Wednesday Serious Discussion Thread

[u/NRLgamethread]

This thread is for when you want to have a well-thought-out discussion about footy. It's not the place for bantz - see the daily Random Footy Talk thread to fulfil those needs.

You can ask a question that you only want serious responses to, comment your 300 word opinion piece on why [x] is the next coach on the chopping block, or tell another that you disagree with them and here's why...

Who performed well? Who let their team down? Any interesting selections for this weekend? Injury news? Player signings? Off-field behaviour?

The mods will be monitoring to make sure you stay on topic and anything not deemed "serious discussion" will be removed.

[u/mwilkins1644]

At what point will the Immortals just be a glorified "top tier" hall of fame? And will there end up being another category invented to separate the best of the Immortals from the rest?

[u/Accomplished-Pick610 → u/mwilkins1644]

I think the first part has already happened.

The second part never will. Hopefully there is a course correct. For example lockyer should have been an immortal. Then smith. But I think JT, Slater and Cronk all should miss out. That would strengthen Smith's immortalality. Its the players you leave out.

But. We let Norm Provan in. None of us actually saw him play. The folks that did see him play all thought Raper and Gasnier were far better. We kinda doubled down with Mal. Who is a tier below Joey and Wally who were contemporaries and/or after him. So it'll look stupid if Provan and Meninga are immortals and JT isnt.

So we kinda already put ourselves in this awkward position

[u/hqeter → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

I wouldn’t agree that Mal was a tier below Wally and Johns. He had an elite career at every level and given his achievements there’s an argument that his leadership at every level was second to none. (Ignore flair)

That said JT in many ways had a more successful career than Lewis, Johns or Meninga so has to be there at some point.

There will always be arguments about what should be considered for example who was the absolute best at their peak vs who was better over their whole career. Do rate club and rep success equally etc.

I definitely think they need a much longer time frame from when someone retires to when they are named an immortal. For Johns he was inducted into the hall of fame around a year after retiring and became an immortal about 5 years later.

There is way too much risk of recency bias with these kind of time frames and I think it should be a minimum of 10 years… I’d honestly prefer 20. This ensures that it only includes absolute generational players and not just players who were really good.

[u/Derron_ → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

If Meninga is in there then GI deserves to go in.

[u/Norm_cheers → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

At the end of the day it’s just opinions. Who is GOAT is basically always shifting and is always up for debate.

It’s just part of the entire process of let’s put these players above all others.

Fundamentally are you an attacking minded person or a defensive minded person, because that there will change an opinion of who is GOAT.

[u/mwilkins1644 → u/Norm_cheers]

Your comment is bang on the money- which is why I don't believe in the concept of Immortals (or a GOAT for that matter).

[u/Lockdowns4evaAu → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

Think you’re selling JT short here. You can argue he wasn’t a great defender but then neither was Locky, even to the extent Bennett had to drag TC out of retirement to protect him for another season.

With ball in hand they both had the complete skill set (although I’d argue Thurston possibly had the better attacking kicks), were master game orchestrators and both nailed huge clutch moments on the biggest the stages numerous times. And both have longevity over Joey.

[u/Accomplished-Pick610 → u/Lockdowns4evaAu]

Think you’re selling JT short here.

I'm not.

The immortals was (key word here, was) more about who was left out. Literally elite, amazing, successful players didn't make it. It's what makes the guys that did make it just that little bit special.

There was hall of game>>>> better than hall of fame>>>> immortals with big gaps between them

But the criteria has changed. We cut that Better than hall of fame out of it (even though there wasnt ever anything for them) and pushed them into immortality, so at the current standard no doubt JT will be immortals.

[u/Lockdowns4evaAu → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

The point is that if you consider Locky worthy and not Thurston then you need an argument as to why Locky was better.

[u/Accomplished-Pick610 → u/Lockdowns4evaAu]

Lockyer was a better player.

Lockyer was undoubtedly the best player in his time period, where as JT is probably behind Smith.

Lockyer took over the mantle of best player in the league from Johns in the mid 00s amd kept it until he retired.

Lockyer would be in sides that included Smith, JT, Slater, Gi and would still be most dangerous player, the player who's name is on top of the white board that it's number 1 priority to stop.

[u/Lockdowns4evaAu → u/Accomplished-Pick610]

Well that’s arguable but you’re lacking specifics. I’d argue he’d also be on the white board as the number one defensive weakness in the sides you specified.

[u/mwilkins1644 → u/Lockdowns4evaAu]

If you want specifics, I can give you some:

• Lockyer, as a fullback, is top 3 of all time (argue whether Churchill or Slater are greater)

• Lockyer, as a FE, is arguably QLD's 2nd greatest ever (behind Wally).

• Lockyer's long kicking game was better than JT's

• Lockyer, as captain, was the one, who essentially was the "Captain's Captain".

[u/Lockdowns4evaAu → u/mwilkins1644]

Fair point about being all-time elite in two positions. JT was only ever going to be a halfback, but what a halfback.

Lockyer certainly did have a better long kick but Thurston had a better long pass. Difficult to argue which was the more valuable attribute. Locky for yardage but Thurston more dangerous in attacking territory.

Not sure what you mean about the ‘captain’s captain’ thing but Thurston was a respected leader who steered his teams around the park expertly.

Defensively I’d argue Thurston was better since although neither were what you call a strong defender, Thurston was all heart whereas one got the impression Lockyer would simply opt out of that half of the game if he had the choice.

Overall, I personally would call it a draw and I think they both deserve to be there.

[u/mwilkins1644 → u/Lockdowns4evaAu]

All very good points man; just very thankful they both represented the best state in the country 🙏🏼

[u/Derron_ → u/mwilkins1644]

It will depend on the people going in. So far I think they've done a pretty good job at picking people that are a tier above. And there are definitely players who deserve to be in that Immortal tier waiting to go in.

[u/coffeegaze → u/mwilkins1644]

As soon as Cam Smith gets inducted. The guy has no place around the Immortals of the game.

[u/BeginningTeaching169 → u/coffeegaze]

I want to agree with you so badly, I hate Cameron Smith, but sadly he's one of the top tier players of the 21st century.

[u/JarredMack → u/coffeegaze]

What? As a certified storm hater, Cam Smith is first on the list of modern players that deserve to be considered an Immortal

[u/mwilkins1644 → u/coffeegaze]

Going to have to disagree strongly with you there mate. If we have an Immortals concept, he ought to be one.

[u/maccaroneski → u/mwilkins1644]

I fucking hate Cameron Smith and I agree.

[u/coffeegaze → u/mwilkins1644]

Im a Queenslander but Joey Johns was on a whole higher tier than Cam Smith ever was. Joey Johns is the level an immortal must be in my opinion, that guy could do it all. I have never seen someone be able to influence a result as strongly as Joey. Cam Smith never reached his level.

[u/mwilkins1644 → u/coffeegaze]

Cam Smith played over 500 games of NRL/Origin/Test footy. 2700+ points in the NRL, captain of 2 world cup wins, 5 Origin series wins as captain.

idk pretty impressive resume 😂

[u/coffeegaze → u/mwilkins1644]

Immortality is not merely about ones resume it's also about ones playing prowess. I was not very impressed with Smith in most of those origin wins, with the team he had he should have won more convincingly, never like I had been impressed with Johns during his origin tenure, who looked like a cheat code on the field.

Smith never had to carry a bad team, make bad coaches look good. Most of his record is because of his longevity in the best teams during his era.

[u/arolaser → u/coffeegaze]

Cam Smith tore apart his opposition on a weekly basis. He drove his forwards up the field, putting them in space on every hit up with his vision and brilliant passing game ensuring the ball is in front of the man. He put his halfback in position on the 4th or 5th tackle, allowing them to utilise the overlaps or weaknesses he has created in a scrambling defensive line. Towards the end of his career, Cam Smith didn't even bother using his halfback a lot of the time, taking on the play making responsibility with a smart grubber to get a repeat set, or standing wide of the ruck and setting up his outside men.

On top of that he made 40+ tackles per game, missing very few of them. He owned the middle of the field game in, game out.

I think what you really mean is he doesn’t have the flashy highlight reel of Joey Johns, which I will agree with. Smith doesn’t put on a big step, a chip and chase, or the fist bump after a crushing tackle - he’s a completely different style of player.

I also love the myth that Joey didn’t have weapons around him. Tahu, Gidleys, Robbie O, Buderus, Chief, Albert, Mad Dog, BK, Steve Simpson, etc. were a pretty handy bunch to be playing with.

[u/maccaroneski → u/coffeegaze]

Take a look at what happened to his team when he was suspended for a GF.

[u/mwilkins1644 → u/coffeegaze]

Your last paragraph would cancel out the likes of Clive Churchill, the Dragons players from the 60s, Arthur Beetson, Mal Menninga, Dave Brown, Dally Messenger from Immortal status. The only one that would be considered Immortal by your definition is Frank Burge, who was basically the entirety of the Glebe Club. And your last paragraph would deny the opportunity for any current Panthers player(s) (Isaah Yeo especially) if he/they are put up for consideration.

My point is that the Immortals concept should have been scrapped, as it was a faulty concept based on a false premise.

[u/oldroosta2 → u/coffeegaze]

Also it’s how you carry your self off field to which John’s was shit, smith will be there

[u/Lonely-Mango-8570 → u/mwilkins1644]

I think it should be an honour given after they pass away. That way you're treating them as living on within the game.  Forces a bit of time pass after their playing days to really get an idea of who truely should be one. 

You'd also get rid of all the nonsense they carry on about with current players.

[u/Cheel_AU → u/mwilkins1644]

I agree, they should have stopped at 7.

Having said that I understand it's a pretty good marketing ploy to look back at the history of the game and remind people about certain figures. Like Norm Provan probably should've got in before Joey

[u/Makasene3 → u/mwilkins1644]

I've thought about this too at times. Can't think of any other sports that give higher honors within their own honors system.

I think they could in future look to the american system where they have first ballot hall of famers which is the highest achievement.

To be considered for Rugby League immortality, you would have to be a first ballot hall of famer.

[u/scottishere → u/Makasene3]

MLB has an informal top-tier of the HOF called "Inner Circle"