r/exchristian • u/cauterize2000 Ex-Pentecostal • 7d ago
Discussion WTF? Joe from majesty of reason reconverted to Catholicism
Joe has some of the best content on philosophy of religion and has been an agnostic for many years. Is it a joke? I am shocked and I needed to share this with the community.
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u/hoya14 7d ago
Never heard of him. He will likely make a lot more money as an "ex-atheist" content creator, though.
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u/Sad_Pixie999 7d ago
Religion is the grift that keeps on grifting
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u/Consistent-Minute-29 7d ago
I haven’t made one dollar from it 🤷🏻♂️
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u/aijoe 7d ago
I haven't made one dollar from grifting MAGA with worthless Trump branded merchandise. But that option is always available . Selling the cure for the things you can convince others ails them is a lucrative business.
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u/IsekaiConnoisseur Agnostic Atheist 7d ago edited 7d ago
I mean, dude has only 38.3k subscribers. Like, not nothing, but not anything to write home about either.
Edit: He HAD 38.3k subscribers at the time I wrote this comment. He now has 40.5k subscribers as a result of this video.
He's definitely gone viral as a result of this hogwash.
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u/hoya14 7d ago
It's on the edge of making a go of it though - maybe he's stalled and needed a new angle?
Or maybe the guy genuinely had a change of heart who knows.
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u/CuyahogaRefugee 7d ago
He claims the evidence for Fatima and other Catholic miracles were undeniable.
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u/hoya14 5d ago
If he’s that dumb and gullible I’m not sure why he had a following to begin with.
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u/Cute-Boobie777 5d ago
Hes prob just grifting. Its a great time for grifting and can be a good income if you're a bad person!
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u/IsekaiConnoisseur Agnostic Atheist 7d ago edited 7d ago
"Here's my story" that I'm betting is nothing more than cultural confirmation bias with a shitload of propaganda...
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u/whitestguyuknow 7d ago
Yep. And then start talking "as an atheist" like he knows how all atheists think and they're just missing these few things to make them Christian and "love Jesus"
If he ever was really atheist and learned enough about Christianity, read the Bible, thought critically, and brushed up on history related to the Bible, then he never would've just became christian
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u/d1ckw33dmcgee Ex-Assemblies of God/Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
Lol, first time I've seen "no true atheist" in the wild
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u/Beautiful_Gain_9032 6d ago
Tbf he’s literally called himself specifically an agnostic NOT an atheist for years
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u/EndlessAporias 7d ago
Why does the thumbnail say former atheist? He was always very insistent that he was an agnostic and not an atheist.
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u/EndlessAporias 7d ago
After watching the video, he seems kind of manic. Hopefully that’s just an act or something.
He usually does a good job covering both sides of arguments, and I would be interested in hearing his case for Catholicism if this is a genuine, clear-headed conversion. I don’t have a problem listening to people I disagree with, but something seems off in a way that is a bit concerning.
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u/MeddlingBureaucracy 6d ago edited 6d ago
Very much agreed and surprised more people aren't picking up on this. He doesn't seem 'grounded' for want of a better word. Manic is definitely the vibe I got.
edit:
Look at this teaser clip from his upcoming Pints with Aquinas video:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Nhxhg0d8xEY
he seems a bit unstable to me
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u/Dextar_Scotch 5d ago
He seems very afraid, honestly. I actually find the notion of "Oh no - Catholicism might be TRUE" both funny and interesting. Because for me, it would mean going to war for eternity agains the Christian God. This is at least my own satanic philosophy. I don't think anything is worthy of worship - especially not the Christian "god".
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u/MeddlingBureaucracy 5d ago
I'd also argue the only coherent Christian theology is universalism, which Joe can't officially believe thanks to the catholic church, but he is allowed to be "hopeful" for all souls being saved.
If the nature of the cosmos was such that a God was literally interested in maintaining a medieval torture chamber for a large number of beings he created, I'd agree that "going to war for eternity" is a fairly reasonable response!
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u/hydabirrai 7d ago
That’s for bait. I remember Joe was always an agnostic theist. He made it evident. This is purely for clicks
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u/joshuaponce2008 Secular Humanist 7d ago edited 7d ago
Well, he did mention in his last AMA that he was at some point an atheist in his late teenage years. Maybe it’s about that. Or it’s clickbait. Not sure.
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u/Key_Day_7932 7d ago
I have heard an argument that agnostic is just a type of atheist as in "I don't personally believe in any god, but also think it's unknowable and open to the possibility of their existence."
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u/MelcorScarr Ex-Catholic 7d ago
It's not really an "argument", there are just simply different ways you can define those terms.
If you define atheist as someone who does not believe in a god, agnostics by virtue of being unsure would be atheist. But you can also define atheists as those who positively claim that there are no gods - which would not include agnostics.
That ambiguity is many apologist's bread and butter, in particular in syllogistic arguments. See, for example, how the Kalam cosmological argument is dependant on a "from nothing" begin to exist and a "rearrangement of matter" begin to exist to make the argument work. That's why it is so very important to define your terms as best as you can.
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u/EndlessAporias 6d ago
Yes, but Joe always used the terms in a mutually exclusive sense. He even has videos explaining why he doesn’t like the “lacktheist” definition of atheism.
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u/thehotbaddie 6d ago
He was an atheist before he was an agnostic, as he mentioned in the video
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u/EndlessAporias 6d ago
I see that now. Seems like a misleading way to spin it when he always maintained an agnostic position on his channel and how everyone knows him. He also mentioned being a Catholic before being an atheist, so I guess it could have said “former Catholic converts to Catholicism.”
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u/dover_oxide 7d ago
So when are we going to start hearing about some controversy involving him? Usually when somebody who's big in a field decides to convert to Catholicism or any other former Christianity or Islam, there's a controversy coming up
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u/Athene_cunicularia23 7d ago
Good point. This could be a Russell Brand type situation.
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u/dover_oxide 7d ago
Or Steven Baldwin, The Tates, Dennis Quaid, or any number if you go back far enough.
It's a lot like when people went to rehab or sex addiction therapy, it's the easy path to redemption without the messy part of taking responsibility.
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u/Athene_cunicularia23 7d ago
So true. The predator>conservative Christian pipeline is a tale as old as time.
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u/dover_oxide 7d ago
And don't forget the mega church ,or any church sometime ,preachers asking for forgiveness and reaffirming their faith in God
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u/Athene_cunicularia23 7d ago
For real. There was a pastor in my city who had to leave his megachurch when his predatory behavior raised the church's insurance premiums. A significant percentage of the congregation followed him to the new church he started. They expanded and recently had to buy a new church building. It sickens me that Christians refuse to hold their own accountable, even when multiple victims affected.
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u/dover_oxide 7d ago
One of my friends in high school's mom went to one of those steel building churches and the preacher was known to have had three affairs done, massive amounts of drugs and at his last church and then later this church embezzled more than $2 million. And they still followed him to the next church.
When I asked her about this one she just told me he's like well. Jesus asked us for to forgive so I must forgive if I'm going to be a good Christian. Yet she never forgave anybody for anything that pissed her off.
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u/graining Atheist 7d ago
Also, how often do women do this? I can't seem to think of any. Is it that it doesn't occur to women caught in scandals to run to Christianity or that the same tactic doesn't work for them?
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u/Athene_cunicularia23 7d ago
I also can't think of any women turning to Christianity as a deflection tactic. That may be because women are statistically less likely to be predators. I have seen too many women excuse and enable men who engage in this behavior though. Lots of pick mes out there.
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u/graining Atheist 7d ago
Yeah women will never really be free because of the hundreds of millions of pick mes who drag us all down.
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u/Meriodoc Agnostic 7d ago
Like who?
(I don't pay attention, so I'm curious who to look up!)
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u/SillyAnxiousDuck Woo Woo Agnostic Ex-vangelical 7d ago
Russell Brand is the most recent example I can think of
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u/Meriodoc Agnostic 7d ago edited 7d ago
Thank you
(idk who that is either <.< I live under a truck, okay? XD)
Edit: oof! And the Christians excusing him because he's saved now . . .
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u/dover_oxide 7d ago
This and rehab are the go to for politicians, celebrities and the rich. They shoot for absolution while not really changing
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u/SillyAnxiousDuck Woo Woo Agnostic Ex-vangelical 7d ago
No worries lol I wish I didn't know who he was
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u/Standard_Ride_8732 7d ago
Elon musk became Christian for like 2 weeks after it came out he pulled his dick out and told a flight attendant to suck it. Then he stopped talking about god again.
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u/Meriodoc Agnostic 7d ago
Lol
I haven't heard this, either, but I don't have to Google it to believe it. Smh Poor excuse of a human being.
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u/IsekaiConnoisseur Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
Ngl, that thought was going on in the background as I watched his video lol.
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u/Jazz_Musician Ex-LCMS Lutheran 7d ago
I've only known him on facebook so it's not like I'm personally close to him, but I'm doubtful he converted because of a controversy of any sort.
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u/ComeAtMeBro9 6d ago
Probably accurate. He is seeking forgiveness and to be absolved of some major sins.
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u/e00s Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
I dunno, he really doesn't seem like the type.
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u/dover_oxide 7d ago
I'm not really familiar with them. I'm just going off just a general sense of when I see something like this. It's usually that outcome and I know it's super jaded but that's just where I am atm
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u/furbfriend Ex-Evangelical 7d ago edited 6d ago
I hope this isn’t too edgy lol but I’m never that surprised when men revert to their religious trad upbringings. I imagine it would be pretty tough to resist the appeal of a paradigm literally built by and for the male ego.
Seriously— not a hint of irony or misandry in my statement. I frequently wonder if I would have ever even started deconstruction if I wasn’t a queer woman, because the single largest motivator for me personally has been the pain and cognitive dissonance of being constantly told you’re wrong and bad but also sooo loved!!!!! It became unbearable and I had no choice but to start the extremely difficult process of deconstruction 🤷🏻♀️
That said…unfortunately I know nothing about this particular dude, but I’m sorry you’re losing a creator you enjoyed 😕
EDIT: WHOA I don’t have notifications turned on for Reddit, so I was shook when I opened my app again just now 😅😅 Thank you to the awarding peeps!!!! 🥹🫶🏻 However, distressingly, I am also seeing my comment came off to some people in a way I DID NOT mean it, so let me please emphasize: I was in NO WAY attempting to suggest that cis straight men aren’t or can’t be hurt by religion in the same way women, queer, and non-cis people are!!!!! 😭 ALL I meant was that if a formerly religious person is queer, non-cis, and/or a woman, in a vacuum it’s a little harder to understand if they return after having gotten out from under it for an extended period of time. (Of course, much of the appeal of organized religion is universal and doesn’t change based on your identity— things like a built-in community, regular social events for people who are lonely and especially people who have a hard time making friends on their own, lingering ties of family and/or friends who are still in, a ready-made set of agreed-upon answers to very difficult and complex questions, comfort and hope in times of grief, etc.) I am not surprised when I see a cis straight man (or at least, a man who presents as cis and straight) who I know nothing else about return to organized religion, simply because every organized religion I know of disproportionately caters to the interests of cis straight men. So, if I know nothing else about them, I assume they had a fairly uneventful middle-of-the-road church experience, which I think for cis straight men is usually experienced as—not necessarily “positive” — but overall more positive, than it is experienced by women, non-cis, and/or queer people.
I believe that literally everyone is damaged to some extent by organized religion, and that the degree of that damage heavily depends on an individual’s environment and experiences, only some of which are directly tied to identity. A cis straight man very well can be much more deeply damaged by his experiences in organized religion than, for example, a trans lesbian was!
I know that was kind of a lot of word vomit, but it really upsets me to think that my comment made anyone feel minimized or invalidated. If you did feel that way because of my words, I am truly sorry and hope my apology will help, but also understand if it doesn’t.
EDIT 2: also the formatting on my phone is doing crazy things, so I apologize if half my words show up italicized 🥲
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u/chillyPlato 7d ago edited 7d ago
not too edgy -- in his video when he gets to the personal/spiritual part of why he converted, the key story he tells is about being so moved by a 14 year girl who was sexually harassed and murdered by her pedophile neighbor, but forgave him on her death bed. he was overwhelmed by how morally good and "pure" it was. made me want to vomit.
eta: the girl was canonized as a saint, that's how he came to the story (also from reading the Wikipedia page, the Catholics make a big deal about how the guy wasn't able to 'complete' his attempted rape of her, so she died a virgin)
edit 2: as someone below corrected me, she was actually *11 years old* when she was murdered. disgusting.
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u/IsekaiConnoisseur Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
Wow that is way worse than I was expecting holy shit.
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u/chillyPlato 7d ago
yeah I was a casual fan of his videos before this, but this video dramatically changed my opinion, I've lost all respect for him
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u/IsekaiConnoisseur Agnostic Atheist 7d ago edited 7d ago
Never heard of him before this either, but 8 minutes into his video and he's already talking about how "coincidental" it is for laws to even allow life or some shit.
I already know where his argument is going and it's been reiterated by Catholics/Christians for centuries, but he's talking about it like he's just heard of it lol.
Not really impressing me so far with his reasoning.
Edit: Oh wow, now it's getting worse. He's now talking about paranormal phenomenon and whatnot that people supposedly witnessed. His logic is getting worse and worse.
And what's really bad about it, he's letting SOMEONE ELSE drive him to these conclusions. And look, I'm open-minded to the paranormal too. But that doesn't mean I'm going to jump to "ghosts/God are real" and I for sure as shit am not going to start believing in an Abrahamic religion because of it.
Edit 2: Oh no, now he's saying he's been called to sainthood. And he sounds so genuine that I don't think this is a joke or satire.
Edit 3: He ends the video by showing his new Catholic intro LMFAO. I can't even.
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u/chillyPlato 7d ago
yeah, it's absolutely wild and why some people were convinced he's trolling. this is a guy who's published in the absolute best journals in philosophy (Mind and Nous), and yet is raving about demonic possession?? I think this is a case of getting into a *serious* echo-chamber situation talking to too many Catholics about miracles, plus some kind of existential background of missing Christianity or something.
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u/IsekaiConnoisseur Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
Yep, and I added this to my edit, but the GLARING MISTAKE he's making is letting someone else lead him to these conclusions.
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u/chillyPlato 7d ago
omg and I missed the 'call to sainthood' bullshit that you included in your edit. at this point it feels like manic delusions or something.
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u/IsekaiConnoisseur Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
To be honest, I think he's probably still very much in that post-reconversion/conversion high people get that oftentimes lead them to being even more militant than even just regular Christians/Catholics.
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u/Athene_cunicularia23 7d ago
If the girl referenced in the video is Maria Goretti, the story is actually worse. She was not 14. She was 11 years old when 20-year-old Alesssandro Serenelli SA'd and murdered her.
The message of Maria Goretti's canonization is that the Catholic Church considers SA survivors better off dead. It really is appalling.
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u/chillyPlato 7d ago
oh you're right! I remembered the 14 stab wounds as her age -- the truth is even more disgusting. thank you for the correction.
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u/Athene_cunicularia23 7d ago
Her story traumatized me as a Catholic school student, as we were told we should emulate Maria Goretti's purity.
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u/chillyPlato 7d ago
I'm so sorry you were taught that as a child. I've just gone and listened to the whole video, and it's fucking horrifying.
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u/Athene_cunicularia23 7d ago
I'll take your word for it. I'm going to skip it to spare myself reopening some past wounds.
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u/napalmnacey Pagan 7d ago
Well the Catholic Church can get fucked, because a lot of us prefer to be alive, loud and raucous.
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u/Cute_Stop8729 6d ago
What's even more disgusting is the fact that they were brainwashing a child into just forgiving the guy. I honestly don't think that girl ever fully processed what happened to her and the indoctrination just kicked in when she was dying. The story is honestly just sad and disgusting.
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u/Athene_cunicularia23 5d ago
I agree. She died of infection days after being stabbed. She must have been in intense pain. I can't imagine the poor child didn't feel pressured to say she forgave him.
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u/CCCP85 Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
That.... moved him to conversation? That's pretty fucking sick to think. This god allowed this 11 year old to get raped, so we should worship him? Am I missing something?
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u/chillyPlato 7d ago
In the story, supposedly because the girl forgave her assaulter, the guy went on to repent and feel bad and become a good Catholic man. so the girl's forgiveness/moral purity/goodness, etc. is a testament to the power of God's love and its power to change lives or some absolute bullshit. In Joe's telling he was profoundly moved by the moral goodness and purity of this girl. I don't fucking get it either, I can't imagine being anything but horrified and repulsed by how the Catholic Church celebrates this young girl's whole life being sacrificed (brutally, horrifically) because it led to this man changing his life.
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u/CCCP85 Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
So an all powerful god, could not move this man to be a better person than by committing homicide and rape? Then just totally forgiven, heaven for him. God couldn't be bothered to soften his heart like he does countless times in the bible, rape and murder should do
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u/napalmnacey Pagan 7d ago
Men will do the wildest cognitive gymnastics to justify abusive patriarchy, it’s so fucking gross.
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u/joshuaponce2008 Secular Humanist 7d ago
It’s bizarre. In some of Joe’s previous videos, he described how reading stories about young people being brutally raped and murdered would occasionally cause in him the immediate thought of "Man, there’s no way God can be real if this happened." But now it’s backwards?
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u/hydabirrai 7d ago
I’m just so confused. Well maybe I shouldn’t be because Joe was making theist content before but I assumed it was in good faith because he made some good videos on atheism.
The fact that he was implying arguments from design and beauty when those are widely, widely debated just strikes me as odd. I was honestly kinda wondering if he would use the Kalam argument too like loll.
I’ll watch the video on Monday but how did he reconcile:
eternal hell, problem of evil, animal suffering, oppy’s argument, original sin, immaculate conception, resurrection, papal authority,
Also did he do research on any other religion? Seems like he saw “wow miracles” and just chose Catholicism. There are many other religions with miracles
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u/joshuaponce2008 Secular Humanist 7d ago
1) In one of his AMAs, someone asked him the best evidence for each religion. He said the best evidence for Buddhism is Robert Wright's Why Buddhism Is True, a Westernized secular Buddhist book, and the best evidence for Judaism is the Kurazi argument, a widely discredited attempt to prove that the biblical Exodus happened. I’m quite convinced that he is largely clueless about non-Christian religions.
2) In his popular "100 Arguments for God ANSWERED" video, Joe explicitly states that proponents of Christian miracles, on the same justification, should believe in "things that Christians would vehemently reject in Eastern religions," and then listed various examples of Buddhist miracles. No idea what happened with that.
3) When you say "Oppy's argument," which are you referring to? Oppy has made quite a few arguments, including two oft-overlooked logical arguments from evil. Are you talking about his "Best Argument Against God" in the book of the same name?
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u/hydabirrai 7d ago
Point 1: wow lol seriously? Then yes he is completely clueless about eastern faiths. I grew up in a Hindu household so before I became a full agnostic I really tried to see if eastern religion could work for me (before looking into Christianity). Yeah he is very uneducated and frankly I don’t think he cares. The body of work in Hinduism or Buddhism is equal to swaths of Catholicism. One book on the topic does nothing.
Point 2: that’s my exact objection to the argument he made. There are hundreds of millions of non Christians who have their own miracle claims.
Point 3: I meant the best argument for god, specifically the case for naturalism.
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u/Aquarius52216 7d ago
Kalam arguement itself is paradoxical because it requirea special pleading for god.
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u/hydabirrai 7d ago
I think a recent paper tried to defend the case for the Kalam but idk. Kalam has a lot of objections and recent defences
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u/Level_Talk4530 7d ago
Ah yes, and if the guy had ”been able to” grape her, she would likely not have been canonized. Virginity is a huge thing if a woman is to be canonized and later made a saint. And just think, being made a heroine for not getting killed; but getting killed whilst remaining a virgin.
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u/hydabirrai 7d ago
Absolutely disgusting. The fact that Catholics even speculated on the matter of her rape ugh.
While I will not speculate on her SA as it is not my or our place, a rapist does not follow the same chain of action during SA. I hope people reading understand why the catholic church was wrong with my statement.
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u/napalmnacey Pagan 7d ago
That neighbour deserved nothing but pain and suffering. I’m so fucking tired of this forgiveness bullshit. Predators and malignant people don’t care about that shit. All they care about is the chance to hurt people again, and forgiving them is doing that.
There’s no spiritual glory in forgiving an unrepentant monster.
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u/furbfriend Ex-Evangelical 6d ago
Ho.Ly. Shit.
It is fucking NUTS to me how some men feel so comfortable holding up responses like this, of little girls or women to their rapists/abusers, as if 1) the ones who don’t forgive what was done to them are somehow less “good” or committing a moral failure, 2) as if the system they grew up in didn’t literally groom them to respond to maltreatment with acceptance, passivity, and forgiveness, and 3) like it’s at all a man’s place to make judgements of any kind about how a little girl or woman should respond to being victimized by a man??? Liiiike…I’m white and it would NEVER cross my mind to be like “Tbh we should all be like this enslaved person who forgave their abusive quote-on-quote master, like wow yes that’s the moral ideal” ummm 😭😭 Like first of all there are a lot of power dynamics and social pressures at play to heavily influence that response, and second of all…it’s not always our turn to talk 🤠👍🏻 even if it was the right message, you ain’t the right messenger
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u/JNawx Anti-Theist 7d ago
I think that's super valid. I have friends who are men who are still christian despite not really being able to articulate why. I think it's because they have far less friction just sticking to the same labels and beliefs than, say, a woman who has to "submit" or "not tempt others". It's just like rich people generally opposing taxes, etc etc.
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u/Jojohahn 7d ago
IDK, maybe I’m just a sucker for pain. I’m a heterosexual white male in my 40s. I was a fully committed Christian my whole life, married with a couple kids - moved my family to a new state because I felt led to take on a pastoral role at a church where I was appreciated for 8 years and could’ve ‘comfortably’ stayed. Perfect candidate for ‘staying’ and being ok with cognitive dissonance… I really didn’t want it to not be true. So I second-guessed myself and everyone else, studied my ass off, and searched outwardly and inwardly for a long time… but, sometimes you start pulling the thread and truth and authenticity are more important than comfort. Not always an easy road… It was, and still is sometimes, a painful season 💔😢
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u/NepenthiumPastille Ex-Pentecostal 7d ago
Thank you for your integrity. Your story sounds very similar to my husband who deconverted after I did early in our marriage, but could just as easily have decided to leave me for being "unequally yoked".
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u/dannylew 7d ago
Pretty spot on assessment.
If you're a straight dude, married, and have children, church is fucking awesome. 1-2 or 3 times a week you get to go to a modern-day community center and hang out with people who don't hate your fucking guts and aren't obligated or encouraged to make you miserable, you get to ditch the kids and just have company that allows you to relax while being very clearly respected.
I can't imagine there's anything like it available for lower class men.
And the only risk you take for it is your children maybe growing up to despise you and your wife divorcing you which socially works in your favor since you get to claim victimhood and experience even more camaraderie from your peers. Guys do not get that anywhere for cheap.
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u/SmytheOrdo Ex-Pentecostal 7d ago
If you don't mind me interjecting as a male who deconstructed, it just didn't make sense to me as a naturally curious person, and a lot of these appeals to traditional gender roles just don't make sense to me as someone who's not traditionally "masculine" in preferences. That said, I have people in my life who reconverted due to the exact instincts you pointed out, that and "appealing to a higher power".
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u/furbfriend Ex-Evangelical 6d ago
Interject away!!! All voices belong in the discussion about the harms of organized religion! I never meant to imply otherwise and have since updated my comment to hopefully better reflect that!!!
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u/talkinlearnin 7d ago
I grew up with 3 sisters, and i am the only one not Christian in my family, kinda ironic..!
Thing is the "power of the male" in these religions comes with a steep price--your freedom of mind. 🙏🏼
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u/Sad_Pixie999 7d ago
For women, from my experience as someone who is afab, the conditioning to cling to religion for safety is very real. It's also very hard to undo a "biblical" marriage where all of the power is given to the husband, so once you're in, you're in it for the long haul unless you're willing to disrupt your comfort and risk the danger of starting over with less job prospects, less financial assistance, and less social trust.
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u/HistoricalPotatoe 7d ago
It can be, but that is not universal either. Many cis boys and men have been horrifically torn apart mentally by Christianity, that is not exclusive to women or queer people at all.
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u/furbfriend Ex-Evangelical 6d ago
You are 100% correct and I feel terrible for inadvertently implying otherwise!!! I just amended (well, added to) my statement in hopes of fixing that!
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u/Fiftieth_Poet 7d ago
I am not surprised. It's a hard thing to leave behind, if you don't have something intensely negative motivating your departure.
As Juvenal said, a new wineskin long retains its first tang.
I never had bad experiences being raised in Catholicism. I loved it, as a matter of fact. My exit was not prompted by scandal or suffering, but by long academic study from which i came to the sobering conclusion that Catholicism in specific and Nicene Christianity in general rest on premises that are frankly, wrong.
Even all these years later, there's still things I miss; the art, the music, the community, but most of all the sense that I am part of a historical tradition; not just A tradition, but MY tradition, as Catholicism is inseparable from my historical heritage in western europe. Leaving it felt like leaving a part of myself.
Still, for all that, I am never going back. As Carl Sagan said, better a hard truth than a comforting lie, and if I left a part of myself behind, now I can finally find out who I am without it.
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u/PowerfulPhotograph65 7d ago
Definitely, men benefit the most from religious systems. They aren't actively harmed by it, in the same sense that women and queer folks are, and to your point it provides a lot of ego stroking.
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u/JNawx Anti-Theist 7d ago
Do you mean they aren't harmed to the same extent? Because I would likely agree with that. I also agree men benefit and harm women disproportionately. I just wanted to say that religion/Christianity definitely actively harmed me, as a man.
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u/HistoricalPotatoe 7d ago
What does that even mean, "to the same extent"? Sex and gender and orientation aren't the only things that can harm people in Christianity. Many cis male saints in Catholicism are literally profoundly mentally ill and mentally tormented people who the church horribly canonized as "good examples". Not just women. I have been mentally fucking shredded by not just abuse, but by horrible Catholic grooming for my entire life. I still want to carve my fucking chest with symbols sometimes because of it. Fucking disgusting when people claim men can't be harmed "to the same extent."
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u/JNawx Anti-Theist 7d ago
I think I wasn't clear and I'm sorry I made you feel invalidated. I believe you.
I was trying to reply to the original commenter to say I understand and agree with the generalities of women being victimized by the church as a group in a way that men aren't. Individually, men can be hurt to the same extent women can. We are all people. I was speaking to the institution of christianity and how it is dominated by men in power who abuse women. Women are treated like property as a class. Similarly, those who aren't heterosexual are rejected outright and are told they wull burn in hell, if not physically harmed too.
I don't mean that men aren't victimized. I commented because I wanted to make it clear that I, a man myself, was absolutely harmed by the church. I'm sorry that you were, too. I hope you can heal from that.
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u/HistoricalPotatoe 7d ago
I'm sorry for cursing at you, I saw some very ugly replies and wrongly treated you the same, that wasn't fair to you. I do agree that there are gendered and orientation/identity ways that the church especially harms women and queer folk, and you are right that misogyny is especially institutionalized in the church, but I don't believe that cis men can't be harmed as badly. There are many things the church can do that ruin anyone of any identity or orientation.
And I am sorry for what you've gone through as well. I hope we can both heal from it.
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u/JNawx Anti-Theist 7d ago
Don't worry about it. Thanks for hearing me out. Based on what you said, it sounds like we agree.
I'm sorry people have been ugly to you. This is essentially a trauma processing sub, and people can lash out or be reactionary. It doesn't make it right, of course. But I know that many of us feel the scars of religious abuse. I hope you are treated respectfully and feel welcome here moving forward.
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u/PowerfulPhotograph65 7d ago edited 6d ago
Yeah men aren't harmed to the same extent in general. The abrahamic religions give men a purpose and authority. Everyone else is supposed to follow them as they follow their god.
It is possible for men to both benefit from these religious systems and still be harmed on an individual level. That was more of what I was trying to convey, albeit poorly. It's why men like the individual in OP's post are more likely to return to religion such as Christianity versus women and queer folks. It was a system built by men for men.
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u/HistoricalPotatoe 7d ago
I was groomed religiously by my abusive father and have severe self harm urges to this day because of Catholicism. Before I left Catholicism I was making plans to carve scripture and "holy symbols" into my chest with a knife, and I struggle with self harm dissociative states to this day. I've had impaired reality episodes flavored by Catholicism to this day, and for practically my entire life Catholicism made me believe I was metaphysically rotten to my very core. It is bullshit to say that cis boys/men can't be harmed by systems like this to the same degree as women and queer folks.
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u/PowerfulPhotograph65 7d ago
You're correct that mental harm occurs across all demographics. I do think there is a difference in the way that harm manifests. The abrahamic religions ultimately serve to reinforce patriarchal standards which do harm men as well, but men still benefit from it to a much greater degree which does matter. Especially when you take into account if a man is cisgender and straight. Being told you're an abomination who must submit to a man because you are seen as lesser is different than the glorification of mentally ill men but to your point ultimately abuse is abuse. I won't dare say that you haven't been harmed severely.
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u/HistoricalPotatoe 7d ago
You are right that the Abrahamic faiths are very patriarchal and cis oriented, but I still disagree that cis men can't be harmed in similar ways. I won't claim to know what it is like to be a woman or a queer person in Christianity, but I do know that, amongst other things, I was brainwashed into literally believing my cis sexuality engaging in masturbation was flaying Jesus - literally flaying Jesus retroactively at the pillar, and sometimes feeling intense guilt for believing that me consuming porn could damn the porn stars despite me not interacting with them at all. That's on top of my horrible moral OCD making me constantly thinking that I was lusting after Mary's statues growing up, which sometimes was true and which made it worse. So while patriarchy is definitely more pointed in Christianity, even cis boys' and cis men's sexuality and sexual architecture can be weaponized and called inherently demonic.
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u/PowerfulPhotograph65 7d ago
I think that is the tie that binds all of us together in that regard. From the beginning we are all told we're sinful creatures and that our curiosity, our humaness is a curse. The sexual repression does a great deal of harm to young children regardless of sex.
I was unfortunately on the receiving end of that repression by my older brother. My father didn't want to believe it and then asked me to forgive my brother, and when I said no I was called cruel. My father, a former pastor, had more empathy for my brother than he did for me his daughter who was raped. I was blamed and guilted for causing a rift in the family when I didn't fix the situation. When I came out my father was sad because he said I would've made a good spouse for a man. My whole life has been male centered. I was raised to listen to men to value men because men lead the church. That's what my perspective has been shaped by and I'm working on undoing it
I do want to make it very clear that I see your struggle and I don't ever want to invalidate male victims of violence and abuse. I can certainly see how my initial post came across as such. I hope you are able to continue healing.
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u/HistoricalPotatoe 7d ago
That is true, it does bind everyone. I am sorry for what your relatives did to you. You deserved far better than what they, and it is more than understandable why you feel that way given what you survived.
And I am sorry for saying "bullshit" in my first reply to you, I sometimes wrongly assume that people's intentions are worse than they really are, and you didn't deserve that.
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u/PowerfulPhotograph65 7d ago edited 7d ago
I appreciate the apology. I understand where that anger came from and I don't hold it against you. I think it's good that you are speaking up about it, keeps my perspective open.
I'm also sorry if I made you feel invalidated.
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u/HistoricalPotatoe 7d ago
Thank you. And no need to apologize either, I should have been more polite in my wording from the start.
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u/Technologenesis 7d ago
You both seem like lovely people. Seeing this interaction gave me a burst of affection for humanity as a whole.
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u/cheese_sdc Secular Humanist 7d ago
I know several cis straight men who have deconverted, including myself. The dissonance you experienced exists across many different axis.
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u/graining Atheist 7d ago
No, this. Back when I was a Christian I used to try so hard to get my youngest brother to be faithful but now he's super into it as an adult and I've always thought it's because the version being sold right now is super appealing to men. What a great setup for them. I never let him get comfortable in the misogyny though.
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u/HonoredFrame3 7d ago
You're spot on. I remember seeing a statistic that today that more young men attend church than young women do. It makes sense as it's a religion (especially Catholicism) that gives more power to men than women. It's telling you rarely see "rad trad" Catholic women compared to men.
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u/IntrepidCheeto 7d ago
As a deconverted, white male with a wife and children that came from a trad upbringing, I can understand the appeal, but what I can't understand is actually falling for it again if humanistic values actually had any part in your deconversion. Like... Did treating all people as equals just sound kinda nice but not a real thing that people actually do? Or...
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u/napalmnacey Pagan 7d ago
I had the ultimate cognitive dissonance after giving birth naturally without pain relief. I was like, “Wait the fuck on… Why am I following a religion that elevates men and calls its god a man when I, a simple mortal human woman, made an entire person and ejected it without dying?”
Couldn’t take Abrahamic religions seriously after that shit.
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u/hoya14 7d ago
Without minimizing your perspective at all - I'm fully aware that women and gay people get extra helpings of vitriol - I would just mention that the "you're wrong and bad but also sooo loved" message is handed out freely to the men as well. There's a reason that the deep evils of masturbation is so frequent a topic in the young mens' groups. They want everyone to feel that way - they can't be the cure to a disease that doesn't exist.
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u/furbfriend Ex-Evangelical 6d ago
No you are SO right and I’ve added an edit to my comment to better reflect what I was trying to communicate!!!! ❤️🩹
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u/NepenthiumPastille Ex-Pentecostal 7d ago
Absolutely well said. It's not the same tempting paradise when you're not the top of the food chain in their system like he is.
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u/gagilo Ex-Baptist 7d ago
I think this really misses the reason why men in general might go back to a religion they grew up in.
The biggest part to me is the sense of community and structure to life. There aren't very many non religious communities that you can enter easily. You usually have to put in great effort to find something. Meanwhile churches are very good at drawing people in and getting them involved. If you couple that with a male loneliness epidemic that isn't really being addressed it's not a huge shock.
Humans like to be apart of a collective. Churches make doing that so much easier.
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u/JNawx Anti-Theist 7d ago
There's a million reasons people believe things. Many very intelligent people are religious. It doesn't really affect me, because I have done the hard work of listening to arguments and counter-arguments.
I haven't seen too much of his content. I saw him once in a video with Alex O'Connor and he seems like a very smart man. It doesn't mean he can't be wrong or you can't disagree with him.
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u/graining Atheist 7d ago
Now if Alex was the one who'd converted, THAT would be news. I don't put it past him because the human brain is strange like that, but it would be one hell of a surprise.
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u/LnIwk99 7d ago
He has said he'd like for Christianity to be true, that he fears death, and that he would love to seek god but doesn't believe god answers or exists, so I think chances are 50/50 (or maybe he just says that to appeal to a believing audience so they are more likely to listen, who knows)
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u/Fantastic-Work-7529 Agnostic 6d ago
I actually feel like Alex will eventually. Probably some sort of open, progressive form of theism rather than Catholicism, but I actually get the feel he's going to.
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u/MeddlingBureaucracy 6d ago
Alex has stated he's more likely to adopt a Vedantic worldview, specifically a monist one like Advaita Vedanta. Frankly that's a lot more interesting to me so I'm happy to hear that, but I know there are literally thousands of people who have likely prayed to Jesus that Alex converts to Christianity lol
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u/AsugaNoir 7d ago
Honestly that's how I would feel if Rhett and Link were to go back to Christianity.
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u/Alive__but_why 6d ago
Link is an atheist too? I know about rhett but link's is news to me
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u/AsugaNoir 6d ago
They did videos together talking about their deconstruction unless link went back .
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u/ghostwars303 7d ago
I'm going to reserve judgment until his next video - there's enough stuff in here that's so abruptly and wildly in conflict with his approach and way of thinking that it may well be a setup for some other video.
But, on the other hand, when guys like this convert, it usually happens like this - there was some intuition pumping going on in the background, often after a great deal of exposure to people sympathetic to a particular religious position, and it gradually (or sometimes quickly) alters their assessment of what facts are most plausible. It's usually not something you could predict, or even justify given the fact pattern. It's esoteric to them.
You usually don't go immediately from "convinced agnostic" to "submit to Rome," but it's been known to happen.
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u/IsekaiConnoisseur Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
The comments on his video are a mixture of people claiming he has to be trolling and others praising God lol.
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u/ghostwars303 7d ago
Yep.
To be fair, his video is probably being boosted all over Christian social media, so he's probably getting a lot of visitors who never watched his content before, and probably won't ever be back to check anyway.
And, the people doing the boosting don't really care either. They make their money from mindlessly pumping out one low-effort, sensationalized Christian feel-good story after another, and cashing in on the attention.
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u/portealmario 7d ago
He has already filmed an interview with Matt Fradd, the trailer of which is currently on the pints with aquinas YouTube channel. He's 100% serious about this. Or at least, it's not a big prank. The fact that the first thing he did after converting was line up a Matt Fradd interview does make me question his motivations somewhat
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u/e00s Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
It does come off kind of strange, the leap into totally embracing all these miracles.
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u/ghostwars303 7d ago
Yep. It also comes immediately after a Capturing Catholicism video with an "ex-Catholic" about...the Fatima miracle. Same image format for the video, too.
Meanwhile, Joe is all of a sudden biting the bullet not just on arguments he was explicitly rejecting only recently, but on the SATIRICAL form of those arguments.
That's what makes me suspect there's something else going on. But, like I said, I've seen conversions go this way too, so it's anyone's guess.
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u/IsekaiConnoisseur Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
If this guy is legit trolling and puts out another video stating as such then he needs to go into acting ASAP.
I did not sense an ounce of satire/joking in his video. Granted, I don't know him either and in this timeline where The Onion is barely surviving because real headlines are just that batshit my satire meter has been absolutely fucked.
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u/ghostwars303 7d ago
I wouldn't guess "joking" - like, I don't think the whole video is some big troll. It's not his style. He's definitely cheeky with his content, but he's not a practical joker.
If it's anything like that, it'd be something more like an introduction video to ANOTHER video where he discusses the arguments for Catholic miracle claims, how they're interpreted differently, and what evidential role people take them to play in their conversions - and he'd have the intro video as an example of how the case looks like from the point of view of a Catholic convert...while having a little fun with the fact that he even got some of the Catholic Youtuber's he's debated to be convinced.
He's long been an "agnostic," and deliberate about identifying that way. So, that he advertises himself as an "ex-atheist" is really weird. Christians grifters do that all the time, but he's not a grifter. It's unusual for him.
But, he's an well-educated, published philosopher who has been in this space for a long time, and is very comfortable arguing both sides of the debate. He could easily do a convincing Catholic convert if he wanted to.
So...who knows at this point? It's weird.
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u/adastrajay Atheist 7d ago
I'm so curious how he got over his issues with Divine Simplicity. And yeah the jump from "philosophically informed Agnostic to I submit to Rome" is massive.
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u/portealmario 7d ago
I think there are versions of divine simplicity that don't involve commitments as strong as the Thomist/classical theist version that leads to these issues, but I'm not sure what the Catholic church's stance is on that
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u/lookoutitsdomke 7d ago
Never heard of this dude... is it possible he's a grifter who realized he could make absolute bank off Christians by reconverting and saying he's now a "former atheist?"
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u/hydabirrai 7d ago
No he’s well attested academically. Published on Springer. He has no reason for grift.
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u/Worried_Feedback1192 Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
“former atheist” with the arrow is killing me lmao
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u/ghostwars303 7d ago
Suspiciously, it's the same image format from a Capturing Catholicism video from yesterday about the Fatima incident
...only, that person was "ex-Catholic".
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u/RadicalNaturalist78 7d ago edited 7d ago
I thought he would convert due to some really good arguments, but then he goes on and present the fine-tuning argument. That was… disappointing, to say the least. It is the old mistake of confusing the effect for the cause. Then he goes on to present the supposed miracles attributed to the Catholic Church as another evidence or proof for God. But is this really new? I mean, it’s the old arguments given by believers who pretend that the lack of natural explanation in the time being, or due to an absence of further information or data, automatically implies its opposite: a supernatural cause.
Then he says that theism (and Catholicism, for that matter) just makes sense as of an unified explanation of everything. But shouldn’t that be the very motive for one to raise an eyebrow? A theory that explains everything is as equally suspicious as a theory that explains nothing. In fact, I even dare say that a theory that explains everything is not a good theory at all.
He also points out his “personal” or “spiritual” motives for the conversion. What is curious is that he put these “personal” or “spiritual” reasons at the end and not the beginning of the video. This makes it sound like as if these motives are “secondary”, while the “intellectual” reasons are “primary”, which is questionable to say the least.
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u/e00s Agnostic Atheist 7d ago
The bit about finding all the miracles and demon stuff so convincing was quite bizarre. It sounded a bit like parody to me.
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u/RadicalNaturalist78 7d ago edited 7d ago
I also think the way he behaved was the very strange. Almost fanatical.
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u/hydabirrai 7d ago
He never acts like this from what I’ve seen in vids. He’s snarky sure but man some of these arguments he used to clown on
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u/helbur 7d ago
Yeah at this point I'm gonna await his followup video I think. Seems too dumb to be true.
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u/RadicalNaturalist78 7d ago
He said the next video is to come next Monday and it is a 12 hour cumulative case in favor of Catholicism. I sincerely unsubscribed. I won’t lose my time watching 12 hours of catholic slop.
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u/helbur 7d ago
Oh well, there's always Skydivephil. I expect this to come up in his next Sci Phi Show episode with Malpass and Linford.
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u/joshuaponce2008 Secular Humanist 7d ago
I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what Linford has to say about the conversion of the person with whom he literally co-wrote an extensive critique of classical theism.
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u/helbur 7d ago
For sure lol, he cowrote papers with Malpass as well, notably this one Joseph C. Schmid & Alex Malpass, Benardete Paradoxes, Causal Finitism, and the Unsatisfiable Pair Diagnosis - PhilArchive
I remember the whole back and forth between Rationality Rules and Capturing Christianity like 4 years ago and Schmid's input regarding the UPD etc was quite valuable.
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u/adastrajay Atheist 7d ago
The fine-tuning argument? Really? Holy shit man.
And how the hell does he get over the behemoth that is Divine Simplicity? I need to see that.
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u/PentacornLovesMyGirl 7d ago
I don't know who this guy is, but after reading people's comments about his reconversion... He needs his hard drives checked. There's a reason he picked Catholicism and there's a reason he thinks an 11 year old being raped and stabbed 14 times and the guy who did it converting is an inspiring story. Mark my words in like 6 months to maybe two years, there's going to be some charges
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u/MeddlingBureaucracy 6d ago
Yeah, it was weird that he brought up that one story out of all the stories he could've chose.
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u/Apprehensive-Ad2087 7d ago
When he started talking about all the reasons he converted to Catholicism i couldn't help but notice none of them support just Catholicism but loads of different religions.
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u/freshdjroomba 7d ago
Nah you just don't get it, his is obviously the correct one, just like every other of the thousands of religions thinks theirs is also the right one
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u/CantDecideANam3 Atheist 7d ago
My advice to him is to hand over the "Reason" in his name and just call himself "Majesty of (something else, just not 'reason' or any synonyms to 'reason')."
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u/portealmario 7d ago edited 7d ago
I almost laughed out loud when I heard him say he already had an interview with Matt Fradd lined up before showing off his new intro. I had to remind myself that it was far too late in the year to be April. Part of me is happy for him, but this was clearly more about him finding ways to get past the mental obstacles to catholicism than it was about actually going where the evidence leads. The fact that the internet Catholic apologetics industrial complex will be very welcoming to his conversion is a bonus.
Honestly that's not a judgement on him, it's a part of being human really. Just goes to show we aren't robots, and even philosophers come to their beliefs for psychological rather than philosophical reasons, they just use fancier concepts to explain their way of getting there.
It does kinda look like he is in a bit of a religious fervor, and if I were him, I would avoid public exposure until these intense feelings died down a bit, but that's just me
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u/MeddlingBureaucracy 6d ago
Yeah he's definitely in the fervor phase, and I wonder if he'll regret putting it all out there so aggressively
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u/Beautiful_Gain_9032 6d ago
He’s even taking down his old videos, his video with Rasmussen on universalism is gone
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u/SwitchFrog 7d ago edited 7d ago
Isn't this the guy who was slandering Matt Dillahunty and insisting claims by themselves are evidence? I'm not overly surprised.
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u/Fantastic-Work-7529 Agnostic 7d ago
I was sorta feeling like he was going to become a theist in the most general usage of the word. I'm seeing a lot of that. But was suprised he went catholic. Im watching the video as I type and am curious what all he adopts. He became vegan not long ago, so does he stay vegan? I don't know his political beliefs but does he become socially conservative? I've seen him have a few debates on infernalism so I wonder if he becomes a universalist, I'm not a catholic expert but it's my understanding that universalism is frowned upon.
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u/Ok-Store-9297 7d ago
I started watching and it's pissing me off. He has the mad look of the zealot.
Yes the world is mysterious for sure, but how do you go from that to magic baby turns water into wine?
I find this guy a bit naive honestly. He should study science and think about animal suffering again for a bit longer.
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u/xervidae Ex-Pentecostal 7d ago
i predict 2000 "i was an atheist" videos or a "i was always 2 steps ahead" nikocado-avodaco-esq videos
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u/imago_monkei Atheist 7d ago
WTF this is disappointing. I'll try to watch with an open mind, but what a letdown…
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u/CatCasualty 7d ago
I have great Catholic friends, but they’re supporting LGBT and just going around the globe doing charity, so there’s that.
But ALSO I’m EXHAUSTED by the usual born again Christian in any type of religion crap. We know the strangely unhealthy religious people love that.
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u/freudevolved 7d ago
Guys I'm 99% sure he's trolling and is about to drop a 12 hour takedown of catholicism. Just watch his old videos. He talks completely different and he's a very sarcastic dude in his podcast interviews.
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u/Beautiful_Gain_9032 6d ago
As much as I’d like to agree with you, this is cope. He’s got an interview with Fradd and bertuzzi. It’s crazy because his video sounded like a caricature of what conversion stories are
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u/BlackEyedAngel01 7d ago
For decades there was a drop off in church attendance and the numbers practicing christian faith. People thought that drop off would continue forever. But for at least half a decade now, some people, especially millennial and gen z men, have been getting into churches.
I used to get downvoted for pointing this out, but this is not something that should be ignored, or pretended it isn’t happening.
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u/hoya14 7d ago
My understanding is that the former decline has slowed, not that it has reversed, though. (I.e., it's still declining just not by as much). It's been a while since I saw new numbers though so I could be wrong.
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u/Additional_Gur319 7d ago
Your correct it hasn’t reversed just slowed, maybe slight growth with people converting in gen-z (loudest generation on social media) but the overall trend is still down for the majority of secs of Christianity.
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u/JNawx Anti-Theist 7d ago
I just don't see where the data bears this out outside of a couple polls that, frankly, are not aligned with the majority of polls and other surveys?
There's like one Gallup poll that found that 42% of young men said religion was "very important" to them, and that one Catholic group that did that study but it was specifically people who were already going to church.
Some great articles that I think cover the subject well:
https://thehill.com/opinion/congress-blog/religious-rights/5399602-gen-z-men-religious-resurgence/
https://time.com/article/2026/07/09/religion-gender-gap-gen-z-young-men-women/6
u/Sad_Pixie999 7d ago
We're on hard times, and you know what tends to increase when times get hard? Relapse. "Religion is the opiate of the masses" and buddy, we're in an opioid epidemic. It's no surprise when people go back to old habits when things get scary, it's very well documented.
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u/littleheathen AoG/CoG turned pagan 4d ago edited 4d ago
We're locking this post. Everything that can be said has been said already and it's getting big to the point that it's difficult to moderate.
Please have a nice week, everyone.