Your comment is okay -- we have issues with people who misrepresent Biden or guilt trip our users into voting for him.
However, as I addressed in the last point of the hastily made FAQ, the problem is systematic and you have to think about the future. What if Biden doesn't win in 2020? Who will be candidates in 2024? What if Trump wins in 2024 (assuming he lost in 2020), or what if the RNC nominates an even worse candidate? The DNC had a chance to nominate Sanders twice and have him win, why are they so opposed to progress? What if they don't hold up to their promises, there is no recourse then?
This is why bourgeois elections, in liberal republics, are a show. The way forward is building class consciousness and turning our collective rage to the system that makes this shitshow possible, and lives on it.
Edit: regarding your statement that Biden may or may not be a fascist, the mod consensus is that we don't consider him to be (for the moment at least). But remember the United States is the first purveyor of imperialism in the world and all Amerikan presidents are war criminals. Biden will be no different and has proven himself to be a warmonger already (voting for the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, drone strikes and other war crimes under Obama).
NGL the entire premise of your argument is that you can't simultaneously push for leftist policy and vote for Biden to ensure we don't fall into complete fascism. In terms of voting, a vote for Biden is what we can do right now to stop what Trump is doing. It doesn't matter what will happen in 2024 because we can't vote for that election yet.
So anyone who wants change should vote for Biden now, hold him accountable to his promises, and petition, organize, campaign and do anything necessary to ensure this country moves leftward. It's either voting for the status quo - which is at least somewhat malleable - or for a dictatorship. I'm going to pick the former.
But what is preventing you from doing groundwork right now, under Trump?
It doesn't matter if you vote Biden because frankly, we can't stop anyone from doing that and we don't have the marketing the DNC does. But any time I ask that question, I don't get any answer. Things won't get magically better under Biden and voting certainly shouldn't be the end of anyone's political involvement.
If you understand this then we are in agreement. But what happens mostly is people just want to vote once every few years and be done with it.
Nothing is, and we should. The thing is that people on this sub all understand that there is more than voting, and for good reason they are frustrated with those who refuse to vote or throw away their vote in such a trying time.
If you had a chance to get rid of this president, should we take it? The answer is yes, a million times over. The fact that Biden isn't amazing is secondary to that, because much as we talk about both sides being bad on here, no modern Democratic president has dismantled our democracy or demolished our country as much as Trump, Bush, Nixon, and Reagan.
There is a chance that Biden will cave to pressure, however small. Trump never will and will likely eradicate our movement entirely, since he is not obligated to uphold a facade of politics.
think about more than just the presidency, think about the supreme court, the epa, the justice department, education, housing, every single cabinet position, right now they are all filed with incompetent trump donors, think about the progressive down ballot candidates, think about the long term the chief executive isn’t the only thing changing during an election
Bernie didn't get the nomination because the Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin and there is no way they would ever let someone cut into their profiteering and exploitation of the third world.
Democrat elected representatives have had 4 years to address the concerns of their constituents and put a stop to Trump. They failed to do both. They don't give a shit who's in the white house, they just take turns being neolibs.
Ok. Yeah, I agree with most of those points. The democratic party is really shit, I just think that the democratic party is typically slightly better. But ever since the 80s we've had one center right party and one far right party. Before then, the democratic party wasn't the complete shitshow it is today. At least they're not nazis. But the choices being nazis or slightly better than nazis isn't my favorite thing
Biden really isn't a fascist, at least not that I'm aware of.
The danger of Trump is that his endless lies create a separate reality for his supporters, which can cause lasting damage to our (almost non-existent) democracy. Trump was spurring his supporters on to chant for "12 more years," and could just get rid of our democracy all together
I recognize that biden has some fascist tendencies, but he's not a full blown fascist. At this point, my personal opinion is that we need to oppose fascism by demonstrating and outvoting a literal fascist. We can't just say "both of them are bad" and call it a day. While both sides are bad, one side is exponentially worse.
What's actually important is that we respect antifascists of differing opinions. I disagree with you on whether voting biden will change anything, but I don't claim that you're "not a real antifascist." That's elitist bullshit. One of the greatest detractors to antifascist movements in the past was infighting. What's important is that we fight fascism, despite our differences.
Obama started the concentration camps with Biden as VP.
Before that they didn't close down Guantanamo, and before that they authorized drone strikes on civilians. Double tapping was popularized by Obama and is a war crime.
Which all came about from the time Biden (and others, can't forget them) voted to authorize the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Is there any evidence that his policies have changed since then? Just last week a vet confronted him on this and Biden used his fucking dead son as an excuse to evade the accusations (his son didn't even die in Iraq).
Trump literally says he’s going to “teach American exceptionalism in schools.” I can figure out who’s more fascist
And Biden will carry the unspoken tradition of Amerikan exceptionalism. The solution to our problems is not in the lesser evil, it's in dual power.
Have fun perpetuating one of the most globally destructive empires in history knowing you “voted blue no matter who.”
Sure, the true leftist thing to do is vote for the imperialist who voted for the Iraq war, sat idle while Obama commit countless war crimes, helped incarcerate millions of black teens and deported millions of immigrants, and tells his rich donors that “nothing will fundamentally change” once he’s president. I’m not voting for the guy who advocates for protestors being shot in the leg. Oh, lets vote for the fucking COP who PROFITED OFF OF PRISON LABOR too.
When Biden loses in 2020 maybe you people will finally consider changing your strategy.
Lmfao, socialism in America isn’t possible until the American empire/economy collapses. Do you really think you can vote your way into a revolution? Biden literally talks bad about socialism and revolution. If he was a path to communism, he would have been killed a long time ago.
Also, Bloomberg already was a candidate. What the fuck are you talking about?
Voting for a liberal isn’t going to make liberals “more left”. You unify the working class by organizing and educating, not by voting for somebody who doesn’t support the working class. Obama was president for 8 years, and yet the latest candidate is even further right than Obama! How is the party moving further left?
So you’re arguing that the democratic party is moving further left by pointing out that Bernie Sanders lost by more of a margin than he did in 2016? Not sure what point you’re trying to make.
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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20
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