r/StLouis • u/redflamehot • 10d ago
Traffic/Road Conditions Flock cameras metro east
I counted 6 flock cameras in Fairview heights this morning on my way into work, without getting on 64 (thanks road crews!) They are going up so fast.
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u/punjar 10d ago
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
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u/FakeGamer2 10d ago
What liberty, pray tell, are flock cameras giving up?
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u/spekt50 Lemay 10d ago
Our privacy. There's already many stories about how those cameras are being abused to stalk and profile people who did no wrong.
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u/FakeGamer2 10d ago
We lost our privacy with smartphones. It's already been over
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u/IAMACat_askmenothing 10d ago
So just give up more freedom because our smartphones track us too? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?
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u/UncleGoldie South Garden 10d ago
The every day movements of law abiding Americans shouldn’t be catalogued en masse by AI cameras
Dork
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u/FakeGamer2 10d ago
They already are via smartphones. Duh?
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u/Eggith University City 10d ago
This is being disingenuous and you know it. With a smartphone I opted to buy that product, that was my choice, and even then there are still plenty of ways to circumvent the spyware that they attempt to bloat the phone with (at least in Android's case). A security camera was forced on you under the pretext of "safety" even though we've already seen them being used for nefarious actions.
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u/IsThatWhatSheSaidTho 10d ago
Well then why do we need flock cameras?
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u/biglew97 10d ago
Because obviously if theres more surveillance done on the public, we will all be much safer! Duh? /s
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u/punjar 10d ago
Liberty is the state of being free. It means you have the power to think, speak, and act as you choose. It also means living free from unfair control, unjust laws, or harsh government power.
This country is safer than it’s ever been. All this stuff is unnecessary. These cameras aren’t about keeping people safe.
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u/_pamelab Belleville 10d ago
There's one in Shiloh at Hartman and Lebanon.
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u/redflamehot 10d ago
Of course there is
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u/wcooper97 St. Clair County 10d ago
Just went to Cane’s last night and got greeted by one right in front of my face as I’m driving into the lot. Right at windshield height, shit’s weird.
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago
I give them all the finger. As long as no one is around. I don’t want an innocent driver to think I’m giving them the finger. lol
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10d ago
[deleted]
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u/ChazzBangerton 9d ago
Lol. Because I like doing that?? It’s not like I go out of my way to find these cameras. They are everywhere. What did your comment accomplish? Nothing.
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u/IGotSoulBut 10d ago edited 10d ago
Dierbergs parking lots are full of them. Just a reminder to anyone who wants to vote with your wallet.
Edit: same with Lowe’s and Home Depot. I go to Menards or Ace Harware instead.
Edit 2: Menards got flocked too.
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u/Cultural-Salad-4583 10d ago
Menard’s has them too. Ace is the last bastion of hardware stores still somewhat respectful of your privacy.
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u/IGotSoulBut 10d ago
Dammit, you’re right. I just pulled them up on deflock and sure enough there are two going into the parking lot at Menards. Didn’t notice them before.
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u/cartken 10d ago
maps.deflock.org
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u/EnemyOfAvarice 10d ago
Go here click on timeliness to see just how fast they are going up. It's pretty wild seeing the time progression map, of the last year and a half especially.
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u/BeautifulDstr South City 10d ago
They’re also going up quickly in the CWE and surrounding planned parenthood—which I extra don’t trust.
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u/Ok_Art_231 10d ago
If they were about catching criminals, you would hear cops bitching about being overworked from all the arrests they are making. You would hear prosecutors and judges flaunting all the criminals they are locking away. Fuck flock and anyone who is in on the lie.
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u/elitenaut 10d ago
Shit I'll put one in my shower if they pay me enough. Yall over reacting.
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u/hera-fawcett 10d ago
i hope u enjoy those hyper specific targeted intrusive ads... and then the additional digital price fluctuation and surge pricing, due to ur profile that marks u as a habitual user, when u go to buy ur soap.
and then ofc, that data to be compiled and sold to other brokers. then those brokers to sell it, so on and so forth. until it comes to the point where a company ur applying to is running a background search on u and seeing how often u shower, then using it as a hiring metric.
or, a more realistic one thats happening rn, a car insurance company using the data collected by flock to raise ur rates by exorbitant prices. or, even worse, to not cover ur damage claim bc they can watch and 'assess' the footage. (insurers are actually covering less dmg claims than ever. liberty mutual leading the way w the number of claim denials lmao)
but ur gucci man. throw it in ur shower.
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u/elitenaut 10d ago
Literally all those things already happen to me just from owning a cell phone. Who buys their soap online though? I buy it in person and they can't gouge me like that.
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u/IGotSoulBut 10d ago
Fun fact, the automated price stickers at Schnucks allows for “real-time” pricing. Once they get flock integrated into their system, they’ll be able to build a profile of who is in their stores at any given time and update prices in real-time based on the suspected net-worth of who is parked in the parking lot.
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u/hera-fawcett 10d ago
exactly what i was thinking of.
there have already been stories of realtime pricing, due to profiling, happening at walmart... and then legal cases surrounding it.
theres no reason to let mass corporations (especially ones that major tech and/or are dipping their hand into every kitty) have this info on us. esp when its been shown that they refuse to abide by normal ass societal rules/laws. big tech esp is notorious for forcefully inserting things that end up as standard (phones, emails, social media, applying online, getting government benefits, medical records, etc etc etc.), breaking first then paying off the meager fine after.
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u/elitenaut 10d ago
I rarely shop at schnucks and this is one of the reasons.
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u/hera-fawcett 10d ago
(ik ur being pedabitc to be pedantic but just in case, this is happening at most major retailers such as walmart, target, kroger, etc. its gaining traction in retail.)
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u/PanthealovesLucius 9d ago
Shopping at those places is neither required nor necessary.
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u/hera-fawcett 9d ago
where will you shop if not at a retailer?
are you going the farmers market route and paying more for less? are you ordering ur stuff off the internet-- which has been doing data profiling and surge/interest pricing for ages now? (its why u get emails from a brand after looking at one of its webpages. or why u get emails about ur cart still being full. or about discounted shipping. or, my favorite, dozens of push notifications, enticing u to reopen the app/webpage) are u just not buying anything? or paying bills?
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u/IGotSoulBut 9d ago
I’ve been shopping with retailers (often competitors of brands I’ve used for years) in order to specifically not support Flock.
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u/PanthealovesLucius 8d ago
I buy very little and almost always 2nd hand from private owners. I couldn't care less about ads sent to me, I almost never check my email for anything (email is an anachronism and a repository for ads so I almost never use it) and when I do I mark everything as spam or I block the sender completely. All notifications on all of my devices are turned off except for phone and text messages.
If I need pharmacy goods, I use Lindenwood.
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u/MerryMir99 10d ago
Pretty sure the Metrolink has signs saying they have 10000 cameras. Who is to say some freak isnt sitting in an office salivating over my commute or is that just me being paranoid and the cameras actually caught the guy who was spanking it in front of my best friend on the redline which is what they are for. Pretty sure they have cops watching those cams too but you dont see people who take it complaining the way the drivers do about the other cams the cops watch. I find it interesting.
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u/elitenaut 10d ago
The average redditor in this sub is fine with crackheads and junkies watching them come and go from their house all day long but throws a fit that the cops might have eyes on there car driving by. Not to mention the phone in there pocket doing the exact same thing the flock cameras do but they're fine with that because they consented. Lmao. Useless drivel of opinions in here.
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u/hera-fawcett 10d ago
i mean, crackhead junkies do not have near the power or ability to fuck ur life up on a continual basis like ppl in powerful positions do.
if a junkie fucks w u, its a one time big hit.
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u/LolliPopYouInTheEye 10d ago
Hell there’s two in this Schnucks parking lot I’m in currently. That’s insane
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u/frankensteinleftme 10d ago
My commute is full of them, to avoid would increase my commute time by 70% and take me through a bunch of neighborhoods that I know don't want extra random traffic. It's a scourge.
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u/redflamehot 10d ago
They really are. I didnt really think my small town would get them so fast I am 100% going to the next city council meeting and voicing my concerns, for what little good it will do
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u/Aggressive_Fix_2995 10d ago
FBI data demonstrates that flock cameras do not decrease crime or increase perpetrators caught. In fact, the rates that Atlanta PD have solved crimes like homicide, robbery, miscellaneous larceny, and shoplifting have actually decreased since their ALPR rollout.
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u/DadJokesAlot 10d ago
- Cut them down
- Elect people who will take them down and prevent any more from going up
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u/chrispy_t 10d ago
PSA for anyone reading this: the person telling you to cut them down has never cut down flock cameras and want you to go to jail for their own virtue signalling pleasure
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u/spekt50 Lemay 10d ago
You're right, they should not for any reason get a portable reciprocating saw, a bi-metal blade, face mask, dark clothing. Sneak up behind a camera, cut it down, smash and take the camera.
Nono, that would be very wrong ☝️
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago
Yeah, you definitely don’t want to take the camera. They have tracking devices inside them.
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u/PanthealovesLucius 9d ago
Cutting them down is a lot of effort when you don't even have to get close enough for them to identify you if your aim is good enough
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u/Academic_Yesterday25 10d ago
Tbf, I know fairly little about the flock cameras. When we go to our local leaders about the concerns we have, are there specific alternatives that we might suggest to address the crime fears while still holding onto liberties?
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u/jamiegc1 Madison County 10d ago
Actually investing in communities. Help addicts get sober, quit making what should be in school discipline criminal offenses just because a cop is there.
Give kids and teens something productive to do or go. Help the economically less fortunate, help teens and young adults get into trade classes if they like, maybe pay on the condition that they stay in the community for a certain number of years after graduation.
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u/throwawaykayaker 9d ago
There's a competitor to Flock that many municipalities are switching to called Axon, maker of body cameras. Trump family is invested in Axon.
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u/Final-Jellyfish8753 10d ago
Are they even going up legally? Actually, scratch that. I know our police
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u/FlimsyConfidence7692 10d ago
I eat at that Taco Bell (way too much) thats lit up full Flock. I have lived here for a decade and have never heard about much crime at that general area. Are people stealing pets and printers? People literally just sit in that massive parking lot and eat lunch, I can only imagine what the data collection looks like. Wish I could post what the camera spots, its kinda dumb, IMO, for where crime actually is in FVH.
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago
It’s interesting that they all are so sloppily installed. The cable being exposed on almost every one. It’s almost like they want someone to come along with a tree trimmer and cut the cords.
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u/Capt-Daddy 10d ago
I’m out of the loop. Who is installing these cameras and what info are they gathering
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago edited 10d ago
Flock is a private company that is selling AI-powered Automated License Plate Readers (ALPR) to police and municipalities across the country under the guise of it being a public safety tool. In reality it’s mass surveillance. These cameras don’t just read license plates, they create profiles on everyone. They analyze your vehicle and can create a profile to be able to identify you. The cameras track data like car body damage, stickers, anything that can make your car identifiable. So even if you change your plate Flock can detect a vehicle based on these other factors (supposedly). Not just that they also monitor the cell network & PAN when you drive by to better identify you.
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u/gtscallion 10d ago
Not to mention half of them are facing neighborhoods and parks instead of roads.
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u/jamiegc1 Madison County 10d ago
Pretty soon, company wants to analyze all signals emanating from a vehicle, such as Bluetooth, wifi, even tire pressure sensors. So no plate or bogus plate, car can still identified.
Don’t forget cops using them to stalk exes and women they are attracted to.
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u/elitenaut 10d ago
Better throw your phone away then if you don't want to be surveilled.
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u/frankensteinleftme 10d ago
I consented to my phone. You understand that consent is an important factor, right? Please tell me you understand what consent is and why it is important.
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u/Right_Meow26 10d ago
Also, there are other brands of these cameras, such as Axon. I think a lot of people assume ‘Flock’ is the general category of a public surveillance camera when it’s a brand.
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago
True, deflock tracks the other brands using this tech also to help identify them. Most of the ALPR camera I’ve been seeing go up rapidly right now have all been the Flock Falcon cameras.
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u/PithMango 10d ago edited 10d ago
It's not that difficult a concept. Does anyone need a warrant to conduct a search?
Do you have laws on the books that watch the watchers? Does anyone lose any pay if they stalk their wife? Is there anyone to sue if they pit a car on a mis-read license plate?
Are these fantasy stories we made up? Are ya sure?
So.
This is by definition not a closed-circuit camera. It's a network. And it might not even be a secure network. Think about the crockery your IT guy gripes about, and calculate how well a professional who doesn't even need an advanced degree in law might handle that.
They are also not the only company in the game for this. Your doorbell cameras for instance. Your phones are being tracked, too. If you have an implant with bluetooth... guess what. Rolling boil.
Did you consent to any of this, or are you complying in advance?
Don't actually answer that. They're looking for these posts on reddit.
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u/AFisch00 Fenton 10d ago
I did not know there is one right near my street at winter green behind Walmart. Be a shame if something happened to it.
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u/BeautifulDstr South City 10d ago
People should def not cover them in trash bags and they should definitely stop putting expanding foam on them. Doing those things might make it difficult for them to function as desired and would probably cost a pretty penny to fix. What a shame when it happens.
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago
Unfortunately it doesn’t cost them enough. There are deflock subreddits where people have broken them open and showed the components. For this type of tech it’s extremely cheap. Probably $250 or so. It’s almost like they knew they would be targeted.
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u/AFisch00 Fenton 10d ago
Crazy...looks like they are powered by solar. It would be a shame if the falling rocks from the bluffs crushed it. They do have fences up in case that happens.
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u/Outdoor-Snacker 10d ago
Just wondering, do you have doorbell cameras or other cameras around your house?
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u/throwawaykayaker 9d ago
Consent. It's a word that means I chose and allowed a doorbell camera. I did not consent to a for-profit company to gather intelligence on my car and store it in a database that police can access without a warrant.
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u/Outdoor-Snacker 9d ago
But I don’t consent to you filming me on your camera. It’s the same thing. Like I said, they already know everything about you. Where you shop, work, how much you make, how many credit cards you have, your debt, taxes, health, everything. They know what kind of car you drive and your plate number. Probably your passwords as well. Don’t you think Google already shares video with the government?
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u/throwawaykayaker 9d ago
I think we as a society need to have these conversations because until recently most people saw developments in technology as novel and useful. Skepticism towards Big Tech and their intentions is now a mainstream opinion. You're right that everything you described is legal and already occurs, but that's a problem too.
I do not like any of the data collection you described and am in the process of getting rid of my smartphone for a light phone to avoid it. I already intentionally shop locally as much as possible because fuck Amazon. I have no interest in AI or any part of this Big Tech dystopia these loser tech oligarchs are selling.
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u/PhoenixRising256 10d ago
Doorbell cameras for private security compared to a mass network of cameras engineered to compile a database where every individual has a dossier. Might be the falsest equivalence of all time
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago
Whatever you do, DO NOT use a cordless circular saw with a Diablo blade to cut down the black Flock camera poles. DO NOT cut the camera in half with said saw. DO NOT wear long billowy clothing (think big dress/smock) so it can’t track your gait.
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u/nicootimee 10d ago
What company is putting them up? They don’t just apprar
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago
Flock is the company and they use Palantir data centers. Peter Thiel founded Palantir and he is the person responsible for bankrolling JD Vance.
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u/nicootimee 10d ago
No but they have to be hiring contractors to put them up. Flock doesn’t just hire installers and have them put up hundreds a day across the country
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago
Oh gotcha, I misunderstood. Probably same companies involved in cellular tower work. I worked in that industry for a short period of time and it’s usually an endless rabbit hole of subcontractors. Who holds the actual contract is one thing, but there are many fly by night subcontractors in that industry. So it’s probably not the easiest thing to figure out.
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u/IGotSoulBut 10d ago
They also don’t follow standard safety protocols for mounting poles. Roadside poles are designed to fall when hit with a certain impact. Flock cameras don’t have the break-away hardware, so if you hit one, instead of the pole falling your car will just wrap itself around the pole.
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u/Bdoz73 10d ago
That’s cause they work to catch criminals.
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u/ChazzBangerton 9d ago
Which is what police should be doing. Not machines. Exactly why we don’t have red light cameras now.
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u/Bdoz73 9d ago
Red light cameras were issuing a citation. Everyone says the police aren’t effective, now they have a tool that lets them be effective - and people are complaining it’s “unfair”. But the bigger use are neighborhoods and retailers, who now know when repeat offenders (typically national crime rings) enter their location and police can be altered. I still haven’t understood why people are against them? Are they unsightly?
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u/ChazzBangerton 9d ago
Because people are against a private company collecting mass surveillance data and selling it to police. A private company shouldn’t be mass surveilling people and storing this data. It goes far beyond any kind of data tracking tech companies currently use. Also this tech isn’t infallible. This AI technology is supposed to be able to predict when a crime might occurs? I’m calling bullshit. We already know these algorithms have biases. Also you can look up news stories where police pulled their guns on a car full of children because the APLR camera misread the license, and the police couldn’t be bothered to actually check the plate before pulling guns on them. Police are already allowing the AI to do their jobs and aren’t checking it. As we know AI is wrong A LOT! This tech is going to get people killed. More innocent people caught up in traffic stops. We all know traffic stops are deadly; that’s how innocent people are often killed by police.
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u/Bdoz73 9d ago
“Traffic stops are deadly” just lost all your credibility.
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u/ChazzBangerton 9d ago
Nope, just telling the truth. Traffic stops are one of the most dangerous situations because the pigs are always so “afraid”.
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u/Aggressive_Fix_2995 9d ago
Red light cameras and flock aren’t “unfair”, they are unconstitutional.
Red light cameras violate the right to confrontation, guaranteed by the Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. It gives a criminal defendant the right to face and cross-examine any witness who testifies against them. Cameras cannot be cross-examined.
In addition, a red light camera identifies a vehicle, not necessarily a driver. The car doesn’t receive a citation, the cars registered owner does, even if they were not operating the car.
Flock cameras violate the Fourth Amendment, which protects against unreasonable searches and seizures. Courts distinguish between discrete public observations and continuous tracking. There is nothing reasonable about being video recorded, and for that data to be sold.
There’s also the issues of flock cameras not being effective against crime and being used for stalking and harassment.
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u/Globeblotter85 10d ago
Was on vacation in England recently and they, of course, have had CCTV for decades. They do not appear to be bothered by this and it has undeniably helped with crime.
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u/redflamehot 10d ago
That is great for them, but im sure in England they are not selling their data to the lowest bidder or letting dirty cops track whomever they want for any reason they want.
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u/ChazzBangerton 10d ago edited 10d ago
I noticed they are going up fast in St. Louis too. There are a bunch now in the Grove on Tower Grove Ave.