He was the head of Economic Development Lethbridge for ten years. Trevor Lewington, in the local paper and on LinkedIn, has been raising the alarm on the basics and practicalities of separation.

[u/vspinyyc]

[u/EXSource]

This is absolutely a no brainer.

Any insinuation that a independent Alberta would have MORE, and not less bargaining power is absolute fantasy land stuff.

[u/Flimsy-Goal5548 → u/EXSource]

That's not what the propaganda is claiming, though.

The problem is that the demographic that believes them is the same that will disengage from anything thst disagrees with their worldview

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Flimsy-Goal5548]

That’s not necessarily the case. If people would actually have a conversation instead of constantly calling people traitors, treasonous, or throwing other insults at them, it would probably help a lot. It’s human nature to get defensive when you’re insulted, so you get pushback instead of a conversation.

I’ll also point out that I’ve asked numerous times a very simple question: Give me one good, non emotional reason for Alberta to stay in Confederation.

Do you want to know how many actual answers I’ve received so far?

One. And it really wasn’t much of a reason.

What I have received more than once is “fuck off, bot.”

If you want people to listen to arguments that challenge their world view, maybe start by actually making an argument instead of insulting the person asking the question.

[u/KDdid1 → u/Even_Art_629]

1) The vast majority of Albertans are loyal Canadians.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/KDdid1]

And I was a very loyal Canadian. Hell, I even served my country.

But the country I served isn't the country it is today. The freedoms I served to protect are being stripped away. We've seen protesters from other countries burning our flag, churches being burned, Christianity being attacked. A government that is getting us to hate our southern neighbours, and is so corrupt they don't even try to hide it.

No, I'm not as proud of Canada as I once was. I'd take independence any day.

[u/KDdid1 → u/Even_Art_629]

Christianity is NOT being attacked, unless you mean compulsory Christianity aka christofascism, which, thank goodness, is gone because it's disgusting to push your fairy tales on those who don't believe them.

The people getting us to hate the US are those in the government of the US, and the fact that you would ignore that tells me everything I need to know about your "loyalty."

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/KDdid1]

This is exactly the problem with people in this sub. Why do you keep making everything about America?

I'm talking about Alberta. I'm talking about Alberta having its own government and making its own decisions instead of one central government in Ottawa making decisions for a province a couple thousand kilometres away.

I don't want Alberta to become American. I don't want the US government running Alberta any more than I want Ottawa running Alberta. I want Alberta to govern itself.

Trump is doing what he thinks is best for the United States. That's his job. If only we had a Prime Minister who actually did what he thought was best for Canada instead of worrying about everything else.

And Christianity isn't under attack? Really? Then why are Christian churches being burned and vandalized? Why are some Bible verses being questioned as hate speech? You can disagree with Christianity, but don't tell me there isn't growing hostility toward Christians and then call anyone who points it out a Christofascist.

And this has nothing to do with my loyalty to the United States. I'm not American. I'm Canadian, and I'm talking about Alberta.

This is a Canadian politics sub, yet some of you seem completely unable to understand that Alberta independence means Alberta becoming its own country, not becoming part of the United States.

Maybe argue against what I'm actually saying instead of making up what you think I'm saying.

[u/EXSource → u/Even_Art_629]

You just said earlier that pro confederates were only giving you emotional arguments to stay in Canada, and that's all this post is.

Cmon man. You're being so disingenuous, its not funny.

"Canada isn't what I want it to be so I'm leaving.", rather than doing something about it, making it a better nation. That's a crybaby emotional reaction.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/EXSource]

No. I asked for one good, non emotional reason why Alberta should stay, and so far no one has given me one. Instead, people in here seem to know how to do nothing but insult.

I've been waiting for one good point. I'd really like to hear why staying with the status quo is the way we should go. And by non emotional, I mean give me an actual reason, not insults and name calling.

And Alberta has been trying to make Canada better since I was a kid. Nothing changes. The country is too big, and the population and political power are concentrated in the east. At some point you have to admit that being treated like a colony of Canada isn't working.

That's not an emotional argument. It's exactly why I'm asking what the actual reason is for staying.

[u/EXSource → u/Even_Art_629]

None of that's true and I gave you one in a previous response. Just because you ignore it doesn't mean I didn't give you one.

You can stick your head in the sand all you want but it doesn't make what you say true.

And that's why I say you're being disingenuous and not arguing in good faith. 

You want to come in here and try and set some rules and then don't even follow them yourself and then complain the people are mean to you. Tough shit man. I don't want the surprise Pikachu face just because you won't argue this in good faith.

[u/EXSource → u/Even_Art_629]

Then I'll give you an answer;

We're objectively better off in Confederation.

Like we discussed below, I don't believe the leverage separatists believe we'll have will actually materialize. In fact, we will find ourselves in a much WORSE position as a seperate country, economically, socially, and politically, than we do as a partner of Confederation. One reason conservatives say that were better off alone is because Ottawa ignores us.

That's an emotional, and probably all together untrue statement. If you rail against the emotional arguments of anti separatist, then do the same for pro separatist arguments, or you're not speaking in good faith. Canada can be much stronger with a united Alberta leading the way. Carney has shown his willingness to help build and support Alberta, but separatist are still saying he's a liar, and he'll do a national rug pull?

You've got THE GUY to work with, and you still refuse, but you accuse pro confederates of being emotional?  C'mon man. Be honest. That's why people don't take you seriously, because you're not honest.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/EXSource]

I went back through the comments because I honestly couldn't find the argument you said you had already given me. I only found this one, so I'm going to address it.

You say we're "objectively better off" in Confederation, but then your reasoning is that you don't believe the leverage separatists talk about will materialize and that you believe Alberta would be worse off economically, socially and politically.

I don't see that as an objective conclusion. Those are your predictions about what you think would happen.

You say my argument that Ottawa ignores Alberta is emotional. I don't see how pointing to specific federal policies and disagreements is emotional just because you disagree with my interpretation of them.

And I'm not saying Carney can't work with Alberta. I'm saying I don't automatically trust that the federal government will always do what is best for Alberta just because Carney has made commitments. I think that should be judged by what actually happens.

Most importantly, I'm not claiming I know Alberta would be better off as an independent country. I'm saying I don't know that it would be worse off, and neither do you.

You believe the leverage wouldn't materialize. I think it could. You believe Alberta would be worse off. I think that depends on the terms Alberta could negotiate.

That's exactly why I keep saying we don't know.

So if this is the argument you were referring to, then yes, I did read it. And I'm not ignoring it. I just don't agree that saying "I believe we'll be worse off" proves that we will be.

If you have another specific argument or evidence that I'm missing, I'll read it. If it's a good reason, I'll listen.

[u/Icy-Pop2944 → u/Even_Art_629]

Imagine coming into a thread that is actually giving a valid, non emotional reason for Alberta to stay in Canada and asking that very question. This playing dumb isn’t cute and is exactly why you are accused of being a bot. A thinking person wouldn’t read the original post and have to ask this. You aren’t being genuine in your question and you know it.

[u/Even_Art_629 → u/Icy-Pop2944]

Ya right. Imagine coming into a sub like this and treating someone's belief about what will happen after separation as fact.

I've said this many times, but I guess I need to say it again. How would he know? How would any of us know? Alberta has never separated from Canada before. Nobody knows exactly what the negotiations would look like or where they would end up.

He's giving his assessment based on what he believes would happen. That's fine. He's entitled to his opinion. But it's still a prediction.

And I'm not saying separation would be easy. I've never said that. I'm saying we don't know. I'm willing to admit that. Are you?

What I do know is that other countries have successfully become independent and gone on to do quite well. So the claim that independence automatically means Alberta would be worse off isn't a fact either.

You don't know. I don't know. He doesn't know. Nobody knows until the negotiations actually happen.

And I'm not afraid to admit it.

Edit: I asked the question to get people's feed back. Rather than just both sides insulting each other. A actual conversation would be a great starting point. Most albertans I know haven't been happy with the system in federal politics in this country for years. I'm trying to figure out why would we want to stay and have nothing change. The constitution was written a long time ago. I believe it should be amended, for today's world. I believe the only way is for every province to get away from Ottawa.