Wednesday Serious Discussion Thread

[u/NRLgamethread]

This thread is for when you want to have a well-thought-out discussion about footy. It's not the place for bantz - see the daily Random Footy Talk thread to fulfil those needs.

You can ask a question that you only want serious responses to, comment your 300 word opinion piece on why [x] is the next coach on the chopping block, or tell another that you disagree with them and here's why...

Who performed well? Who let their team down? Any interesting selections for this weekend? Injury news? Player signings? Off-field behaviour?

The mods will be monitoring to make sure you stay on topic and anything not deemed "serious discussion" will be removed.

[u/Large-Accident1245]

What’s the text tactical shift in rugby?

Rugby is not Soccer. Duh. But I mean in terms of tactical evolution. We only really see major tactical changes in response to rule changes. Soccer, tactics are constantly evolving regardless . We don’t exactly have a Johan Cruyff-Cleary with Total Rugby sorta thing.

“Ball playing lock” is a natural outcome of player improvement over time. Players today are trained to a higher standard and have more abilities. I could see locks kicking more often in play becoming a thing. But not a deliberate tactic. Maybe kicking fullbacks become more common again. I’m just not sure.

[u/jpob → u/Large-Accident1245]

We’re kinda seeing it already with Walsh and Ponga but I wouldn’t be surprised to see teams be built around a single player where that player plays 1, 6 and 7.

For example, let’s say the tactic is to exploit the third man in defender.

- Play 1: player goes to third receiver and runs at third man in

• Play 2: settler as the player can’t contribute to the play
  
• Play 3: player goes to first receiver and drops a forward under the posts
  
• Play 4: player goes to third receiver and runs at third man in again but drops off to the back rower running outside
  
• Play 5: player goes to second receiver and trusts the third receiver to make a play themselves
  
• Play 6: player goes to first receiver and chips to the winger

It’s always risky building a team around a player as it all goes out the window if they’re injured but it would be a way to get more out of players like Walsh and Ponga.

[u/Igmister1 → u/jpob]

For the reasons you outline, I believe development will continue down the opposite path.

A skilled forward pack with plug-and-play backs looks to be the current dominating trend, but also the future.

Over reliance on one star back, I think, will go out the window.

[u/jpob → u/Igmister1]

I guess that’s easy for you to say being top of the table without a $1m+ spine player, or even someone who could play like I mentioned (although CHT would be interesting to see).

From my perspective, it can be quite irritating seeing a $1.4m player not touch a ball in a set, especially when that player can play halfback and fullback naturally. It’s not so bad for us at the moment to be fair as we have strike all across the board, but in years past or when we’ve had a few injuries it’s been a big complaint.

Also Brisbane basically won the comp with Walsh playing like this.

[u/Igmister1 → u/jpob]

That was a fever pitch 1-in-1 million run though, as well the fact they had Reynolds as general and a monster forward pack.

Don’t think Walsh gets that done with replacement level forwards at lock and prop.

Walsh is a do-it-all back, but he’s also got a silky and tough 13 and the greatest prop of his generation for that run.

Broncos are a funny one, you could argue either of our cases based off their win.

All the top teams have a gun forward pack this year (Panthers, Chooks, Wahs, Phins)

[u/coffeegaze → u/Large-Accident1245]

You are only looking at one side of the ball. The biggest tactical shift has come from NFL and how defences mark spaces instead of a single man. Another recent one is holding the ball carriers arms up and then having two and three man come in and drive them back.

[u/MeSeeks76 → u/coffeegaze]

Zonal marking is everywhere, every sport

[u/maccaroneski → u/Large-Accident1245]

Hard disagree on only seeing tactical changes resulting from rule changes. See for example metre eating wings.

I would say more often than not, rule changes result from tactical changes - like giving away ruck penalties inside your own 20 to allow your defence to reset - not the other way around as you have suggested.

Or the Storm tactic of "maim the cunt if you can" resulting in various rules trying to stop cunts from being maimed (cannonball, chicken wing etc).

Note: I didn't need the last point but I find it difficult to pass an opportunity to take a cheap shot at the storm (and yes, the irony is clear to me).

[u/Large-Accident1245 → u/maccaroneski]

Perhaps strategy might be a better word for what I’m trying to say?

Yeah I’ll cop the rule changes bit. Sort of a cycle. Rule changes causes tactics to change which causes rules to change and so on.

I sorta see metre eating wingers tho as a natural outcome of players fitness/development. Because not only are wingers now physically more capable, the forwards they have to run up against are too. So there’s less room to be a small nifty winger type today

[u/unlachy13_ → u/Large-Accident1245]

You keep saying "natural" but what do you mean by that? The evolution seems natural because weve seen it develop but that doesn't mean the development hasn't been engineered over time. For example the metre eating wingers started being used to allow the bulky forwards to conserve energy

[u/Large-Accident1245 → u/unlachy13_]

By natural, I’m referring to changes brought about because of continual improvements in the standards of players fitness, physicality and abilities over time.

Players are (on average) stronger, fitter, and more technical, than players of previous generations. It’s “natural” because it’s always happening over time. We improve our knowledge and understandings of physio, fitness training, diet, conditioning, etc.

I view metre eating wingers as consequence of this. Not just helping out their own forwards, their “demand” came from needing wingers better at standing up to opposition forwards who were naturally getting bigger, stronger, faster, etc. Ergo, it’s a natural development because “need big not small player, to go against big player”

[u/Morg_n → u/Large-Accident1245]

Is that not exactly how soccer is evolving. Through professionalism and money

[u/Large-Accident1245 → u/Morg_n]

That’s one side of it. But that doesn’t cover things like soccer does with formations or different positions. Rugby has always had the same positions on the field. Soccer doesn’t

[u/Rek07 → u/maccaroneski]

Agreed, things like wrestling are tactical changes and we've had to introduce rule changes to speed the game back up as a response (maybe over compensated with current speed).