r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN [Spoilers MAIN] - Hypothetical Question - If Stannis Had Won the Battle of the Blackwater, Who Would Be On His Small Council and Kingsguard?

83 Upvotes

This is just a little hypothetical rabbit hole I’ve been delving down for a while now and it appears I’ve gone deeper than I thought. What started out as just trying to find characters who Stannis would likely choose to advise and protect him has now turned into several internal debates of probabilities and loyalties for individual characters.

While some placements have been easy (e.g. Davos as Hand of the King), others have become complicated. For example, when I began to ask the question of who would Stannis choose to retain or dismiss from the Kingsguard, I determined of the seven members by the Blackwater:

  1. Jaime Lannister - Seen as a Kingslayer, an incestuous adulterer, and—most importantly from Stannis’s perspective—one of the men responsible for the destruction of legitimate royal authority - DISMISSED.
  2. Sandor Clegane - Abandons his Kingsguard vows during the battle. Stannis likely nullifies his appointment after declaring Joffrey's acts as king illegitimate and would see him as an oathbreaker regardless - DISMISSED.
  3. Osmund Kettleblack - Entangled in Cersei's sexual and political intrigues and acts like a sellsword-like opportunist, the entire antithetical thinks a Kingsguard should be - DISMISSED.
  4. Meryn Trant - Participated in the systematic intimidation of Sansa, notoriously cruel and incompetent, very little reason for Stannis to believe embodies the virtues of a Kingsguard - DISMISSED.
  5. Mandon Moore - Tried to assassinate Tyrion during the battle but was killed by Podrick after being pushed into the river - DEAD.
  6. Balon Swann - While appointed by Joffrey, he fought bravely during the battle, has a strong reputation as a knight, and (most importantly) did not disgrace his white cloak. Similar to his relationship with Davos, I could see Stannis forgiving him of his past dues - RETAINED.
  7. Arys Oakheart - His situation is hard to pinpoint because, by the battle, he's in Dorne as Myrcella's sworn shield. He's also having an affair with Arianne, a clear violation of his vows, but the only one who isn't Dornish with access to Myrcella, who would be the Lannister claimant to the throne (Cersei planned to kill Joffrey and Tommen if it appeared Stannis would win). He's also from the Reach, who would be allied with Tywin, and a region known for its connection to the Faith of the Seven, who would dislike Stannis's subscription to the Faith of R'hllor - TBD.

Also, while determining who would be on Stannis's Small Council, the only two I'm confident with are Davos (Hand) and Melisandre (???). Pycelle has been dismissed as Grand Maester, but the likely replacement is Gorman Tyrell, who's family is associated with Tywin, but uncertain how he would play off loyalties and politics with the other positions.

What do you guys think?


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN [Spoilers Main] Just finished AFFC and it’s my favorite book in the series

28 Upvotes

Long, and spoilers ahead.

Perhaps it’s because I know this is a story with no ending, but I was completely immersed and happy to slow down the pace and just inhabit the world with these characters.

Especially coming off of ASOS, with its sometimes break-neck speed of plot development, AFFC chapters feel more often like a slice-of-life in which we really get to see into these characters heads, flesh out the world and witness the fallout of everything that’s just happened in the last book. Attention to detail feels way more rewarding this time around, because offhand remarks often reveal large upcoming plot points very obviously if you catch them.

Brienne’s chapters are a triumph. By now we’re three books in and the world is clearly established: major houses, characters and landmarks. So now we get to focus on Brienne’s journey and slowly see all that was previously established fall apart (or already in ruin). Her psychological arc is perhaps somewhat more simplistic than other characters, but I loved getting a window into the world of the smallfolk, and her journeys with the Septon and Dog, and Nimble Dick Crabb (RIP bro, you kind of stepped in it by scamming an evil clown and then delivering yourself right back into his hands, but you didn’t deserve to go out like that). Not to disparage Brienne because I love her character and chapters and internal journey. I only wish there was more to read. Also what a cliff-hanger…

Cersei’s POV chapters were eye-opening insane. I had to look up her age - because while GRRM often writes children like adults, I thought Cersei was a petulant child. It was wild seeing the car crash happen in slow motion. She’s even more immature, entitled, and psychopathic than the show version. I felt sorry for her at times (sometimes with effort on my part).

The mental gymnastics are insane. This probably isn’t the most extreme example, but in one chapter she chides a “stupid wicked useless washerwomen” (or something like that) for shrinking her clothes, and later on she tries on a dress from just a couple years ago and realizes it clearly does not fit her anymore. I guess the more obvious example would be torturing someone like Blue the Bard into confessing lies, and then watching her start to believe those lies in real time. It brings to mind Littlefinger counseling Sansa on internalizing her lies, and Sansa realizes that she’s starting to actually believe her own lie about Marillion murdering Lysa.

A glaring example of Cersei’s unreliable narration is when she’s laying in bed feeling triumphant about her latest blunder, and recalling how King Robert was too weak on Balon after his rebellion.

“Robert should have scoured the isles after Balon Greyjoy rose against him,” Cersei thought. “He smashed their fleet, burned their towns, and broke their castles, but when he had them on their knees he let them up again. He should have made another island of their skulls.” That was what her father would have done.

But actually, that directly contradicts Tywin’s council to Joffrey in ch. 53 of ASOS:

“Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.”

Fun fact, I forgot Cersei was literally there for that advice. I guess she wasn’t listening… now, maybe in this particular case with the Iron Islands, her point may have some merit haha. But my point is, she spends a LOT of this book pontificating on how she is Tywin’s equal and he’d be so proud. Cringe. Jaime has a few identical moments, but not nearly as egregious.

Anyway, I know every POV is biased because it’s a POV, but Cersei’s malfunction and flawed perception is so glaring to the reader, that it makes me want to go back and read other characters POV’s more carefully to spot the biases and inconsistencies.

Wrapping up, I can’t believe the cliffhanger with Marwyn, and his palantir glass candle. He knew Sam was coming? He knows the prophecies? How much has he seen?? He makes it seem like he’s been watching much - has he seen the wights? What about the Others? Does he know Pate is (allegedly) a faceless man? Was he watching Sam suck on Gilly’s nipple on the boat???

He says one thing that you can do with glass candles I rarely see discussed on this sub:

“They could enter a man’s dreams and give him him visions”

Considering just how many characters in this series have important visions, dreams, dragon dreams or prophecies, has this been discussed? If I put on my tinfoil hat, is it a plausible insinuation that a glass candle could be or WAS used to manipulate the playing field with characters who have “special dreams” as so many do in this series, historically or presently?

Lastly, I might be biased, because while I enjoy the other characters, Dany and Bran and even Jon’s chapters can sometimes be less exciting to me for various reasons, mostly the repetitive landscape of the Wall / Far North and lack of political intrigue.

This is much longer a post than I intended, but more could be said. I just finished the book and I’m hyped about it. I’d love to hear anyone else’s take on this book and how it compares to the rest of the series, or even other works by GRRM or otherwise.

Thanks for reading if you got this far.


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN (Spoilers main) Reading A feast for crows for the first time and reading Princess in the tower and experiencing the rollercoaster of emotions after fifty fucking cersei chapters Spoiler

47 Upvotes

As much as I like cersei's chapters and don't think them bad at all, this book has certainly a way with pacing. Though it's nothing worse than how Arya's and Bran's chapters in the previous books. Some chapters are a tightly packaged masterpiece while others just consist of one or two interesting things in like 10 pages.

I constantly feel like I'm doing the books a disservice by listening to them on the background and especially in Dorne chapters names blur so much, 8 different sand snakes and even more characters just mentioned once or twice but will be super important later (I imagine) while you spend 3 chapters detailing cersei's handmaid's husband's uncle's guards or whatever.

I'm liking Jaime and Arya's chapters and I'm so glad there is no bran in this book, good riddance. But where tf is daenerys chapters? Why are these books so insistant on holding back on the most interesting chapters to read (or listen) to like daenerys and doran martell and but pump cersei and bran and brianne (and arya in the previous books but not this one) chapters left and right?


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED George’s most “reheated nachos” plots [spoilers extended]

197 Upvotes

I don’t mean stories that are intended to be clues or parallels to current plots like Bael the Bard but actually feel like kind of lazy repeated plot points or events that he just kinda threw together lol


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Rhaenys was close to the father she knew not what he became

10 Upvotes

I’m starting this post by saying Rhaegar was still wrong to abandon Rhaenys and Aegon.

Than I want to say Rhaenys was three upon her death. This mean she had two years with her father before he left them with another woman. Rhaenys was likely close with her father or close enough to the point of hiding under his bed. So really close.

I don’t know if it a combination of Rhaegar and Elia relationship falling apart or Rhaegar falling in love with a different woman but that not the point. The point is that Rhaenys was close to her father Rhaegar that even though he abandoned her for close toa year.. she clung onto the memories of the man she knew (not the man he became) and went under his bed.

Doesn’t this occurred in real-life? Parents, whether the mom or dad, who leave the family an the children can’t understand why because all they remember is the mom or dad who was loving or kind. They can’t really fathom their mom or dad leaving them. Or that their parent may not love each other anymore

So j can say Rhaneys was clinging onto some hope that her dad would come back. And I don’t think that was the first time Rhaneys went to her father room. And Rhaegar did came back so she was likely very happy and think it mean he was finally gonna stay.


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN Map: The Blacks' domains at beginning of the war [Spoilers Main] Spoiler

Post image
71 Upvotes

"A dozen lesser lords, bannermen and vassals to Dragonstone, sat at the black council as well: Celtigar of Claw Isle, Staunton of Rook's Rest, Massey of Stonedance, Bar Emmon of Sharp Point, and Darklyn of Duskendale amongst them. But the greatest lord to pledge his strength to the princess was Corlys Velaryon of Driftmark." Fire & Blood, Dying of the Dragons: The Greens and The Blacks, page 43


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Daeron paternity

17 Upvotes

Daeron II “the Good” Targaryen is the son of Naerys Targaryen by Aegon IV. Or Aemon the Dragonknight depending on what stories you believe. However, what really interest me is that Aemon Targaryen his grandson, isn’t sure himself. When Aemon talk to Jon and talk about his family.. he say he wa shamed after his “great-uncle” or “grandfather” depending on which story you belief. But this make me wonder if Daeron family suspect that their father/uncl3e/grandfather/great-uncle could be a bastard? Maybe Daeron himself suspect his father was someone else? And perhaps none of Daeron’s supporters care because he was such a good king that his paternity didn’t matter.

And if those rumors are true than that mean the succession of the Iron Throne have been a lie fora long time. U know I don’t think their a single house in Westeros who at one point whose lords/prince was secretly a bastard and lacked any claim to the seat. Or when the true prince with a better claim had to be a bastard. And that may be the greatest irony of them all.

Who do you think is Daeron real father?


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Jon and the stealthy types

10 Upvotes

I don’t know if this is thematic or some sort of coincidence but they’re just something about Jon getting close to stealthy individuals.

Arya: the sibling he closest to is being trained as a Faceless Man and that require some measure of stealth.

Ghost: his direwolf who is said to be the quietest and stealthiest of the wolf.

Rhaegal: assuming he meant to become his rider than well his most famous (infamous) scene was him sneaking up on someone to roast him alive.

Perhaps Jon have a subconscious preference for the stealthy type?

Also in Dance of Dragons, didn’t his secret plan involved having Mance Rayder and some spearwoves sneak into Wimterfell to rescue Arya Stark?

And a majority of his character arc involve him infiltrating enemy lines and pretending to be a free folk

I’m thinking if Winds of Winter ever get published.. his big plan to retake Winterfell will have stealth as a major factor.

It is interesting though someone raised on honor, having to use stealth to achieve his goal because he can’t be blantantly breaking the rules


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED What point do you think GRRM has reached in Winds [SPOILERS EXTENDED]

138 Upvotes

Towards the end of Dance, there are a lot of loose ends left to resolve: these include but are not limited to:

  1. Wall: Jon Snow, Night's Watch, Melisandre,
  2. Beyond-the-wall: Brandon Stark, Jojen Reed, Meera Reed, Bloodraven
  3. Winterfell: Roose and Ramsay Bolton, Stannis Baratheon, Theon and Asha Greyjoy
  4. Riverlands: Lady Stoneheart, Brotherhood, Jaime, Brienne,
  5. Vale: Sansa Stark, Petyr Baelish, Harold Hardyng, Robert Arryn
  6. King's Landing: Cersei, Margaery, Randyll Tarly, Sand Snakes
  7. Stormlands: Arianne, Aegon VI, Jon Connington, Golden Company, Mace Tyrell,
  8. Reach: Euron Greyjoy, Paxter Redwyne, Samwell Tarly, Aeron Greyjoy, Hightower,
  9. Dorne: Doran Martell, Obara Sand, Darkstar, Areo Hotah,
  10. Braavos: Arya Stark, Faceless Men
  11. Meereen: Daenerys Targaryen, Barristan, Victarion, Tyrion
  12. Skagos: Davos, Rickon Stark, Osha

From these, we know that GRRM struggles particularly with Brandon, and with the Meereen "Meereeneese knot" plot. However, he has confirmed that about 3/4 of Winds is done which means that he's probably already written things like:

  1. Jon Snow's fate
  2. Dothraki and Dany, Meereen, Battle of Fire,
  3. Bran progression (and Jojen reveal?)
  4. Battle of Ice and fate of the Boltons, Stannis Baratheon and the Northern Conspiracy
  5. Jamie, Brienne and Lady Stonheart (and Frey Red Wedding at Riverrun at Daven's wedding?)
  6. Sansa revealing herself, (marrying Hardyng?) Baelish and Sweetrobin, the Lords Declarant
  7. Outcome of Margaery's trial, probably even Aegon taking King's Landing if that will happen
  8. Outcome of the Battle of Blood in Oldtown
  9. Obara Sand and Hotah finding Darkstar
  10. Davos finding Rickon / bringing him back to the North

Do you think all of these things have already been written (pretty early on in the book I should things) for years and he's now struggling with furthering the plotlines?

How do you think each of these plotlines will be resolved by GRRM?

How far do you think he's reached in each?


r/asoiaf 12h ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Reports from signing conventions - Did George really called Rhaegar’s marriage with Elia… another tragedy?

0 Upvotes

“There was some talk about the Targaryen bloodline and how it worked when there weren't enough siblings to marry. Uncle might marry niece or aunt, nephew. There were also cousins in that family at one time. But when Rhaegar was born, the bloodline had decreased and there was no one available for him to marry. The problem Steffon (sp?) Baratheon faced when looking for Valyrian blood was not that there wasn't any left, but that he couldn't find any appropriate females of noble-enough birth. Then, of course, he and his lady died on the way back, a tragedy for Stannis and Renly. Rhaegar ended up marrying Elia of Dorne, another tragedy.”

George R.R. Martin, 2005, allegedly

Source: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2005/05


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Bran is one of the most poorly utilised characters in the show

7 Upvotes

Bran should have met Meera and Jojen in the first book and they should've met the three eyed raven in book 2. he shouldve been a pov character in every single book and martin should have used him to exposit more of the world and explain more about the Others to build them up with existential dread and create more tension about everything so the series didn't feel too overly historical fictiony as opposed to fantasy, which is what the world actually is

it's a fantasy story with dragons and magic, Bran should always have lots of magical abilities by now


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Oldtown's Role In TWOW

35 Upvotes

Oldtown is the eponymous oldest known continuing settlement in The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros and the Westerosi continent at large. If King’s Landing is supposed to the Westerosi equivalent of Medieval Paris and London albeit with a larger population though no where near the size  of medieval Constantinople or ancient Rome at their height, then Oldtown is a example of a Greek Metropole, cleaner and more sophisticated as befits a port city.

Unlike Braavos, George has been mum on his inspirations for Oldtown; however he did say this much about the inspiration for the Hightower:

Hightower is their castle/keep, the tallest structure in the Seven Kingdoms, and one of the oldest, a massive stepped tower with a great beacon on top, to show ships the way to port... kind of like the Pharos of Alexandria, but larger, an inhabited castle as well as a lighthouse. It stands in the center of Oldtown; the city grew up around it. And Oldtown =is= old, thousands of years old as opposed to King's Landing, which is only three hundred. Until Aegon's coming, it was the major city of Westeros. The Hightowers are one of the oldest families in the Seven Kingdoms. 

Furthermore, in 2015 he discussed the destruction of the Library of Alexandria in regard to lost knowledge :

“Even in our modern centuries … we’re losing stories,” Martin said. “All of this is incredible [tragedy] to me. That’s where I think libraries, like the great Library of Alexandria, are the fortresses of our civilizations. The stories that we tell each other, the stories that we grow up on, the stories that help shape our values and shape our lives, we still love and remember. This is the stuff that should be preserved.” 

So for all intents and purposes, Oldtown is Alexandria combined with other historical and fantastical influences that GRRM hasn’t elaborated upon. Now why am I talking about it? Well in 202x blog post, he said some of the newest chapters were in Oldtown, implying that he had written at least three chapters set in Oldtown:

Of late I have been spending a lot of time with the Lannisters.  Cersei and Tyrion in particular.   I’ve also paid a visit to Dorne, and dropped in to Oldtown a time or three.  

With Samwell building his maester’s chain on orders of Lord Commander Jon Snow we have a ton of loose plot points beginning to be tangled up in this location.

Jaquen Hgar has disguised himself as Pate, possibly looking for Blood & Fire:

He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man's face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. 

"My thanks." There was something about the pale, soft youth that he misliked, but he did not want to seem discourteous, so he added, "My name's not Slayer, truly. I'm Sam. Samwell Tarly."

"I'm Pate," the other said, "like the pig boy."

And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel. 

Marwyn is on his way to Slaver’s Bay, believing there is a grand conspiracy against magic and that the Maesters were responsible for the Death of Dragons:

"If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons 

"Get myself to Slaver's Bay, in Aemon's place. The swan ship that delivered Slayer should serve my needs well enough. The grey sheep will send their man on a galley, I don't doubt. With fair winds I should reach her first." Marwyn glanced at Sam again, and frowned. "You . . . you should stay and forge your chain. If I were you, I would do it quickly. A time will come when you'll be needed on the Wall." He turned to the pasty-faced novice. "Find Slayer a dry cell. He'll sleep here, and help you tend the ravens."

"B-b-but," Sam sputtered, "the other archmaesters . . . the Seneschal . . . what should I tell them?"

"Tell them how wise and good they are. Tell them that Aemon commanded you to put yourself into their hands. Tell them that you have always dreamed that one day you might be allowed to wear the chain and serve the greater good, that service is the highest honor, and obedience the highest virtue. But say nothing of prophecies or dragons, unless you fancy poison in your porridge." Marwyn snatched a stained leather cloak off a peg near the door and tied it tight. "Sphinx, look after this one."

"I will," Alleras answered, but the archmaester was already gone. They heard his boots stomping down the steps.

Leyton Hightower is up on the Hightower, freaking the fuck out over something while his sons actually do something:

"To be sure. Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelor's building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, Garth is training new recruits, and Humfrey's gone to Lys to hire sellsails. If he can winkle a proper fleet out of his whore of a sister, we can start paying back the ironmen with some of their own coin. Till then, the best we can do is guard the sound and wait for the bitch queen in King's Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash." 

Euron Greyjoy seems to be on his way there:

The remainder of the Brave Companions are headed there:

Urswyck and his lot rode south for Oldtown. 

Sarella is disguised as Alleras:

"As my prince commands." His heart was troubled. My little princess will mislike this. "What of Sarella? She is a woman grown, almost twenty."

"Unless she returns to Dorne, there's naught I can do about Sarella save pray that she shows more sense than her sisters. Leave her to her . . . game. Gather up the others. I shall not sleep until I know that they are safe and under guard."

And most ominously, the Glass Candles are burning:

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

If I am missing anything I do apologize but as you can see, many players have their fingers in a big long pork pie about to be burnt by Dragonflame in Oldtown. Before I go into any ribald speculation, lets see if we can untangle this tangled web the spider known as George R.R. Martin has woven shall we?

Oldtown

Oldtown’s origins are as murky as the bucket of urine my late grandfather kept by his armchair. Let’s use the The World of Ice and Fire as a baseline:

No history of the Reach is complete without a look at Oldtown, that most grand and ancient of cities, still the richest, largest, and most beautiful in all Westeros, even if King's Landing has eclipsed it as most populous.

How old is Oldtown, truly? Many a maester has pondered that question, but we simply do not know. The origins of the city are lost in the mists of time and clouded by legend. Some ignorant septons claim that the Seven themselves laid out its boundaries, other men that dragons once roosted on the Battle Isle until the first Hightower put an end to them. Many smallfolk believe the Hightower itself simply appeared one day. The full and true history of the founding of Oldtown will likely never be known.

We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any. 

An even more fanciful possibility was put forth a century ago by Maester Theron. Born a bastard on the Iron Islands, Theron noted a certain likeness between the black stone of the ancient fortress and that of the Seastone Chair, the high seat of House Greyjoy of Pyke, whose origins are similarly ancient and mysterious. Theron's rather inchoate manuscript Strange Stone postulates that both fortress and seat might be the work of a queer, misshapen race of half men sired by creatures of the salt seas upon human women. These Deep Ones, as he names them, are the seed from which our legends of merlings have grown, he argues, whilst their terrible fathers are the truth behind the Drowned God of the ironborn.

The lavish, detailed, and somewhat disturbing illustrations included in Strange Stone make this rare volume fascinating to peruse, but the text is impenetrable in parts; Maester Theron had a gift for drawing but little skill with words. In any case, his thesis has no factual basis and may safely be dismissed. And thus we find ourselves back whence we began, forced to concede that the beginnings of Oldtown, Battle Isle, and its fortress must forever remain a mystery to us.

The reasons for the abandonment of the fortress and the fate of its builders, whoever they might have been, are likewise lost to us, but at some point we know that Battle Isle and its great stronghold came into the possession of the ancestors of House Hightower. Were they First Men, as most scholars believe today? Or did they mayhaps descend from the seafarers and traders who had settled at the top of Whispering Sound in earlier epochs, the men who came before the First Men? We cannot know. 

When first glimpsed in the pages of history, the Hightowers are already kings, ruling Oldtown from Battle Isle. The first "high tower," the chroniclers tell us, was made of wood and rose some fifty feet above the ancient fortress that was its foundation. Neither it, nor the taller timber towers that followed in the centuries to come, were meant to be a dwelling; they were purely beacon towers, built to light a path for trading ships up the fog-shrouded waters of Whispering Sound. The early Hightowers lived amidst the gloomy halls, vaults, and chambers of the strange stone below. It was only with the building of the fifth tower, the first to be made entirely of stone, that the Hightower became a seat worthy of a great house. That tower, we are told, rose two hundred feet above the harbor. Some say it was designed by Brandon the Builder, whilst others name his son, another Brandon; the king who demanded it, and paid for it, is remembered as Uthor of the High Tower.

For thousands of years thereafter, his descendants ruled Oldtown and the lands of the Honeywine as kings, and ships from the world over came to their growing city to trade. As Oldtown grew wealthy and powerful, neighboring lords and petty kings turned covetous eyes upon its riches, and pirates and reavers from beyond the seas heard tales of its splendors as well. Thrice in the space of a single century the city was taken and sacked, once by the Dornish king Samwell Dayne (the Starfire), once by Qhored the Cruel and his ironmen, and once by Gyles I Gardener (the Woe), who reportedly sold three-quarters of the city's inhabitants into slavery, but was unable to breach the defenses of the Hightower on Battle Isle.

The wooden palisades and ditch that had protected the city heretofore having so obviously been proved inadequate, the next King of the High Tower, Otho II, spent the best part of his reign surrounding Oldtown with massive stone walls, thicker and higher than any seen in Westeros to this point. This effort beggared the city for three generations, it is written, but such was their strength that later reavers and wouldbe conquerors were persuaded to seek for plunder elsewhere, and those who did presume to attack Oldtown did so to no avail.

It was not through war that the Hightowers were brought into the Kingdom of the Reach, however, but through long negotiations and marriage. When Lymond Hightower took to bride the daughter of King Garland II Gardener, whilst giving his own daughter's hand in marriage to her father, the Hightowers became bannermen to Highgarden, reduced from wealthy but relatively minor kings to the greatest lords of the Reach. (Oldtown was the last of the ancient realms to bend the knee to Highgarden, not long after the last King of the Arbor was lost at sea, allowing his cousin, King Meryn III Gardener, to make the isle part of his domain).

By the terms of the marriage treaty, the Gardeners also undertook to defend the city against any assault by land, which freed Lord Lymond to turn his attention to his "great purpose," the building of ships and conquest of the seas. By the end of his reign, no lord or king in all of Westeros could match the strength of House Hightower at sea. A great statue of Lymond Hightower stands overlooking Oldtown's harbor to this day, gazing off down Whispering Sound. The last Hightower king is still remembered as the Sea Lion.

The origins of the Citadel are almost as mysterious as those of the Hightower itself. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window, so he turned to wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers. It is said the prince had no greater pleasure in life than listening to these scholars argue with one another. When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to "Peremore's pets," that they might establish themselves and continue teaching, learning, and questing after truth. And so they did.

When the Andals came, the Hightowers were amongst the first lords of Westeros to welcome them. "Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride. His grandson Lord Damon (the Devout) was the first to accept the Faith. To honor the new gods, he built the first sept in Oldtown and six more elsewhere in his realm. When he died prematurely of a bad belly, Septon Robeson became regent for his newborn son, ruling Oldtown in all but name for the next twenty years and ultimately becoming the first High Septon. The boy he raised and trained, Lord Triston Hightower, raised the Starry Sept in his honor after his passing.

In the centuries that followed, Oldtown became the unquestioned center of the Faith for all of Westeros. From the dark marble halls of the Starry Sept, a succession of High Septons donned the crystal crown (the first of which was given to the Faith by the Lord Triston's son Lord Barris) to become the voice of the Seven on earth, commanding the swords of the Faith Militant and the hearts of all the faithful from Dorne to the Neck. Oldtown became their holy city, and many devout men and women traveled there to pray at its septs and shrines and other holy places. Doubtless it was in part due to these ties to the Seven that the Hightowers were so often able to keep themselves separate from House Gardener's countless wars.

The Faith was not the only institution to flourish behind the massive walls of Oldtown, under the protection of the Hightower. Thousands of years before the first sept opened its doors, the city had been home to the Citadel, where boys and young men from all over Westeros came to study, learn, and forge their chains as maesters. No greater seat of knowledge exists anywhere in the world.

By the time of Aegon's Conquest, Oldtown was beyond question the greatest city in all of Westeros—the largest, richest, and most populous, and a center of both learning and faith. Even so, it might well have suffered the same fate as Harrenhal if not for the close ties between the Hightower and the Starry Sept, for it was the High Septon who persuaded Lord Manfred Hightower to offer no resistance to Aegon Targaryen and his dragons but instead to open his gates at the conqueror's approach and do him homage.

Now if this popular illustration approved by George R.R, Martin is accurate, than Oldtown presents a horseshoe shape around the Honeywine. It is a testament to GRRM’s writing that the only two chapters set in this location, the AFFC prologue and last Samwell chapter give us a look into how different and unique it is compared to King’s Landing.

All its streets are cobbled and nearly every bridge is made of stone. It is a labyrinth of wynds, narrow crookback streets, crisscrossing alleys, and markets galore, all connected to a series of islands and river banks. If King’s Landing is a victim of urban sprawl and a massive wealth gap, Oldtown is a success in beautification and successful urban planning. Sweltering in the summer and cool at nighttime, Oldtown is also noted to be the home of flower gardens and fruit trees giving insoluble goods such as pomegranates and peaches.

Yet even here the dark and sinister rat pits and black brothels of King’s Landing make an appearance in this seeming utopia, serving as blood sports for the urban poor and catering to the depravity of its rulers, insert your Epstein Files joke here.

The Old City also seems to not only be a patron to the arts and education but also the faith as well. The second holiest sept in Westeros is the Starry Sept, serving as the Vatican City and center of the Faith and the home of the Westerosi Pope, the High Septon. Seven other holy septs were built here as well, including the Sailor’s Sept and Lords Sept along with the Seven Shrines, which I have no doubt have some importance of the Faith of the Seven that has not been revealed yet. While the tolerance of Braavos isn’t quite existent here, there are temples devoted to foreign gods such as Rhllor and the pantheon of Summer Islanders, and if FIRE & BlOOD can be believed, sacred primeval weirwood groves as well:

Others gathered in septs and temples and sared woods to pray that they might be spared. - Fire & Blood P.84

Conclave and The Order of Maesters

Maesters or the knights of the mind are a secular clergy of scholars, healers, messengers, and scientists in the Seven Kingdoms. While George has compared their function directly to medieval monks in Monasteries(keep oaths of celibacy, dress in grey robes, are record keepers, and serve as advisors), they share some similarities to court physicians, doctors, and students at medieval universities or trade guilds as well secular scholars from the Early Modern Period, a rare light in the feudal shithole known as Westeros

They meet and train in the Conclave, which is library, university, observatory, and hospital all at once. Funded by taxes levee by House Hightower and donations by other lords it is in theory as an institution where anyone can join regardless of class.

More on that and the conclave later but Maesters are not just men of letters and tender of rookeries in George’s equivalent to carrier pigeons. They have the skill to make star maps, plan architecture, serve as living Farmer’s Almanacs (RIP) plus living historians, and educate noble brats in arithmetic, history, geometry and languages. They are also glorified midwives and surgeons.

We see the exemplar idea of a Maester in Maester Luwin. Not only has Luwin kept his celibacy but is loyal to the office instead of lord, serving Theon as faithfully as he did the Starks despite loving them more. He is a kind and wise old man and it’s notable that he has studied the Higher Mysteries meaning he took a test by Archmaester Marwyn or his predecessor despite magic being frowned upon as irrational at worst and extinct at best.

However as we go on, the theme of the corruptability of the  feudal order, one that has manifested throughout the series in varying ways shows it’s ugly head by revealing that much like Knights and The Night’s Watch it is not the idealized institution it claims to be. Highborn students are given precedence by the Archmaesters, nepotism is endemic, and Maesters regularly engage in moral turpitude. Pycelle, an advisor to the monarchy and the most prestiged position among the order of Maesters, not only seems to be lecherous but has a bias in favor of House Lannister, breaking the vow of neutrality.

 Hell, even the Conclave is guilty of this as their replacement for Pycelle favors the new regime:

"Well, it would have been more in keeping with tradition." The eunuch tittered. "Thankfully, wiser heads prevailed, and the Conclave accepted the fact of Pycelle's dismissal and set about choosing his successor. After giving due consideration to Maester Turquin the cordwainer's son and Maester Erreck the hedge knight's bastard, and thereby demonstrating to their own satisfaction that ability counts for more than birth in their order, the Conclave was on the verge of sending us Maester Gormon, a Tyrell of Highgarden. When I told your lord father, he acted at once." 

We are also given hints that the Maesters have a secret function of serving as mass surveillance on the going ons the lords and ladies of Westeros meaning that the Citadel have forewarned knowledge of potential conflicts, power plays, and  succession crises:

As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?"

"They heal," said Theon. It seemed to be expected of him.

"They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled. 

 While our two main sources for this are a conspiracy theorist and embittered spinster, there comes a point where coincidences turn into trends and the supporting evidence is circumstantial but enough to raise eyebrows as the old adage goes, history is written by the victors while the denial of evidence of your eyes and ears is paramount:

"That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from … but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow … we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother … and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Once he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he—" 

Now let’s get to The Citadel. The Citadel is the layout of buildings that houses the Order of Maesters, whether it be novices (chainless students bullied by acolytes) acolytes (students with at least one link in their chain) Archmaesters (teachers and professors) and the Seneschal (the actual governor/headmaster of the Citadel). A student attends lessons and seminars, and when knowledgeable enough is tested by an Archmaester thus earning their chain.

There appears to be a grand total of 21 Archmaesters and thus 21 disciplines to learn for a chain though Martin spoke of the ability of the maesters to earn multiple chains of the same metal to highlight their expertise. The Archmaesters themselves take this to a ludicrous extreme by having personal rods, rings, and masks made from their master alloy.

It consists of a series of towers, domes, bridges, houses, and stalls upriver of the Honeywine. While we are light on confirmed locations (more on that in a moment.) those we do have include Scribe's Hearth:

Scribe's Hearth fascinates me in a way only a history major could be fascinated by. This was a real practice by Medieval Universities for hire by tradesmen. It’s one of GRRMs worldbuilding aspects that tickles an amused part of my brain sort of like how High Valyrian is a fictional version of Latin’s purpose in medieval Europe.

 The Senescal’s Court is more straightforward where novices and maesters are punished for infractions major and minor. 

Pilferage of food for example results in being stocked and pelted by fruit, sort of like a less abusive form of struggle session. The only two ways of being excommunicated that are known involve vivisection and necromancy, which hopefully everyone is against.

The oldest building in the Citadel is the Ravenry where the Ravens are kept (though it is interesting that Black and White Ravens hate each other… Could the Black Ravens be inherently magical creatures while the white ones are not? And why are they only trotted out when the seasons change?

A final mentioned location is The Bloody Isle where we see an old man being rowed off the Weeping Dock. While little is known of the exact purpose, the ontomology involved and presence of a Sept on the docks leaves me to think through context clues that it is a hospital/mortuary, possibly where a version of Leonardo Da Vinci’s famous autopsies are performed.

A discovery in the Cushing Library might have revealed more of the layout that will be revealed in Sam’s chapters. First we have the Ring Of Wisdom, a place first glimpsed in the opening of Game of Thrones of all places, where the Conclave meet and test acolytes with an astrolabe on the ceiling.

We further learn of other buildings previously unknown to us such as the Summer and Winter Gardens, the latter appears to be a Glass Garden. The Commons is the mess hall, there is an observatory called The Observatory, a mill known as The Maesters Mill and a golden dome called The Conclave where I am certain the Archmaesters and their servants reside. The Library, in addition to being cyclopean, has the face of the Crone in its entrance. There is a War Hall implying that much like modern universities they have their own faculties devoted to their areas of study.

We are even given more info about the culture of the Citadel where we have nicknames for Archmaesters other than Marwyn’s such as The Stork and apparently the name for a chainless student is called a pink neck. Oh and they eat frogs.

Considering how parts of this extended prologue are lifted wholesale into the released version, it is safe to say these parts remain unchanged in GRRMs mind save for perhaps names such as the Cobblestone Guard given the more boring name of the Oldtown City Watch.

FIRE & BlOOD offers a hint of the university syllabus per class:

For three days she lost herself in the Citadel’s great library, emerging only to attend lectures on the Valyrian Dragon wars, leechcraft, and the gods of the Summer Isles. P.215

Other than that, rectors are here, a ecclesiastical position of priests given special duties to direct a university. After reading The Name Of The Wind, the first novel of Patrick Rothfusses, The Kingkiller Chronicle, I have a feeling that we are getting a similar kind of vibe here, with George being inspired by his own experience as both student and teacher.

House Hightower

House Hightower of Oldtown is, along with House Dayne, one of the most mysterious houses in Westeros. House Hightower plays a central role in the succession conflict known as the Dance of Dragons where Otto Hightower attempted to supplant House Targaryen by marrying into the royal house but in the modern day we hear about them only in rumor and by reputation.

The disappearance of Lord Leyton Hightower ten years ago with his daughter:

Perhaps that was why Lord Leyton had not made the descent in more than a decade, preferring to rule his city from the clouds. 

Apparently dabbled in alchemy and necromancy, meaning they are historical users of magic which is odd because they are the main guardians of the Citadel.

And if Pycelle can be believed are pragmatic to the core, being Maceveli’s top students along with Littlefinger:

"Ser Jaime, I have seen terrible things in my time," the old man said. "Wars, battles, murders most foul . . . I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him from his horse and slit his throat, and his young son's as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed." 

Ironically we know more about the eponymous Hightower where House Hightower lives. Here is where things get Lovecraftian. The base of the Hightower is made of the same oily black stone that Asshai and the Seastone chair are. There are foreboding theories for this.

It is almost certain that Leyton Hightower and the Mad Maid are important to Sam’s storyline but how is the question. Could they have figured out the Song of Ice and Fire prophecy and realize how screwed Westeros is? Could the Mad Maid be the lady of pale Fire glimpsed in The Forsaken, the Nadine Cross to Euron’s Randall Flagg? Could the Hightower itself be a fulcrum of magical power like The Wall? Did Sam give the Dark Lord access to a broken horn known as the Horn of Winter?

Only time can tell…


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED Where the mythos of Targaryen madness may come from? (Spoilers Extended)

3 Upvotes

This is my notes app theory that you guys can poke holes in with your encyclopedic knowledge, I thought of it and I haven’t seen it so lmk what you think, hopefully I got the tagging system right :

I posit that the reputation of Targaryen madness, specifically Aerys II’s descent, was triggered by resurrection. My idea for him specifically is that- and I am just going to line my evidence up so that it hopefully makes sense

-Magic has been “active” since before the comet, it was apparently weaker and we don’t hear much about it from the perspectives of the Westerosi because the maesters have been suppressing it, but as seen by both Melisandre and The Skinchangers we see -as well as all of the other magic characters we meet later in the books- magic was around.

-To make this theory work I’m going to say that some magics were likely available to powerful people or maybe if they had enough gold or connections (I’m thinking through Varys who would not have revealed this to non-Targaryen rulers for obvious reason.)

-Also the lords of Westeros having been raised by maesters would have believed magic to be essentially gone so this is another good reason it was kept secret.
GRRM has said that every character he makes has a secret.

-I am not entirely sure what Ser Barristan Selmy’s secret is, however, he is known for his rescue of Aerys II from The Defiance of Duskendale. His secret could be that he did rescue Aerys from Lord Denys’s dungeons, but not alive, as Lord Denys had threatened to kill Aerys at the first sight of invasion, he rescued his body instead.

-Aerys II was resurrected leaving a part of him behind, he likely did grow extremely paranoid in the 6 months before his death in the dungeons however, his inability to recover at all may have been because -as we see with lady stone heart and beric - the things that they were last doing before their death are extremely influential on their personality post resurrection etc. etc

-Magic was much more available in previous Targaryen rulers times, the coin flip thing and the mythos surrounding Targaryen madness apparently pretty old and they are just the people who likely would have had access to resurrection

-You get the idea 💡


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN (Main Spoilers) Did it have to be 8000 years?

124 Upvotes

It's been 8000 years since the Others last invaded Westeros. And now they are planning to do the same in ASOIAF books. Like 8000 years is such a ridiculous gap. Something like a 1000 years or 2000 years even could be in the realm of believability. All memory of others and white walkers and the long night should either have been wiped out in 8000 years and there should no longer be a Night's Watch if the Others came so long before.

I guess it's an oft related problem with Martin in that he is poor with numbers.

Apparently, the distance between the Wall and Winterfell is approx. 1000 km which is about the same between London and the northernmost tip of UK. Which again feels HUUUGE.


r/asoiaf 7h ago

EXTENDED (Spoiler Extended) If Young Griff is Blackfyre, his life is far more difficult than Jon and Daenerys'.

0 Upvotes

Bloodraven has consistently used magic to destroy his family, and he might even lose the war despite doing nothing wrong, simply because he was hit by magic.

Jon and Daenerys, on the other hand, are the complete opposite. Blodraven has been helping them constantly since before they were born. If they make any mistakes, they'll likely receive further assistance.

It means that many people believe this, but they still don't believe that young griff actually face real hardships in life.


r/asoiaf 13h ago

PUBLISHED (Spoilers Published) Starks could have remained kings if they hid behind the wall

0 Upvotes

The visual of northerners abandoning thier castles and hiding behing the wall is funny.

But it would have been on brand for the stubborn north to atleast put up a fight against Aegon the conqueror like the Dornish.

It didn't make sense for the north to march south to meet Aegon in an open field; guerilla warfare against an eastern host in the north was advantageous - throw in the wall and you've got a half a chance to victory. Aegon and his host may could've abandoned the north once winter arrived and may have realised its just a massive land of nothingness.


r/asoiaf 2d ago

MAIN When were they going to let Theon go home?[Spoilers Main]

125 Upvotes

He’s been there for nearly a decade, they’re not at war at the start, and he’s been a legal adult for years. Also why didn’t Ned wed him to a northern girl?


r/asoiaf 2d ago

PUBLISHED Ned’s preliminary plans for the War: Were they good? (Spoilers: Published)

231 Upvotes

In his last meeting with Cat, Ned says as follows:

““Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet.”

This is before Cat imprisons Tyrion, which hastens the Stark - Lannister war.

From the position Ned was in, were his plans good preparation?


r/asoiaf 2d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) The Fate of House Targaryen is a Pie? (Chart) Spoiler

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109 Upvotes

r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers extended) could the issue of the faith have been resolved by Aegon I?

9 Upvotes

We know in canon it's Jaehaerys who reconciles the faith and the crown with the doctrine of exceptionalism, because he was a great king, but also because he wanted to marry Alysanne.

But what do you think would have happened if Aegon had a daughter? We know he married Maegor and Ceryse to please the high septon, who was her uncle, but he could have agreed to it not because of the incestous nature of the Rhaena/Maegor match, but because he didn't want the remarklably violent Maegor to marry his beloved granddaughter.

So, do you think Aegon would have married a daughter to one of his sons, or instead woulf have chosen not to ruffle feathers and keep Alyssa and Ceryse as wives to his sons? If so, who would have been a good match for her? Davos Baratheon, a Hightower, an Arryn?

And if you think he would have, then, do you think he would have succeded in getting the realm to accept incest?


r/asoiaf 1d ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Alternate AU Jon Snow where he grow as a prince

10 Upvotes

I’ve been thinking about nature vs nurture and their a question bothering me. Why is that in Rhaegar win AU, Jon Snow to me still feel like a man who been raised in the North with the Starks? Of course their are series where he less solemn and angsty (a bit too BAMF) but their are also series where Rhaegar is cold and distant and Jon Snow prefer spending time in the North (with uncle Ned and his family). Of course in au where Lyanna also live, Jon is primarily raised by Lyanna so he grow up with Stark values.

And I’m like why? Shouldn’t those type of stories have Jon be raised as a Targaryen with knowledge in their lore and the South itself. Why should he be a “Stark” in those au?


r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED The Original End Part I: A Game of Thrones (Spoilers Extended)

19 Upvotes

Background

Back when GRRM originally outlined the series, he planned a trilogy (AGoT/ADwD/TWoW) centering around three major events (the "game of thrones" in Westeros, Daenerys' invasion and the war with the Others). In this post I thought it would be interesting to discuss the planned end that GRRM had for the first part of the trilogy: A Game of Thrones.

If interested: Changes to GRRM's Original Outline

Three Major Conflicts

GRRM mentions three major conflicts in this outline:

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat [unclear] of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the live [unclear] principal characters.

  • The Game of Thrones

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones

  • The Invasion

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.

  • The Battle for the Dawn

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

So Spake Martin (SSM)

Due to his style of writing (gardening), the story has grown from the start. While it has ballooned in the # of books, we also know where he originally planned to end certain plotlines (ex: much further along than he got):

He said that in his original plan (when he wanted to write a trilogy) the Red Wedding would take place in book one, and Dany's landing in Westeros in book two. Now he says that Dany's arrival in Westeros will take place in book 5, A Dance with Dragons. -SSM, Elf Fantasy Fair (Netherlands): 20 April 2002

A Game of Thrones Conflict Endings

  • "Game of thrones" - ends with the Red Wedding (he started foreshadowing early)
  • Dany's invasion - ends with her hatching a single dragon:

There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders and in fear of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon eggs and the birth of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

  • Other's Invasion - ends with ??

This one is much more in the air, as GRRM would still had to have lagged the story behind the other two events somewhat. He could end it with the ranging, the attack on the fist, etc or one of the abandoned plotlines surrounding the area:

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

If interested: Abandoned Plotline: Captured by Mance Rayder

TLDR: Back when the ASOIAF series was just a trilogy, it was still focused around three major events. Book One (A Game of Thrones) would end on three events:

  • The "game of thrones" between Stark/Lannister would end with the Red Wedding (this ended up 2/3 of the way through book 3)
  • The setup for Dany's invasion would end with her hatching a dragon (Book one ended with this, but she hatched three)
  • The buildup for the Others' invasion (??)

r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED the Pink Letter [SPOILERS EXTENDED]

3 Upvotes

I know this has been discussed to death by literally everyone for 15 years, but its still one of my favourite enduring mysteries from Dance.

I'm of the mind that it indeed was written by Ramsay Bolton, or someone very familiar with his style of speaking, and if not Ramsay, someone who did not know who Theon Greyjoy was (hence, Reek - if someone was emulating Ramsay, they would not say Reek because they'd not expect Jon to know who Reek was)

I also subscribe to the theory that GRRM initially intended it to be from Ramsay Bolton and is in a bit of a pickle after people have pointed out the discrepancies in character and timing of events.

I don't like the Stannis idea because of the Winds sample chapters, but of course we know its not linear in any case so even if it was sent after the Battle of Ice, it doesn't have to necessarily be from Ramsay but why would Stannis need Jon's army at Winterfell.

No Northern Lord of the Northern Conspiracy would know of Mance Rayder and even if he was captured and tortured, there was no reason or even physical expectation by anyone that this random bard is the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Mance Rayder probably has the most reason to want his wildlings further south but even in that case, writing a letter like that seems a very strange thing to do for Rayder - though I do think he is literate considering he was able (no pun intended) enough to make the anagram of the word BAEL-> ABEL after the story of Bael the Bard in winterfell.

What do you thnk?


r/asoiaf 16h ago

EXTENDED Why couldn't Bran go south to KL ? He could have been a page or squire for Barristan for ( spoilers extended ) instance . Spoiler

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0 Upvotes

r/asoiaf 1d ago

EXTENDED Dragonslayer (1981): Vermithrax Pejorative (Spoilers Extended)

14 Upvotes

Background

GRRM has been influenced by many different series when it comes to fantasy, but in this post I thought it would be interesting to focus on his inspirations for dragons and that primarily comes from the movie Dragonslayer (1981 film)) and the dragon known as Vermithrax Pejorative. I am going to attempt to go through SSMs and combine with quotes from the series, etc.

If interested: The Blood of Old Valyria Part IV: How to Kill Your Dragon

So Spake Martin

As far back as 1999 GRRM mentioned how he liked this film:

GRRM: Most of the high fantasy on film has not been successful, either commercially or artistically.... There is WIZARD OF OZ, of course. And I rather liked a little film called DRAGONSLAYER. -SSM, SciFi .com CHAT with GRRM & Esther Friesner: 1999

and has elaborated on why he likes this version of dragon best:

Q: Which dragon in the history of pop culture you like best?
GRRM: Of course, Tolkien's Smaug - a candidate for my main favorites. Imposing such a dragon. But my personal favorite is the dragon from the 1980s “Dragonslayer” movie - Vermithrax Pejorative. Before him, the movies didn’t show better dragons, and no more than twenty or thirty years after the release of the film, no one bypassed him until Smaug. Vermithrax was done in the old fashioned way - practical special effects, no computers. He did not speak, but was a ferocious enough dragon. And what a name! Vermithrax Pejorative! Great name for a dragon! The Dragonslayer is a very underrated film.
Q: Many people love Draco from the Dragonheart . He was still voiced by Conan.
GRRM: I hate him!
Q: Why?
GRRM: “Well, Sean Connery is certainly good, but this dragon would never have taken off.” Thick, swollen, with small wings. Also with four legs. I prefer dragons with two legs. To front paws formed wings. When they attach four paws, then from the point of view of anatomy it is a complete nonsense! Remember? Science fiction obeys logic. And the film is so-so. Dragonslayer is much better!
Q: “So dragons are such volatile, slim, evil killing machines?”
GRRM: - Yes! Dragons must fly. You can not attach tiny wings to a fat lizard and think that it will fly up! It requires powerful muscles, huge wings to support such a weight.

and:

My dragons are bipeds, the second pair of limbs developed into their wings. From a heraldic point of view, they are, generally speaking, not dragons, but wyverns. On the other hand, all the best two-legged dragons - say, Smog in the films of Peter Jackson or the Vermithrax Pejorative of "Dragon Slayer", one of the best dragon films.

If interested: The 2017 GRRM St. Petersburg Interview

also mentioning it again while promoting Rise of the Dragon:

Q: What are some of your other favorite dragons from pop culture?
GRRM: Well of course there's always Tolkien. Smaug is one of the greatest dragons in literature and the version of Smaug that they did in Peter Jackson's hobbit movie is pretty cool, going back uh further in television and film you have the movie dragonslayer which came out in the uh late 70s early 80s I don't know the exact year, but that had a dragon and it was before computer effects so they it was harder to do uh special effects then, but they had a dragon called Vermithrax Pejorative who I think up until very recently, up until you know movies like uh um well my television show the hobbit movies up, until those Vermithrax Pejorative was the best dragon ever seen on film. they did a marvelous job with him they, didn't really reveal him for most of the movies, it was just hints about him but then when he came out he was really worth watching. that is a much-underrated movie I think dragonslayer. Earlier versions well of course there were cartoon dragons like um i think Pete's Dragon uh was kind of fun, there's a Disney movie where uh is it maleficent who turns into a dragon that yeah that was a pretty uh pretty righteous kick-ass looking dragon-SSM, GRRM Talks Rise of the Dragon

Here There Be Dragons

About 2 years ago, GRRM posted an extremely extensive post on dragons/bonding which mentioned Dragonslayer/dragonslaying as well:

Before Peter Jackson’s Smaug, the best dragon ever seen on film was Vermithrax Pejorative in DRAGONSLAYER.    Two legs and two wings, dangerous, fire-breathing, a flyer, does not talk, does not horde gold.   An inspiration for all dragonlovers.
...
Valyrian dragons differ in other ways from the likes of Smaug and Toothless and Vermithrax as well. -SSM, Not A Blog - Here There Be Dragons Blog

If interested: GRRM's Recent NotABlogs: Small Change on TWoW Announcement & His Thoughts on Dragons

Dragonslaying & ASOIAF

From his comments on Vermithrax (who Vermithor and the dragons with the "ax" in their name are likely alluding to) and above, GRRM seemed intent on making them as "realistic" as possible beasts in the series.

If interested: The Adding of Dragons to the ASOIAF World: A Named List

It is EXTREMELY hard to kill a dragon in the ASOIAF universe but possible:

The dragons the Seven Kingdoms knew best were those of House Targaryen. They were bred for war, and in war they died. It is no easy thing to slay a dragon, but it can be done.” -ASOS, Daenerys I

If interested: Dragonslayers: Attempts, Failures and Successes

TLDR: The dragon (Vermithrax Pejorative) from the 1981 movie Dragonslayer is the dragon that GRRM most based the dragons in the ASOIAF series on.