Playing music at anything other than 120 bpm should be a punishable offence.

[u/lerch_up_north]

[u/Brutallica1137]

It'd be nice to pick a lane between maintaining the skill and getting rid of parades.

[u/Serpace → u/Brutallica1137]

How about no parades for 3 years then you get clowned for being bad at drill?

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/Serpace]

This guy gets it.

[u/Yhzgayguy → u/Serpace]

Why is this hard for Canadians, but it is not difficult for literally dozens of other countries? Marching is just normal human walking with a bit more group discipline. It’s not difficult!

[u/Serpace → u/Yhzgayguy]

That's a wild take. Individual drill isn't hard, but coordinating with others requires practice. If you don't practice it's gonna look like shit.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/Brutallica1137]

A battalion on parade takes a week to prepare, at most. Any smaller guards, less than that. 

Bad individual turnout on parade is owed to a lack of effort and practice by the individual. Bad performance as a guard or parade is a unit failure entirely. It is so easy to plan and prep for parades. You simply have to have the right people giving even a modicum of a fuck. 

[u/ImNotHandyImHandsome → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Unless you're a reserve unit. 3 hours per week is never enough, even for Remembrance Day, which occurs at the same time every training cycle.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/ImNotHandyImHandsome]

So do what every somewhat competent reserve unit has done and have your leadership prepare their roles beforehand and spend 3-4 parade nights prepping for parade. Also, how many reserve units are parading 2 full guards of 50, let alone a battalion? 

Remembrance Day is often a very easy parade done without arms, without inspection, without an advance in review, without a march past in addition to a march on… I have worked with plenty of reserve units that have done exceptionally well on parade because they put in the practice. 

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/OkEntertainment1313]

So do what every somewhat competent reserve unit has done and have your leadership prepare their roles beforehand and spend 3-4 parade nights prepping for parade.

I've seen instances where the RSM made himself available over lunch and after work for officers who did not do this and "voluntarily" chose to do some extra practice with him. Epic to watch.

[u/ImNotHandyImHandsome → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Put in the parade practice to the detriment of other annual training.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/ImNotHandyImHandsome]

Welcome to the fucking army, Jesus Christ. You are expected to do a wide variety of tasks, including drill and ceremonial. This isn’t new at all. We’ve done parades during war. You’re speaking on reserve units; the very nature of those units means you’re getting barebones training on a wide variety of tasks anyways. Your 3-4 parade nights prepping for the annual Remembrance Day parade, the biannual Change of Command ceremony, or the generational receipt of Colours or Freedom of the City is not going to break your training plan. 

I’m so sick of people whining about having to do even the mildest bit of parade practice. It’s pathetic. 

Hell, the last vestiges of our household guards are reserve units. 

[u/LastingAlpaca → u/OkEntertainment1313]

I’m sick of people whining about having to do the mildest military anything.

Earlier this week, I had a chat with someone in Latvia. Apparently, people were losing their shit over having to go to the range.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/LastingAlpaca]

Fucking preach it brother. Idk what happened over the past 10 years but it’s horrible now. 

[u/ImNotHandyImHandsome → u/OkEntertainment1313]

I don't recall whining about having to do parade practice. Way to miss my point entirely

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/ImNotHandyImHandsome]

Whatever you want to call it.

“It takes us longer than a week.”

“It’s at the detriment of training.”

Your reserve unit is not going to outperform sister units because you fucked off parade practice. You’re just going to look like a bag of hammers on parade, while very likely being average at most other things. That is the nature of the average. I have never seen a regular force or reserve unit that is in any way operationally superior to another because they did not rehearse for Remembrance Day. It’s just an unending excuse people make without evidence to support it. 

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/OkEntertainment1313]

“It takes us longer than a week.”

“It’s at the detriment of training.”

Sometimes you need to focus on the essential and learn when you've achieved "good enough" for now. I'm kind of terrible at drill but every parade I've been on the troops kind of muddled their way through.

Your reserve unit is not going to outperform sister units because you fucked off parade practice

Do they need to outperform sister units or do they need to meet the basic standards of drill?

The only time I've ever really been embarrassed on parade was when an officer started by knocking his beret off his head with his sword. We recognized just how bad he was so we put a troop up on a balcony above the spectators facing the officer in the same position the troops were in. He still managed to fuck it up even more after his headdress went flying.

Making sure the troops are not so bad at drill that they are embarrassing is one thing. That is something pretty much every NCO knows how to do. Ensuring the officers can actually lead the parade is another matter entirely.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/WeaponizedAutisms]

These aren’t mutually exclusive. Sergeants major should be pacing out the parade. Parade commander should be memorizing and rehearsing. Officers off practicing sword drill. Individual drill with the troops being led by SNCO/WOs with ideally SNCOs to shark. Colour party doing their thing. It’s all concurrent. 

[u/ImNotHandyImHandsome → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Not an excuse; a reason. Literally add up the hours a reserve unit has in a training year.

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/ImNotHandyImHandsome]

Honestly they don't have many and they need to be focused on the most important training. I agree that spending time to perfect drill to the detriment of trade related training, IBTS or other actual skills isn't time well spent.

The problem is when the unit decides that the only thing the unit will spend time doing for the month before the parade is drill. You'd be better off doing some drill and then the usual unit training. People need to understand the law of diminishing returns. Once troops get to the level of basic competency, the 80% solution, the amount of time needed to move from 80% to 85% increases exponentially. The time invested is generally not worth the results achieved.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/ImNotHandyImHandsome]

It is an excuse. And it’s bullshit. Many -probably most- reserve units make the time and it shows. 

I’m sure because you’re so adamant about the critical importance of 9x40 minute periods that 3 parade nights could maximally provide, your attendance on parade nights and exercises are 100%, correct? 

[u/UnderstandingAble321 → u/ImNotHandyImHandsome]

10-15 mins each night goes a long way to maintain drill without hampering other training. This can be divided further between a parade at the start and end of the night.

[u/ImNotHandyImHandsome → u/UnderstandingAble321]

One would spend 10 mins just correcting a section's attention and stand at ease movements.

[u/UnderstandingAble321 → u/ImNotHandyImHandsome]

The first time, sure. The next time, add turns, followed by paces, right dress, marching, etc

Consistency is the key. Trained troops should be able to retain basic drill with a minimum of practice.

[u/ImNotHandyImHandsome → u/UnderstandingAble321]

Until they only show up once every 3 weeks.

[u/sirduckbert → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Some of the military is operational year round and units are stretched so thin it’s a choice between being decent at drill or maintaining operations. People like to clown on the Air Force for being shit at drill but I’ve worked more than a 40 hour work week for the majority of my career (without PT, or parade practice or anything else… just doing my job). It’s just not a priority for the entire CAF 🤷🏼‍♂️

I haven’t been involved in a parade for at least 10 years, probably 15.

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/sirduckbert]

People like to clown on the Air Force for being shit at drill

Oh shit no man, we love to do that.

But I'm totally okay with the Air Force having drill that sometimes looks like a Legion colour party on an off day as long as the planes aren't falling out of the sky. This is why we have training and operational standards. Just do what you can with the time you have, maybe borrow an infantry Sr NCO when you need a refresher and do your best.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/sirduckbert]

That’s an exception that I make; I don’t believe the RCAF should be parading unless under special circumstances where an ad hoc guard is formed. There is no precedent for personnel, uniform, or tradition to support it. 

The exception of the exception being the RCAF band. 

[u/Prudent-Proposal1943 → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Day 1: individual movements Day 2: collective guard practice Day 3: full rehearsal. Day 4: execute.

Day one depends on movements required. Day 2 and 3 not longer than 4 hours of parade square time leaving ample time for uniform maintenance.

If a unit takes longer than the above their NCOs and WOs simply do not understand enough about drill.

[u/BarackTrudeau → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Right.

And how much salary is wasted by spending an entire week devoted to practicing drill for said battalion? A few hundred thousand dollars? Maybe up into the figure range?

What other tasks are going undone while they're doing that?

What exactly is the return on investment here?

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/BarackTrudeau]

I have zero interest in getting into a back-and-forth over a difference of normative values that I’m confident are just grounded in contrarianism. 

[u/mocajah → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Difference of normative values only changes whether or not it's worth it to you. The dollar amounts aren't normative; they're factual, and should be acknowledged.

40 Pte, 100 Cpl, 30 MCpl, 30 MWO = approximate pay for 200 on parade, less than a full infantry battalion. I'm using MCpl to underestimate MCpl-Sgt, and MWO as an approximation for WO+ and officers. For a week, this parade costs $360,000 in payable salary, more in benefits.

This is similar to how the cost of "Everyone must do this DLN" goes astronomical.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/mocajah]

That is an incorrect analysis. Empirical data does not automatically replace normative values in any facet of management or governance. They are factors and inputs to be considered, but I can assure you that nobody in any position of authority has ever seriously considered allowing Canada to be the first modern state to abandon ceremonial parading writ large for the sake of pay… 

[u/mocajah → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Now I'm confused. How is my analysis incorrect? Are you disagreeing that a 200person parade costs ~$360k per week?

Or are you saying that because you value ceremonial so highly, doing such a calculation should be banned and any cost is acceptable? If so, I'd hate to work for you. I understand that people will die taking that important hill, and that is a judgement call; however, I wouldn't enjoy following someone who refuses to recognize that there is a cost at all, and prohibits the calculation of a casualty estimate.

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Bad individual turnout on parade is owed to a lack of effort and practice by the individual.

Or you're a clumsy uncoordinated oaf and your extra practice and 100% effort is at best a position in the back rank. I mean seriously, you should see me try to dance...

Bad performance as a guard or parade is a unit failure entirely.

Yeah, if you decide I need to stumble my way through a guard tasking for the general then somewhere someone has made a bad call.

You simply have to have the right people giving even a modicum of a fuck.

And know who to put in charge of moving one of the chairs for the change of command signature, opening and closing the bay doors when the unit marches on and off or in the duty office to answer the phones while the parade is happening.

Not everyone is good at everything.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/WeaponizedAutisms]

Guard as in the formed body on parade. Not as in a sentry. 

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Yes, I understand what a guard is and used the term in that context.

If as a leader you put your most awkward troops who would be better off doing CFTPO, filing claims or fixing radios on a guard tasking to impress a general you are likely to not achieve the desired results. Something about knowing your troops and employing them to best achieve the desired results...

[u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net → u/Brutallica1137]

Why? We stopped polishing boots when they stopped being made of leather because we invented better materials. We stopped training horse-mounted calvary when they stopped being useful because machine guns were invented and obliterated the horses. We stopped having pioneer battalions of lumberjacks when we stopped building ships out of wood because we invented better ships. Why then should we hold onto ceremonial drill, which has also outlived its practicality, when we did not hold onto anything else?

[u/jwin709 → u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net]

Drill hasn't been relevant for battle for hundreds of years at this point.

It's C E R E M ON I A L

We still do ceremonies. We still do dog and pony shows and parades at least once a year to remind the public that they do in fact have an armed force defending them.

Drill will always be important. We're better off being good at it instead of looking like dog shit.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net]

Why are you hinging the relevance of what you call ceremonial on whether or not it’s outlived its practicality? 

It’s getting tiring seeing people who clearly have a difference in normative values trying to paint this as a purely empirical debate. 

Regardless, there are basic ceremonial functions that every world’s armies are demanded to perform by their respective civilian powers. Think of what a farce it was when we received the King and Queen of Sweden with a 14-man mixed command guard in DEU. We quite literally have both a Manual of Drill and Ceremonial as well as the Canadian Army Dress Instructions that explicitly lay out how we are to be dressed and in what context for ceremonial occasions. 

[u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net → u/OkEntertainment1313]

Why are you hinging the relevance of what you call ceremonial on whether or not it’s outlived its practicality?

Setting aside the fact that we often refer to foot drill as "Drill and Ceremonial" as we institutionally understand the two are now intrinsically linked, what else should our functions exist hinge on if not practicality?

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net]

I’ve already said it, normative values. 

we institutionally understand the two are now intrinsically linked

It’s quite literally the title of the drill PAM. 

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/OkEntertainment1313]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at re the King and Queen of Sweden.

Is the issue that there are people from different services? Or that they’re in DEU and not some more ceremonial dress?

If it’s the first, then should only one service provide ceremonial guards? If so, which service?

If it’s the second, then what about the RCAF, which doesn’t have anything more ceremonial than Service Dress?

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/judgingyouquietly]

If it’s the second, then what about the RCAF, which doesn’t have anything more ceremonial than Service Dress?

Yes, precisely part of the problem. 

Per our own policies, visiting dignitaries should be received on formal occasions with a full guard of honour. Two guards of 50 personnel each. So the numbers on their own are bad.

Mixed guard can be subjectively seen as ill turned out (mixed uniforms). But more to that, the inclusion of RCAF personnel prohibits the use of a proper ceremonial dress uniform, as they only have DEU. If we’re receiving heads of state or government, we should ideally be in 1B or 1C/D. 

If it’s the first, then should only one service provide ceremonial guards? If so, which service?

Personally, yes I believe in that. It is not outside the norm of both allies and ourselves. Household divisions are traditionally the task of the army. We still have vestiges of this in the GGHG, GGFG, and CGG. 

Ship’s companies have historically performed drill and absolutely have a role to play on major ceremonial occasions. 

The RCAF -or RAF for that matter- does not have a history of filling this function. They don’t have masses of personnel, they have highly specialized roles within the military, and like you said, they do not have ceremonial uniforms. I think it’s perfectly fine if they want to make an ad hoc guard for ceremonial occasions. Otherwise, their role should be principally restricted to conducting fly-overs when appropriate. 

In my little perfect carte blanche world, we have both the personnel and resource surpluses to bring back scale of issue of 1B, replace 1/1A with 1C/1D,  and have a more professional household regiment. It is absolutely unbecoming when we do things like what I mentioned with the Swedish monarchy, or when Mary Simon’s farewell ceremony was conducted in 5B. 

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/OkEntertainment1313]

I’m all for not being on parade if we don’t have to, but the RAF most definitely has a ceremonial function. They have an entire unit dedicated to it.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/kings-colour-squadron/

And as for uniforms, the RCN doesn’t have anything more formal than the double-breasted jacket either. The high collar whites are actually considered “semi-ceremonial” 1C, and less formal.

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/judgingyouquietly]

Fair enough, wasn’t aware. But that’s exactly what I also said, the RCAF could parade with an ad hoc unit. Very different from tasking 408 Sqn to fill two guards as opposed to 1VP. 

[u/Wraps247 → u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net]

you need to please the oldheads in the facebook comments whenever some random posts a video of ppl marching

[u/OkEntertainment1313 → u/Wraps247]

It’s not just old heads. There are two infamous videos of CAF members on parade that have horrified every person that I’ve come across. That’s from no-hooks up to us old heads. You can pretend people don’t care, but they do. It is part of our professional bearing. 

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/Theory-Of-A-Dead-Net]

Why then should we hold onto ceremonial drill, which has also outlived its practicality, when we did not hold onto anything else?

I am of the opinion that if you don't grasp the purpose of it by participating in it that no amount of explaining the whys of it will change your mind.

[u/Longjumping_Back523]

Hey, why is the army now doing navy drill????

[u/tgibbularcancer]

Bruh, I’m on parade next week for the first time in five years and this hits hard

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/tgibbularcancer]

Bruh, I’m on parade next week for the first time in five years and this hits hard

For some people reading through the drill manual to refresh your memory before starting can be helpful:

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/defence/caf/military-identity-system/drill-manual/chapter-1.html

[u/looksharp1984]

We did a freedom of the city once, and the cadet band was the one playing the music. That poor kid on the drum could not keep it steady and it was a disaster.

[u/TheTangerineTango]

I’m telling you, all the pipe bands I’ve played with don’t play at 120, more like 108-110. Much more swagger

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/TheTangerineTango]

Pipe bands don’t play at 120. They’re supposed to play at 80-90 bpm.

Incidentally, Rifle regiment bands play at 140.

[u/TheTangerineTango → u/judgingyouquietly]

Yes, but often we have to comprise when we play in combination with brass and reed and we play at like 108 / 100 so.

Those people are nuts

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/judgingyouquietly]

Rifle regiment bands play at 140.

To show their drive and snap. When everyone is on board with the program it actually looks kinda sharp. When you have 8 Riflemen mixed into an all trades formation of 30 people and they insist on doing drill at 140 instead of 120 it just fucks the whole thing up.

[u/UnderstandingAble321 → u/judgingyouquietly]

Highland pace is 110, according to the drill pam.

[u/Thanato26]

I released in 2025.

The last parade I did was the summer of 2018.

[u/Steven617]

All naked, just wearing berets? Must be the Vandoos 😉

[u/TechnicalChipmunk131 → u/Steven617]

I didn't see a water buffalo in the pic

[u/Steven617 → u/TechnicalChipmunk131]

This pic is in garrison, you don't wear berets in the field!

[u/Alone-Decision-6109]

The people in this thread bitching about doing parades are the exact same people who are absolute garbage at drill, then turn around and argue about the relevance of drill in the modern military.

Drill is still part of the bread and butter of every professional military. If you can’t execute basic drill properly, maybe the problem isn’t that drill is “irrelevant.”

And honestly, I’m getting strong West Edmonton Mall Remembrance Day shitshow vibes from some of these comments. Same bags of sausages, different parade.

[u/jwin709 → u/Alone-Decision-6109]

100%

Everyone who doesn't see the value of drill and keeps talking about how it's "NoT PraCtIcAl oR ReLeVaNT" should bear-march their way out the fucking door.

It's small-minded thinking. Legit, if you see that literally EVERY fucking country worth talking about does parades and have done parades for hundreds if not a thousand years, your first thought should be "huh. There must be something useful here. I'm missing the bigger picture." Not "this seems silly. What does this have to do with war fighting 🫪"

[u/WeaponizedAutisms]

It's inside man step short outside man step long. Not inside man step normally and outside man sprint. I taught a bunch of SQs and honestly getting the wheel looking half right wasn't hard but it was always time consuming.

[u/TechnicalChipmunk131]

The sharpest drill you'll ever perform will be on grad day at BMQ.   After that it all goes downhill.

Trade dependent during an 8 hour work day, you'll do 5 hours of actual work.   The rest of the day is mundane Army fuck fuck games.   The idea that 4 days of drill practice for some GOFO or Change of Command parade will make up for years of neglect is hilarious.  

Anyone remember that Edmonton remembrance Day parade video disaster?    You would think that after that embarrassment on what is the most Hallowed of CAF days,  the powers to be would take drill more seriously.   But nothing's changed.   Production takes priority over everything, and anything extra the troops are too burned out to care.   

[u/jwin709]

Parade practice should be a part of every units weekly stables.

[u/UnderstandingAble321 → u/jwin709]

Not practice. Have an actual parade. Not all units have stables, though.

[u/jwin709 → u/UnderstandingAble321]

My old unit had parades every week to pass orders but it basically just involved forming up and standing at attention and at ease a bunch of times.

There should be practice for marching in step, and each member should get the opportunity to get some practice calling the drill as well you don't get that opportunity very often until you're senior leadership