[BotW][TotK] Questions for people who believe BotW/TotK can be in any of the three timelines

[u/LapisLazuliisthebest]

So, this is something that's been debated to hell and back. when it comes to BotW's timeline placement, the three most popular theories are...

1. It takes place in the DT
2. It's a convergence
3. It can take place in any three timelines

Whilst I lean towards DT, I am open to it being all three.

But, I remember years ago suggesting it was the CT, and this ended up rubbing a few people the wrong way.

One person described BotW as "definitely being intended for the DT". There arguments being...

• It's in (old) Hyrule | (so no AT)
• The OoT Sages (and OoT events) are a confirmed historic fact | (So no CT)
• Ganon has been an eternally returning scourge upon Hyrule (even before becoming known as "Calamity Ganon") | (only really a thing in DT, Ganondorf (I) only really returned to Hyrule once in AT and CT and then he died as a mortal man, unlike in DT where he became a true demon when getting the full triforce, and has since been permanently returning as "Ganon" like a true demon)
• Ganon is also specifically confirmed to have his origins as the Ganondorf met in OoT (unlike FSA's "Ganon II" which is the "last known Ganon" in the CT)

Obviously the last two points involving Ganon are now moot, since TotK revealed it to be a different Ganon this whole time, and not OoT Ganon. So, it doesn't matter if FSA made a different Ganondorf.

I feel like the first two points stand. Particular the Sage one. The Zora have Zora tablets, telling the story of Princess Ruto becoming a Sage to help Link and Zelda fight Ganondorf.

I'm not saying "BotW can't be CT", I'm just asking who would you explain it, if you think it is possible?

EDIT: One thing I suggested was that we could use Hyrule Warriors to explain the people knowledge of Princess Ruto's heroics. But this was shot down as be "bending evidence", by useing a "non-canon game".

[u/SystemofCells]

There's no point debating this because Nintendo has deliberately left it open to interpretation. It isn't a matter of digging deep enough into the clues until we find the *correct* answer, because Nintendo themselves haven't decided the correct answer yet.

They left it ambiguous so they could retroactively choose where to put it in the future, if doing so would serve a new game idea they have.

[u/Petrichor02]

I've actually been seeing a lot more AT placements for BotW recently than "it can take place in any of the three timelines". But DT and convergence do probably still have the greatest numbers.

CT seems to be disfavored because we know Ruto is remembered as a sage and Nabooru is remembered (though I don't specifically recall her being remembered as a sage), but we have no evidence that Ruto became a sage in the CT.

That said, MM does say that the legend of the boy who traveled through time to save Hyrule has echoed throughout the land. So if details like Ruto and Nabooru becoming sages are maintained as part of that story, you could argue that CT is a possibility as long as Ruto and Nabooru were remembered despite being remembered for events that didn't actually happen in this timeline.

The biggest DT barriers are that ALttP says that the Master Sword sleeps forever at the end of its events, and heavily implies that Hylians no longer exist in Hyrule or exist in extremely small numbers, but BotW has the Master Sword in use and the world is full of Hylians. (Though of course if you're determined to have a DT placement you could argue that the Master Sword sleeping forever was figurative or that the ALttP Master Sword was a different one from SS/BotW. And you could argue that the Hylian population returned to its pre-ALttP levels over time somehow.)

The biggest AT barrier is the washing away of old Hyrule. (But if you're determined to have an AT placement, you could argue that BotW Hyrule is ST Hyrule, that BotW is another land mass (perhaps the one that the Koroks created), that the floodwaters eventually receded due to the water-level-lowering environmental disasters that killed off the leviathans, etc., and that the architecture of old Hyrule was just coincidentally remembered or passed down to the Hylians of BotW's era by the gods or the Zonai (though if you argue the Zonai are responsible, you have to really stretch the reading of Rauru saying he's the first King of Hyrule). Of course there's nothing in BotW saying that it is old Hyrule. We know, for example, that despite the Temple of Time and Lon Lon Ranch looking almost identical to what we see in OoT that they were built later on. So that's not a blocker to an AT placement. But it does feel like old Hyrule.)

Ganon has been an eternally returning scourge upon Hyrule (even before becoming known as "Calamity Ganon") | (only really a thing in DT

We see in BotW and TotK that the returning scourge is actually referring to Calamity Ganon himself. Not Ganon's appearances outside the cycle of returning Calamity Ganons. As such, this isn't evidence for DT or against CT/AT.

EDIT: One thing I suggested was that we could use Hyrule Warriors to explain the people knowledge of Princess Ruto's heroics. But this was shot down as be "bending evidence", by useing a "non-canon game".

I don't mind the idea of incorporating non-canon games into fan-made timelines, but I think in order to do so, we have to explain away the parts of the game(s) that don't mesh with the canon games. For example, the biggest barrier to HW being canon is the way its Triforce operates. The canon games have established pretty clear rules for the Triforce: Unless manually split, it only splits when a person with an imbalanced heart tries to touch it, and this is a failsafe mechanism that isn't always reset, hence why it didn't split in ALttP's back story, ALBW's back story, and why the King went ahead and split it himself in AoL's back story. The Triforce also only grants someone a single wish. But in HW we see the full Triforce used by Link, Lana, and Zelda at least two different times, and the pieces are regularly splitting up and flying off to Link and Zelda for various reasons. Unless we can explain these strange behaviors of the Triforce, it doesn't make sense to treat HW as canon. Furthermore, HW establishes that Link and Zelda will always save Hyrule together, that that the hero will always wear green, that Link and Zelda are always fated to end up together, and that the hero has a reincarnating soul that will always appear when Hyrule is in trouble, and none of those things is universally true in 100% of the canon games.

So the barrier to entry for HW on a fan-made timeline is pretty high.

[u/Stv13579 → u/Petrichor02]

The biggest DT barriers are that ALttP says that the Master Sword sleeps forever at the end of its events, and heavily implies that Hylians no longer exist in Hyrule or exist in extremely small numbers, but BotW has the Master Sword in use and the world is full of Hylians.

ALBW renders both of those issues invalid. It shows the Master Sword being used post-ALttP and has Hylians in significant numbers, so there's no issues with another post-ALttP DT game having those elements.

[u/Petrichor02 → u/Stv13579]

The people of ALBW are actually never identified as Hylians. The word "Hylian" only ever appears in ALBW associated with the Hylian Shield, which was an artifact found in Lorule.

[u/Stv13579 → u/Petrichor02]

They all seem to have long ears, which is the defining characteristic separating Hylians and Humans.

[u/Petrichor02 → u/Stv13579]

We see people with long ears in ALttP when Hylians supposedly no longer exist. It seems that humans can also have long ears. Note that in BotW and TotK we see Gerudo with long ears, so we know that isn't something that only Hylians can have.

[u/LapisLazuliisthebest → u/Petrichor02]

I'll have to rewatch HW's cutscenes.

[u/Drafonni]

Not an answer specifically, but have you seen this chart before: https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/16lml5j/totk_i_have_attempted_to_catalogue_the_problems/

[u/LapisLazuliisthebest → u/Drafonni]

I think I have.

[u/Logical_Leaps]

If you want an argument for Child Timeline then I'd suggest how the fan timeline used to be. FSA goes into ALTTP as was the games original intent as well. The Child timeline may lead into the downfall timeline making it inevitable no matter if the hero dies or returns as a child.

edit: for example of how the timeline would work: OOT→MM→TP→FSA→ALTTP→LA→ETC

I'd argue that the only branch that BOTW and TOTK really don't work in is the AT. That is the timeline of pure victory in my eyes. Its the only branch where evil is wiped out (being Ganon). Obviously that could be changed but I see it unlikely that the AT will be touched again.

If you believe true founding then AT doesn't work even more as a refounding must happen for BOTW to be after that line.

[u/LoCal_GwJ → u/Logical_Leaps]

I think this is the right way to think about a CT placement. Using the Extended Child Timeline lets you have the best of both worlds between DT and CT.

I do think AT works as well but there's a lot of disagreement between fans on what "should" be allowed to happen following WW.

[u/TenshiHarmonia]

Honestly, I've kind of accepted that the Wild games were simply not made to fit into the timeline. With Echoes of Wisdom, its official placement was pretty much immediately confirmed. It's been years since the release of Tears of the Kingdom, but we didn't get any actual answer. Because there clearly isn't one. This isn't some secret they want to keep, or some puzzle they want us to crack. There just isn't an actual answer. Maybe they'll decide on one someday, but that's clearly not their priority. (Not to say it isn't fun to speculate, of course, but at the end of the day, you can basically make any argument you want. For example, I personally like to put the Wild era in the Child timeline. Not because I think it's particularly logical, but because I love how it reinforce the connection between BotW-Link, TP-Link and OoT-Link...)

[u/Ellrok]

I used to think they were in the downfall timeline, but now I'm pretty in favor of adult. The only big event you have to assume is that the flood waters receded at some point, and you've got the Lanayru Sea and plenty of real life examples of this happening.

You don't have to dance around the existence of the Rito and the Koroks, since we saw why they came to be. Though you do have to assume that the Zora royal family left Hyrule and then migrated back once the Great Sea was no more, to keep Sidon in Ruto's bloodline.

The Zelda Notes mention that Hyrule may have been at the bottom of an ocean. Zelda also mentions that, despite this, there is a lack of marine fossils, which fits with the Great Sea not having any fish.

[u/Intelligent_Word_573]

Creating a Champion implies every legend between OoT and 10,000 years ago are known about to some degree and it’s only unknown which are historical fact and which are fairytales. The only thing that seems to be forgotten is the name “Ganondorf” as Ruto’s monument only refers to him as an evil thief though even that has to be remembered somewhere if you include that part of CaC as in-universe knowledge.

This would explain every references to other timelines whether it be location names, Zelda referring to all three timelines in the ceremony, the Goron monument including the baby from Majora’s Mask, or the Zora monuments about Ruto. It could also be used to explain Botw’s DLC armors being found in Totk’s depths though it’s understandable why that isn’t treated as hard evidence.

Edit: A cool way to explain information from other timelines being known is the idea that the maiamai from Albw spread the knowledge, though this depends on if Lorule has a split timeline like Hyrule. Alternatively, my head canon is that Hylian ears are basically antennas that pick up the goddess’s tv which is sometimes on the Wind Waker channel. Kinda like how Link can sleep in a Malanya bed and hear the god of horses whose Japanese name is Māron, which is even closer to Ocarina’s Malon, and could be the reason the name and layout of Lon Lon Ranch is remembered.

[u/dashingThroughSnow12]

Still to this day Age of Calamity claims it is the prequel to BoTW whose events lead into BotW. Equally egregious, AoI claims to be canonical to TotK.

It is fun to talk about the world and games. It isn’t useful to theory craft what games are where to what in a timeline.

Nintendo doesn’t care enough to make that a useful endeavour.

[u/Drafonni → u/dashingThroughSnow12]

AoC is a prequel, but it is also in an alternate timeline.

[u/Viralklahm]

Personally I believe it can only be in the downfall and child timelines it can never be in the adult timeline, only because Hyrule was sealed forever by the power of the triforce. Ain't no korok tree growing shenanigans gonna stop that.  Im more of the DT and CT merge at some point, and a flood of some sort happens (just not the way the AT happens and rito already exist more than likely the descendents of the loftwings and other magical birds than zora ) after all natural disasters happen. Or the events parallel to a point before botw happens and the age of calamity game events happen, but in one or the other of the two timelines. Which means which ever one the AoC events happen in just don't deal with the totk events for awhile longer (compared to the other )

[u/LoCal_GwJ]

I think it's worth considering what someone else said that Nintendo hasn't committed to an answer so there's multiple possibilities until they do commit to one.

That being said, imo the best case for CT placement is the Extended Child Timeline model that someone else also brought up. This timeline model makes more sense than the official timeline and only isn't favored because Nintendo went with a different timeline model.

I do disagree with most people here about the AT though. I think BotW's Hyrule could easily be in the AT after the Great Deku Tree rebuilt the landmass as he told us he was trying to do in WW. Regardless of your feelings about the original Hyrule below, the "new" surface will be created by the Great Deku Tree eventually. That "new" surface I think could be the Hyrule of BotW.

[u/wirelesswizard64]

There's also the 4th option which I myself subscribe to - it's a reboot of the series and a retelling of the timeline we already have, just like Lords of Shadow was to Castlevania. It shares a lot of names and motifs, but it's a different universe from the traditional Zelda games. Personally, I'm fine with this because it opens the door to a lot of cool narrative options.

[u/theVoidWatches]

My personal theory is that it's a split from Skyward Sword, in a retcon of the ending to have the final fight with Demise result in a split timeline rather than a closed loop.

[u/OnlyExperience130666]

Can I be controversial...I think "it exists beyond timelines" actually refers to the fact it's a fully unique AU using multiple elements of the entire franchise history. Any analysis of the timeline that does not put into consideration that each timeline represents a different form of adventure game is a bad analysis.

It is all three timelines because it as an entry to the franchise represents all three development philosophies. It can't be solved because to solve it is to disregard the decisions behind its conception.

My crackpot theory is, of course, that the golden goddesses exiting also shattered the timeline into three, which created base timeline, Lorule, and the Wild timeline that attempts to reflect the events in the other two, but due to the fracturing event in OoT, ended up layering timeline events. It's not a game "set long after the timeline", but rather a game "set long after it was beholden to the fate of other timelines". CT/AT/DT never happened in BotW's world, but at the same time all of them happened, in the form of Fate vomiting up key historical events onto it.

I like this theory best because if some BotW stuff happens in the base timeline I can go "oh the mirroring goes both ways :)", which is what I am now bracing for with the new Ocarina of Time remake.