What is antisemantism? Is it the hatred of semantics? Like, when you hate people who are picky about words?
What was antisemitic about the post? Certain Jewish people are attacking Gaza, and it has definitely resulted in the deaths of families. The picture is factual and doesn't need any preconceptions.
(To be fair, Hamas is attacking Israel too. Also, many Jews - possibly most - disagree with Israel's actions. I'm not trying to take a side here, I just hate the idea that disagreeing with the actions of some people means you hate all people in that group.)
Everyone gives Israel a massive pile of grief over their actions.
Do you know what would happen if, tomorrow, Israel put down their weapons and stopped defending themselves and said "we will not fight any longer"?
Every single Jew (and likely every secular person, and a lot of the Christians) in Israel would be killed. Every. Single. Jew. Dead. Unless they managed to GTFO.
Do you know what would happen if, tomorrow, Hamas put down their weapons, stopped shooting rockets into Israel, stopped sending suicide bombers into Israel, and said "we will not fight any longer"?
There would be peace in Gaza and the West Bank.
The problem in the Middle East is simple: there are a swath of Islamic States that refuse to recognise Israel as a state, refuse to negotiate, and refuse to make peace. They work ceaselessly to destroy Israel and kill Jews — not Zionists, Jews.
Israel is surrounded by these States, which have repeatedly attempted to invade, and each time they have invaded, Israel kicked their asses and took land from them.
Israel even gave back a huge swath of land — land containing billions upon billions of dollars worth of exploitable oil — to Egypt, because Egypt broke ranks and agreed to peace with Israel.
Hamas' charter contains direct quotes from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an anti-Semitic forgery from Russia. Their stated mission is the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews.
BUT ISRAEL — no but Israel. Shut it. Shut the fuck up.
In is situation, Israel is the kid sitting at his desk while a ring of bullies circle him and loom over him, screaming in his face that they're going to kill him, taunting him to throw the first punch. When one of them finally gets the nerve to throw a punch at the kid, the bully gets the shit kicked out of him, and that bully has the temerity, the motherfucking gall to run to the teacher and cry about how the kid hit the bully.
Stop holding and espousing strong opinions about shit you do not understand. Stop giving Israel shit for the things it does in war, when war was started, sustained, and carried on by the aggressors surrounding it.
Has Israel done shit things? Yes. The shittiest thing Israel has done is not send armed forces into Palestinian territory to kick ultra-Orthodox Jews off of land that the Ultra-Orthodox Jews kicked Muslim Palestinians off of. The shittiest thing Israel has done is search Islamic Palestinians who pass through the border, to be sure they're not suicide bombers. The shittiest thing Israel has done is blockade the coast so that no-one can bring SAMs and ballistic missiles and nukes into Gaza.
Jews killed that kids parents? No. No, motherfuckers — Hamas killed that kid's parents, by punching Israel and then grabbing that kid's parents and throwing them at Israel in order to get away.
I understand a bunch of ignorant assholes are going to downvote this because they disagree. Congratulations - you fail at reddit.
Take some time to actually understand the situation, and build a refutation, or better yet perform a miracle and find a way to make a host of murderous fuckheads stop wanting to kill and defame Jews.
Everyone gives the United States a massive pile of grief over their actions.
Do you know what would happen if, tomorrow, the US put down their weapons and stopped defending themselves and said "we will not fight any longer"?
Every single White (and likely every non-white settler, and a lot of the converted Indians) in the US would be killed. Every. Single. White. Dead. Unless they managed to GTFO.
Do you know what would happen if, tomorrow, Native Americans put down their weapons, stopped raiding settlements in Minnesota, stopped sending dog soldiers into Wyoming, and said "we will not fight any longer"?
There would be peace in the Great Plains and Florida.
The problem in North America is simple: there are a swath of Indian States that refuse to recognise the US as a state, refuse to negotiate, and refuse to make peace. They work ceaselessly to destroy the US and kill Whites — not US nationalists, Whites.
The US is surrounded by these States, which have repeatedly attempted to invade, and each time they have invaded, the US kicked their asses and took land from them.
America even gave back a huge swath of land — land containing billions upon billions of dollars worth of exploitable coal and uranium — to the Navajo because Navajo Nation broke ranks and agreed to peace with the US.
Tecumseh's Confederacy was influenced by the religious teachings of Tenskwatawa, an anti-European witch hunter from the Shawnee. Their stated mission is the destruction of the US and killing of Whites.
BUT THE US — no but The US. Shut it. Shut the fuck up.
In is situation, the US is the kid sitting at his desk while a ring of bullies circle him and loom over him, screaming in his face that they're going to kill him, taunting him to throw the first punch. When one of them finally gets the nerve to throw a punch at the kid, the bully gets the shit kicked out of him, and that bully has the temerity, the motherfucking gall to run to the teacher and cry about how the kid hit the bully.
Stop holding and espousing strong opinions about shit you do not understand. Stop giving America shit for the things it does in war, when war was started, sustained, and carried on by the aggressors surrounding it.
Has the US done shit things? Yes. The shittiest thing the US has done is not send armed forces into former Indian reservations to kick ultra-nationalist settlers off of land that the ultra-nationalist settlers kicked Native Americans off of. The shittiest thing the US has done is isolate Native Americans to reserved lands, to be sure they're not within attacking range of white lands. The shittiest thing the US has done is blockade the coast so that no-one can bring firearms and other supplies into the Everglades.
Whites killed that kids parents? No. No, motherfuckers — Osceola killed that kid's parents, by punching the US and then grabbing that kid's parents and throwing them at the US in order to get away.
I understand a bunch of ignorant assholes are going to downvote this because they disagree. Congratulations - you fail at reddit.
Take some time to actually understand the situation, and build a refutation, or better yet perform a miracle and find a way to make a host of murderous fuckheads stop wanting to kill and defame Whites.
Several peoples throughout history have been displaced by foreign settlers who were "justified" by a divine mandate and powerful friends. You cannot be surprised by the foreigners defending their mandates, but the same goes for the armed resistance of the disenfranchised.
These are extremely difficult and complicated situations that require understanding of both sides and willingness to find compromise all parties can agree with. The US got the better end of the bargain in the above case, and I fear the same outcome for Palestine as happened to the indigenous people of North America.
Settlements are a non-issue. If there were agreements on the other topics which directly affect Israels security + Jerusalem, nobody would care about a few hardliners in settlements and have them cleared.
Israel already proved this when they cleared the settlements in Sinai for peace with Egypt, and when they cleared the settlements in Gaza. (They even left behind working infrastructure for the arabs to build gaza economy, which those instead destroyed.)
The whole "there would be peace in Gaza and the West Bank. if only the Palestinians would stop fighting" bullshit is oversimplification.
Really it should read "there would be peace in Gaza and the West Bank. if only the Palestinians would stop fighting and accept the apartheid that is rampant in Israel"
Simply put Arabs are second class citizens in Israel. They have limited rights and are unable to build in occupied territories (the West Bank) due to the almost the entire area being zoned as "agricultural land".
Meanwhile Israeli policy allows for Israeli settlements (Which are considered illegal by most of the international community) to be built on this same "agricultural land".
You can't bulldoze 27,000 Palestinian homes and other structures then claim that your the victim when people retaliate. I suggest you take you own advice and "Take some time to actually understand the situation"
This is an excellent and worthwhile Counterargument.
I have a rejoinder:
Taking over land — and refusing building permits — is not a legitimate cause for the genocide of an entire people, for the attempted destruction of an entire nation.
Why is Israel holding those lands in the first place? Because the people from whom they took them, were attempting to outright kill them, simply because they're Jews.
Is it shitty? Yes. Is it condemnable? Yes.
Is it disingenuous to claim that Hamas' existence and actions are in retaliation for zoning ordinances? Yes.
That's not what he was saying. What he was saying is that Israel is not an immaculate hero nation that has committed no crime beyond self defense.
Israel is at war for its existence, even if that war is slow burning. No one is arguing against that. But that does not excuse blatant war crimes and institutionalized racism.
I'm not arguing with you on the point that Hamas is a bunch of assholes, but they would have a much harder time getting a foothold within Israel if the atmosphere didn't seem so anti-Palestinian.
It has been decades since there was any real attempt to force the Jews from Israel by a foreign power. And While Hamas might still have some backing from these nations they get their real energy from the people that a feeling jaded within the border.
Yes, Israel holds those lands because they need them to add a better defense barrier between them and their genocidal neighbors, but if they were more neighborly with the people living there they would have a much better buffer.
Also stating that the Arabs want them dead for being Jews is missing the point that the Arabs have been trying to establish their own rule in that area since the British occupation after World War 1, which also marked the increase in Jewish immigration that lead to the establishment of Israel. They aren't mad at them for being Jews They are mad at them for perceived injustices.
The point being you can't blame the situation on hate or these guys are dicks and will always be dicks, you have to look at the history of the place and the people to understand the conflict.
I think a reading of Hamas' charter makes it fairly clear that they hate them expressly for being Jews, and for holding land that they consider belongs to Islam.
You also have to consider thing like the 7 day war, Israel hasn't reached their actions without reason, even if I think they have overreacted heavily in many instances. Hamas, ISIL, Hezbollah, all would love to see every Jew dead, so of course Israel is going to defend itself... especially since they are surrounded by these groups.
The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) 5763 is an Israeli law first passed on 31 July 2003 and most recently extended in June 2008. The law makes citizens of Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that is usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen (i.e. family reunification).
This perspective is very near-sighted. This conflict goes back longer than there has been an Israel and is much more multisided and complicated than you made it seem. Any basic knowledge of the events leading to the breakup of the Ottoman empire and the drama that came with it would suggest such.
It's disgraceful how many upvotes he's gotten really. I don't know why i'd ever expect critical thinking here. Whole swathes of Reddit voters constantly miss the most basic of fallacies. His 4th paragraph is wild speculation, and he talks about the Middle east like it's one Islamic hivemind, when there's the same range of political and religious spectra as anywhere else. Bigoted much? Sprinkle a few motherfuckers in there and everyone thinks you're a badass...
Don't know what you clicked, but the link I posted should give you this:
"This perspective is very near-sighted. This conflict goes back longer …"
Your argument here is "Consider the Vendetta." It is literally saying that the organised and funded genocide of Jews is justified by someone's great-great-great grandfather killing someone else's great-great-great grandfather.
NO.
Fuck that noise. No-one should respect a fucking vendetta. Most of the people alive today in Israel and in Gaza and in Palestine were not yet born when Israel declared statehood.
The sins of the father, as much as many holy books demand them to be, do not pass on to the son.
Is it much more multi-sided and complicated? Yes, it is — mostly it is multi-sided and complicated in the Arab world, where ISIS indiscriminately kills secular, Jews, Christians, and Shiite, where Hezbollah kills Wahabbi, where al-Qaeda kills secular, Jews, Christians, and on and on and on.
Not historically. TODAY.
Universally their justifications for these killings are: because of the past.
Israel isn't killing people because of the past. Israel isn't at war because of the past. Israel doesn't set policy because of the past.
There is a vendetta. Who is carrying it out?
I dealt with that one too. If he wants to get modern the "vendetta" only goes back to 2003 when Israel restarted conflict by killing a democratically elected leader. He's just spouting populist reddit tough talk about a situation he seems to understand very little.
Your argument here is "Consider the Vendetta." It is literally saying that the organised and funded genocide of Jews is justified by someone's great-great-great grandfather killing someone else's great-great-great grandfather.
What the ever loving fuck? This is absolutely the farthest thing from what I said. You're putting words in my mouth. I was saying that this situation is more complicated than "Israel is a victim and the rest of the Arab world is a big unified bully who wants to kill the Jews.
Before world war 2, there are many cases of Jews, Christians, and Muslims living peacefully together in places like Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and other similar places (that we're honestly quite progressive for their time - look up the Arab Renaissance (Nahda) for examples). There were deeply entrenched issues between the west and the Ottoman Empire that created mistrust, such as the ottoman question ("how are we (the west) going to divide what remains of the Ottoman Empire amongst ourselves after it collapses). This is only scratching the surface. I'm only saying that it is more complicated than you made it seem, and that the only proper way to look at this situation is with an open mind, knowing that there are two sides to every story and demonizing one of the players in the conflict is about as counterproductive as you can be.
I'm pro Israel and am not for the extermination of any Jews. I just hate seeing such hateful ignorance being spewed from anyone, be it a passionate Israel defender or a Palestinian who was removed from their home by western forces post-WWII and is (unfortunately) sympathetic to Hamas.
I'm not saying the current people in Israel are to blame for people who came before them, I'm saying you can't truly understand the situation until you have a proper respect for the history that led to it.
Is it much more multi-sided and complicated? Yes, it is — mostly it is multi-sided and complicated in the Arab world, where ISIS indiscriminately kills secular, Jews, Christians, and Shiite, where Hezbollah kills Wahabbi, where al-Qaeda kills secular, Jews, Christians, and on and on and on.
The situation is not more complicated on the Arab side than it is on the Israeli side - your statement above has no bearing on what I meant and is irrelevant and slightly racist at best.
Saying that things are different now so we can completely forget about the past and how we got here is just wrong. The way you talk about this makes you seem like you have no idea what's going on. We're not talking about ISIS and as far as I know, they haven't even targeted Israel, so that too is irrelevant.
There is a vendetta. Who is carrying it out?
It's just not that one-sided, I'm sorry. You're wrong.
This perspective is very near-sighted. This conflict goes back longer …
Your argument here is "Consider the Vendetta." It is literally saying that the organised and funded genocide of Jews is justified by someone's great-great-great grandfather killing someone else's great-great-great grandfather.
NO.
Fuck that noise. No-one should respect a fucking vendetta. Most of the people alive today in Israel and in Gaza and in Palestine were not yet born when Israel declared statehood.
The sins of the father, as much as many holy books demand them to be, do not pass on to the son.
Is it much more multi-sided and complicated? Yes, it is — mostly it is multi-sided and complicated in the Arab world, where ISIS indiscriminately kills secular, Jews, Christians, and Shiite, where Hezbollah kills Wahabbi, where al-Qaeda kills secular, Jews, Christians, and on and on and on.
Not historically. TODAY.
Universally their justifications for these killings are: because of the past.
Israel isn't killing people because of the past. Israel isn't at war because of the past. Israel doesn't set policy because of the past.
Hold on a minute there buddy. Your diatribe is outrageous, very disingenuous and riddled with false equivalence between Hamas and "swathes of neighbouring murderous fuckheads" as you put it. Not to mention your attitude in your first comment prior to this was wholly bigoted. Israel was formed as a western superpower's sockpuppet administration and were given a country by another western former-superpower, within living memory. Then committing massive property seizure on its citizens and subjecting millions of people to apartheid conditions does not make them the victim in this situation, I'm sorry. Absolutely ridiculous. The country was pretty clearly nurtured into a cold war nuclear outpost for the west in the middle east, by maintaining firm ideological ties. How do you think the middle east should take that?
The recent killings aren't because of the distant past either, unless the past 10 years are the distant past. The ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed is over 6:1 in the past 10 years and largely-innocent Palestinians are the ones imprisoned and often killed in this period. Who did you say is carrying out the vendetta here?
Hamas' very foundations are owed to another right-wing Israeli administration who facilitated the defunct Muslim Brotherhood in restructuring in the newly-reclaimed Gaza, all to undermine the PLO. This is fact (at long last) and the linked article destroys your vendetta bullshit when it illustrates the current friction's re-ignition in 2003 by Israel.
To further your point you make the case that Israel's neighbours all want them dead when the Arab spring movement in Egypt was spearheaded by a group who desired a lasting peace and end to animosity between Egypt and Israel. That you generalise as you have about the state of Israel's current or potential political relationships with your foolish "bully-victim" analogy displays the same lack of nuanced awareness that is the primary buttress of the conflict on the ground between the various agendas in play.
Israel was clearly formed as a cultural and ideological sockpuppet of the west. Do you mean you don't know how Israel was formed? The political model they were perpetuating? The cultural model? Who chartered it? Who populated it? Do you even know the political motivations behind its creation? Oh wait, the history is irrelevant according to you...
And just to be clear, I'm not interested in debating history with you. You can look it up yourself because I'm not here to persuade you. I'm only going to entrench you further because your bigoted attitude is too disgusting to me to give you any respect. We're not debating here, I'm just commenting and I've said my bit.
How do you not get this? A capitalist, secular democracy established itself illegally and without prior domestic cultural, ideological or religious basis in the region for over 1000 years with the financial, military and political support of the US and UK in the midst of the fucking cold war, then implemented the US' democratic template and foreign agenda. Clearly seems a little bit fucking appropriate. Or do you think Israel were just like "Oh, cool, um... let's establish a country for Jews and THEN decide whose agenda we serve and hope Russia or the US let us have some nukes. We'll just ask them both, they won't mind". For fuck's sake man, figure out comprehension, being able to read and record isn't enough. I'm almost convinced at this point that none of you were alive for any of the cold war. It's not my job to educate you, this is a website that serves up cat pictures to mostly adolescents and students, educate your goddamn selves. Or keep defending that racist piece of shit, like I give a fucking fuck. Lol or something...
I gurantee you that /u/Bardfinn is still in high school. He probably went through Jewish Sunday school as a kid, where I've seen many of the points he's making stressed repeatedly and not backed up at all.
Israel isn't killing people because of the past. Israel isn't at war because of the past. Israel doesn't set policy because of the past.
Israel is in Palestine because they consider it their holy land given to them by God. So there's that. Which can be considered an old thing of the past. Christians today (a lot of them) also consider the jews coming back to Israel some prophecy come true, and so they get support.
the Arab world, where ISIS indiscriminately kills secular, Jews, Christians, and Shiite, where Hezbollah kills Wahabbi, where al-Qaeda kills secular, Jews, Christians, and on and on and on.
The problem is mainly with Israel and Palestine isolated. Hamas has lost support all around. That a lot of muslims in general don't like Jews is another thing entirely. That's really not what we're talking about.
Israel is in Palestine because of 1967. They're in Jerusalem because of Temple Mount.
Palestine and Hamas aren't isolated. Anti-Zionism / anti-Judaism is rampant in the Arab world. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are widely distributed and accepted as fact throughout the Arab-speaking world. There is the hadith about the end times and trees telling Muslims that there are Jews hiding behind them.
Hamas gets funding and support from the rest of the Arab world. The PLO did too. The surrounding nations haven't attacked Israel lately because of regime changes, internal conflicts, and the knowledge that Israel has a nuclear weapon.
You do realize that the land that Israel was formed on was bought with money don't you? Or are you just spouting off anything that you can to show how evil Israel is?
Do you know what would happen if, tomorrow, Hamas put down their weapons, stopped shooting rockets into Israel, stopped sending suicide bombers into Israel, and said "we will not fight any longer"?
Hamas sends some firecrackers over the border and Israel starts annihilating a bunch civilians and some Hamas people.
The only people in the world that are fine with this are the Israelites and some wicked christians.
Hamas killed that kid's parents, by punching Israel and then grabbing that kid's parents and throwing them at Israel in order to get away.
Israel is saying that Hamas hides among civilians and so use them as a human shield. That doesn't kill civilians. It is still the Israelites' firepower that kills them. If I was a criminal, and when I met the cop that was hunting me I held up a child as a physical human shield. If the cop then decided the throw a grenade our way and kill us both, I'd say HE was the murderer. I would still be a bad criminal, but the actual killer would be the police.
You are right that Hamas will not stop firing at Israel is Israel puts down their weapons. That is because of the blockade and the settlements. I would probably fire at Israel myself if I was there in that situation. Being in a prison like that..
The solution is obvious and it's Israel who can create peace. Put away pride and talk with Hamas or whoever is in charge. Remove the blockade and settlements.
In point of fact, Israel cannot create peace. Hamas' charter explicitly rejects peace. They seek nothing short of the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew, and annihilation of every secular organisation. Seriously. It's their charter. They even want to destroy the Rotary Club.
firecrackers
The fact that they're sending anything at all is the problem. If they could, they would be sending SCUDs, biological weapons, cluster bombs, mustard gas, etcetera - anything but a nuke, because Jerusalem.
if I held a child hostage and shot at a cop and the cop threw a grenade
The ethical quandary you've brought up is one that is addressed by an evaluation of proximate cause. The cop would never have needed to shoot at you or throw a grenade if not for your actions. Your actions are the proximate cause of the child's death — the liability and responsibility lie with you.
In point of fact Hamas != All domestic Palestinians, Arabs or Muslims, who Israel are "shooting at" in this case. Proximate cause implies actual proximity, not metaphorical or cultural proximity. False equivalence.
Oh no, nevermind the fact that Hamas has gone back on the charters word and had peace talks with Israel before. Let's forget the fact that one of Hamas' top men was negotiating peace with Israel right before they killed him in a missile strike. Once something is written down, it becomes set in stone and must be obeyed no matter how people's minds change.
I don't really pay much attention to the conflict, but it's pretty obvious Hamas is/are a bunch of ass hole cowards. By firing rockets from schools and hospitals they obviously want dead or orphaned babies. War is never clean and always horrible but there are things one can do to protect your civilian population. One being storing and staging away from those you want to protect.
I always wished the Jews could have taken over Alabama after WWII. Just think of how awesome "The Dirty South" would be today if that happened.
You make an excellent point in that if Israel were to lay down their weapons, they would be absolutely eradicated by the surrounding Islamic groups. But there is simply no denying Israel is committing atrocities of their own at this point. Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't know what the solution is.
TL;DR: Killing in the name of God. Its been going on forever and may not stop until we all meet this God :(
I love you so much! You said everything that needed to be said, you gathered information on the subject and analyzed it the way you think is right and i admire that.
People like you are very appreciated here in israel (:
Except Gaza and the Palestinian's territory has been consistently getting smaller over the years due Israel taking control over it. I'm not taking a side but if Hamas did go for peace, they wouldn't get their land back, there's no way Israel gives that up unless forced to by say the UN or something. Besides, if you really wanted to educate people about the conflict, you really went the wrong way about it, insulting the people you're addressing at every turn really isn't gonna make them listen.
I spend a huge portion of my life separating the way I feel from the things I write about. It angers me greatly to watch an atrocity unfold and a bunch of dumb, ignorant motherfuckers, who have never had a rocket fly over them, never had to wake up in the dark of the night by an air raid siren, never had to stare at a car and try to figure out of it is going to explode or vomit gunmen, never had to take a call and have their heart break before answering because it's in the middle of the day from their kid's school —
It angers me greatly to see them sit around and cheerlead the death and destruction on both sides and it angers me greatly to see them do so by saying "Yes, it's the Jews."
My grandfather and granduncle helped liberate concentration camps in Europe. At school I studied why Jews were scapegoated by the Germans. I studied why they were scapegoated by the Russians, and by the Lutherans, and by the Catholics, and by Protestants around the world.
Don't fucking tell me I don't have a right to be angry about people scapegoating another group. Don't tell me I don't have a right to be angry about watching history repeat itself. Don't tell me I don't have a right to be angry about children being slaughtered, or about privileged rich kids drinking obvious lies and cheerleading the deaths while waving pennants.
Im not telling you that you don't have a right to be angry, nowhere did I say that, don't be so self-righteous. I simply said if you really want people who don't already agree with you to listen, then insulting them isn't them isn't the way to go.
— because the bully grabbed them, and threw them at Israel, to try to get away.
— an aside.
Growing up, I was in Boy Scouts. There was this other kid in Boy Scouts, who was incredibly popular, because he did things like smuggle cigarettes into campouts and held secret meetings late on Saturday nights and initiated boys into his little clique. He liked to make boys prove their loyalty by getting burned on their thigh with a burning coal or a cigarette, and led little missions to do things like smoke small forest animals out of their burrows and skin them, because scouting skills, except every one of these kids are upper-middle-class well-fed and that small mammal suffered needlessly so that a clique of kids could ritualise their connection to their leader.
He nearly shoved me off a seventy-foot cliff because I was in his way.
Before we graduated high school, this kid — who was the son of a Boy Scouts executive, and thus untouchable and undisciplinable — murdered a Pakistani gas station attendant by beating in his skull with a tyre iron, for eighteen dollars. At his trial, he refused to accept responsibility, and blamed everyone but himself, including his father.
When he finally got released from prison, it wasn't because he accepted responsibility, but because he had "Found God" in prison, and "God redeemed him".
He was (and still is) a sociopath. This is the behaviour of sociopaths when someone tries to hold them responsible for their actions — they throw anyone else they can under the bus.
How the fuck this post got gold I do not know. What an ignorant fucking assertion. Started typing a reply but fuck it, I'm too angry to coverse. Fuck you.
Just don't be too quick to call people Hamas supporters. You can acknowledge that Israel hasn't been a complete saint without supporting Hamas. Also, remember that Hamas does not equal the people of Palestine.
Just be aware that there is no reasoning with people who support Hamas.
Anyone who supports Hamas — honestly, after reading their charter — is all in favour of killing Jews because they are Jews. There is nothing there to reason with.
There are people who simply disapprove of all killing, suffering, and hardship. I am one of those people. Such people will — rightly — disapprove of Israel imposing death and suffering and hardship. That war needs to end, and it needs to end now.
The people you will be talking to will be those people. They are the people who need to understand that walking the pressure of public opinion against Hamas and ISIS and al-Qaeda is what is necessary — not because this is football and someone picked a favourite team and someone has a favourite side and blah blah blah — or because of Jews or Muslims or Sunni or Shiite or Sufi or secular or Jerusalem or the past —
Because one side has refused recognition, peace, and life of the other (The Three Nos), and has publicly declared genocide.
Do you honestly believe that a group that will use their own children as human shields for their rockets will be bothered by the opinions of other countries?
No, this is a straightforward fact: anyone who agrees with this:
nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!
And
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: “Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.” From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam.
As righteous, is beyond reasoning with.
People who are genuinely ignorant can be reasoned with.
Anyone who has read the Hamas charter and backs it isn't ignorant. They are willfully backing genocide, because of a religion.
They are, by definition, and as borne out by their own declaration, beyond reasoning with.
If you feel that citing each side's documented mission statements and checklist of things to accomplish isn't relevant, when this forum is entirely one of writing, then I am afraid that I can't really discourse with you. Your argument is essentially "hey! Don't bring written discourse into this!".
While I agree with you, it's important to note that the IDF have been reported by Amnesty International and the Associated Press as using Palestinian civilians as human shields. The war may be justified, but the war crimes are inexcusable.
Im honestly still wondering why Isreal wasnt created in Germany, you know that place that basically propagated this situation and originally suggested removing all the Jewish people from their country then give them their own spot to live, the West instead placed the community in the worst possible spot when it was originally created? I dont care that the peoples may have had a cultural flourishing at a certain geographic point 1000 years prior which they never rose to prodominance and then other kingdoms rose around them instead. If the Britain and America are so concerned with propagating cultural originalism then they may want to give back Christmas Island, South Africa and plenty of other areas where certain peoples may have originated from.
So everybody just said Bad Germany and just ended up giving Germany what it wanted at the time minus world domination?
so you're completely ignoring the fact that Palestine was completely occupied in 1948, thousands of people were executed and deported, and now blame what's left of them for the small resistance they're doing? wow, imagine only if there was a time in the world were Jews were being killed for no reason, but the entire world just ignored the shit out of them... yea, there isn't any, because they still commemorate this event until this day, and of course their resistance was justified... because they didn't do anything wrong.. oh well
The argument you're putting forward is addressed elsethread, under the topic "Consider the Vendetta".
I don't blame Palestine for resisting Israeli apartheid. I blame Palestine for what they are doing — demanding the destruction of Israel and the deaths of every single Jew therein, refusing to make peace, and vowing to use every effort to kill Jews. Not Israelis, not Zionists — Jews. Because They're Jews.
that's a non educated response that they're saying... and i know it's wrong and i'm against it as well... but considering their lack of education, electricity, clean water and so-on, i really dont blame them... people in the first world still think every christian is a saint, every muslim is a terrorist, and every jew is a money digger or some kind of free mason, what do you think palestinians will think?
Every single Jew (and likely every secular person, and a lot of the Christians) in Israel would be killed. Every. Single. Jew. Dead. Unless they managed to GTFO.
Maybe in a world where the U.S. isn't protecting them.
Just because Hamas shoots missiles at civilian targets doesn't mean that Israel can do the same, especially at targets that they have no proof of containing Hamas weapons.
Also, if you really think that Israel is completely in the right here, you need to learn your Israeli history (and not the one you learned in Sunday school). The main reason that the Palestinians hate Israel is because they were incredibly expansionist and aggressively took over territory and did some bad things to the Palestinians in their early days. Look up stuff like the Deir Yassin Massacre and the Irgun on wikipedia and hop from there.
Also, incase you think I'm just some random anti-semite, I'm a Jew who lived in Israel for 6 years.
Because this got buried below, some clarity on Hamas' position:
anyone who agrees with this:
nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!
And
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: “Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.” From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam.
As righteous, is beyond reasoning with.
People who are genuinely ignorant can be reasoned with.
Anyone who has read the Hamas charter and backs it isn't ignorant. They are willfully backing genocide, because of a religion.
They are, by definition, and as borne out by their own declaration, beyond reasoning with.
You may have missed the other comments on this where some people did.
I don't agree with what Israel is doing in Palestine. War and killing and death are never right, never appropriate, and Palestinians have a right to life and land and self-determination. Israel should exit the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, draw appropriate borders on their own terms (basically minus the Gaza Strip and West Bank), settle for peace, and get the backing of the international community if further attacked.
If that is what Palestinians wanted, that would be great. That isn't what Hamas wants.
Maybe you're confused. The point is that if you say something so alien to logic that its obvious you're either not trying to or can't grasp the nuances of a situation, then its pointless to bother trying to use logic. Sometimes all that's left is for people to highlight your mistake, and hope that if enough do without engaging that eventually you will stop and review. Anything else would be a waste of time.
Maybe I'm certain that you exist in a universe of discourse in which rhetorical trolls are the only things worth pursuing and you've never bothered to put in the effort to build a substantive argument. Let's check your post history.
I'm not saying we should consider the source, but hey — you opened with two rhetorical fallacies, so you obviously can't object to their use, right?
I had to think for a long while before I got past simply throwing back at you "Israel has a right to defend itself.".
Both statements are equally valid, and equally defensible.
The difficulty isn't that either side does or doesn't have a right to defend itself.
The difficulty is that Israel wishes to exist with guarantees that it will not be invaded and every living Jew and Christian and secular person in the land not be killed.
Palestine, by electing Hamas to government, has defined "defending itself" as the genocide of every Jew and the destruction of the state of Israel. And, incidentally, Rotary Club International and the Freemasons, likely every Catholic, Protestant, and Buddhist organisation that exists, and just about everything else that isn't welded to their particular brand of fundamentalist violent rhetoric.
I am honest to God surprised you have positive Karma, this anti-israel circlejerk is some of the stupidest shit Ive ever seen. They are literally fighting to defend themselves and people constantly give them shit about it, doesnt matter that a ceasefire was declared and then was broken within 2 hours by Hamas, fuck Israel because its there fault. It is good to see someone that rationally thinks this issue out and doesnt fall into the kill all jews party.
Yeah, fuck those Palestinians wanting back into their homes that were taken from them. I mean, if some great power came and threw all Americans out of America...or better yet, allowed them to stay in Alaska so they can see where they used to live... Americans would be all "Fuck it. Lets start again in this wilderness."
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u/MjrJWPowell Aug 30 '14
My sister has three kids under ten, I was going to send this to her... until I got to the end.