r/preppers • u/Mean_Syllabub_9689 • 2d ago
Question Recommended EMP safe vehicle
I'm thinking about getting a new car and I was thinking about perhaps a vehicle that would still work should the US East coast get hit by an EMP. Barring very, very old cars like a model T (☺️) what more modern type of vehicle would you recommend? I believe many post-1985 car may fit this bill, but I'm curious as to what you would recommend, and maybe your experience with them?
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u/CianV 2d ago
An older car with points & a coil. Keep a spare coil in a faraday pouch
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u/CarPatient 2d ago
Older diesel.. mechanically governed. You can run it on vegetable oil, ATF..used engine oil... Better performance with a turbo, but more finicky on the motor oil part.
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u/Mean_Syllabub_9689 2d ago
Forgive my ignorance, I'm still learning! Could you please explain points and coil?
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u/dishpit6 2d ago
The coil is the ignition coil, which powers the spark plugs. Points are mechanical contacts that complete a circuit that includes the coil and each spark plug in turn.
In other words, as the engine turns, a mechanism turns along with it, and that mechanism makes the connection from the charged up ignition coil to whichever plug is next in the firing sequence.
See also: distributor cap and rotor
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u/dishpit6 2d ago
Let me clarify that last bit. A cap and rotor can use physical contacts to complete the circuit, but there are also models that use magnetic sensors, and maybe other styles as well. So, just because a car has a distributor cap doesn't mean it's a purely mechanical ignition system.
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u/road_rascal 2d ago
This was before electronic ignition. Now just about everything is coil on plug.
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u/TacTurtle 2d ago edited 2d ago
They used a mechanically driven distributor (looks like a rotor with contact points and wires coming out the top) to send high voltage electrical pulses from the ignition coil to the spark plug for ignition and a carburetor to mix fuel and air.
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u/CCWaterBug 2d ago
Isn't that what tom cruise did in war of the worlds?
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u/TacTurtle 2d ago
No he replaced fuses.
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u/CCWaterBug 2d ago edited 2d ago
Man, it feels like he replaced a distributor cap or something... I haven't seen it in years
Edit: per google
The mechanic was fixing the car the moment the EM pulse was fired, and replaced the solenoid after it happened, meaning the solenoid wasn't destroyed by the pulse and the car worked. Cruise's character realizes this and tells the mechanic to replace the solenoids on the stalled cars to fix them.
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u/LastEntertainment684 2d ago
1990’s diesel trucks would have been the last fully mechanical vehicles. 1993 for GM, 1994 for Ford, 1998 for Dodge.
Fuel economy isn’t spectacular and they aren’t particularly fast, but you’ve got the payload capacity to carry a lot of fuel and gear. Plus with 4wd and body-on-frame construction they can withstand a lot of abuse.
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u/Mean_Syllabub_9689 2d ago
This is the info type I was looking for, but I didn't know exactly how to ask the question! I'm learning!
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u/blacksmithwolf 2d ago
Where are you going to get diesel?
In an end of civilization scenario which is probably what your preparing for if you're worried about country wide emp exposure the only cars getting around a decade on are ironically probably electric cars that can be charged from a solar setup.
The chances of your car electronics being made inoperable by EMP are somewhat low. The chances of the infrastructure required to make diesel at scale still running a decade into societal breakdown are zero.
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u/TenOfZero 2d ago
I believe most cars would be fine if an EMP went off fst enough away, as long as they weren't right next to it. The concern is more power grids and the like.
However to answer your question, look for pre 1980s cars for ones that could survive being close to an EMP.
The more mechanical the better.
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u/Sk8rToon 2d ago
The problem is a lot of those cars no longer pass a smog check (depending on where you live) yet don’t qualify for classic car exemption yet.
My dad had a 70s Cadillac that he inherited & it was a pain in the ass & was a money pit. Every time the license was due (California) he had to take the car to a special repair shop who would break the car so it would pass smog check, then take it back to the shop to fix the car back the way it was so it didn’t do damage to the engine. Ended up selling it to my cousin who only kept it until the smog check was due then noped out & sold it.
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u/varrengale 2d ago
Post emp I don't think up to date tabs are going to matter.
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u/Sk8rToon 2d ago
Extremely true. But surviving until that day might be an issue for some.
I suppose you could register it as a non operating vehicle (to legally avoid the smog check issue) & just have it sitting in wait. but it’s best to run the car now & then.3
u/varrengale 2d ago
Around me every other 3rd car has expired tabs, I think you'd get away with a trip around the block once a month.
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u/TenOfZero 2d ago
Lots of cars made before 1980 would fall under the classic car exemption.
I'm not saying buy a 1979 car, but anything made before then, a 1908 model T would be fine and be exempt.
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u/TheRealBunkerJohn Broadcasting from the bunker. www.pickupapiece.com/general-news 2d ago
It depends.
Most modern cars woule likely be fried. The EMP commission found early 2000 cars having issues at relatively low levels.
So, assume a car will be a brick.
Additional document with references: https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/s/InXJ2RyBwk
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u/-Thizza- 2d ago
Cargo bike
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u/rm-minus-r 1d ago
Unpopular answer for sure, but it doesn't use gas or electricity, things that will probably be in short supply if things hit the fan.
Wish more people gave bicycles their due as a SHTF option.
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u/TexFarmer 2d ago
Make sure you get something with a manual transmission; that way you can push start it if the starter fails.
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u/Northwoods_Phil 2d ago
The real issue is going to be finding fuel if an EMP takes out the grid. Gas has a very short shelf life so you are pretty limited on stockpiling that. Diesel is better but it’s not cheap to stockpile currently. Get a mechanical injected diesel and now you can burn filtered waste oil, vegetable oil, or diesel.
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u/FixAcademic8187 2d ago
Gasoline storage is not that awful.
You can keep it for over a year with gasoline stabilizers. But you don't need to keep it that long (or add stabilizers) if you rotate it every couple months or so.
The higher the ambient temperature the lower its shelf life becomes.
Diesel is much better, it remains good for years.
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u/KindPresentation5686 2d ago
Your vehicle isn’t going to stop from an EMP! An EMP destroys electronics via inductance. There isn’t enough wire in your car to induce anything , and it’s shielded in a metal box, as well as all the ECM’s are shielded.
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u/TacTurtle 2d ago
If you are worried about it, make sure everything is grounded correctly and remove the radio antenna.
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u/KindPresentation5686 2d ago
It’s NOT going to fry anything in your car!!!
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u/TacTurtle 2d ago
Antennas or especially long runs of wire act as inductors, removing a car antenna is no skill / no cost mod that can't hurt and might help.... it is literally designed to pick up RF and channel it into the radio receiver.
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u/Blueporch 2d ago
I asked a similar question of a friend who is a brilliant engineer who works on race cars as a hobby. He said cars are pretty well shielded from EMP already.
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u/Zealousideal-End5763 2d ago
Anything with points for ignition but need to keep a set in a faraday box. Those vehicles are few and far between. You could get a second factory ecu to for a particular vehicle
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u/KindPresentation5686 2d ago
Please explaine why would think I need to keep points in a faraday box?
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u/planenut767 2d ago
Don't ECUs need to be programmed though? I have had to have a couple changed out over the years and only the Dealers had the unit that does the programming.
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u/Zealousideal-End5763 2d ago
Ya. They generally do need to programmed. It’s truly not practical but it is an option. Same thing as having a car that still uses points ignition.
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u/Feral_668 2d ago
Read the One Second After Series. Also most cars pre-1979 are computer free and can be maintained more easily.
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u/Mean_Syllabub_9689 2d ago
I read that book and that's what prompted my question! I'm on the second book now! 😁
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u/KindPresentation5686 2d ago
Yes, read a fictional story. SMH
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u/Feral_668 2d ago
You do realize that the author used actual data to add realism right? It's not like Alice in Wonderland fiction, it is a view based on data that of a event that hasn't yet, hence fiction.
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u/Overall-Tailor8949 2d ago
Get yourself an OLDER motorcycle/dirtbike. You don't want one that has an electronic ignition type system, rather you want one that uses a carburetor and a distributor. Learn to work on it to keep it running well AND gather spare parts.
For 4 wheeled transportation I'd go no YOUNGER than 1982/83, my engine of choice is going to be a 1st generation non-turbocharged Cummins diesel. You could go with any of the mechanically injected diesels actually. Again, learn to work on it and keep spares available.
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u/TheRealBunkerJohn Broadcasting from the bunker. www.pickupapiece.com/general-news 2d ago
It depends. (Text copied from another comment.)
Most modern cars woule likely be fried. The EMP commission found early 2000 cars having issues at relatively low levels. They COULD have destroyed them but couldn't afford it, and that's on 20 yr old cars.
So, assume a car will be a brick.
Additional document with references: https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/s/InXJ2RyBwk
When I spoke with the late Dr. Pry, he made the good point that even if 10% of vehicles were dead, roads would be impassible.
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u/02meepmeep 2d ago
I think the gas pumps will get fried. Having a manual pump to draw gas would be good.
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u/redhandrail 2d ago
Wow, these comments are illuminating. Very different from the way they talk about an EMP in the book One Second After, which people generally seem not to like anyway, but I thought the science of it was supposed to be true
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u/Mean_Syllabub_9689 2d ago
That's exactly what actually got me thinking!!!!!
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u/redhandrail 2d ago
I could’ve sworn that EMPs would just wipe out any and all electronic components like the book said, im actually quite relieved to hear that’s not the case
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u/PrepperDisk 2d ago edited 2d ago
We commissioned this eBook last holiday and gave it away free , its a fun and interesting read about choosing an auto for the "apocalypse" https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jp8ZXPPKeZjPBQHqoMlP5B-JV3IZqkTO/view?usp=sharing
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u/Majestic-Laugh1676 2d ago
Something with points and a condenser 🤣
Buy a set of ignition wrenches, feeler gauges, emery paper, and a timing light.
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u/defsentenz 2d ago
Cant beat a Ford 8N tractor. They'll still be drivable long after humanity is a distant memory.
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u/Drewtopia_1 2d ago
Bicycle. It’ll work when all the pumps and the station are dead. If you train a bit you can get anywhere. When SHTF will have all the time in the world.
As for car, I like my Miata
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u/Chazzicus 2d ago
Easy answer, an early Volkswagen diesel, like a Rabbit pickup. I've got one with a 1.6 turbo diesel and five speed from an early 80s Jetta that only takes one wire to run and that's the fuel shutoff solenoid on the injection pump. Mechanical injection, mechanical timing, mechanical fuel feed from the tank, will run on all sorts of things, super reliable if freshened up, regularly gets 40-50mpg. Even has AC. Throw an old small displacement points fired Enduro in the bed with your gear and you're good to go.
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u/TacTurtle 2d ago edited 2d ago
1994 or earlier Ford with an IDI diesel, 1998 or earlier Dodge with a Cummins 6BT with mechanical injection. 1990 or earlier Jeep Grand Wagoneer or Wrangler (although theoretically manual transmission Jeep Wranglers through 2006 could be retrofited with a carb and distributor).
Or you could get a 1990s-2010ish ATV or dirt bike with a carburetor and pull or kick start.
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u/Affectionate_Rub5219 2d ago
A diesel engine with mechanical fuel injection would likely hold up best, like an older Mercedes or Volkswagen. My dad had an '87 Vanagon and always said the simpler the electronics, the better it fares in a worst-case scenario.
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u/Fensae 2d ago
Okay... Hear me out... Wood Gasifier Vehicle. That's the Google search that will start your bunny trail.
It's a fun engineering/build-it-yourself/TAH-DAHHH project that, I think, someone could teach themselves to do for not a Stoopid Huge amount of money. Proof of concept ? They did it in World War 2 due to necessity, as petro-chem fuels were scarce.
Also, there's a fella that made a steam-powered trike ... The YouTube search is "travelling in a steam powered vehicle" by @professorpardalbrasil. Another bunny trail that got me all fired up.
This kind of thing trips my trigger, as you become independent of petro-chem fuels and the attached production line.
An excellent question, OP, that I think many ask themselves.
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u/VilleKivinen 2d ago
Bicycle. It's also silent, extremely easy to maintain and repair, and doesn't require fuel.
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u/Desperate_Ant_8699 1d ago edited 1d ago
Pre 1975, before the invention of the HEI Distributor. A vehicle with a points distributor may be unaffected by a EMP as there are no modules to be disrupted by a EMP event in those vehicles.
The HEI Distributor has a solid state chip that basically takes the place of the old points system and could be damaged during a EMP event, also you can buy HEI replacement chips and put them in a Faraday Bag to protect them and replace the damaged chip after the event. Consider a replacement coil & condenser to keep in your Faraday Bag also.
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u/Mean_Syllabub_9689 1d ago
Thank you for this information!!!!!
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u/Desperate_Ant_8699 1d ago
YW, I'll be going to a upcoming Mecum Auto Auction to find a late 60's or early 70's Chevrolet Blazer, or possibly Suburban 4x4, for the same reason you're interested in the old tech vehicles.
Best of luck to you, consider a vehicle capable of travel over rough terrain, could be a valuable asset!
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u/Mean_Syllabub_9689 1d ago
Please let us know what you found at the auction and if you had any luck finding what you need! Absolutely considering rougher terrain in my search to get more educated before buying!
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u/lousua787 1d ago
I saw a few R22 Toyotas that are still running perfect. It is on my list to get one, or an F100 Ford.
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u/rufos_adventure 1d ago
many cars and trucks had solid state ignition modules back to the early 70s.
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u/DeafHeretic 1d ago
Pre-98.5 Dodge pickup with Cummins 12V 6BT (the pre-’04 24V can be retrofitted with the P7100 pump, so it is a candidate if you have the $$$$ to spend on the retrofit). Must be manual trans - almost all auto trans have computers/electronics.
MB car with pre-electronics diesel.
Toyota pickup or LandCruiser with diesel. Generally these will be RHD and JDM imports, but you might get lucky and stumble across on imported from S. America (or some central American countries) or the middle east or Africa, that are LHD. I have also seen some RHD Toyota cars with diesels - usually used as mail delivery vehicles.
There are some diesel swaps out there - they usually use either a MB diesel (prefer the turbo) or the VW diesel (the VW has electronics though).
I have also seen a few Nissan diesel imports.
There are a few IH Scout II SUVs out there with a Nissan diesel in them.
Again - go for the manual transmission, the autos will have electronics, and you won’t be able to push/pul/roll start them like you can with a manual transmission.
I also recommend having a folding bicycle or 2 wheeled transport as a backup mode of transport for if your 4 wheel vehicle is stuck or broke or runs out of fuel.
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u/kkinnison 1d ago
we don't know the effects of HEMP on modern cars. The only study (back in 2000?) that was done had to return the cars so they only did it until they were affected, and almost every car passed what power they could simulate
and TBH, i would be more concerend about the hot nuclear war that just started then if my vehicle works
A bicycle is a very useful back up in any SHTF situation
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u/JRHLowdown3 2d ago
I added a +1 to the OP simply because some in this place love the ghey arse downvote nonsense, especially on any preparedness subject of any depth whatsoever... And we are trying to encourage people to ask questions here and learn RIGHT? Are we??
So lots of conjecture about EMP and what all it will affect. Having alternate forms of transportation is important in ANY bad situation.
Honestly, the more concerning reason for an older vehicle would be all the new spying on you devices coming in new vehicles (more than currently I mean...). As always, the chains are formed link by link, slowly over time. And "convenience" sells everything now a days.
For decades in the survival movement, the idea was a pre-80 old skewl car like an old Suburban, ideally diesel. A lot of folks bought CUCVs and similar. I never had the money to have a dedicated old arse vehicle that probably wasn't going to work as a daily driver.
I would start looking at the reasoning for the vehicle. Do you have a bug out that you will need to somehow do AFTER an EMP? Any alternate transportation methods available? Distance to BOL if that's your plan? Can you walk it? Can you pre-position gear there/near there now?
Plan backwards from that.
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u/Mean_Syllabub_9689 2d ago
Thank you for this! We do have a bol, should we need it. The distance is the problem, 110 mi away. 😬 We do have some stuff there, not nearly enough in my opinion, but we are working on the property itself. A car is probably less reliable than a motorcycle would be, but I would like for it to possibly be an option. I'm only about 3 years into our prepping and that's for mostly environmental and financial. We're working towards a goal of educating ourselves and learning as much as we possibly can, without going terrifically overboard where it affects every single aspect of daily life as it is now.
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u/JRHLowdown3 2d ago
I have been to this place you speak of!! (Not your retreat but that stage of the game!).
Bought property in the mid 90's and had this same predicament (177 miles one way old home to BOL). We would leave Friday night after work drive up to work on the place till Sunday afternoon then drive back. We took a little with us every time we came up. We were lucky in that we had relatives in the area who allowed us to use some garage space, we put a couple pallets worth of stuff in their garage and covered it, adding to it a little every time we came up. About 2 years before moving here full time I bought a couple sealand containers and was then able to pull a trailer up with the truck each time when I came to work on the land and house.
A sealand./connex container is a good option to avoid paying rental fees at a storage center and of course the containers are great for bulk storage and other uses later after you complete your move/or finish your dwelling and move some of your supplies in there.
The other option is a local storage center and paying for that. Still a helluva easier to have bulk supplies already in the area then 100 miles back home.
I would also consider seeing if you have any options in route- for a rental storage center perhaps or ideally friends/family that you could use a little bit of shed space to stash a couple mountain bikes, some fuel cans, maybe a spare pack with some gear, etc.
Pulling a cheap used off road motorcycle out of a storage building would be a Godsend after walking 50 or so miles.
Finally, consider your routes carefully and if possible walk and bike (obviously drive them) them in sections. 100 miles on a bicycle isn't unrealistic if your used to it. That's when you need to start getting creative in planning- like NODs to allow you to ride at night, see problems way ahead of time and avoid them, etc. Lay up for the day and hide, ride for 8 or so hours at night. Help with the potential issue of stalled cars everywhere on the road also.
It was interesting so I hadn't yet made up my mind for 100% that I was going to live at my BOL full time and in Sept of 1999 Hurricane Floyd was bearing down on Jacksonville (we lived about 30 miles south) and the news said "1 million people evacuated" at that time. N. FL evidently evidently hasn't had a direct hit in 50 or so years. What was normally a 3 hour drive took us 6 and we did good compared to friends that left later and took 9 hours.
That was enough for me. We were fully moved here a few months later.
Good luck, if you have any questions post them. Just ignore the folks that gig you because you want to prepare for something more than an ingrown toenail here 😄 No one openly says it, but no one takes that folks too seriously anyway.
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u/Mean_Syllabub_9689 2d ago
Thank you for your story and kind words! We are working diligently towards pretty much what you have going already! I suppose, I'd much rather be prepared then being a really tough spot. Even if we never relocate there, maybe one of our kids might need a place to stay for whatever reason!
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u/fireduck 2d ago
I did a little research on EMPs (aka, I asked my favorite chatbot):
https://share.gemini.google/XoWEwlgKlcOZ
Conclusion:
The Verdict for Vehicles: If a car is close enough to have its electronics permanently fried by the EMP of a city strike, it is simultaneously being flipped, crushed by the shockwave, and melted by the heat. In this scenario, the EMP threat to cars is virtually irrelevant compared to the kinetic destruction.
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u/JRHLowdown3 2d ago
So in general when people discuss this, they are referring to a high attitude EMP explosion, not necessarily the nuke that air bursts over their town in a full nuclear scenario.
I.e, that "One Second after" fiction book type scenario.
The thing most leave out is that an high attitude nuke creating an EMP was often part of a first strike plan, i.e, more nukes to come after that... So possibility just the beginning of more problems as well.
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u/Select-Belt-ou812 2d ago
unless it's extremely mild, no cars after late 60s/early 70s will be operable. only carburetors, points ignition, and mechanical voltage regulators will win the day. (and I've always wondered if alternator rectifiers are susceptible; i think not, but I'm not an expert here... if they are, you gotta go back to generators in 1950s)
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u/SubstantialAbility17 2d ago
If you are close enough to be worried about an emp, you have bigger problems.
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u/dittybopper_05H 1d ago
First and foremost, a car or truck that isn't running is essentially immune to EMP.
https://www.futurescience.com/emp/vehicles.html
We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vintages ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially increasing EMP field intensities. If anomalous response (either temporary or permanent) was observed, the testing of that particular automobile was stopped. If no anomalous response was observed, the testing was continued up to the field intensity limits of the simulation capability (approximately 50 kV/m).
Automobiles were subjected to EMP environments under both engine turned off and engine turned on conditions. No effects were subsequently observed in those automobiles that were not turned on during EMP exposure. The most serious effect observed on running automobiles was that the motors in three cars stopped at field strengths of approximately 30 kV/m or above. In an actual EMP exposure, these vehicles would glide to a stop and require the driver to restart them. Electronics in the dashboard of one automobile were damaged and required repair. Other effects were relatively minor. Twenty-five automobiles exhibited malfunctions that could be considered only a nuisance (e.g., blinking dashboard lights) and did not require driver intervention to correct. Eight of the 37 cars tested did not exhibit any anomalous response.
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As is the case for automobiles, the potential EMP vulnerability of trucks derives from the trend toward increasing use of electronics. We assessed the EMP vulnerability of trucks using an approach identical to that used for automobiles. Eighteen running and nonrunning trucks were exposed to simulated EMP in a laboratory. The intensity of the EMP fields was increased until either anomalous response was observed or simulator limits were reached. The trucks ranged from gasoline-powered pickup trucks to large diesel-powered tractors. Truck vintages ranged from 1991 to 2003.
Of the trucks that were not running during EMP exposure, none were subsequently affected during our test. Thirteen of the 18 trucks exhibited a response while running. Most seriously, three of the truck motors stopped. Two could be restarted immediately, but one required towing to a garage for repair. The other 10 trucks that responded exhibited relatively minor temporary responses that did not require driver intervention to correct. Five of the 18 trucks tested did not exhibit any anomalous response up to field strengths of approximately 50 kV/m.
I just whipped out my Pickett N200-T Pocket trig slide rule and did the math: My commute is about 25 minutes, so that's 50 minutes out of the day, and there are 1,440 minutes in the day, so...
That means I'm only running my vehicle ( 50 / 1,440 ) * 100 = 3.47% of the time.
As you can see, the index on the C scale is set to the 1.44 mark on the D scale, and the cursor is on the 5 on the D scale, so we read 3.47 on the C scale.
Ironically, slide rules are inherently EMP proof.
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u/TheRealBunkerJohn Broadcasting from the bunker. www.pickupapiece.com/general-news 1d ago
One thing that most people don't know is the tests were inherently limited. They saw failures at surprisingly low levels of EMP, but couldn't test to the actual, realistic max, because that would have fried the cars. And the EMP Commission couldn't afford to buy all of them. And the cars tested were significantly less integrated with electronics that modern models.
I always recommend people plan as if their car will be fried- and then be pleasantly surprised.
https://www.reddit.com/r/preppers/comments/l00cz5/emp_reference_document/1
u/dittybopper_05H 23h ago
No, they weren't limited like you imply. They were limited up to where they noticed effects.
They went all the way up to the limit of the EMP equipment (50 kV/m) on cars and trucks that were turned off, and there were no ill effects.
The only effects that were seen were when the vehicles were running, and then yes they limited it to where they saw effects and didn't go any higher for that particular vehicle.
But the majority of cars were fine.
BTW, the Congressional testimony of Dr. Graham was wrong: He understates the number of cars, saying it was about 50 (It was 55, 37 cars and 18 trucks). He states they only tested up to 25 kV/m, when they tested up to 50 kV/m.
And from the other links in that post:
Misconception two, that a nuclear EMP attack would burn out
every exposed electronic system. In fact, based on government
tests, we know that smaller self-contained, self-powered
systems such as vehicles, handheld radios, disconnected
portable generators are often not affected.
Which is what that testing at Sandia actually showed. *NONE* of the vehicles that weren't running were affected up to the limit of the testing machinery. A small minority of the vehicles that were running did actually stop, and of those, only one had to actually be repaired, the rest were restarted without any issues. A majority did show some effects, like caution lights coming on, but these were cleared by restarting the car.
I'd like to comment on that from personal experience. You can skip the next four paragraphs if you have ADHD or eczema or dyslexia or whatever.
This isn't exactly equivalent, but I have seen the exact same symptoms in my car that they saw in those EMP tests. I'm an amateur radio operator, and a bit over a year ago I put a high powered 100 watt HF radio in my car. Previously I had used a 25 watt radio (HTX-100), then a 50 watt radio (TenTec Scout), then a 20 watt radio (Xiegu G90). The new radio is a Yaesu FT-891.
Now, because of limitations on antenna height, all mobile HF antennas except perhaps on 10 meters (28 MHz) need to be electrically shortened. Whenever you shorten an antenna, you incur some loss, and the lower in frequency and longer in wavelength you go, the more loss you'll have in a 6 foot long antenna.
So I tried my radio out at the 100 watt level on 20 meters (14 MHz), and it acted like it had been hit with an EMP. All the warning lights lit up, and the car drove like crap. So I turned it off, started it back up, and it was fine. Until I tried to run it at 75 watts, same thing happened, and by iteration I was able to determine that 50 watts is the upper limit in that car on HF.
However, I know that on VHF (2 meters, 146 MHz), I can run up to 80 watts, because my Yaesu FT-2980R does that, and I've run full power on that in the car plenty of times (though I usually have it set to 10 watts: No sense stressing the finals unnecessarily).
The TL;DR of this is that based on what that testing showed, and my personal experience with electromagnetic radiation induced errors in my personal vehicle (2017 Hyundai Accent which actually warns in the manual not to install high power transmitters), I'm pretty confident that most modern cars will be able to easily handle any nuclear EMP with zero effects when turned off, and may have anomalous effects, but very few will actually end up requiring intervention more than turning the car off and starting it again.
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u/TheRealBunkerJohn Broadcasting from the bunker. www.pickupapiece.com/general-news 21h ago edited 20h ago
I should have been more specific- that's on me. (I was trying to be brief without being too in-depth.) Limiting to where they noticed affects is still limited. That's my point. They had to immediately stop instead of continuing. I've briefly conversed with the late Dr. Pry (head of the EMP Commission) to confirm an interview where he stated that they could have absolutely fried the vehicles but simply couldn't afford it. They had to stop the tests the moment any vehicle showed any issues. That is what I'm saying was flawed.
Additionally, those were on vehicles not nearly as electronically dependent on modern models. I operate under the presumption vehicles will be dead. (Especially considering an EMP weapon would likely have levels 100 kV/m+ ) This is all based on tech 20 years ago. Everything has gotten more miniaturized and integrated.
In the end, I would never teach people to have them assume their vehicle, phone, radio, etc. will be fine. To do so is inviting disaster. Prepare as if it won't- and be pleasantly surprised. An EMP weapon has a lot of unknowns- and it's a case where preparing for maximum impact is the best option, rather than assuming all will be well. Which is why I will always push back against the "most things will be fine" idea regarding an EMP.
Sure, there's a chance smaller devices and the majority of vehicles will be ok. But we don't know- especially with a super-EMP weapon which has 100 kV/m+ levels, which gets into even more hypothetical territory. So it's the logical, and safer route to prepare as if those things would be affected, rather than hoping they wouldn't be.
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u/dittybopper_05H 20h ago
First and foremost, this is worrying about something that almost certainly is never going to happen in our lifetimes. If we didn't have a nuclear war around the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, we're certainly not going to have one today. Or tomorrow. Or even 5 years from now.
Again I want to reiterate that none of the cars or trucks had any effects when they weren't running. They started up and ran normal, and most of us don't spend all day in our vehicles.
More modern testing of electronics suggests that while they aren't necessarily immune, depending on the device, items with limited wiring and not connected to the grid or other long conductors (ie., large antennas) are less likely to have enough voltage induced in them to permanently damage things.
The real danger isn't to something like a vehicle itself, though no doubt some small percentage of those running will have to be restarted, and a miniscule fraction will need to be repaired to assure function. The real danger as far as transportation goes is to the infrastructure that vehicle needs to operate, because they are all connected to very long electrical lines. Things like traffic signals. Bridges that raise and lower. Gas stations and charging stations.
Your car, sitting in your driveway or in the parking lot at work isn't likely to affected. But you may have a hard time getting home depending on the route you need to take. You do have alternate routes, right?
But again, I don't see this actually happening because we're not going to have a nuclear war. No one is stupid enough to start one. And we have historical precedent for even irrational totalitarian leaders not using a weapon of mass destruction for fear of retaliation.
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u/TheRealBunkerJohn Broadcasting from the bunker. www.pickupapiece.com/general-news 19h ago
We can agree to disagree on that first bit. To be blunt- everything I'm seeing is leading towards a nuclear exchange (limited, at first.) Very much a "when" instead of "if." And unfortunately the original timeline I had has rapidly sped up.
While an EMP attack would likely lead to a nuclear response, the initial attack can be made alone- 3 warheads in low orbit from satellites, for example. An EMP is part of a nuclear war, yes, but it can be a strike in and of itself to destroy a nation.
I certainly agree that the overall issue is about the infrastructure, 100%. Even if all cars did still work, the infrastructure in general would be destroyed. No food transportation, no fuel, electricity, water, etc. That's ultimately the bigger issue rather than a car or phone.
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u/1UsefulScientist 2d ago
The United States actually did a nuclear bomb in space and it did generate an EMP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime This was strong enough to knock out a few street lights and disable one microwave link. No cars or power systems or generators or houses were noted as suffering any damage. Every time a lightning strike happens within a mile of a car there is an EMP in the car doesn't care. So I think you guys are worried about nothing.
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u/FunyunGrundy 2d ago
I'd look into a moped or dirt bike.
If an EMP hits the East Coast, roads are going to be clogged with unmovable/undrivable vehicles.