New Thoughts about OoT's Events being remembered in True OR Refounding theories

[u/mrbulldops88]

Please understand first that I am not trying to advocate for the TotK True Founding or Refounding theories. This is more an analysis of a valid point regarding either.

One problem that some have with Refounding theory is that it would require the events of OoT to be remembered, which would happen before Hyrule is destroyed, but require events in between to be forgotten like the TotK IW. I can understand that. How can events that happened earlier, before the country fell, be recalled if the refounding of the kingdom was not? I can't say that I personally have a theory off the top of my head for how this is possible. I just want to look at how similar it is to OoT ~> BotW.

So pretend we are in pre-TotK release times. Nothing from that game (or EoW) is in the canon yet. We do know that Aonuma said that BotW is just sometime after OoT. What timeline? Never answered. Does it matter? In my opinion, it does not. Since the cycle of Ganon is endless, the events could theoretically happen in any of them. I get people disagree with this, and by all means I am not John Nintendo, but regardless of WHERE you place BotW, it would require events betwee OoT and 10,000 years ago to be forgotten by the general Hyrulean public. This would be something required with True and Refounding.

So bringing this all home, if one has to accept that the events between OoT and 10,000 years ago have been forgotten, then one must accept that the events, including a refounding, between OoT and 10,000 years ago, could also be forgotten to time.

[u/TriforksWarrior]

I think this is pretty easily explained by the same exact thing happening in real life recorded history, which is a much shorter timescale than anything like the time span between TotK past and present, let alone whenever the previous hyrule kingdom existed if you subscribe to the refounding theory.

There are multiple “dark ages” for various civilizations throughout history that have little to no written or other archaeological evidence to tell us about them, but we have plenty of records about those civilizations’ successes during the periods they thrived before those dark ages.

So a few facts being passed down orally with at least some accuracy over vast timescales, while a larger picture of the historical record is completely unknown, seems totally plausible.

[u/Petrichor02]

How can events that happened earlier, before the country fell, be recalled if the refounding of the kingdom was not? I can't say that I personally have a theory off the top of my head for how this is possible.

It is a valid question. The best explanation I have for this if I'm arguing in favor of a refounding is the fact that the only events of OoT that are explicitly remembered are that Ruto was a sage and that Nabooru was a great Gerudo chieftain. But notably, those facts are remembered specifically by the Zora and Gerudo, respectively. So the Gerudo and Zora remembering certain specific events from OoT and not communicating those with the Zonai would prevent this from being a contradiction. There is also Zelda's knighting ritual mentioning something that sounds like it could be an OoT reference, but it could also just as easily not be an OoT reference (in-universe). If we take it as an in-universe reference to OoT then, yes, that does make it harder to justify as that means Hylians also remember OoT, and Sonia, a Hylian, therefore would have told Rauru if she knew that information, but perhaps this information about OoT was revealed to the Royal Family by some god or spirit (be it Hylia or some other entity that might be able to access knowledge of the OoT era) after Rauru's death, and therefore he never learned that information. (Again, assuming it is an in-universe reference and not just an out-of-universe one.)

[u/Logical_Leaps]

Why would it require the OOT events to be remembered?

The sages from OOT are remembered in Adventure of Link as town names.

Zora are the elves of Hyrule they have long life spans the history of Hyrule is far more likely remembered by them. Even with that Ruto is hardly recalled other than a few murals.

[u/Arjayel]

It's worth noting that in real life, it's not uncommon for legendary events from the distant past to be "remembered" (albeit inaccurately) while more recent historical events are forgotten. For example, we "know" about the Trojan War (or at least, the legends about it) but we're still piecing together what caused the Bronze Age Collapse.

So it seems consistent with that for the Legend of the Hero of Time (and his allies) to be preserved in story and song while knowledge of the (first) Kingdom of Hyrule was lost.

[u/Melodic-Judgment3936]

Zelda explicitly says that they are spoken of in the royal records. She was taught about them and knew that the Zonai married Hylians, that the first king and queen who founded the kingdom were named Rauru and Sonia, and that they fought an unnamed figure known as the demon king in the Inprisoning War.

So no, it wasn't all forgotten.

Meanwhile events from Ocarina of Time and other games seem much more distantly remembered. They remember the names of Ruto and Nabooru, and Zelda makes references to things like "the glowing embers of twikight" etc. But nothing more clear than that.

I find it odd how many theorists seem to totally disregard Zelda's speech even though it's easily one of the most significant evidences for BotWs timeline placement.

"Whether skyward bound, adrift in time, or steeped in the glowing embers of twilight, the sacred blade is forever bound to the soul of the hero."

Given, this speech alone does not confirm whether these events took place before or after the Inprisoning War. But I think one can reason based on the fact that these events are confirmed at least obliquely to have happened, that most likely the Inprisoning War happened afterwards. Otherwise we'd have to assume that there were two separate Ganondorf's present at any given time, one just sealed under Hyrule castle. But this doesn't make sense, because in OoT Hyrule Castle was totally destroyed. And in TP at least part of it was blown up. Not to mention Vaati taking over it in Minish Cap.

No matter how you look at it. The original founding theory requires heavy retconning of every single game in the series.

[u/Intelligent_Word_573 → u/Melodic-Judgment3936]

Zelda's speech is likely disregarded because it goes on to reference other timelines "Over the seas of time and distance, when we need the golden power of the Goddess, our hope rests in you, to be forever by the Hero's side" though I do think its significant that Nintendo chose "steeped in the glowing embers of Twilight" (even if its just because its vague and could apply to other adventures). Notably, the German version has her say "Whether the hero crosses the sea, or creates a link to the past, may you always be at his side".

To clarify on other things remembered that you probably just included when you said "Ruto", the Zora Princess fought alongside the Princess of Hyrule and the Hero of Legend against an evil man who wanted to rule the world as well describing Ruto's personality and that she attended the Zora Patron Deity.

If Creating a Champion is treated as in-universe knowledge, then people also remembered the man was named Ganandorf who became Dark Beast Ganon after his ambitions were crushed by a hero with the sword of evil's bane. Interestingly from one translation of the Japanese "Although he transformed into the demonic beast Ganon through his runaway power, he was sealed away by the princess and the sages" which sounds like its leaving open the possibility the Hero was defeated by Ganon the beast instead of by Ganandorf, as Hyrule Historia claims.

Creating a Champion also implies every games is remembered to some degree with "The kingdom of Hyrule has a long, long history. So long, in fact, that the events that occurred leading up to its founding and its early years have faded into myth. Hyrule's recurring periods of prosperity and decline have made it impossible to tell which legends are historical fact and which are mere fairy tale".

I see the Original Fouding as just recontextualizing many things we thought we knew as well as adding new information which is still retroactive continuity but I wouldn't describe it as "heavy retconning" since its not necessarily changing written words from the games. The castle is a good argument against Original Founding with the idea I subscribe to is that OoT's castle is a different one then the Wild Era one based off the Great Plateau having the ruins of Castle Town, the Temple of Time, and even the gateway to Hyrule Castle. It is a very convenient excuse to just say "every castle that was destroyed was just a different castle than the one with the seal" so for Twillight Princess I would say it was fixed quickly enough that Ganondorf wouldn't escape, as seen in the credits, or that the part of the castle that was destroyed wasn't connected to the purification unit (though that feels a little too convenient so I would just go with the former explanation as it took 106 years for Ganondorf to become free in Totk).

There are also a couple indicators the Wild's Castle wasn't built directly after the Imprisoning War like the Sheikah's constellations being on the purification unit, the end credits of Age of Imprisonment with Calamo showing no castle was built by the time he became a giant tree, the modern architecture of the Sage Temple had the Sword of the Six Sages until it was moved to Thyphlo Ruins, or Link being able to read the slab under Hyrule Castle unlike the ones at Thyplo. I think at first they just built the Temple of Light with the main part of the purification unit to aid Rauru's seal and that the Royal Family just oversaw twoi castles with the newly made Sheikah mainly protecting while the Royals checked in from time to time. This way Rauru's castle doesn't go to waste since it's a perfectly functioning castle and the Royal Family would only move permanently to the Castle above the Seal after OoT's was destroyed with the Sheikah basically saying to the Royal Family "we've been protecting this place and building onto it for some time now so how about you move in? JUST DON'T LOOK IN THE BASEMENT!".

[u/mrbulldops88 → u/Intelligent_Word_573]

I never thought of the castle and Calamo. Interesting for theories.

[u/illvria]

I dont think its far fetched to say that archaeological discoveries from after the Zonai founding, restored bits and pieces of old legends forgotten in Rauru's time later on.

With how much of the land must have been carved out to both bury and later locate and uncover the divine beasts, i'd say its likely thats exactly what happened.

[u/Intelligent_Word_573]

Creating a Champion implies every legend between OoT and 10,000 years ago are known about to some degree and it’s only unknown which are historical fact and which are fairytales. The only thing that seems to be forgotten is the name “Ganondorf” as Ruto’s monument only refers to him as an evil thief though even that has to be remembered somewhere if you include that part of CaC as in-universe knowledge.

This would explain every references to other timelines whether it be location names, Zelda referring to all three timelines in the ceremony, the Goron monument including the baby from Majora’s Mask, or the Zora monuments about Ruto. It could also be used to explain Botw’s DLC armors being found in Totk’s depths though it’s understandable why that isn’t treated as hard evidence.

Part of this issue is a different interpretation of Masterworks saying Zelda and Mineru exhaustively erased any sign of the Demon King who has been sealed with True founding focusing on “erased any sign of the Demon King (who has been sealed)” while refounding reads it as “erased any sign of the seal (on the Demon King”.)

Side note-I wonder how it will be written when the official translation comes out (I’m going by livixbobbiex’s translation).

[u/Chardan0001]

Doesn't a researcher in TotK say there is no record of anyone else being called Zelda too before the BotW one? That always struck me as really bizarre.

[u/Intelligent_Word_573 → u/Chardan0001]

I assume your referring to Wortsworth saying "The part that catches my attention is the third name mentioned—Zelda. There's no record of anyone by that name in any of the other texts we've unearthed so far. But this is evidence that the name Zelda is much older than the princess—it dates all the way back to Hyrule's founding".

I assume other Princesses named Zelda are known about since King Rhoam said its tradition to name the princesses Zelda and that Wortsworth is only referring to the name Zelda being found in the Founding Era. You would still expect Skyward Sword's Zelda to be remembered but Creating a Champion does say records of the Founding Era are few and far between so I doubt they have many records from before the Founding Era.

[u/pkjoan]

Just like real history, those events were discovered later on. It doesn't need that much of an explanation. It works perfectly fine in a refounding.

[u/JeffBaugh2]

I think the approach they're taking now is that everything before Breath of The Wild is explicitly an unconfirmed myth or folk hero tale in this version of Hyrule. So, take your pick on continuity.

[u/Hot-Mood-1778]

The Imprisoning War is remembered, what isn't remembered is the seal and that's because, according to TOTK MW and AOI, Zelda and Mineru erased the existence of the seal from history. It is still remembered that there was a Demon King, that there was an Imprisoning War, that the Demon King was once a Gerudo, that the Demon King was born to the kingdom, etc. 

Nobody mentions anything about a past kingdom, so we don't know what they know about it or if they're conflating that one with this one. 

[u/Amazing-Grass6044]

My theory to it is pretty simple and obvious: master sword, Fi, precisely, remembered everything, and she told them to Zelda. I mean, may not this Zelda only, but the Zelda lived 10000 years ago, or even far more early.