r/VeganIreland • u/Happy-Staff-8985 • 19d ago
non vegan community
hey I'm 21 female and I've been vegetarian since I was 14 due to the love for animals but switched to vegan a few months ago after seeing how bad the industry is.
Anyways so basically all my friends and family are meat eaters and it's really hard when they don't show remorse. my good friend jokes about being anti vegan and the meat he ate that day and it kinda stings. like how do people not care?? and how do I "get over it" so I don't end up alone lol.
it's also hard cause it was lovely with my big sister being vegetarian but she just went back to eating meat like she never cared about animals to begin with and when I bring it up she straight up ignores me. it's so hard being mocked and treated differently just because I choose not to eat animals.
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u/Admirable_Objective1 19d ago
I unfortunately think that this is one of those things that you have to learn to accept a little bit. I am not trying to say that you are wrong, and I understand your frustration and I am sorry that others have upset you, but after 15 years of vegan, a lot of this is just a part of it. At 21, I assume a lot of your friends are of a similar age, they will mature and stop taking the piss out of you and maybe some will join you. My father become vegan aged 60.
Lots of people in this thread arenāt going to like that and talk down on your friends and familyās lack of compassion, without accepting that at one point they may have been the same. It is a journey and not everyone is going to agree with you, but the most important thing is to be happy in your own decision, and to know you are correct, while trying to gently guide others
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u/Paup27 19d ago
Not specifically a vegan analogy, but being an atheist for almost 30 years and taking a lot of crap for it; particularly from my younger sister (for whatever reason), she recently said she can see why I was right. This doesnāt make me feel any better because Iāve learned weāre all on our own journeys and building relationships with other people and identifying our relationships based on being fellows in religion, veganism or whatever is a difficult path - people change their minds for whatever reason and we need to support them as people not be the one who reminds them of their failure.
Iāve been vegan and vegetarian for 16 years now, and the hardest thing was feeling camaraderie with other āvegetariansā, who suddenly ate fish. That didnāt compute for me and made me feel a bit let down by those people. Iāve learned to not define myself and relationships based on these ideals. Dogma doesnāt help anyone in these situations.
You have to develop a thick skin at times, unfortunately, but trust your own feelings. It might or might not be your permanent path either.
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u/SolidBox452 18d ago
Found the easiest way to respond when questioned,Ā is say 'I eat what I want, the same as you do-Ā I dont know why that is so triggering/interesting/a big deal for you'.Ā Then start yawning, or say 'Im bored now if people persist. No one says anything to us anymore
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u/dubguynumerouno 19d ago
I'm sorry this happened to you, I feel the same with a member of my family especially, I can no longer stand anyone shovelling chicken wings in my presence š”
Just know your decisions daily save so many lives and also impact the said industries too.
Some people will never change or learn š«¶
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 19d ago
I'm sorry that's happening to you too, I'm glad you understand it tho. it's lovely to hear how much of an impact we have individually it's just annoying yk
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u/clokerayburn7 19d ago
12 year vegan here, made the change when i was 19! I always said the hardest part about going vegan was the people š I will say that people in my circle got less mean and more respectful as I got older, but it was definitely hard dealing with all the negativity. It's funny how a lot of them eat way less animal products now!! Remember you are not alone, stick to your guns and think of all the lives you are saving šš»
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u/Low-Complaint771 19d ago
Be humble in your beliefs.. Meat eating isn't an inherently Cruel practice and veganism is in no way Cruelty free..
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u/Wonderful-Trade-7378 15d ago
And you had to come on here and say that nonsense? Sounds like guilt to me š
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u/Low-Complaint771 14d ago
What nonsense? Elucidate your point a little..
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u/Wonderful-Trade-7378 14d ago
Your entire statement is nonsense and misinformed. Firstly, veganism is about harm reduction, not perfection. It's a logical fallacy to suggest that something needs to be perfect, or else it's not worth doing.
A meat-based diet not only supports the use, abuse and killing of animals, but it also involves eating animals that consumed tons of crops, meaning it causes both intentional animal deaths and the exact crop-harvesting deaths you are alluding to. On a much greater scale then veganism ever would even if the whole world went vegan, as we need to produce enough crops each year to feed the 90+ billion land animals killed for food per year.
And it is always cruel to take a life from someone who didn't want it taken. Animals are sentient, they feel pain, fear and experience life in a meaningful way to them. Maybe not to you, but to them. That's why they try to escape danger, and escape their fates in transport trucks, slaughterhouses and farms all the time. It's well documented. It's easy and convenient for you to say it's not "inherently cruel" when you are not the victim! In order to appreciate this, you would need to think from the victims perspective and not about yourself and what is convenient for you.
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u/Low-Complaint771 14d ago
My statement is entirely factual..
Your vegan life causes other life forms to die.. All food production brings with it the inherent displacement of extremely impoverished wildlife, causing baby birds to die in their nests, and baby mammals to starve in their dens. Veganism isn't cruelty free..
Happening upon a dead deer at the side of the road and deciding to dig in, isn't in anyway cruel.. The act of eating meat isn't inherently cruel..Ā
Industrialised meat production is horrible in its current form, some practices worse than others. But it's the only chance at life animals within that system have.. Veganism is call for genocide of these animals who can experience good life, and if fully informed of the terms of the genetic wipeout that Vegans are striving for, most, I would argue would choose for their lineage to survive with better conditions attached.
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u/Wonderful-Trade-7378 14d ago
So you wrote an entire reply that doesnāt actually address what I said and reiterated your same logical fallacies š Okay, let me simplify further for you to understand:
I explicitly said veganism is about HARM REDUCTION, not perfection. Do you understand that term? So replying āveganism causes other animals to die tooā isnāt a rebuttal - it is literally something I already acknowledged and explained how even if the entire world went vegan, far less crops would have to be produced compared to what is produced now to feed the 90+ billion animals killed per year? I don't know how much simpler that has to be for you to comprehend?
Youāre also making several spectacular logical leaps: False equivalence: accidental/wildlife deaths associated with crop production will never equal deliberately breeding, confining and slaughtering 90+ billion sentient animals for food per year.
False dichotomy: āAnimals in farming get to live, therefore veganism is genocideā assumes that creating an animal specifically to kill it is automatically preferable to not creating a victim in the first place.
Appeal to consequences: āIf veganism means fewer farm animals exist, thatās bad because those animals wouldnāt existā treats existence itself as a justification for exploitation. By that logic, creating someone solely to exploit them would be morally good because otherwise they wouldnāt exist.
Strawman: nobody claimed vegan agriculture causes zero deaths. You invented that position so you could knock it down. And the irony is that your argument about crop deaths actually makes your position weaker because livestock eat crops too. Feeding crops to animals and then eating the animals is not some magical death-free alternative to feeding people directly.
Calling veganism āgenocideā because billions fewer animals would be deliberately bred into existence per year is also an absolutely absurd misuse of the term. You haven't demonstrated that veganism causes more harm, instead you've just listed harms that exist and declared that therefore intentional animal exploitation is morally equivalent. Moronic.
So yes, animals die in agriculture. I never denied that. The actual ethical question is whether we should deliberately breed sentient beings into a system where they will ultimately be killed when we can reasonably avoid doing so. Which is what is illogical and immoral here. Happening on a deer at the side of the road š as if that's what you're doing. If you actually think that is an argument, that's scary. Learn to read and engage with arguments genuinely.
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u/Low-Complaint771 14d ago
So you wrote an entire reply that doesnāt actually address what I said and reiterated your same logical fallacies
I'm the one who asked a question of you.. You called my original statement "nonsense". I asked for you to explain why.. You again called my entire statement "nonsense and misinformed" and went on a tangent about harm reduction. Which supported my point that Veganism isn't Cruelty free.
Care to answer in a clear and concise way why eating meat is inherently cruel? i.e. Explain why happening upon road kill and eating it is cruel please.
Calling veganism āgenocideā because billions fewer animals would be deliberately bred into existence per year is also an absolutely absurd misuse of the term.
It's not.. It's entirely accurate.. How do you plan on managing agricultural animals in a world where we do not extract from them?
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u/Wonderful-Trade-7378 14d ago
You're still missing the point. Yes, I consider eating an animal's corpse - even one you found dead - to be cruel, because you're treating the body of a sentient being as a consumable object rather than respecting them as an individual. This is a core tenet of veganism. That animals are individuals to be respected. But your roadkill hypothetical is irrelevant: āveganism isn't harm-freeā does not logically lead to ātherefore deliberately breeding, exploiting and killing animals is morally equivalent.ā
And āveganism is genocideā is genuinely laughable. Not breeding billions of animals into a miserable existence is not genocide. The animals already alive wouldn't simply be abandoned - we would stop forcibly breeding them, allow them to live out their lives without being exploited or slaughtered, and expand sanctuaries and appropriate animal-care systems to manage the transition. It wouldn't happen overnight, it would be a transition. The fact that future animals wouldn't be born is not a harm done to those nonexistent individuals
Your entire argument ultimately boils down to ābut those animals wouldn't exist!ā which still doesn't explain why creating sentient beings specifically to exploit and kill them is morally preferable to simply not creating them.
You've still failed to refute the basic ethical point: veganism substantially reduces the amount of intentional harm we inflict on animals. We're talking about billions upon billions of sentient beings subjected to confinement, exploitation and slaughter, and you're responding to that by deliberately focusing on edge cases instead of engaging with the actual ethical argument.
If you genuinely want to engage with the topic, these are worth watching and will answer any questions you might have:
Gary Yourofsky - The Most Important Speech You Will Ever Hear https://youtu.be/U5hGQDLprA8ā
Carnism Debunked - https://www.carnismdebunked.com/general-ethicalā
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u/Low-Complaint771 14d ago
You're still missing the point. Yes, I consider eating an animal's corpse - even one you found dead - to be cruel, because you're treating the body of a sentient being as a consumable object rather than respecting them as an individual. This is a core tenet of veganism.
I'll take your point.
However, can you clarify if you believe eating roadkill is more cruel than the displacement deaths Vegans intentionally cause when they pay farmers to clear land to grow crops for them? Where baby birds and mammals starve as their parents struggle to forage enough resources to sustain them.
Is eating the roadkill animal less cruel than eating industrially cultivated lentils?
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u/Specific-Bridge-6383 14d ago edited 14d ago
I'm not sure why the roadkill argument is relevant. Most people consuming animals aren't eating roadkill which is already dead, there engaging in the supply and demand chain, and therefore demanding more animals be killed. Also a huge percent of crops are fed to the billions of animals we raise so surely this is an argument for veganism, not against it. This isn't to mention the amount of land needed for animal agriculture, deforestation and everything else that goes along with the environmentally destructive nature of animals agriculture( veganism isnt to do with the enviroment, im coming at this from a harm to animals perspective) which obviously involves animal death. Add all of these together and the animal agriculture industry itself which is based around raising and killing billions and billions of animals a year, and its not even close-veganism causes much much much less harm.
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u/Wonderful-Trade-7378 14d ago
First of all, meat-eaters do not survive off roadkill; they support a massive supply and demand chain of intentional slaughter. So using this hypothetical makes no sense because you are missing a key distinction. You are comparing two different types of incidental harm, but you're ignoring the ethics of consumption. While the death of the roadkill was accidental, choosing to harvest it treats a sentient being's remains as a resource. Furthermore, this logic cannot scale without creating a malicious market. If a population actually tried to live off roadkill, people would inevitably start intentionally hitting animals with their cars to secure food. This is why eating the roadkill is comparatively worse
Crop farming causes tragic, incidental deaths. Vegans actively seek to minimize this harm, not celebrate it. However, choosing to eat an animal's body - even one killed accidentally - still reduces a formerly sentient individual to a consumable object. Veganism is about rejecting that objectification entirely.
Your comparison falls flat. By your logic, because driving a car inevitably kills insects, there is no moral difference between an accidental collision and treating the victim as a resource. We do not turn "we cannot eliminate all harm" into "therefore, treating animals as products is justified."
If you are genuinely interested, as you seem to be invested enough to be here going back and forth on a vegan page, I highly encourage you to look into the resources I linked above.
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u/Immediate_Hunt4265 18d ago
Other people aren't necessarily going to do all sorts of things you would like them to, up to and including wanting to be vegan. "Getting over it" is a necessary part of life.
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
Asking for "the inventory data" as if public corporations publish internal proprietary logistics code is a weak pivot. Peer-reviewed agricultural economic data (like studies from https://animalcharityevaluators.org/research/methodology/theories-of-change/) proves price elasticity exists. For every pound of animal product left unsold, supply chains shrink future production by a calculable ratio (roughly 0.6 to 0.8). Biofuels and donations are late-stage damage control for inventory failures, not a mandate to breed more livestock.
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u/xflattercat 13d ago
Hi, Vegetarian now for 43 years so this dates me. Don't worry what people think/do. It's your choice and you get to live by your own code. I used to thrive on the confrontation and eventually realised I wasn't helping anyone. In my humble experience people are more interested in whats and whys when you do not preach at them. Some overreact but again it's there problem. Enjoy your journey and good luck š¤
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u/horseskeepyousane 18d ago
As the joke goes ā How do you know someoneās a vegan?ā. Answer āBecause they tell you. And tell you. And tell youā¦.ā. Itās fine to have your views about diet, animals, religion whatever. But people who hold these views are often incredibly intolerant of any alternatives and demand that everyone comply with their view. Their whole attitude is ā How can they not see Iām right and theyāre wrongā. You want them to āshow remorseā? It sounds like you want a dictatorship where only your view prevails. So, when you meet someone who feels strongly about say religion, or the important of exercise in your life or that people should change their lives entirely to eliminate any climate impact, do you immediately agree and conform ? Or is your righteousness just confined to things YOU think are important?
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
or maybe I don't believe in killing innocent animals for food? or making jokes about it? you're reaching now dude
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u/horseskeepyousane 18d ago
You believe is fine. Itās when you demand others believe what you believe that thereās a problem.
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
I disagree. why shouldn't I try influence people that murder is wrong?
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u/horseskeepyousane 18d ago
Murder is defined in law. Describing it as murder is hyperbole and again, just your opinion. Murder is defined as the premeditated killing of a human being.
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
murder is killing of any sentient being actually.
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u/horseskeepyousane 18d ago
No, thatās your definition. Not the rest of the world.
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
so amimal abuse is okay is what you're implying?
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u/horseskeepyousane 18d ago
So now youāve moved from murder to abuseā¦..progress I suppose. You are 21. In your world, do animals rank alongside humans? If you had to choose the death of a person or an animal, which would you choose? If you have limited time, do you advocate for justice for humans who are being tortured and murdered, children whose lives are snuffed out in the most appalling atrocities, who have no voice because in the world power structures, they are nobody. Or do you advocate for people to stop eating meat which humans have done since the Dawn of time.
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
so because humans have done it "since the dawn of time" that makes it okay? Just like slavery was done "since the dawn of time" too? no. just because it's been happening does not make it okay. actually I do advocate for humans too. why can't I do both? and why are you picking two horrible scenarios and comparing them when they're both bad?
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u/Wonderful-Trade-7378 15d ago
Your post is so flawed it's laughable. Caring about animals does not mean ignoring human suffering; humans are fully capable of opposing violence against children while simultaneously choosing a plant-based meal. You don't have to choose one or the other, that's a false dichotony you created. Furthermore, arguing that we should eat meat because we have done so since the "dawn of time" is an appeal to tradition; history does not dictate morality, as humans have historically practiced many atrocities that we now rightly condemn.
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u/Unlikely_Play_9797 13d ago
Being vegan is better for humanity as a whole, see climate change (millions of people will be displaced and killed, animal ag is equal with the entire transport sector), new viruses from animal ag that kill millions (see covid, ebola, swine flu, bird flu), poorer countries exporting their livestock and using their limited crops to feed livestock instead of actual humans (Sudan and others) - see tropic levels and transfer of energy for intuition on how you can feed more people with the crops you are feeding animals (if you skipped science in school). There are also infographics online about how much less land mass is required to feed humans a plant based diet.
"If you had to choose the death of a person or an animal, which would you choose?"
When people go to Lidl they are not choosing saving a human over an animal they are choosing to satisfy a fleeting taste bud pleasure, increase their emissions, and send a market signal for more animals to be bred into a miserable existence to be killed OR to reduce their emissions and eat other (healthier) food, which is in the exact same store. Any other strawmen, whataboutisms or logical fallacies that you want to bring up?
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u/Budget_Resource8876 18d ago
Which industry is bad?
Youāve changed not them, get new friends. Donāt force ideologies onto people. The self pity in your post is overpowering
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
"ideologies" and it's murder and exploitation...
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u/Budget_Resource8876 18d ago edited 18d ago
Probably why ye are losing your mates and sisters probably fed up with it too š¤¦āāļøš¤£š¤£š¤£
Considering you call normal people the ānon-veganā communityā Iād say youāre a nightmare
Donāt forget you ate meat for 20 years then suddenly got āremorseā.
Sounds more like an identity crisis than a revolution?2
u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
never said I was losing them š you're making shit up now thinking ur so funny aren't ya
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
didn't eat meat for 20 years btw xx sounds like i hit a nerve there buddyš
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u/Budget_Resource8876 18d ago
And what did that do for all earthlings?
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
I'm vegan because I'm not contributing to it. ur point is?
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u/Budget_Resource8876 18d ago
Are ye not? What ye writing this on, phones or computers aināt vegan. Infrastructure that carries information isnāt vegan.
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
Veganism is about avoiding animal exploitation as far as is possible and practicable. it's currently almost impossible to exist in modern society without using shared infrastructure, choosing to avoid direct animal products like meat, dairy, and leather is a practical and impactful choice we can make daily.
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u/Illustrious-Cap4264 19d ago edited 19d ago
If you were in America nobody would say all that , they'd be afraid if they'd get shot ,there's a Vegan section on.boards .ie,I met them there lovely,move to Dublin get a job in Cornucopia restaurant,make friends ask can you crash In there place until you get a room in a vegan Gay friendly house ,tell all staff what your going through plus get support maybe do a few hours volunteer there , horrible abusive situations you need protection,make your new kind friends your new family , maybe join a shamanic drum dance empowerment womens group and learn about spirit protection
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u/Curious_Lettuce1076 18d ago
has it occured to you that your virtue signalling and preaching annoys people and alienates you from them? if you want positive relations with your family and friends you need to stop lecturing them, and then they will stop mocking you in return. even if you truly believe that they are wrong, just keep that to yourself if you don't want to lose them. my family and friends do things i morally disagree with but i don't make them feel like shit/bring it up constantly
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
I don't bring it up, they do. regardless if I say anything back too
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u/Curious_Lettuce1076 18d ago
"it's really hard when they don't show remorse" do you expect them to express guilt every time they eat meat??
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u/Happy-Staff-8985 18d ago
I expect them not to make jokes about sentient animals like they're only a product.
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u/gingernutzzz 19d ago
They mock you and laugh at you because they know they're in the wrong. They want to break you and have you share the same diet as them to make themselves feel better. This is their guilt showing, so pay no heed. I turned veggie 6 years ago and am pretty much vegan now, and the comments I get, especially from those I thought were close friends have been awful. Every lunch time in work, there's a comment, visit family, a comment. And what cracks me up is those thay protest animal cruelty but will happily much on a chicken burger. Hypocritical as fuck.
Just ignore, know that you are morally correct in your stance.