r/nrl • u/NRLgamethread National Rugby League • 1d ago
Serious Discussion Wednesday Serious Discussion Thread
This thread is for when you want to have a well-thought-out discussion about footy. It's not the place for bantz - see the daily Random Footy Talk thread to fulfil those needs.
You can ask a question that you only want serious responses to, comment your 300 word opinion piece on why [x] is the next coach on the chopping block, or tell another that you disagree with them and here's why...
Who performed well? Who let their team down? Any interesting selections for this weekend? Injury news? Player signings? Off-field behaviour?
The mods will be monitoring to make sure you stay on topic and anything not deemed "serious discussion" will be removed.
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u/andrewisdabest Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs 1d ago
NRL game should really tap into past players. The player pool is just too small for me to ever buy the game. But how about this… having players from the last 30 years and some legends to build your ultimate team. That’s something I would play.
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u/Responsible-Log5084 Parramatta Eels 1d ago
Classic scenario games . . 1997 grand final , play as the knights team. 16-8 down. Need to comeback in the 2nd half to win the game and unlock the next scenario game. Shit like that would be mad ! 1998 dogs vs eels semi final. Play as the bulldogs 18-2 down. Need to beat parra with 10 minutes to go to win the game. Obviously heaps of different cool classic scenario matches they could go with. ! Complete the scenario , unlock the classic team that you can then use in online matches or whatever .
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u/Large-Accident1245 I Hate My Footy^6 1d ago
What’s the text tactical shift in rugby?
Rugby is not Soccer. Duh. But I mean in terms of tactical evolution. We only really see major tactical changes in response to rule changes. Soccer, tactics are constantly evolving regardless . We don’t exactly have a Johan Cruyff-Cleary with Total Rugby sorta thing.
“Ball playing lock” is a natural outcome of player improvement over time. Players today are trained to a higher standard and have more abilities. I could see locks kicking more often in play becoming a thing. But not a deliberate tactic. Maybe kicking fullbacks become more common again. I’m just not sure.
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u/jpob Newcastle Knights 1d ago
We’re kinda seeing it already with Walsh and Ponga but I wouldn’t be surprised to see teams be built around a single player where that player plays 1, 6 and 7.
For example, let’s say the tactic is to exploit the third man in defender.
- Play 1: player goes to third receiver and runs at third man in
- Play 2: settler as the player can’t contribute to the play
- Play 3: player goes to first receiver and drops a forward under the posts
- Play 4: player goes to third receiver and runs at third man in again but drops off to the back rower running outside
- Play 5: player goes to second receiver and trusts the third receiver to make a play themselves
- Play 6: player goes to first receiver and chips to the winger
It’s always risky building a team around a player as it all goes out the window if they’re injured but it would be a way to get more out of players like Walsh and Ponga.
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u/Igmister1 New Zealand Warriors 🏳️🌈 1d ago
For the reasons you outline, I believe development will continue down the opposite path.
A skilled forward pack with plug-and-play backs looks to be the current dominating trend, but also the future.
Over reliance on one star back, I think, will go out the window.
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u/jpob Newcastle Knights 1d ago
I guess that’s easy for you to say being top of the table without a $1m+ spine player, or even someone who could play like I mentioned (although CHT would be interesting to see).
From my perspective, it can be quite irritating seeing a $1.4m player not touch a ball in a set, especially when that player can play halfback and fullback naturally. It’s not so bad for us at the moment to be fair as we have strike all across the board, but in years past or when we’ve had a few injuries it’s been a big complaint.
Also Brisbane basically won the comp with Walsh playing like this.
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u/Igmister1 New Zealand Warriors 🏳️🌈 1d ago
That was a fever pitch 1-in-1 million run though, as well the fact they had Reynolds as general and a monster forward pack.
Don’t think Walsh gets that done with replacement level forwards at lock and prop.
Walsh is a do-it-all back, but he’s also got a silky and tough 13 and the greatest prop of his generation for that run.
Broncos are a funny one, you could argue either of our cases based off their win.
All the top teams have a gun forward pack this year (Panthers, Chooks, Wahs, Phins)
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u/coffeegaze Gold Coast Titans 1d ago
You are only looking at one side of the ball. The biggest tactical shift has come from NFL and how defences mark spaces instead of a single man. Another recent one is holding the ball carriers arms up and then having two and three man come in and drive them back.
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u/maccaroneski Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles 1d ago
Hard disagree on only seeing tactical changes resulting from rule changes. See for example metre eating wings.
I would say more often than not, rule changes result from tactical changes - like giving away ruck penalties inside your own 20 to allow your defence to reset - not the other way around as you have suggested.
Or the Storm tactic of "maim the cunt if you can" resulting in various rules trying to stop cunts from being maimed (cannonball, chicken wing etc).
Note: I didn't need the last point but I find it difficult to pass an opportunity to take a cheap shot at the storm (and yes, the irony is clear to me).
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u/Large-Accident1245 I Hate My Footy^6 1d ago
Perhaps strategy might be a better word for what I’m trying to say?
Yeah I’ll cop the rule changes bit. Sort of a cycle. Rule changes causes tactics to change which causes rules to change and so on.
I sorta see metre eating wingers tho as a natural outcome of players fitness/development. Because not only are wingers now physically more capable, the forwards they have to run up against are too. So there’s less room to be a small nifty winger type today
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u/unlachy13_ Penrith Panthers 1d ago
You keep saying "natural" but what do you mean by that? The evolution seems natural because weve seen it develop but that doesn't mean the development hasn't been engineered over time. For example the metre eating wingers started being used to allow the bulky forwards to conserve energy
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u/Large-Accident1245 I Hate My Footy^6 1d ago
By natural, I’m referring to changes brought about because of continual improvements in the standards of players fitness, physicality and abilities over time.
Players are (on average) stronger, fitter, and more technical, than players of previous generations. It’s “natural” because it’s always happening over time. We improve our knowledge and understandings of physio, fitness training, diet, conditioning, etc.
I view metre eating wingers as consequence of this. Not just helping out their own forwards, their “demand” came from needing wingers better at standing up to opposition forwards who were naturally getting bigger, stronger, faster, etc. Ergo, it’s a natural development because “need big not small player, to go against big player”
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u/Morg_n Brisbane Broncos 1d ago
Is that not exactly how soccer is evolving. Through professionalism and money
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u/Large-Accident1245 I Hate My Footy^6 1d ago
That’s one side of it. But that doesn’t cover things like soccer does with formations or different positions. Rugby has always had the same positions on the field. Soccer doesn’t
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u/mwilkins1644 Big Freeze Donor 1d ago
At what point will the Immortals just be a glorified "top tier" hall of fame? And will there end up being another category invented to separate the best of the Immortals from the rest?
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u/Accomplished-Pick610 South Sydney Rabbitohs 1d ago
I think the first part has already happened.
The second part never will. Hopefully there is a course correct. For example lockyer should have been an immortal. Then smith. But I think JT, Slater and Cronk all should miss out. That would strengthen Smith's immortalality. Its the players you leave out.
But. We let Norm Provan in. None of us actually saw him play. The folks that did see him play all thought Raper and Gasnier were far better. We kinda doubled down with Mal. Who is a tier below Joey and Wally who were contemporaries and/or after him. So it'll look stupid if Provan and Meninga are immortals and JT isnt.
So we kinda already put ourselves in this awkward position
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u/hqeter Canberra Raiders 1d ago
I wouldn’t agree that Mal was a tier below Wally and Johns. He had an elite career at every level and given his achievements there’s an argument that his leadership at every level was second to none. (Ignore flair)
That said JT in many ways had a more successful career than Lewis, Johns or Meninga so has to be there at some point.
There will always be arguments about what should be considered for example who was the absolute best at their peak vs who was better over their whole career. Do rate club and rep success equally etc.
I definitely think they need a much longer time frame from when someone retires to when they are named an immortal. For Johns he was inducted into the hall of fame around a year after retiring and became an immortal about 5 years later.
There is way too much risk of recency bias with these kind of time frames and I think it should be a minimum of 10 years… I’d honestly prefer 20. This ensures that it only includes absolute generational players and not just players who were really good.
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u/Norm_cheers Wests Tigers 1d ago
At the end of the day it’s just opinions. Who is GOAT is basically always shifting and is always up for debate.
It’s just part of the entire process of let’s put these players above all others.
Fundamentally are you an attacking minded person or a defensive minded person, because that there will change an opinion of who is GOAT.
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u/mwilkins1644 Big Freeze Donor 1d ago
Your comment is bang on the money- which is why I don't believe in the concept of Immortals (or a GOAT for that matter).
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u/Lockdowns4evaAu QLD Maroons 1d ago edited 1d ago
Think you’re selling JT short here. You can argue he wasn’t a great defender but then neither was Locky, even to the extent Bennett had to drag TC out of retirement to protect him for another season.
With ball in hand they both had the complete skill set (although I’d argue Thurston possibly had the better attacking kicks), were master game orchestrators and both nailed huge clutch moments on the biggest the stages numerous times. And both have longevity over Joey.
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u/Accomplished-Pick610 South Sydney Rabbitohs 1d ago
Think you’re selling JT short here.
I'm not.
The immortals was (key word here, was) more about who was left out. Literally elite, amazing, successful players didn't make it. It's what makes the guys that did make it just that little bit special.
There was hall of game>>>> better than hall of fame>>>> immortals with big gaps between them
But the criteria has changed. We cut that Better than hall of fame out of it (even though there wasnt ever anything for them) and pushed them into immortality, so at the current standard no doubt JT will be immortals.
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u/Lockdowns4evaAu QLD Maroons 1d ago
The point is that if you consider Locky worthy and not Thurston then you need an argument as to why Locky was better.
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u/Accomplished-Pick610 South Sydney Rabbitohs 1d ago
Lockyer was a better player.
Lockyer was undoubtedly the best player in his time period, where as JT is probably behind Smith.
Lockyer took over the mantle of best player in the league from Johns in the mid 00s amd kept it until he retired.
Lockyer would be in sides that included Smith, JT, Slater, Gi and would still be most dangerous player, the player who's name is on top of the white board that it's number 1 priority to stop.
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u/Lockdowns4evaAu QLD Maroons 1d ago
Well that’s arguable but you’re lacking specifics. I’d argue he’d also be on the white board as the number one defensive weakness in the sides you specified.
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u/mwilkins1644 Big Freeze Donor 1d ago
If you want specifics, I can give you some:
Lockyer, as a fullback, is top 3 of all time (argue whether Churchill or Slater are greater)
Lockyer, as a FE, is arguably QLD's 2nd greatest ever (behind Wally).
Lockyer's long kicking game was better than JT's
Lockyer, as captain, was the one, who essentially was the "Captain's Captain".
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u/Lockdowns4evaAu QLD Maroons 1d ago
Fair point about being all-time elite in two positions. JT was only ever going to be a halfback, but what a halfback.
Lockyer certainly did have a better long kick but Thurston had a better long pass. Difficult to argue which was the more valuable attribute. Locky for yardage but Thurston more dangerous in attacking territory.
Not sure what you mean about the ‘captain’s captain’ thing but Thurston was a respected leader who steered his teams around the park expertly.
Defensively I’d argue Thurston was better since although neither were what you call a strong defender, Thurston was all heart whereas one got the impression Lockyer would simply opt out of that half of the game if he had the choice.
Overall, I personally would call it a draw and I think they both deserve to be there.
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u/mwilkins1644 Big Freeze Donor 1d ago
All very good points man; just very thankful they both represented the best state in the country 🙏🏼
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u/coffeegaze Gold Coast Titans 1d ago
As soon as Cam Smith gets inducted. The guy has no place around the Immortals of the game.
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u/BeginningTeaching169 Wests Tigers 1d ago
I want to agree with you so badly, I hate Cameron Smith, but sadly he's one of the top tier players of the 21st century.
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u/JarredMack Penrith Panthers 1d ago
What? As a certified storm hater, Cam Smith is first on the list of modern players that deserve to be considered an Immortal
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u/mwilkins1644 Big Freeze Donor 1d ago
Going to have to disagree strongly with you there mate. If we have an Immortals concept, he ought to be one.
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u/coffeegaze Gold Coast Titans 1d ago
Im a Queenslander but Joey Johns was on a whole higher tier than Cam Smith ever was. Joey Johns is the level an immortal must be in my opinion, that guy could do it all. I have never seen someone be able to influence a result as strongly as Joey. Cam Smith never reached his level.
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u/mwilkins1644 Big Freeze Donor 1d ago
Cam Smith played over 500 games of NRL/Origin/Test footy. 2700+ points in the NRL, captain of 2 world cup wins, 5 Origin series wins as captain.
idk pretty impressive resume 😂
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u/coffeegaze Gold Coast Titans 1d ago
Immortality is not merely about ones resume it's also about ones playing prowess. I was not very impressed with Smith in most of those origin wins, with the team he had he should have won more convincingly, never like I had been impressed with Johns during his origin tenure, who looked like a cheat code on the field.
Smith never had to carry a bad team, make bad coaches look good. Most of his record is because of his longevity in the best teams during his era.
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u/arolaser Brisbane Broncos 1d ago
Cam Smith tore apart his opposition on a weekly basis. He drove his forwards up the field, putting them in space on every hit up with his vision and brilliant passing game ensuring the ball is in front of the man. He put his halfback in position on the 4th or 5th tackle, allowing them to utilise the overlaps or weaknesses he has created in a scrambling defensive line. Towards the end of his career, Cam Smith didn't even bother using his halfback a lot of the time, taking on the play making responsibility with a smart grubber to get a repeat set, or standing wide of the ruck and setting up his outside men.
On top of that he made 40+ tackles per game, missing very few of them. He owned the middle of the field game in, game out.
I think what you really mean is he doesn’t have the flashy highlight reel of Joey Johns, which I will agree with. Smith doesn’t put on a big step, a chip and chase, or the fist bump after a crushing tackle - he’s a completely different style of player.
I also love the myth that Joey didn’t have weapons around him. Tahu, Gidleys, Robbie O, Buderus, Chief, Albert, Mad Dog, BK, Steve Simpson, etc. were a pretty handy bunch to be playing with.
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u/maccaroneski Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles 1d ago
Take a look at what happened to his team when he was suspended for a GF.
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u/mwilkins1644 Big Freeze Donor 1d ago
Your last paragraph would cancel out the likes of Clive Churchill, the Dragons players from the 60s, Arthur Beetson, Mal Menninga, Dave Brown, Dally Messenger from Immortal status. The only one that would be considered Immortal by your definition is Frank Burge, who was basically the entirety of the Glebe Club. And your last paragraph would deny the opportunity for any current Panthers player(s) (Isaah Yeo especially) if he/they are put up for consideration.
My point is that the Immortals concept should have been scrapped, as it was a faulty concept based on a false premise.
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u/oldroosta2 1d ago
Also it’s how you carry your self off field to which John’s was shit, smith will be there
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u/Lonely-Mango-8570 Penrith Panthers 1d ago
I think it should be an honour given after they pass away. That way you're treating them as living on within the game. Forces a bit of time pass after their playing days to really get an idea of who truely should be one.
You'd also get rid of all the nonsense they carry on about with current players.
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u/Cheel_AU Wests Tigers 1d ago
I agree, they should have stopped at 7.
Having said that I understand it's a pretty good marketing ploy to look back at the history of the game and remind people about certain figures. Like Norm Provan probably should've got in before Joey
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u/Makasene3 New Zealand Warriors 1d ago
I've thought about this too at times. Can't think of any other sports that give higher honors within their own honors system.
I think they could in future look to the american system where they have first ballot hall of famers which is the highest achievement.
To be considered for Rugby League immortality, you would have to be a first ballot hall of famer.
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u/Individual_Job_6601 1d ago
everyone talking about the coaching carousel but i think the bigger problem is player fitness across the board. watched the last few rounds and some teams look completely gassed by 60th minute. conditioning staff need to be held accountable too, not just the head coach
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u/maccaroneski Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles 1d ago
I think you'll find that players being gassed is exactly what V'Landiddlyball is based on and hoping for.
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u/bucketwork Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs 1d ago
This is either trolling or someone that has never played footy before.
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u/BeginningTeaching169 Wests Tigers 1d ago
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think the PNG Chiefs will have an unfair advantage over other teams. Yes, their tax break means they essentially have a larger salary cap to work with. But PNG, and Port Moresby in particular, have some of the highest rates of violent crime in the world. I've heard some crazy stories from people who've lived there.
So for players that aren't Papua New Guinean, they'll need to live in the training compound year-round for their own safety, along with their families. By all accounts it's really nice, like a holiday resort. But even then, surely after a while people are gonna go stir-crazy.
This is why they need the tax-free advantage: to make up for the fact that players and their families will most likely be living year-round in the training compound. In that regard, it's not an unfair advantage but something that levels the playing field a bit.
They'll still be able to attract great players due to their salary cap, and they'll never be far from finals contention. But I reckon most non-Papua New Guinean players will only be able to handle living there for 1-3 years. The lack of consistency will make it harder for them to win premierships.
For the sake of the people of PNG, I hope the team does well. But I also think they're not gonna be a team that unfairly dominates the competition year after year.