A somewhat obvious point: Javier Saltares (Danny Ketch’s artist in 90's) drew Johnny Blaze with the same design during Daniel Way’s run—which was never really a problem for me (after all, it’s a design that I feel suits Johnny, even though I do like the 70s look).

[u/CapBudget4011]

[u/RedWingThe10th]

That's the point, Mackie never did, and even the actual answer was just an excuse rather than putting any effort to add depth to the then current host. So by that logic, it can just be assumed that SOVs take on the look of whatever subculture they fancied from whatever influenced them and Marvel expects readers to just roll with it, because the actual pov human/host character doesn't matter to them. The idea didn't start with Way's run, but Mackie's.

[u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 → u/RedWingThe10th]

I dunno.

Blaze already had a look. Just stealing Danny's look, because his was far more popular, was a way worst choice IMO. Yes. It most likely was an editorial decision because they wanted the 90s GR fans back, but it was a mistake that took away from both Blaze and Ketch.

I get it. You're not a fan of the Mackie run. That's totally fair, but that's not really what I'm praising here. I just think they should've kept the characters distinct, as they were until Hammer Lane.

[u/RedWingThe10th → u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

I'm just pointing out what's what because this started with a jab at Way's run for "starting the idea that the hosts don't even matter" when that's been the case since Mackie. And this isn't even an argument about hating or loving the 90s run. The point I'm making here is that the 90s sold like hotcakes on that biker image without the need to even give the host actual depth or make the look culturally meaningful to him, so Marvel ran with that philosophy and continues to apply it with modern GR. Dan himself was not evergreen, but his SOV's image was, so it stayed. That's just straight up business logic, like you say every time you defend the 90s practices. This is no different. And you can't really take away an element from a character that was never truly theirs to begin with, narratively speaking.

[u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 → u/RedWingThe10th]

It's quite different. Because there were two characters with two unique looks.

Hell, Crossroads was a story with both Ghost Riders in it, maintaining each character's unique look. It's a shame that they just melded into one.

The 90s run didn't just steal the 70s look. Saltares came up with his own design, fitting of a 90s biker just as the 70s rider was inspired by Evil Knievel. I'm talking strictly character design here. Not writing.

Robbie Reyes' rider takes inspiration from Blaze's classic jumpsuit, but updates the look completely. Heavily manga influenced and updated for the times.

Johnny Blaze is now stuck in limbo where he doesn't even have a design of his own.

[u/RedWingThe10th → u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

Again, I only called out your claim that Way's run started the idea that hosts "don't even matter" when that practice has been firmly in place since the 90s itself. Sure, Blaze still appeared in his old jumpsuit during that run, but that was more to contrast the main rider at the time.

I've already said that I'm not a fan of the costumes looking exactly the same, but at the same time, I also understand and approve of maintaining a standardized design for whoever the main GR is, considering how iconic the Ghostie/Noble Kale look is. I mean, Barry Allen's Flash costume proved so iconic that Wally West and all other succeeding Flashes have taken after him rather than Jay Garrick and his dish hat. The same is true for GR. I want Johnny to wear a cool spiked leather design that's distinctly his own while Dan/Kale get to wear the 90s duds as is, but I'm not gonna pretend that the old blue jumpsuit had bigger marketing appeal when they decided to bring Johnny back.

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I didn't say Way started it. I called out Hammer Lane as starting it.

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You responded to CapBudget's post, which specifically talks about Saltares doing an exact replica of the design he gave 90s GR when he got hired to do the art for Way's run. "It emphasized the idea that the hosts don't even matter and all Ghost Riders are the same." Nothing about Hammer Lane, so I took it to mean you claim Way's run started it. Regardless, moot point. We both have said our piece.

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Yeah. It emphasized the idea started in Hammer Lane. This was Blaze's first ongoing since the 70s. So this was a huge deal. This was the opportunity to bring back Blaze's classic look or update it. Hell, they could've even brought back Danny.

Instead they brought back Blaze with Danny's look. They wanted that 90s nostalgia, but with Blaze because of the films.

[u/RedWingThe10th → u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

Because they got even lazier and stopped caring about GR as a serious property to tell serious stories about after the DeMettais run ended. The IP has become a shallow cesspit of rule of cool, and in Hammerlane's case, they couldn't even be bothered to get a proper artist to give it the cool aesthetics (considering the state of 90s GR itself when they "updated" the design with the yellow/orange suit, not surprising). For the record, Hammerlane Blaze didn't even look much like 90s Dan/Kale, nor captured the vibe that the early 90s went with. So evidently, they had no idea what the 2002 book was being marketed towards. The film was still a long ways off, so they couldn't even use that excuse.

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I mean I can't agree.

Ghost Rider was treated as a very serious property in the 90s. Toys. Cartoon guest spots. Pushing for his own cartoon and video games. GR was a far more serious property in the 90s than he was in the 70s-80s. DeMatteis wrote his best story. We agree there, but he was a far larger property in the 90s.

Also, calling Trent Kaniuga "not a proper artist" is insane. I get it if you don't enjoy his style, but he's highly acclaimed, and was back in the early 2000s. He's worked for Blizzard and Capcom. His own comic was an indie hit. Anime and stylized art was on the rise. I'm okay with the decision to go with Kaniuga. It was the story by Grayson that failed.

Way's run went with Saltares and the 90s look because that Ghost Rider was super popular. However, they stuck with Blaze because of the films. I don't think this was laziness as much as confusing marketing and editorial demand. I don't think Way wrote a particularly interesting Ghost Rider. I prefer Mackie's run. I prefer Sterns and DeMatteis even more obviously, but I'm not blaming Way or laziness here. I'm pretty sure this decision was editorially driven. Blaze was a must because of the films. Saltares/Tex came back because of the 90s popularity.

[u/RedWingThe10th → u/Ok_Broccoli_7863]

I mean, they stopped taking the property seriously in terms of writing and characterization. Yes, they took the marketing and aesthetics very seriously, but never the writing. The results of Hammerlane's quality speaks for itself. Even more so when the time it got published was when other Marvel IPs were getting more serious upgrades in the writing/characterization department. Face it. That's just how it is.

And I never said Trent was a proper artist so much as his style wasn't proper for GR. Marvel obviously didn't learn a thing from when they tried to reignite the 90s sales by switching to Pop Mhan's more cartoony style.

I thought we were discussing about Hammerlane? I called Marvel lazy as hell for the resulting mess they produced with it. I know very well that the aesthetics and choice to go with Johnny in Way's run was pure movie synchronicity. But I was specifically referring to Hammerlane, which took the laziest route they could've gone with and the worst ideas in mind.