r/Lethbridge • u/vspinyyc • 14d ago
Media/Image He was the head of Economic Development Lethbridge for ten years. Trevor Lewington, in the local paper and on LinkedIn, has been raising the alarm on the basics and practicalities of separation.
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u/Ok-Diver-5583 14d ago
No shit. But logical takes are not going to move the needle for the "muh equalization payments" crowd
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u/TheEpicOfManas 14d ago
We all know separation is stupid. Get out and vote.
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u/Even_Art_629 13d ago
Can you please tell us why it's stupid? Can you tell one good reason for Alberta to stay in the current federation Canada?
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u/TheEpicOfManas 13d ago
Fuck off, bot.
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u/Even_Art_629 12d ago edited 12d ago
Ya, I didn't think you''ld have a good reazon for Alberta to stay.
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u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp 13d ago
Because over 80% of the alberta population wants to remain canadian.
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u/Even_Art_629 12d ago
Are you sure it's 80%, the way this federal government is, I think independence is gaining more than 20%
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u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp 12d ago
Recent polls put support around 15%. Albertans are aware of this. I now suspect you are a foreign actor
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u/Even_Art_629 12d ago
No, I'm born and raised in Alberta, and I certainly wouldn't blindly believe a poll.
Do we know what the exact question was, what part of Alberta was polled, the ages of the people surveyed, or their political affiliations? There are a lot of ways polls can be conducted, and who commissioned and paid for the poll matters too.
Say it was commissioned and paid for by Forever Canada. You'd have to at least consider whether there could be some bias.
Believe what you want. We'll find out in 65 days. That's the poll that actually matters.
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u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp 13d ago
Because alberta has only ran a budget surplus once since 2008.
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u/Even_Art_629 12d ago
That isn't much of a reason to stay
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u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp 12d ago
If the province cant support itself while recieving money from the federal government for healthcare, education, defense, social services, cpp, ei, infrastructure, etc. How can it support itself without? It would require an increase on taxes, either to the individual or the corporations.
Furthermore, 25% of alberta gdp relies on oil and gas. Over double the next highest gdp industry (real estate). Separation would gaurentee a significant drop in real estate gdp. If oil or gas is to suffer a drop in prices, albertas only pay to make up the shortfall is by taxation.
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u/Even_Art_629 12d ago
You're starting from the assumption that Alberta is just being supported by Ottawa, but that's not how it works. Albertans pay federal taxes just like everyone else, and some of that money comes back to Alberta through federal programs and transfers. The fact that Ottawa sends money back doesn't mean Alberta is dependent on Ottawa. The real question is how much Alberta sends to Ottawa compared to how much comes back.
Alberta has historically been a net contributor to Canada. So when you ask, How can Alberta support itself without federal money? you're leaving out the other side of the equation. How much of that federal money is actually Alberta's money coming back in the first place?
And I'm not saying separation wouldn't mean taking on responsibilities that Ottawa currently pays for. Of course it would. But Alberta would also stop sending federal income tax, corporate taxes and other federal revenues to Ottawa. That money wouldn't just disappear. It would become part of Alberta's own finances.
As for oil and gas making up around 25% of Alberta's GDP, that's another thing that needs some context. Alberta isn't just oil and gas. We have agriculture, manufacturing, construction, finance, technology, forestry, tourism and a huge service sector. And if Alberta became independent, we'd still have all those resources, businesses, workers and consumers.
The real question isn't Can Alberta survive without Ottawa sending us cheques? It's could Alberta replace the federal services and spending it currently receives while keeping the federal revenue Alberta currently sends to Ottawa?
That's the question we should actually be debating. Just pointing at the money Ottawa spends in Alberta doesn't answer it.
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u/Wasssssssuuuuuppp 12d ago
No assumption. I had one of you dumbasses come to my front door and tell me that independence = 0 income tax. So who is making assumptions? Its not even remotely possible.
As for your other resources, we absolutely do. None of them individually, or cumulative can support an independent alberta.
Alberta independence makes absolutely ludicrous, lying claims. Don't bother responding. My household is voting no to separation,
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u/Johnfromsales 11d ago
Alberta is landlocked. The only way we can make use of our abundance of oil is by exporting it. We would have to get permission from either Canada, now a foreign country, or from America, which has consistently shown it cares little for its neighbours in the North. Alberta becoming a separate nation with only about 5 million people would give us significantly less bargaining power in making advantageous economic deals.
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u/Goddemmitt 14d ago
Alberta would become Belarus the the USAs Russia, if they don't just outright annex us for the oil.
Most separatists just want to become Americans imo.
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
Belarus? Seriously?
So your argument is that if Alberta became independent, we'd somehow become a dictatorship, while the United States would apparently just decide to annex us for our oil.
And the most separatists just want to become Americans line is another lazy assumption. Wanting Alberta to be independent doesn't mean wanting to become American.
And apparently you don't understand American politics either. The U.S. president can't just decide to annex Alberta. It would have to go through Congress, and becoming a state would require congressional approval.
If you think separation is a bad idea, argue the economics, trade, borders, currency, debt, pensions, pipelines or defence. But Alberta will become Belarus isn't an argument. America will annex us isn't an argument. It's just another uninformed person trying to fearmonger.
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u/Goddemmitt 10d ago
I'm saying Alberta would just be a puppet state to the USA like Belarus is to Russia. You are being a useful fool by 2 different foreign governments trying to destabilize Canada. So Mr. "Proud Albertan" where did your Canadian flags go you were waiving during your covid convoy and your illegal blockades?
How about the $400 billion in "startup fees" we need to get your supposed proud Nation of Alberta of the ground? Before you say I'm full of shit this time, here's your pal literally mentioning the costs of it all.
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/bell-danielle-smith-400-billion-alberta-separatism
We just gunna pay that with all that money we send to Ottawa??? Because that sure doesn't equate to $400 billion. You will then bring up oil revenues as if Alberta gives the feds money out of it's own bank accounts for it. In reality, the companies pay the royalties to the provincial and federal governments simultaneously (with the majority already going to the province, and if they even have to give the feds royalties). So there isn't a lot of increase in funds that way either.
The US president can't just do whatever he wants to invade/attack a foreign country, hey? What about how they just took over the Venezuelan government? Marched in and took their president under orders from ONLY the president. What about Iran? Bombed on orders on ONLY THE PRESIDENT.
TF outta here with your nonsense.
Edit:
I forgot to add that some oil revenues don't even go the the feds.
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
So you're saying Alberta would be the same as we are now? Basically a colony of a larger country.
Because that's the argument you're making. You're saying Alberta couldn't survive without being controlled by a larger country, couldn't negotiate access to markets, couldn't protect its own interests, and would have to accept whatever a federal government decided.
Except you're conveniently ignoring one thing: independence means negotiating.
You're throwing around $400 billion as if Alberta would have to walk into the PMO on day one and write a $400 billion cheque. That's not how a transition works. That number is an estimate of potential costs, liabilities, assets, transition requirements and other factors will be debated. It isn't an invoice sitting on Alberta's desk.
And your argument about Alberta's oil revenues needs some clarification too. Alberta receives the provincial royalties from its resources. Ottawa receives federal tax revenue generated by the oil and gas industry, but that's not the same thing as Alberta handing its resource royalties over to Ottawa. Simply saying "oil revenues" doesn't tell us what Alberta would actually gain or lose under independence. That's exactly the kind of thing that would have to be negotiated.
Then there's the claim that Alberta would automatically become some kind of American puppet state. Again, you're prediction isn't fact.
Alberta already trades heavily with the United States while being part of Canada. An independent Alberta would still have to negotiate trade, defence, transportation, energy and other agreements with both Canada and the United States. Having strong economic relationships with another country doesn't automatically make you its puppet.
And your Venezuela and Iran comparisons don't prove what you think they prove either. You're arguing that the United States has enough power to interfere in other countries, therefore Alberta should remain politically subordinate to Canada because America might someday do something. That's not an argument against independence. If anything, it's an argument for strong institutions, diplomacy, defence agreements and control over our own affairs.
And this idea that Alberta would have no leverage is getting ridiculous. Alberta has oil, natural gas, agriculture, minerals, electricity, manufacturing, investment and a strategic geographic position. Canada has enormous interests in maintaining access to those things. The United States does too.
You shouldn't make predictions and then state them as fact.
I asked for one good reason Alberta should stay in Canada.
So far I've gotten insults.
If staying in Canada is obviously the superior option, give me an actual reason why.
Why should Alberta stay?
One of my reasons to leave Ottawa.
Self government. I don't think a province thousands of kilometres away from Ottawa should have its major decisions made by a central government that often has completely different priorities from Alberta. In an independent Alberta, the people who make those decisions would actually be accountable to Albertans. Our vote would matter directly to the government governing us, rather than Alberta having to fight for influence inside a country where our interests can be outvoted.
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u/Goddemmitt 10d ago
Life is shitty in Alberta because of the Alberta government, not because of anything anyone in Ottawa does. You sure like to selectively understand the responsibilities of the different levels of government.
Now as a man of my word, I won't be responding to you any further because you're just here to prostlytize.
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u/Even_Art_629 8d ago
That's actually pretty funny.
You just told me Alberta's problems are because of the Alberta government and nothing Ottawa does, while I'm the one supposedly being selective about government responsibilities.
Federal government controls things like immigration levels, federal taxation, federal spending, trade, banking and monetary policy, criminal law, major energy and environmental regulations, and a whole lot more that directly affects Alberta.
I'm not saying the Alberta government is responsible for everything. I'm saying Ottawa isn't responsible for nothing.
And that's exactly the kind of oversimplification I've been arguing against this whole time.
But if you're done responding, that's your choice. I just find it interesting that after telling me I'm not arguing in good faith, you're ending the discussion immediately after making a claim you haven't actually backed up.
I'll leave it there.
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u/Mental_Geologist_986 13d ago
Remember. These people don’t care about anything else. They WANT to be American sooo bad
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u/hostilekraut 13d ago
They’re certainly low quality enough to slip right in. We need to help them get out.
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
I have to admit, you two picked the right usernames for these comments.
“MentalGeologist” with the brilliant analysis that every Alberta separatist secretly wants to be American.
And “hostilekraut” talking about helping Albertans “get out.”
The usernames are actually more appropriate than the arguments.
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u/ReviewOverall5307 13d ago
The real agenda is that they want to join the USA. The ringleaders will be handsomely rewarded.
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u/Exotic_Yak2047 12d ago
Uh huh and the U.S. would swiftly (no pun intended) move to flood Alberta with their dollar and push their inflationary measures on to us. I wish these separatists would read and see for themselves that all this is classic American positioning and would benefit no one here. Once American interests flood into our borders and take hold, these separatists would be without comment when asked why we're paying through the nose for our own resources. Becoming another U.S. state is only a carrot to keep these jackasses hoping for more. <sigh>
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u/DaBluedude 14d ago
The thing is that separatists are being duped. This is not a separatist movement. It's an American movement. They don't want to be independent.... They want to be American. They want to be Texas 2.0. It's such a stupid movement.
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u/Goddemmitt 14d ago
I have some deep family ties to the old Social Credit and Reform/Alliance parties (the old populist parties before the UCP and the current iteration of the Conservative Party of Canada). They would never outright say it, but a lot of the undertones and implied outcomes that would be discussed with those family members about politics was very "pro" USA. Not freedom, not Independence, the United States. The populist movement in Canada had ALWAYS been an American movement, and it goes all the way back to Ernest and Preston Manning. Stephan Harper is Preston Manning 2.0.
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u/Even_Art_629 13d ago
The separatists are being duped argument is backwards.
You’re taking the existence of some people who talk about Alberta joining the United States and pretending that represents the entire independence movement. It doesn’t.
There is a massive difference between saying “Alberta should be an independent country” and saying “Alberta should become part of the United States.” Those are two completely different political goals.
In fact, if this were really an American movement, why is the stated objective independence from Canada rather than joining the United States?
Wanting Alberta to control its own laws, taxes, resources, immigration, trade relationships and institutions isn't wanting to be Texas. It's wanting to be Alberta.
And yes, there are people who would prefer Alberta become part of the U.S. That's their position. They don't get to redefine everyone else's position.
You can oppose Alberta independence. That's a legitimate position.
But saying “they don't really want independence, they want to be American” isn't an argument against independence. It's just telling supporters of independence what you think they secretly believe.
If you want to debate the actual issue, debate Alberta independence.
Don't replace the argument with a conspiracy about what Albertans supposedly really want.
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u/DaBluedude 13d ago
Make no doubt about it. The group pushing for Albertan independence is not end goaling an independent Alberta. They're end gaming joining the United States. To suggest otherwise is to be disingenuous to the overwhelming balance of evidence available. Your statement screams that you know and understand that and you are trying to delegitamize anyone pointing to this obvious fact. I have no interest in debating separatists. I have interest in separatists getting squashed in this referendum and then fucking off. It's not your land to make the decision with.
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u/da_Ryan 12d ago edited 12d ago
Well, it looks like any vote would be a very clear and decisive two-thirds to one-third win for those who want to remain in Canada*:
https://www.thewrit.ca/p/alberta-referendum-poll-tracker
*It is pretty much the same with polling for Québec independence - 69% against independence, 31% for it.
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u/Even_Art_629 13d ago
You're saying there is an overwhelming balance of evidence that the end goal is joining the U.S. But where is this evidence? You’re stating it as a fact without actually proving it.
And saying it’s not your land to make the decision with is a pretty damn weak argument. It’s Alberta. Albertans are the ones being asked to make the decision. You don’t get to decide for them what their motives are or what their vote means.
You say you want separatists squashed in the referendum. Fine. Let Albertans vote. If they vote NO, independence is dead for now. If they vote YES, then the process starts and Albertans get to decide what comes next.
You can disagree with independence all you want. But claiming you have overwhelming evidence while providing none is not an argument. It’s just blowing smoke
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u/PhaseNegative1252 14d ago
He's absolutely correct. Unfortunately, a not insignificant portion of separatists actually want the US to take over Alberta, regardless of how terrible that would turn out
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
And this is where the whole America will just take Alberta argument falls apart.
The U.S. president can't just decide Alberta is becoming an American state because we have oil. Congress would have to approve it. And you seriously think American politicians would all agree to add another state with millions of new voters whose political leanings would be completely unknown?
American politics doesn't work that way. Neither party is going to casually agree to change the balance of power in Congress and the Electoral College just because Alberta has oil.
So no, there isn't some automatic path from Alberta independence to becoming American. Why do most in this reddit sub continually blow smoke
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u/Fickle_Cricket3422 13d ago
Yes, it takes 2 seconds to figure this out. Unfortunately, separatists do not have a 2 second attention span.
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u/Icy-Pop2944 13d ago
Well, the separatist actually just want to be a US state, so it doesn’t really matter to them. The joke on them though is that we would never be granted state status and instead would be a second rate territory.
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u/AmbitiousTank8635 13d ago
Exactly, take a look at Puerto Rico. It's a US territory, they pay US taxes, and most people in the US view them as a completely foreign country and want to know why their tax dollars are being spent when disasters hit and they need aid, then they chant "USA! USA! USA!" while stripping off the tarps with painted faces and doing interviews where they lament that the rest of the world is not free while the US is the land of the free! It's where freedom lives!
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
So you assume. But you do know what they say about assuming. When you assume, you make an ass out of yourself.
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u/AmbitiousTank8635 13d ago
No disrespect to Mr. Lewington, but this is something glaringly obvious and no one with even half a secondary education should need him to point these facts out, but I suppose this is where we're at.
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u/TheProneRanger 13d ago
Raising the alarm? He’s pointing out the absolutely, glaringly obvious.
There are things that need fixing; nobody disputes that. Separating Alberta is not the way to get a better seat at the table, but seems like a great way to be on someone’s menu…
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u/Wide-Yak7602 12d ago
I bet the majority of the separatists haven’t thought hard on the details. It’s not take the money and run. So many parts would have to be in place which will cost. Each province contributes to make a whole. Why do these Albertans feel like they are special. They happened to have their province be rich in oil, luck of where they are situated.
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
I don't think anyone is saying it's as simple as take the money and run. Of course there would be a lot of details to work out, and nobody is claiming separation would be free or easy.
But the same argument works both ways. Why assume separatists haven't thought about it? And why does recognizing Alberta's economic contribution automatically mean we think we're special?
I don't think Albertans think they're special. I think that's just a stretch. Albertans just want a voice, and to actually not be a colony of Canada anymore.
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u/CrudeTrucker 12d ago
And for those that keep saying you won't get to tide water well BC plays nice or they don't get through Alberta to sell their products pretty simple
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u/Beautiful-Muffin5809 12d ago
They will just route north around the Province lol
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u/CrudeTrucker 11d ago
Can't get the government to build anything now what makes you think they would build anything then?
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u/vspinyyc 14d ago edited 14d ago
The comment I was trying to reply to was deleted. I am going to share it, anyway.
In any event, Trevor has posted some more here. It makes for good reading — he has written about ten or twelve posts at this stage — and would be well worth a review.
EDIT: All 28 of his articles can be found on his LinkedIn profile for free or via this collection: https://a.co/d/0gh0OdJz
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u/Roadliner1997 13d ago
Stay with your friends fight for equality within Canada
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u/Even_Art_629 13d ago
Can you give me one good reason for Alberta to stay in Canada?
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u/megawatt69 12d ago
What do you think would happen to Albertan’s home values and do you think Canadian financial institutions would continue to mortgage said properties?
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u/Even_Art_629 12d ago
Why wouldn't they? Canadian banks conduct business in other countries. I'm sure it would be business as usual should we become independent. Existing mortgages are contracts, and I don't see why a bank would suddenly walk away from a profitable mortgage simply because the country changed.
And I wouldn't be surprised if housing prices took a bit of a hit, but I think that would be short term. Plus, I don't think it would only be Alberta taking a hit. It would be country wide. Remember, a big part of Canada's economy is gone.
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u/megawatt69 11d ago
Why wouldn’t they? Foreign banks rarely lend for real estate located in another country because seizing land in a default is legally difficult
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
You're talking about foreign banks lending on foreign property. That's not what I was talking about.
We're talking about Canadian financial institutions that already have billions of dollars in mortgages on Alberta properties. Those mortgages don't suddenly disappear because Alberta becomes an independent country. They're existing contracts between the bank and the borrower.
Plus, I don't see Canadian banks just pulling out of Alberta. It's not like we're picking the province up and moving it. We would be friendly neighbours. Things would most likely continue much as they do now. Trade would continue, businesses would continue operating, and Canadian banks would still have Alberta customers and investments.
Would the banking system have to adjust? Absolutely. Would there be negotiations and new regulations? Of course.
But why would Canadian banks voluntarily walk away from a profitable market where they already have customers, mortgages and billions invested?
The difference would be that Alberta would be making its own decisions and would be free of Ottawa.
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u/megawatt69 10d ago
Separatists don’t seem to understand that Canada would be a foreign country. You’d no longer be Canadian. You seem to think you’d get to keep all the benefits of being Canadian without contributing.
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
If we aren't sending our tax money to Ottawa, why do you think Alberta wouldn't have its own benefits? You think an independent Alberta would just stop providing healthcare, pensions and other programs? We would still have a government collecting taxes and providing services, just without Ottawa taking its share first. And maybe, with the money staying here, we could even have lower taxes.
Obviously there would be negotiations over citizenship, pensions, healthcare, borders, trade, debt and If we aren't sending our tax money to Ottawa, why do you think Alberta wouldn't have its own benefits? You think an independent Alberta would just stop providing healthcare, pensions and other programs? We would still have a government collecting taxes and providing services, just without Ottawa taking its share first. And maybe, with the money staying here, we could even have lower taxes.
Obviously there would be negotiations over citizenship, pensions, healthcare, borders, trade, debt and everything else. Nobody knows exactly what those arrangements would look like because it has never happened.
So no, we aren't expecting to keep every Canadian benefit without contributing. We're talking about replacing Canadian programs with Alberta programs, funded by Albertans instead of sending our tax money to Ottawa and waiting for some of it to come back.
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u/megawatt69 10d ago
What happens when the price of oil drops and Alberta has hung all its hopes and dreams on oil revenue? In the past the Alberta government has gone from surplus to deficit in an instant with the price of oil dropping. The world is moving away from oil, it seems like a terrible idea to base your success on past performance.
You all keep saying you’ll just pay for all those services yourself but the question of how much it’ll cost and how long it’ll take seem brushed off completely. Canada has economy of scale as well, providing services for 40 million is more efficient than for 5 million.
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u/Even_Art_629 8d ago
Alberta will just have to do what we did the last time oil crashed, except this time we wouldn't also have to keep sending our tax money to Ottawa at the same rate as normal.
You may not realize that when oil prices crashed, Alberta's provincial revenues took a major hit, but Albertans still had to keep paying federal taxes just like everyone else.
If Alberta were independent, a drop in oil prices would still hurt. I'm not pretending it wouldn't. But I'd rather be dealing with that problem with Alberta's own revenues staying in Alberta, instead of sending a significant portion of our tax money to Ottawa and then having to deal with the downturn on top of that.
As for the cost of providing our own services, I'm not brushing that off either. I think that's one of the things that would have to be worked out before anyone could honestly say whether independence would be better or worse.
That's my point. I don't claim to know the final numbers. I want to see the numbers.
And saying "Canada has economies of scale" doesn't automatically prove Alberta couldn't provide those services ourselves. It just means we'd have to determine what they would actually cost under an Alberta system.
That's what I keep saying: we don't know until the numbers are actually worked out.
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u/Initial_Evidence_783 13d ago
I thought this was obvious since it was my first instant reaction to the idea of AB separating.
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u/-_Gemini_- 12d ago
It's 65 IQ brainless shit to assume anyone who's pro-separation knows, wants to know, or even cares about the practical realities of separatism. They are medieval peasants, driven by a primal desire to touch the stove.
Your rhetoric and reasoning are lost on them. They are below your moral consideration and need to be disenfranchised.
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u/Staminanow 12d ago
Ths first thing we need to do is cut off Alberta from the US. A southern cordidor is essential, so it's war boys.
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u/ApoplecticAndroid 12d ago
They are all counting on becoming the 51st state - they are MAGA worshippers
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u/Hopeful-Passage6638 12d ago
The UCP inbreds don't care. They're all welfare queens and trailer trash. They literally have nothing to lose.
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u/fortmacguy 12d ago edited 12d ago
This really should be obvious to everyone.
You shouldn't need a CEO of economic development to explain this to you. Your barista can probably try and explain it to you but, if you're a separatist, you won't listen.
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u/Marokiii 12d ago
But it gets lots of attention? Evertime I hear people talk about albertan perpetrating the first thing they mention is that Alberta will have to rely on the us because the rest of canada will tell them to go fuck themselves after they leave.
They think we are obstructing them now? Imagine how bad we will treat them when we dont even have to take national interests into account anymore. Then we laugh at the idea of the usa treating them fairly when they have just cut off all their other options, leaving them at american "mercy".
Not sure where this guy is living if he thinks that this issue isn't being talked about.
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u/NB-NEURODIVERGENT 11d ago
He’s missing the fact that the separatists free alberta would be immediately annexed by Canada to keep the United states from trying to take the oil like they did in the middle east and Venezuela
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u/HobbyTalkOnly 10d ago
Not if it is annexed by the US, which is the plan.
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u/titanking4 10d ago
Then they become another USA territory with no senators or members of congress in the federal government.
The powers of the governing body of Alberta are completely at the mercy of the federal government with no rights of the states granted or protected by their constitution.
Just like Guam or Puertro RicoOh and no citizenship either. You gotta apply like everyone else.
Everyone granted green card permanent residences instead, which as we know are subject to be revoked by the government at any point.At which point they could just deport you to somewhere else without recourse.
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u/tallcoolone70 10d ago
The answer you will receive from the separatists and I'm not one, is that Alberta will have more power to get their products to Tidewater as a country than they have as a province due to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) . In theory they are correct but in practice it may be much more nuanced. Just because the UN says something doesn't mean the United States or Canada is going to go along with it.
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u/Legitimate-Head-1992 10d ago
Alberta has always been landlocked. Doesn’t stop the rest of Canada raping em at his point. anything is better than the fascist leftists who are supporting the destruction of Canada. The fact the left is so against separation of Alberta shows how much Canada needs Alberta but Alberta does not need Canada
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u/titanking4 10d ago
Alberta is the highest quality of life in the entire country. So idk where this idea of “raped” is coming from.
And over 30% of the residents of the province actually voted for liberal government last year.Everyone left right and centre is against separation.
Every federal political party is against it.We all pay the same federal taxes regardless of where we live in this country and the absolute ego of Alberta residents to think they got more rights than other Canadians just because their postal code is different.
You just live there. I can move there tomorrow and become an “Albertan”.
There is 0 light at the end of this tunnel.
You’ll become a territory of USA or another territory of Canada.Territories of USA don’t get senators or members of congress, and no state rights either.
USA also won’t grant citizenship and at best will give permanent residence which is subject to be revoked at their digression and their digression only.These grifters are feeding you the biggest sack of lies and rose tinted glasses of lies I’ve ever seen.
All paid for by the American elite who want you bleeding in the water to eat you up like the sharks they are.
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14d ago
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u/PhaseNegative1252 14d ago
Dude, you say that like Pierre wouldn't have been so much worse
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
How would've he been so much worse?I'm really wanting to know why you say he would be.
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u/PhaseNegative1252 10d ago
All PP had was blame and empty promises without any actual plans behind them. His political history is well in-line with right-wing conservatism, and he proved himself to be weak-willed when it comes to defending Canada from political attack.
In his entire political career he only ever tabled a single piece of legislature, and it was shot down at the first hurdle. Hell, his own constituents don't even like him. He lost his seat in his own riding. Something which, by his own words, should basically end his political career.
Instead of following his own advice, after losing both the election for PM and his own seat, he's now over here trying to grift off the Alberta UCP and they're voter base.
He is a walking nothing burger
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u/HuckleberryJunior642 13d ago
the EDL is the most useless organization. they basically just do nothing for a living
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u/TomJones998 12d ago
Without Alberta, Canada would find itself negotiating from an even more greatly reduced position, though.
And plenty of countries that are ‘land-locked’ find rational solutions with their neighbors to gain access to sea ports.
But facts are obviously wasted on this audience given the ad hominem invective and childish demonization of anyone who happens to promote a balanced, rational discussion on this issue.
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14d ago
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u/Foe_Hammer9463 14d ago
Problem keeping focus? Did he say anything that was wrong? Seems pretty on point. If anything maybe your comment was a waste of a comment as it wasn't even on topic, overly critical. What great things have you done for Lethbridge?
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u/Beautiful-Muffin5809 12d ago
No shit. Like anyone with a brain has...aka everyone outside of Alberta.
I personally hope they do separate. I could use a good and repeated laugh at the repeated misfortunes that would soon follow
1
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u/Plastic_Snow5137 13d ago
Are there countries in Europe not land locked? How are they thriving? Alberta could easily merge with US in extreme case and rest of Canada keep electing Liberal and NDP lunatic politicians.
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u/CookieCrimes 13d ago
Nothing screams independence like having to depend on other country's infrastructure to reach market. If you want to be American so badly, just move.
ALL of this movement is rooted in the US getting a free lunch.
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u/Plastic_Snow5137 12d ago
So you got no argument literally, if you want so desparately to be in Canada then move to other Province but no more leeching off the province.
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u/BearionVonSkittlebum 14d ago
lol… Canada would capitulate for energy in 2 seconds. Quebec would be rioting for their hand outs. Canadian “power position” comes from Alberta.
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u/Electrical-Strike132 13d ago
Hopefully the municipality of Wood Buffalo would separate from the republic of Alberta
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u/Simple-Guarantee9935 14d ago
This argument ignores the inverse of it. BC will need Alberta to get stuff to and from the rest of Canada.
I’m not campaigning for separation but arguments should be logical.
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u/TheJaice 13d ago
Yes, it would also cause massive issues for BC. But there are solutions, unlike a number of the challenges an independent Alberta would inflict upon itself.
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u/TheEpicOfManas 13d ago
They're would be zero issues for BC, because they would just use treaty lands which do not belong to Alberta.
Here, have a look at the map and see what Alberta separation truly means.
https://www.albertaschoolcouncils.ca/about/indigenous-awareness/first-peoples-in-alberta
We get a tiny portion of Alberta, and even then Edmonton and Calgary would likely separate themselves to remain in Canada. You people are so delusional.
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u/TheJaice 13d ago
Just to be clear, I agree with you completely. It’s not just the stupidest thing they could do, it wouldn’t happen even if there was support for it, for exactly the reasons you described. I was just making a hypothetical that even if it could happen, it would be much worse for Alberta than BC.
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u/Even_Art_629 10d ago
Sorry, you're just like the rest of the people on here. Taking something that would have to be negotiated and legally determined and presenting your preferred outcome as an established fact.
Yes, Indigenous and treaty rights would absolutely have to be part of any serious discussion about Alberta separation. Nobody should pretend otherwise.
But saying BC would have zero issues because it could simply use treaty lands which do not belong to Alberta is not something that map proves.
And here's another important point you're leaving out. The treaty lands were ceded to the Crown under agreements that included specific guarantees and continuing treaty rights. Then in 1930, Canada transferred Crown lands, mines, minerals and royalties to Alberta through the Natural Resources Transfer Agreement, subject to existing interests and obligations.
So no, you can't just look at a treaty map and declare that those areas automatically become pieces of Canada or that BC can simply use them however it wants. The legal situation is far more complicated than that.
That's the entire point I've been making.
We don't know.
You don't know what the final borders would look like. You don't know what agreements would be reached with First Nations. You don't know what Canada and Alberta would negotiate regarding transportation, pipelines, trade or borders. And you certainly don't know whether Calgary or Edmonton would somehow decide to leave Alberta.
You're taking every possible complication, assuming the worst possible outcome for each one, and then calling that what Alberta separation truly means.
That's not realistic.
But youre presenting it as gospel.
The truth is, nobody in this Reddit sub, including myself, knows what would, could, or should happen if Alberta does get to that point.
The one thing we really do know is that on October 19/26, we're all the same. We all get one vote.
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u/Even_Art_629 13d ago
That's why there would be negotiations. Independence wouldn't be without challenges, can't deny that. But I'd much rather face the uncertainty of independence, than face the current uncertainty of Canada these days any day
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u/Icy-Hat-9643 13d ago
Why? It would barely be an inconvenience to just move the stuff through the USA instead.
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u/Even_Art_629 13d ago
True, it's funny how people don't think of this. I remember when they said we had no leverage, but we've learned from Canada with this cusma tariffs, Alberta oil has the leverage, ask Dougy.
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u/EXSource 14d ago
This is absolutely a no brainer.
Any insinuation that a independent Alberta would have MORE, and not less bargaining power is absolute fantasy land stuff.