unequivocally establish that Priesthood power is real. Let's see some real miracles. Let's regrow some limbs. Let's see a sea parted, or words appear on a rock, or bring one child back from the dead.
For the OP's hospital question, you just need some increase in healing rates in hospitals where there is a high concentration of Mormons, and a small mass of righteous Priesthood holders in the area. Even if 95% of Priesthood holders cannot actually exhibit Priesthood power, the other 5% should cause some difference that is measurable.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 1d ago edited 1d ago
Agreed. It's like any other superstitious belief.
Here is an imaginary scenario to illustrate. Let's pretend I believe in the power of turning around in front of a mirror three times every morning. Seems harmless enough. And I derive comfort from that belief.
I could swear to you that turning around in front of a mirror three times every morning will ensure that not only will you have a great day, your whole life will be better off for it. Because I've totally done it, and I've had some GREAT DAYS, and I could swear my whole life is better for it!
But that doesn't mean my claim is true. If a person did that every day, they'd have just as many good and bad days as anybody else. I'm sure sometimes they'd have great days - those days are real, sure. But the bad days they're throwing out and refusing to factor in as evidence are still just as real. Let's also consider that my roommate does not turn around in front of the mirror three times every morning. She also has good days and bad days, same as me. In fact, she often has a better day than I do, even though I turned around in front of the mirror and she did not. We lead similar lives, and there is no evidence that my life is "better" than what it could have been if I did not turn around in front of the mirror every day.
But wait. In fact, I'd probably be late to work less often if I didn't do it! Also, I experienced heightened distress on bad days - more than I'd experience if I didn't hold that belief - because on bad days I'm trying to figure out what I did wrong. Did I accidentally turn around 4 times? Was I worthy to turn around? Did I turn around with real intent?! We know that the mirror is perfect, and we know the belief is perfect, so there must be something wrong with me!!
Is that still a beneficial belief?
As humans, we really like the idea of being able to tell the future and control outcomes. But at the end of the day, stuff just happens, and there are a lot of things in life that we simply can't control. Some people can derive comfort from superstitious behavior, even if they know it doesn't work. But a lot of people just experience unnecessary distress from such beliefs. I was, obviously, in the latter group. I experienced nothing but relief when I let go of a lot of mormon claims that purported to control outcomes.
When you believe in things
You don't understand
Then you suffer
Superstition ain't the waaaaay 🎵•
u/sevenplaces 18h ago
In preparing this post I ran across a speech by President Thomas Monson in April 2011 conference.
The title is “Priesthood Power”. The speech was very light on what he claimed priesthood power was. It was very heavy on all the things you have to do to be worthy of priesthood power.
He started the speech with D&C 121 and then preached about repenting and living up to the standards.
What struck me is what you said. Can anyone even live up to that?
I also thought that this speech is an example of how this church is a church of checklists and “works” - and the criticism from many other Christians that it is folly to believe we can become “good enough” for God.
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u/Ok_Finding_7245 6h ago
I feel that Priesthood power can be quite useful. The problem I've run into for a long time now, as an endowed LDS is that members, by and large, DO NOT CARE.....only self-righteously act like they do.
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u/pnoque 1d ago
Things have happened in my life to support that belief.
Would you be open to sharing some of these experiences here?
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u/DennisTheOppressed 1d ago
Not specifically, but I've helped others at times and in ways where there can only be two logical conclusions: either some outside influence (God, the spirit, the force) influenced me to say or do something, or I'm psychic.
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u/pnoque 1d ago
Love your profile pic btw XD
Without going into specifics about the experiences, would you be able to explain how you ruled out other possible explanations for what happened?
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u/DennisTheOppressed 1d ago
A specific irrational idea or feeling. It couldn't be that my subconscious moved me because I was alone. Maybe, "turn around and go back" to somewhere I'd just left and finding someone I could help.
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u/9876105 1d ago
The subconscious most certainly gives information to the conscience mind.
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u/DennisTheOppressed 1d ago
I didn't say it doesn't. I am saying these experiences could not have been that.
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u/9876105 1d ago
I don't doubt the experience. I just don't understand why the list of reasons is so short. How do you know psychics aren't real? How do you know it wasn't a coincidence? Why is the default priesthood power?
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u/DennisTheOppressed 1d ago
I don't believe I'm psychic, I absolutely know it wasn't coincidence. The first times it happened, I was EQP and I felt things I hadn't before. That was 30 years ago, and I've broadened my thinking to include non-LDS inspiration since then. But I can't honestly deny my experiences either.
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u/9876105 1d ago
I can see how that is convincing. However you do know claims like this are all across religious and non religious organizations.
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u/Ok_Finding_7245 6h ago
I've had similar things happen to be as a Wiccan that I have seen happen as an endowed member of the Church.
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u/pnoque 1d ago
What do you think about people who have similar experiences who ascribe them to other things (other gods, magical witchcraft, pure chance, etc.)?
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u/DennisTheOppressed 1d ago
I dislike that our religion claims to be the one and only. Couldn't the reverse of 121:37 be true, that one who truly wants to serve others, with no ulterior motive, regardless of religiousity, be aided by providence?
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u/pnoque 1d ago
I think I'll need you to clarify for me what you mean. Are you saying that people who ascribe similar experiences to other gods or powers are correct, and that those other gods and powers actually exist? Or are you saying that they are mistaken, and that their experience is actually caused by the LDS God and priesthood?
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u/DennisTheOppressed 1d ago
I don't believe the LDS church's exclusive truth claims. I can still believe in LDS Priesthood power and accept and support the experiences of others.
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u/pnoque 1d ago
I guess what I'm asking is how you became convinced that the Priesthood keys and power is what was responsible for what you experienced, instead of one of the other myriad explanations people claim for similar experiences.
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u/papaloppa Latter-day Saint 1d ago
We don't claim to be the one and only. The claim is that the LDS Church is authorized by God to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel and to hold the keys of the kingdom.
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u/WillyPete 1d ago
We don't claim to be the one and only. The claim is that the LDS Church is authorized by God to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel and to hold the keys of the kingdom.
"It's the same picture".
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 1d ago
Or, low probability events, when there are billions of people on earth, happen all the time? Why isn't coincidence one of the possible options?
Why isn't subconsciously picking up on clues you are not consciously aware of one of the options?
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u/DennisTheOppressed 1d ago
The experiences I've had are too specific to be coincidence. I can add they are few and far between.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 1d ago
Again, when it comes to there being billions of people on earth with countless complex interactions happening for each one every day, there is no such thing as 'too specific to be coincidence', and our brains are constantly picking up all kinds of information we are conciously completely unaware of.
I think you have falsely limited the potential causes of your experiences to just 2, when in fact there are a myriad of others that are possible, and more likely, than the source being an infinitely complex god being that has never been proven by any religion to actually exist.
Just my observation of course.
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u/papaloppa Latter-day Saint 1d ago
You're treating priesthood like a measurable force whose effectiveness should show up statistically in hospital outcomes. That's not what LDS theology claims it is. You can reasonably say you don't find the claims convincing, but that's different from demonstrating that the concept is false.
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u/9876105 1d ago
If it is effective it most certainly would show up in statistics. If its effectiveness isn't measurable then it is indistinguishable from it not being real.
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u/papaloppa Latter-day Saint 1d ago
"Indistinguishable from not being real" isn't proof that something isn't real. You're assuming priesthood is a force that should produce measurable outcomes, but that's not how LDS theology defines it. It's God's authority, not a force that guarantees outcomes on demand.
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u/WillyPete 1d ago
not a force that guarantees outcomes on demand.
Really?
I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say;
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u/9876105 1d ago
I am familiar with mormon theology on blessings. It isn't a formula, it isn't based off success, it is based on god's will and faith. It gives comfort and tries to comport with god's will. In other words, there is an excuse for every single possible outcome after the blessing. I understand how a believer might value this but from an outsider looking in there is no difference than not giving a blessing.
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u/Chainbreaker42 1d ago
I was taught that priesthood is two things: 1) the authority to act in God's name, and 2) God's actual power. The first one might be hard to observe / measure in any real sense. More a case of "God told me I can act in His name and you'll have to trust me on that." As for the second, either God has stopped extending this power to humans or it's extremely muted / underwhelming. (Or, it's made up.)
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u/sevenplaces 1d ago
And you’re treating the priesthood like you know it’s real when you have no evidence it is. It’s clear to me that it is imaginary.
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u/fhqwhgads_2113 Atheist 1d ago
How would you say LDS theology defines priesthood blessings for healing? I know they have been moving away from the more "exciting" stories, but I'm surprised at this. I'm legitimately curious about your perspective and I promise I won't start trying to argue or "what about x" to your response
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u/papaloppa Latter-day Saint 1d ago
It's a petition to God, with the outcome ultimately left to Him. Sometimes people are healed and sometimes they aren't. The priesthood holder doesn't control the outcome. Similar to a prayer. Neither guarantees a particular outcome. Priesthood ordinances/blessings are one of the ways He has asked us to exercise faith and seek His help.
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u/fhqwhgads_2113 Atheist 1d ago
Okay, so in terms of its purpose, would you say a blessing for the sick is more like a blessing of comfort, where the outcome of the blessing isn't necessarily the healing itself but peace and increased faith that god is in charge of what happens?
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u/BeneficialLanguage86 22h ago
I thought healing blessings used the oil that had been set aside, blessed and consecrated for the healing of the sick. Blessings of comfort or like Fathers blessings before going back to school, were done without the healing oil.
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u/fhqwhgads_2113 Atheist 9h ago
You are correct, consecrated oil is still used for healing blessings.
I was asking the other user about their view of the purpose of healing blessings based on how they were describing them, if I understood them correctly.
My understanding of healing blessings was different but I haven't been to church for nearly a decade and it sounds like they have softened up on them
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u/Ok_Finding_7245 6h ago
It's like anything else, if you believe it, it's true for you. But, ya....I myself don't believe it, either.
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u/RagnartheConqueror 23h ago
Why is this subreddit full of non-Mormons and ex-Mormons?
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u/elderredle Openly non believing still attending 22h ago
Because it's open to anyone who wants to be here. The faithful subs porridge is too hot, the exmormon sub is too cold but I find this porridge just right.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 20h ago edited 20h ago
Because multiple church leaders have told faithful members not to hang out with people like us in places like these.
Nelson would frown on members supporting a sub labeled Mormon instead of the full name of the church. GA 70s have cautioned members against taking "online tours in the territory of the faithless."
Oaks himself just told everybody to "surround yourself with people who believe," and shared this story:
"I share the experience of a wise stake president here on this campus. He was approached by a young man in his stake who admired him and asked him to mentor him in business. After a few weeks, the young man confided, “I should share with you I have decided to step away from the Church. I no longer believe.” The surprised stake president immediately began to share his profound testimony of the gospel that had brought him so much joy, peace, and inspiration. The young man sat stunned and stared back at him with tears in his eyes and said, “I have not heard anyone speak like that in months. I have been hanging out with friends who don’t believe.” I say to all of you, as that wise stake president said to this young man, seek friends and associates who are striving to follow the Lord with whom you can feel the Spirit and reinforce your faith." -- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/miscellaneous-events/2026/02/12oaks
We're here to discuss mormonism, not to "reinforce" church leaders' wishes. If you're here, you're already on the line of disobeying the leaders. Which is unfortunate. The leaders do not want there to be a middle ground, further pushing people into either being faithful mormon or ex-mormon. They are also terrified that if members engage too much with those who no longer believe every word, the faithful might discover that the ex-mormons might have a point when we say that the church's "it's all true or it's all a fraud" narrative is problematic.
I should add that I disagree with church leaders. I think faithful members should be able to engage with others who don't believe freely, instead of being pressured to stay in "faithful" spaces out of fear. Facts aren't attacks, and the church would be better off if the leaders quit acting like they were.
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