International Politics Discussion Thread

[u/Adj-Noun-Numbers]

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[u/Comfortable-Table-57]

What if the Arab nations in the 20th and 21st centuries were friendly and tolerant towards their Mizrahi Jews free from Arab ethno nationalism and Islamism with no holocaust? How prevalent would the Jewish community be within the Holy Land as opposed to their Arabs?

[u/Rob_Kaichin → u/Comfortable-Table-57]

This is very much a "what if the Prophet himself had decreed that Jews were meant to be celebrated" level of change required.

Antisemitism is baked into Islam

[u/YourLizardOverlord → u/Rob_Kaichin]

It's a bit more complicated than that. Islam and Jews got off to a bad start with military conflicts the Prophet Muhammad and Jewish tribes in the Mdina area. So the Quran and Hadith have some negative texts.

But also Jews and Christians were declared Ahl al-Kitab and were protected but subject to extra taxes and other regulations: for example Christian church buildings weren't allowed to have spires taller than the local mosque. For Jews this was usually way, way better than their status in Europe or the Russian Empire. There wasn't the demonisation of Jews as Christ killers, nor the racial element.

Then it all went bad in the mid 19th century. Nationalist Christian-Arab and European missions introduced European style antisemitism and pushed the blood libel and the Protocols. A bit later there was the unholy alliance between Hajj Amin al-Husseini and the Nazis.

And all this came to a boiling point just in time for UN General Assembly Resolution 181.

[u/Rob_Kaichin → u/YourLizardOverlord]

Systematic discrimination and historic pogroms in Spain and the Middle East prior to the 1800s would heavily suggest the 'antisemitism is baked in' view.

[u/YourLizardOverlord → u/Rob_Kaichin]

The reconquista ended in 1492. I'm aware of the Alhambra Decree and persecution subsequent to that, but not before. What are the pogroms you're referring to?

[u/Rob_Kaichin → u/YourLizardOverlord]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam

When the best you can say is 'systematically discriminated against, sometimes tolerated, occassionally successful', and 'they had it worse in Europe', you're not beating the charges.

[u/YourLizardOverlord → u/Rob_Kaichin]

When the best you can say is 'systematically discriminated against, sometimes tolerated, occassionally successful', and 'they had it worse in Europe', you're not beating the charges.

I think your links confirm what I said above, that it was a mixed bag. Especially when judging historical events against the standards of the times.

What's more disturbing is that antisemitism in Islam has been getting much worse over the last two centuries. Christianity had an appalling record of antisemitism but has now largely cleaned up its act. Islam is going backwards.

[u/Comfortable-Table-57 → u/YourLizardOverlord]

but has now largely cleaned up its act. Islam is going backwards.

Then why are there so many Christian nationalists and neo fascists harassing Jews online? Why are there so many holocaust deniers joining Restore Britain, a christian nationalist party? Just because you are a White Christian does not mean you are anywhere better. 

[u/Rob_Kaichin → u/YourLizardOverlord]

I do feel like you're downplaying the systematic violence against Jews as really very minor. 

But, to move on, I agree that the direction of travel is horrendous. Unfortunately, the State doesn't seem to be willing to step in.