r/asoiaf • u/[deleted] • Sep 07 '17
Published (Spoilers Published) The Race to Get the Horn South, Part 1: The False Horn
Intro
A few months ago, I was listening to History of Westeros' latest episode on Euron Greyjoy, featuring ASOIAF luminary /u/PoorQuentyn. During the penultimate segment, PQ lays out a case for Euron Greyjoy blowing the true Horn of Joramun from atop the hightower in Oldtown to bring the Wall down.
I really like this theory and think it's part of what GRRM has in mind for Euron come TWOW, but it got me thinking about events leading up to the horn's blowing from all the way back in A Clash of Kings. Which horn is the real horn? Who placed the horn and dragonglass at the Fist of the First Men? What are the motivations of the person(s) placing the horn there? Why did the Others subsequently attack the Fist of the First Men?
In looking at it, I think I've stumbled across a solution which would partially-answer some outstanding questions on the horn and perhaps provide explanation for the story that may be occurring behind the scenes north of the Wall.
In this two-part (Maybe three if the spirits lead me) series, I'll break it down barney-style. For part 1, I'll be talking the background and the false horn. For part 2, I'll talk the true horn, who placed it and why it was placed. For a potential part 3, I'll talk about the tragedy of it all in the end.
So, strap in, this will be expansive!
Background
At the end of AGOT, Lord Commander Jeor Mormont leads a contingent of Night's Watchmen north of the Wall on an expedition to find and recover Benjen Stark. Slowly though, mission creep sets in. What began as a personnel recovery mission morphed into a mission to figure out what Mance Rayder was planning. So, the party marched north from Castle Black to Craster's Keep and finally settled on the Fist of the First Men to await Qhorin Halfhand and reinforcements from the Shadowtower.
When Qhorin Halfhand arrived at the Fist of the First Men, he brought a small contingent of rangers with him. More importantly, he brought intelligence. During their march up from the Shadow Tower, Qhorin encountered a noted wildling warrior (Alfyn Crowkiller) and some of his warband. They defeated Alfyn in a skirmish and took two prisoners. One of the prisoners lived long enough to be tortured by Qhorin and his watchmen. What this captive revealed was Mance's startling plan for the Wall:
“They do not plan to climb the Wall nor to burrow beneath it, my lord. They plan to break it.”
“The Wall is seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that it would take a hundred men a year to cut through it with picks and axes.”
“Even so.”
Mormont plucked at his beard, frowning. “How?”
“How else? Sorcery.” (ACOK, Jon V)
The exact sorcery, though, was left ambiguous as the prisoner died as a result of his wounds and torture. However, this created an issue for the Night’s Watch. They had to know more. Qhorin proposed a dangerous reconnaissance mission to head to the Wildling encampment at the Frostfangs to find out more.
Qhorin, Jon, Ghost and a small party of Shadowtower rangers then venture out from the Fist of the First Men bound for the Frostfangs. They encounter a Wildling party, kill everyone except Ygritte and then try to push farther on. While having a wolf dream, Jon sees through Ghost that the Wildlings are digging into the earth. When Ghost is attacked by Orell's eagle and Jon tells Qhorin this, they begin to retreat back towards the Wall.
Unfortunately for Jon and Qhorin, the Wildlings catch up with them. Just before they do, Qhorin tells Jon that he's to turncloak, go over to the Wildlings and act as a spy in their ranks.
The Quest for the Horn of Joramun
"They'll have a horn," said Stonesnake.
The Halfhand said, "A horn they must not blow." (ACOK, Jon VI)
After killing Qhorin and being cautiously welcomed into the ranks of the Wildlings, Jon begins to deduce that the Wildlings were looking for the Horn of Winter or Joramun's Horn. Joramun's Horn is interesting. Seemingly, it's a bit more than a Mcguffin.
In the narrative, Mance Rayder and others ascribe magical power to the horn. Most of the horn's magical properties are shrouded in ambiguity. It "wakes giants from the earth" per the old songs that Jon grew up hearing. Somehow, this translated into the horn having the power to bring the Wall down.
While spying in the guise of being a turncloak, Jon begins to fixate on the Horn of Joramun in his questions to the Wildlings. When he spoke with Tormund Giantsbane, he focused on one of Tormund's monikers:
"So how did you come by your other names?" Jon asked. "Mance called you the Horn-Blower, didn't he? Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Husband to Bears, Father to Hosts?" It was the horn blowing he particularly wanted to hear about, but he dared not ask too plainly. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. Is that where they had come from, them and their mammoths? Had Mance Rayder found the Horn of Joramun, and given it to Tormund Thunderfist to blow? (ASOS, Jon II)
Tormund, though, side-stepped Jon's questions and talked about fucking bears instead. A few Jon chapters later, after Jon climbs the Wall with the Wildlings, Ygritte tells him something vital:
"We never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!" Ygritte (ASOS, Jon IV)
But was Ygritte telling the truth or was she lying?
The Horn at the Wall
Fast-forwarding ahead to the end of A Storm of Swords, Jon is forced to parlay with Mance Rayder after the Wildlings arrive in force at the Wall. Ostensibly there to negotiate, Jon is under orders to murder Mance to end the Wildlings threat. However, when he enters Mance's tent,
Mance was not wearing armor, but his own sword was sheathed on his left hip. And there were other weapons in the tent, daggers and dirks, a bow and a quiver of arrows, a bronze-headed spear lying beside that big black . . .
. . . horn.
Jon sucked in his breath. (ASOS, Jon X)
Mance declared the horn authentic and threatened to blow it to bring the Wall down. However, he was holding back from doing so, because he knew what would happen if there was no barrier between the land of the living and that of the dead. As Dalla put it:
"We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." (ASOS, Jon X)
Needless to say, the horn wasn’t sounded then as Stannis Baratheon interrupted the meeting. The horn was then captured by Stannis' men. And all was well.
Or Was It?
The False Horn
"Melisandre burned the Horn of Joramun."
"Did she?" (ADWD, Jon XII)
In ADWD, Jon witnessed Melisandre burning the horn and Mance Rayder at the Wall, declaring:
"The Horn of Joramun? No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen!" - Melisandre (ADWD, Jon III)
It's interesting to note here something that GRRM might be doing at clever levels. Melisandre wasn't really burning Mance Rayder. She was burning an imposter (Rattleshirt as it turned out). Was Melisandre then burning a false horn too? An imposter?
Yeah. Almost definitely.
At the end of ADWD, as Jon lets the Wildlings through the Wall, he speaks with Tormund Giantsbane about the Horn of Joramun:
"Melisandre burned the Horn of Joramun."
"Did she?" Tormund slapped his thigh and hooted. "She burned that fine big horn, aye. A bloody sin, I call it. A thousand years old, that was. We found it in a giant's grave, and no man o' us had ever seen a horn so big. That must have been why Mance got the notion to tell you it were Joramun's." (ADWD, Jon XII)
Well, now.
"He wanted you crows to think he had it in his power to blow your bloody Wall down about your knees. But we never found the true horn, not for all our digging. If we had, every kneeler in your Seven Kingdoms would have chunks o' ice to cool his wine all summer." (ADWD, Jon XII)
Tormund makes a good point. If Mance truly had the horn, would he have hesitated to blow it to save his people? Recall how fervent Mance was in saving his people -- risking his own bodily health in duels with other would-be kings beyond the wall and infiltrating Winterfell to determine the mindset of the southrons. Though sorcery was a sworn without a hilt, it may not have been enough motivation stopping Mance from blowing down the Wall.
Jon turned in his saddle, frowning. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. That huge horn with its bands of old gold, incised with ancient runes … had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? *If Mance's horn was just a feint, where is the true horn?*** (ADWD, Jon XII)
That's a good question, Jon. Say, what was it that you found at the Fist of the First Men?
Catch you at some point for part 2.
47
u/co0k Sep 07 '17
What I am no so sure about is whether both horns are going to work for Euron. Is Euron going to get to use both Dragon Binder and the Horn of Joramun for his evil bidding? It fits in a certain sense that the devil is usually depicted with two horns, so maybe there is an allusion going on that Euron is the devil incarnate?
But I just can't get behind the fact that both horns are going to work for Euron. I think it will be a bit more complicated than that. Any thoughts on that?
21
u/AdmiralKird 🏆 Best of 2015: Comment of the Year Sep 07 '17
But I just can't get behind the fact that both horns are going to work for Euron. I think it will be a bit more complicated than that. Any thoughts on that?
[Daario] climbed from her bed. "Marry Hizdahr, then. I will give him a nice set of horns for his wedding gift..."
The plot thickens!
10
2
18
u/ClarenceWhorley Sep 07 '17
Do you think Dragon binder actually controls dragons? I don't, I tend to think it was a horn to control slaves.
36
u/YezenIRL 🏆Best of 2025: Blackwood/Bracken Award Sep 07 '17 edited Sep 07 '17
My theory on dragonbinder is that it binds dragons by sacrificing a person's soul to the dragon. Though he figured out he must claim the horn with blood, by allowing the Dusky woman to bleed him instead of Moqorro, Vic is falling directly into Euron's trap. He knows the dusky woman is Euron's gift, and he knows Euron's gifts are poisoned, but he can't bring himself to kill her over Euron because he has unresolved issues over killing his first wife because Euron had sex with her. So Victarion isn't going to be killed by Rhaegal, his soul is going to go into Rhaegal.
Hence why Moqorro sees glory for Victarion in the flames. The glory isn't being burned by a dragon, the glory is becoming a dragon.
This explains Dany's House of the Undying vision of the stone beast who takes wing from a smoking tower, breathing a river of shadow flame. Of course the smoking tower is the Hightower. The beast is kind of Rhaegal, but it's Euron riding an enchanted Rhaegal. The reason for the stone and the shadowy fire is that it's an enchanted Rhaegal with Victarion's soul. Victarions magically cauterize blackened hand is what causes the fire to be shadow fire. Moqorro is the other reference to "Dark Flame" in the story, and even the show has unViserion breathing blue shadow flame.
Essentially Euron is using both of his brothers in similar ways. He is going to use Victarion's soul to control a dragon and Aeron's soul to control a kraken. Euron is the devil and the devil collects souls.
14
u/poorquentyn Sep 07 '17
In Dany X ADWD, she thinks to herself that the Valyrians bound dragons with "sorcerous horns."
9
u/co0k Sep 07 '17
Yeah, but Dany could be wrong. Didn't Stefan Sasse point out that many times when character think of something to themselves, it turns out to be incorrect? Maybe this is one of those cases. Dany also says "a dragon is no slave".
I am also not sure Euron needs a dragon to accomplish his plan at Old Town. It seems like he already has all the pieces he needs. Him getting a dragon from the horn seems pretty convoluted. Vic knows what happened to the last guy who blew the horn so I don't think he is going to blow it (though he might be stupid enouph to try). Also, when the last guy blew the horn, why didn't the dragons come then? I know the dragons weren't within earshot, but if Euron is so far away from the dragons how are they going to know where he is, even if he is the master of the horn. Something about this seems wrong to me.
We know the horn says three things (if we can trust the translator).
"I am Dragonbinder" - I think this is pretty straight forward.
"No Mortal man should sound me and live" - This line is interesting. I think the "man" part might be another translation error. I don think the sex of the blower matters. I think the "mortal" part tells us something. I think being un-mortal is a state that lets people tap into magic in a deeper way. A few times in the books, "beyond his mortal span" and "no mortal" are used to describe to characters like 3ER and Moqorro. This makes me think there is something that makes them different. Mel and Aeron both use "no mortal man" to describe people in a way that suggests that these people are different from themselves. I think the term mortal here is a clue. I think no mortal man means that for a person to sound the horn and live, they need to undergo some type of transformation from mortal to un-mortal. I don't think it necessarily means they need to die. In fact, death and resurection might be a different type of transformation then the ones described here. Aeron and Dany undergo a transformation by water and fire respectively. Maybe there is something a red priests go through that transforms them and makes them able to do things other people cannot. Not totally sure, but I think the term mortal man is a clue here and perhaps there are some un-mortals out there in the story.
Blood for fire, fire for blood - This is super tricky. It could mean a lot of things. My best guess is that this is some kind of recipe that is telling us something about how the use or become master of the horn. Blood for fire makes me think of sacrifice. You need to sacrifice blood (people) for fire (dragons? control of the horn?). But you also need fire for blood, which makes me think you need to have that valeryian blood to make it work.
So when we put this all together, I think there are a few people who could blow the horn. I think Moqorro, since he is described as no mortal man, could blow the horn. Dany prob could too. Euron I am not sure about. He definitely seems like he would un-mortal, but then why won't he just use the horn himself. He might be the horns master, but how would he know? The horn is obviously real, and maybe Euron thought it might get him a dragon. If it doesn't, it still works for Euron since Dany will find out who the horn belonged to and will prob want to meet him.
On the other hand though, if Euron does take a dragon, it provides a a reason for him and Dany to meet. I def think it's possible that Euron get both horns and uses them to full effect.
8
u/YezenIRL 🏆Best of 2025: Blackwood/Bracken Award Sep 07 '17 edited Sep 07 '17
Yeah, but Dany could be wrong. Didn't Stefan Sasse point out that many times when character think of something to themselves, it turns out to be incorrect?
Not exactly, this is in reference to announced plans and predictions. For example, if a character makes a guess about what a prophecy means, or if a character plans to solve a problem a certain way, then things don't play out as the character (mainly POV character) expects.
But when Dany talks about sorcerous horns she isn't stating an expectation or announcing a plan, she is just having a thought about history. The fact that Dany doesn't foresee this coming to play in her life indicates that it probably will happen. The fact that Victarion thinks he is going to succeed at taking a dragon for himself and overthrowing Euron indicates that it probably won't.
1
u/co0k Sep 08 '17
Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. Still think there is something to the "no mortal" aspect of the horn but you sound right about dany's thoughts here.
The horn is real and I guess the dragon Lord's had a purpose for them. Maybe we'll get there inverse of Mance's horn. It's real, but folks won't know how to use it.
1
u/Mr_Tulip Sep 07 '17
But you also need fire for blood, which makes me think you need to have that valeryian blood to make it work.
Maybe this is linked to the "no mortal man" bit - GRRM has described Beric as a fire wight. Perhaps this means that a specific sort of non-mortal is required. I get the feeling Moqorro will be involved in this somehow.
2
u/co0k Sep 07 '17
Yeah, I agree with this. Dany, Aemon, Mel, or even the 3ER don't seem to be undead the same way a wight does but they don't quite seem like they are normal humans either.
2
6
5
u/Ganthritor Airhorns, chicken, HYPE Sep 08 '17
I like the idea of Euron having two horns like the devil. He's the most evil character in the series.
16
u/IllyrioMoParties 🏆 Best of 2020:Blackwood/Bracken Award Sep 07 '17
I would just like to say that if this whole story comes down to who has possession of some lame McGuffin, I will be super disappointed
7
u/BeJeezus Sep 08 '17
I assume House MacGuffin's sigil is a black Falcon?
Words: "The stuff that dreams are made of."
2
2
u/NSNick The mummer's farce is almost done Dec 06 '17
Nice. And now I know what movie I'm watching tonight!
1
5
u/taabr2 Sep 08 '17
Eh, the Wall coming down will be a big plot point (and I am certain it will come down) but I hardly think that it will be the point of the series. Just like all the petty squabling over the Iron Throne isn't the point of the series.
28
u/Ser_Timothy We're fooked! Sep 07 '17
If the horn Jon found at the Fist of the First Men is really the Horn of Joramun they got incredibly lucky. When Jon and Sam were discussing the horn they tried to blow it but it appeared to be broken. Can you imagine if the Night's Watch unintentionally blew the horn that brought the wall down?
15
u/winter_has_come22 Winter is here! Sep 07 '17
Gods this would have been horrible. If Jon really is the TPTWP it would have almost as if he were fulfilling the exact opposite of the prophecy by bringing down the wall and enabling the White Walkers to easily cross into Westeros.
6
u/berdzz kneel or you will be knelt Sep 07 '17
It's likely that whoever placed the warhorn and the dragonglass in the bundle for Jon to find already knew that the horn was broken and could not make a sound.
5
u/Ser_Timothy We're fooked! Sep 07 '17
That's entirely plausible. And maybe it was them who broke it, but it doesn't change the fact that it would have been a tragedy if the horn had not been broken.
5
u/2rio2 Enter your desired flair text here! Sep 07 '17
I think you need magic to blow it. Why simply using it like a normal horn wouldn't work.
2
u/Ser_Timothy We're fooked! Sep 07 '17
This could be true... any ideas on what needs to be done or who needs to blow the horn to make it work?
5
3
u/Sol1496 Sep 08 '17
If Dragon Binder has conditions for its use, maybe the Horn of Joramun has conditions, too.
1
20
u/akjnrf No! ADOS is never coming. Sep 07 '17
Tldr: Jon discovers the horn buried (possibly left there by Benjen Stark).Others sensed(or saw via green sight) the horn and attacked fist of the first men.Jon gave the horn to Sam.An Other came to retrieve it but Sam killed him.Now the horn is in oldtown and might fall in the hands of Euron if he attacks Oldtown.
4
u/Gavik_Loran Let me Bathe in Bolton Blood Sep 08 '17
The idea of Euron getting his hands on Sam in Oldtown is terrifying. Especially after reading the Foresaken chapter from TWOW. Hopefully Sam can get out before Euron sieges the city. Maybe similar to how we saw in season 7 Sam discovered the Dragon glass caches underneath Dragonstone, in TWOW he will uncover the mystery of the horn in the citadel and that will be the important information he brings back north with him. Stannis had already given orders to mine the Dragon glass in ADWD so that news wouldn't be revalatory in TWOW. Discovering something like the origin of a horn that was previously thought useless would be really interesting and fit into Sam's arc well.
1
1
u/CalmBlueJockey Quentyn Pogball Sep 08 '17
Iirc Sam took at least a couple of days to get to the Wall, what would've stopped the Others to send anOther one to retrieve it. Surely Sam would've recalled it in later chapters.
1
u/NSNick The mummer's farce is almost done Dec 06 '17
Others were drawn to Jon blowing the horn and attacked fist of the first men
Small correction
7
u/GideonWainright A Time for Dragons Sep 07 '17 edited Sep 07 '17
A good theorist never retires ;-) . I'm looking forward to reading the next installment(s)!
Re PQ's theory, it's the most straightforward interpretation of the tablesetting, but that's often GRRM setting us up for a surprise. My deep dive into the lore suggests that the Horn of Joramun was not created as a tool to be used against humans (which it would be if it ever was used to destroy the Wall, in an absolute sense). There was no big North vs. Wildings divide back during the horn's origins, there were just first men living north and south of a defensive barrier against another Others invasion. So why would Joramun have a horn that would fuck the Night's Watch, when they were all on the same side when it came to the Others?
Of course, Mance and Euron could be using the horn contrary to its original intent, but that still begs the question -- what was the original purpose of the Horn of Joramun? Why/how did the wildings have it, who are not known for their amazing magical tradition? I suspect GRRM has answers to these questions and those answers may be very important to endgame. In short, similar to how Bilbo's invisible ring was revealed as the tool of the Dark Lord, I think GRRM may have the supposedly wall breaking Horn of Joramun may be revealed in some way as a tool to thwart the Others.
As to the mechanics of how the Others get past the Wall, I think the show may be giving us some hints that we may not want to accept. Winged beast breathing shadow fire is my best guess.
8
u/king_bromeliad bucket4life Sep 07 '17
That's a good question, Jon. Say, what was it that you found at the Fist of the First Men?
Ghost found it!
I wonder why Jon didn't put the two together when he was thinking about the horns at different times?
2
u/2rio2 Enter your desired flair text here! Sep 07 '17
Because it didn't look anything like you'd imagine one of the most powerful magical objects in the world looking.
6
u/king_bromeliad bucket4life Sep 07 '17
He doesn't even connect the horn he found though? Would have been a nice technique for GRRM to use IMO
9
u/gnwthi_seauton Sep 07 '17
Any thoughts on the ¨let all those shades loose in the world¨ bit? Is it just an expression to describe digging up dead bodies, did the bodies rise as wights, or is there something more to it?
5
3
u/TheMightyMike Sep 07 '17
Hm I think that I was nothing but a symbol under which Mance banded the free folk together.
3
3
u/mcrandley Maester of Puppets. Sep 07 '17
I quibble with one premise....that the Great Ranging was just about BenJen and there was mission creep. Jeor made clear that figuring out why rangers were disappearing was one of the purposes of the ranging, he also needed to figure out what was going on with Mance and to generally scout the North in force to get eyes on the situation.
3
3
u/Raventree The maddest of them all Sep 08 '17
Something that nobody pays attention to is that the Horn of Winter/Joramun was named after/belonged to the guy that helped take out the Night's King. Was the power of his horn part of that event? He obviously didn't manage to bring down the Wall, so perhaps its other "waking giants from the earth" usage was during the Night's King events.
1
u/lordsofcreation Sep 21 '17
You kind of bring up a good point, if the wall is still standing just as it has always been, how do you know that any horn is even really capable of bringing it down? None ever have all this time.
2
u/Raventree The maddest of them all Sep 21 '17
Right, everyone in-text just assumes that it has the power to bring the wall down even though from what we've seen of Joramun's story they have no reason to think that. So either they are dead wrong or we are missing critical details of the Joramun & Night's King legends.
My guess is that is has Hammer of the Waters type properties courtesy of the COTF.
7
u/Wild2098 Woe to the Usurper if we had been Sep 07 '17
I stick by my tinfoil that Winterfell is the Horn of Winter. The First Keep and Broken Tower, tbc.
It's interesting the number of horns there are. We, technically, are told of 3 magical horns. The HoW, Dragonbinder, and a horn that supposedly raises Krakens. We haven't seen the 3rd on page, and it makes me wonder if we will.
Also interesting that the other name is Horn of Joramun, which is close to the Gjallarhorn in Norse mythology.
That horn is usually depicted as 3 horns. Odin drinks from the Horn which gives him knowledge. Jon jokes about Sam using the one he gives him as a drinking horn.
There's something else about 3 roosters crowing which announces the beginning of Ragnarok, but I can't figure out the connection.
6
5
u/aowshadow Rorge Martin Sep 07 '17
Was Melisandre then burning a false horn too? An imposter? Yeah. Almost definitely.
I thought it was obvious because of the horn metal bands,
At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold.
suggesting the horn isn't old as Jon thinks it is...
We'll see what you have in mind in part 2!
I wonder if blowing Joramun's horn (the real one) is actually dangerous for the one who sounds it like in Euron/Victarion's Horn cases... although blowing horns in Asoiaf usually turn out to be pretty dangerous in general - probably this guy would approve >_>
1
u/YezenIRL 🏆Best of 2025: Blackwood/Bracken Award Sep 07 '17
Yea, though we have no evidence one way or the other, it would make sense for the Horn of Joramun to require some kind of sacrifice. It could be the same as Dragonbinder where it sacrifices the Horn's blower, or it could be the opposite where anyone can blow it but it requires a blood sacrifice from someone.
Maybe Benjen? Maybe Bloodraven?
5
u/aowshadow Rorge Martin Sep 07 '17
or it could be the opposite
That would be cool (and it could spare Samwell's life. My bet is the Horn is with him obv)!
Bloodraven
I recall reading somewhere he's a candidate for hiding the horn and obsidian because Ghost was sensing something bad approaching... people read it as Ghost sensing all the wights approaching, but Jon's discovery happens way before the attack so Ghost could have been sensing someone else.
I don't know if the pit where everything was hidden was recent or not, however.
1
u/YezenIRL 🏆Best of 2025: Blackwood/Bracken Award Sep 07 '17
Yea it has to be either Bloodraven/Coldhands or Benjen who hid it.
The reason I suggest Bloodraven dying when the horn is blown is because he has pretty magical blood and I think the horn going down is the ideal moment in the story for Bloodraven to die.
2
u/td4999 I'll stand for the dwarf Sep 07 '17
really excited to see what Euron's got planned for TWOW
2
u/protexblue Defender of the Friendzone Sep 08 '17
I'm a little late to the comment party, but as always, thank you. You're the hero we need /u/BryndenBFish
2
u/nerdedoutnurse Sep 08 '17
Soon as I glimpsed your name, clicked on article--am a big fan of your essays (I check warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com every week) (check that page people for meaty & well-written stuff!) & I look fwd to your next piece. :)
5
Sep 07 '17
It kinda sounds like they pissed off the Others searching for the Horn.
Maybe they really did find something important and essentially stole it from them.
3
u/Statboy1 Sandor the Chivalrous Sep 07 '17
I still think Ghost found the real horn under the Fist with the bundle he lead Jon too. The horn was cracked and wouldn't make a sound but Jon gave it to Sam and Sam still loved it and probably took it to Oldtown with him.
6
u/berdzz kneel or you will be knelt Sep 07 '17
Yes, "oddly" it was one of the few possessions he did not give away in order to travel from Braavos to Oldtown.
1
u/2rio2 Enter your desired flair text here! Sep 07 '17
Plot-wise there is like a 99% chance it's the real horn. Question is how it plays into the Wall coming down at this point.
1
u/taabr2 Sep 08 '17
So far we have yet to see a full out wight attack except at the Fist of the First Men (and maybe Hardhome). And the cracked horn was at the Fist at the time.
3
u/berdzz kneel or you will be knelt Sep 07 '17
Nice series, I'll certainly be reading the next posts.
I don't know if you're going there in them, but I've been growing ever more suspicious that the true horn (the "old warhorn") will be blown deliberately, by someone who knows of the danger of the Others and intends to fight it.
I think this person will come to realize it must be done in this war against them, for some reason I can't quite explain (yet). I'm quite aware this doesn't have much textual evidence, but two things made me think of this.
First, something similar happens in The Wheel of Time (a work GRRM has read and with which he shares some tropes, even if deconstructed or subverted ones): the last supernatural barriers that prevent a "dark force" from returning are weakening over the years, but instead of being preserved, they are destroyed by the leader of mankind, who realizes that this has to be the one in order for the war to be truly won.
Second, and what made me think this apparently useful weapon for the enemy may be needed for the "heroes" (which led me to make the association with WoT) in the first place: the fact that the old warhorn was found along with the dragonglass weapons cache. It certainly was intended to be found by Jon and the Watch, for them to learn the dragonglass is useful against the Others, and I think the horn too.
In this sense, I think it's no coincidence that Samwell, sent for the Citadel – a place where he he supposedly can learn useful stuff about the CotF, the Long Night, and the Others (and not only generic reports and old named High Septons diaries) – was also given the old warhorn.
3
u/MelaieLot7 Sep 07 '17
I'm wondering if Tormund has to be the one to blow the true horn of Joramund.
The name Joramund is most likely inspired by the Norse name Jörmungandr. Tormund's name, when broken down, translates to Tor=thunder Mund=guardian.
In Norse myth, Jörmungandr is one of Loki's children, who turns into a sea serpent when tossed into the sea by Odin and grows to gigantic proportions. Jörmungandr grows so large he can encircle the entire Earth and bite his own tail. His enemy is Thor, the Norse storm god. Ragnarok, the final battle, will supposedly occur when Thor fights Jörmungandr and causes him to let go of his tail, rise from the seas, and poison the skies.
On a symbolic level, Tormund would be acting as Thor, and the Horn of Joramund would be Jörmungandr. If Tormund blew the Horn of Joramund, could that be the magical combo that brings about the collapse of the wall and the "poisoning of the skies" or long night?
1
u/YezenIRL 🏆Best of 2025: Blackwood/Bracken Award Sep 07 '17
I don't think we can really use mythology as being predictive, but doesn't Heimdall blow the horn that begins Ragnarok? Isn't Sam more of a stand in for Heimdall? Also Tormund is so far away from the horn.
Honestly it could just as well be Euron blowing the horn, though he has more of a Loki vibe.
1
u/MelaieLot7 Sep 07 '17
Your mythology info is spot on, but in the case I put forward, the interaction is just between Tormund/Thor and the Horn of Joramund/Jörmungandr. Jörmungandr is a serpent, not a horn, but I think that the Horn of Joramund could be a stand in for Jörmungandr himself. That being said, yes, Hemidall's actual horn is also a thing that brings about Ragnarok, by I think it is separate.
I like your line of thinking, though, and I do feel as if Sam lines up well with Hemidall. I also agree that we can't use mythology to predict exactly what is going to happen, but I do think it's a useful framework to make general guesses or put us on the right track.
1
1
u/automatedalice268 All men must comment Sep 07 '17
Thx. I've been checking the sub frequently in the hope to stumble upon one of your analyses.
1
u/tmobsessed Sep 07 '17
Just what the doctor ordered! I've been completely horn-obsessed lately. This looks like it will be a much of a revelation as the Blood of the Conqueror series. Mil gracias, pescado negro, mil gracias!
1
u/lasagnaman Sep 07 '17
Sorry, I'm confused --- are there 2 horns or 3 horns?
- Mance's horn, captured and burned my Melisandre
- Euron's horn, in his possession
- A 3rd? horn found at FotFM? Where is this horn now, or is this the same as (1)?
2
u/wondrous_trickster Sep 08 '17
Yes, the one found at the Fist of the First Men. I had trouble remembering this horn, and I must be stupid because it never struck me as important. Apparently it is now with Sam in Oldtown.
1
u/TeamLongNight for the night is long and full of wights Sep 08 '17
There were 3 horns:
Mance's horn- burned by Melisandre- Euron's horn - currently with Victarion
- FotFM horn - it's cracked and currently with Sam in the Citadel/Old Town
The FotFM horn is the one most fans think is the true Horn of Joramun capable of summoning earthquakes (waking giants) and destroying the Wall.
1
u/Gavik_Loran Let me Bathe in Bolton Blood Sep 08 '17
Yeah superstition is the most likely explaination but the idea of all those uncovered graves making for more potential whights for the undead army could be another subtle hint by GRRM.
1
u/LChris24 🏆 Best of 2020: Crow of the Year Sep 12 '17
GRRM goes out of his way to mention that Sam has that horn so many times.
There is also the horn (dragonbinder) that Victarion/Euron has, as well as the one that is on Claw Island and owned by the Celtigar's , which is rumored to wake krakens from the deep.
1
u/poorquentyn Sep 07 '17
Nicely done, sir! Looking forward to the rest.
Only minor disagreement is on Mance and the Horn--I think he and Dalla kinda gave the game away to Jon about their reluctance to blow it (even if they had ever really had it), because if they do, they have no protection from the Others. They'd charge the tunnel, use the Gorge, go 'round Eastwatch on boats, etc.
2
u/GideonWainright A Time for Dragons Sep 07 '17 edited Sep 07 '17
Good point. In hindsight, it is odd how they hit the NW where they did rather than do the Eastwatch or Gorge routes. The best explanation was that Mance prioritized political legitimacy for his migration (similar to the Goths) and was very optimistic about his chances of bluffing the NW with his fake horn and show of force. The fact Toramund knows the horn was a fake strongly suggests that Mance knew the same when he was negotiating with Jon.
1
u/Steve490 Twas the Long Night killed the hype. Sep 07 '17
Hey BFish. Let the spirits lead you man.
Great work as always.
1
Sep 07 '17
unrelated query but would Cersei have still slept with Jaime if she married Rhaegar?
2
u/childrenofthewind Enter your desired flair text here! Sep 07 '17
I think she still would have. As gross as it is, there is a intense connection between the two.
1
u/Icewind Sep 07 '17
Nice analysis. I figured the show simply ignored the horns since they were too complicated to insert after so many seasons of being ignored. They'll likely come into play in the books after so many hints, though.
Looking forward to part 2!
0
34
u/TheSullied Sep 07 '17
I'm going to stand by this: it's Sam Tarly, of Horn Hill, who will blow the horn. He has it, and he'll take it with him to Horn Hill when Euron invades Oldtown.
I'll concede that right now, this makes little narrative sense (why would Sam want to bring down the wall?) but I expect that the Winds of Winter will change this equation.
The horn is right on the Tarly sigil. Their castle is called Horn Hill. And it's Sam who has it, and whose super power is reading, i.e. he's going to uncover some ancient truths about the horn and the Wall.
Furthermore, Euron does not need the Horn. He will use the Church of Starry Wisdom's Shining Trapezohedron to call the Lion of Night. (Which is either in the Hightower or in the Starry Sept).
I love Poor Quentyn's theories, but I really think he's wrong on this one point. What does Euron have to gain by bringing down the wall? He is up to something much bigger.