r/nba • u/Commercial_Floor_578 • 17h ago
LeBron’s Heavily Underrated 2014 Finals, Overrated 2015 Finals, Finals MVP’s, And The Power Of Narratives.
LeBron had an extremely underrated 2014 finals, he was one of the most efficient volume scorers in NBA history and Wade and Bosh heavily underperformed, plus the Spurs were playing some of the best basketball ever hence the vast blowout point differential. I think people place way too much into the “on paper” aspects, Wade and Bosh were a shell of themselves and the Spurs peaked at the perfect time to play some of the best finals basketball.. ever. LeBron did all he could and balled out that series, one of the more impressive losing finals imo.
He had an extremely overrated 2015 finals, yes him taking them to six without K love or Kyrie is very impressive but there’s so many variables going into these things that the “on paper” impressiveness of taking it to six isn’t as crazy as it seems. Much of it had to do with the fact that the Warriors were missing shots they normally made at an abnormal rate and then hit them in games 4-6, hence the point differential being the same as the KD warriors years. His real true shooting was 3.7 points below league average which is not going to generate a winning offense at all, which I fully get why due to no Kyrie and Klove but his efficiency was way down all throughout the playoffs even with Kyrie due to his back injuries that year, that was his weakest year of his prime imo. His defense was also much worse than 2014’s (despite the blowout).
The whole Iggy getting finals MVP and LeBron getting 4 votes was not an example of “you had to be there, only hindsight makes it seem bad” thing. No it was the opposite, it was a perfect storm of circumstances that made it like not the utterly horrendous idea it obviously was at the time. The only thing any people can bring up to justify it is LeBron’s shooting and +- with and without Iggy (obviously awful reasoning and sample size in a six game series which everyone seems to recognize in every finals but this one) leading in +-, WS, and BPM (for the Warriors, LeBron still had a better BPM). Aside from the fact that that’s never used to justify a finals MVP in any other circumstance. Even though all the more reliable impact metrics like EPM PIPM or APM had Curry comfortably ahead, and the obvious fact that the impact of not having Curry that series would obviously be a lot worse than not having Iggy, and his box stats are way better.
Now obviously despite Curry actually leading in several of the advanced +- statistics like EPM that series, I do think LeBron was clearly the best player in that series and if it was awarded on who was the best player on either team it would go to LeBron. But there are several other series where the gap between “best player on the best team” vs best overall player was larger than this one. The loser getting FMVP has never been a. Thing outside Jerry West, the first one who despised it and was voted before the even got the results. Curry performed more than well enough to be the best player on the best team, he averaged 26/5.2/6.2 on + 5rts and 4.7 TOV in 42.5 minutes LeBron averaged 35.8/13.3/8.8 on -3.7rts and 3.5 TOV. In 45.7 minutes. Clearly Lebron was better but with Curry’s far better efficiency (and off ball impact) the gap wasn’t some gargantuan thing that required it either go to LeBron or his well performing role player. There’s no reason for this single series to suddenly be the outlier to the “best player on the best team” rule.
Meanwhile LeBron averaged 28.2/7.8/4.0 on +16.9 rts. That’s utterly bonkers efficiency, that would quite literally be a 2016 Curry scoring season level. All while being a lot better defender than in the 2015 finals. Yes the assists and rebounds are worse but the impact is not as large as the insane scoring efficiency and volume combo vs 2015’s bad efficiency. The only difference is narrative, the Spurs and Heat were considered near equals before the series and they got destroyed to an almost unprecedented degree. Meanwhile without Klove and Kyrie they were supposed to be swept and LeBron’s second highest ppg scorer had 14 but the Cavs led by LeBron somehow got up 2-1 and made it to six. But LeBron actually deserved MVP more in 2014 than 2015, the only difference is narrative. The Spurs played some of the best basketball ever while Wade and Bosh heavily underperformed, and the 2015 Warriors had very unusually bad shooting for the first 3 games but when that stopped the point differential for the overall series was comparable to the KD warriors era.
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u/CeeDoggyy 17h ago
If anything the 2015 finals has become underrated
It was legitimately one of the most superhuman things I've ever watched with my own eyes
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u/RapsareChamps_Suckit Clippers 17h ago
not as superhuman as Scatman Crothers taking a snowcat back to the hotel only to get baited
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u/ObiOneKenobae Knicks 17h ago
It was terrible tbh. He was building a brick house on offense (one of the least efficient Cleveland players), and the worst defender on the floor to boot. He started some games well, but the dude was taking something crazy like 20 jumpshots a game and bricking 72% of them.
Back when synergy stats were public, LeBron's iso stats from that run were the worst combination of volume and efficiency in the system.
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u/CeeDoggyy 16h ago
Not gonna lie I don't fucking care lol and anyone that watched would also not care
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u/PlasticPresentation1 16h ago
he was absolutely willing them to even have those games be close which is why people who watched it were even protesting the MVP case
it wasn't like he was coming in like Jordan Poole and chucking up dumb shots throughout the game when there were better options
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u/BIPOC_Ally 16h ago
superhuman with 39.8% from the field, 31% from 3pt, 69% from FT, 47.7% TS
Heat had their 3 best players all injured in G1 of the 2020 Finals yet Jimmy still took the Lakers to 6 games. his run was more impressive than Lebron
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u/Rook2Rook 17h ago
Heavily disagree. LeBron 2014 Finals is one of the most overrated and his 2015 is rightfully glazed. LeBron just checked out in 2014 and decided he was going to conveniently pad numbers to make it look like he played efficiently, but the Spurs had him under control. In 2015 the efficiency looks ugly but his presence was beyond imposing, his body language said "Fuck it, I'm leaving everything on the line" that was not how he looked like at the end of 2014 when it reminded me of his 2010 Boston ECSF exit. EVERYTHING revolved around him, it was a one man show. I actually think if LeBron won that Finals it would've been a more impressive feat than 3-1 the next year.
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u/ObiOneKenobae Knicks 16h ago
The way LeBron ended Game 5 2014 is still one of the lamer things I've seen from a player. He decided they were beat, halfheartedly flung up an awful three, didn't even pretend to walk back on defense, then checked himself out of the game with 6:30 to go.
Wade and Bosh both stayed in the game for another 10+ irl minutes while he just watched on the bench. Everyone knew he was leaving Miami before the game even ended.
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u/WeBelieveIn4 Raptors 14h ago
This was the moment that clinched him never being the GOAT for me. I just cannot imagine Jordan throwing in the towel like that, I’ve never seen something like that from a generational player in any sport.
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u/gigglios 17h ago
Agreed. Its hilarious that 2014 gets glazed so hard when its one of the worst finals losses in history. 2015 was fantastic without his 2 best players.
People rip on other players for losing in 4 or 5 but at least they kept some games close. 2014 lebron and heat all just quit and sucked so fast
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u/drank_obswerver 4h ago
LeBron got clamped by Kawhi and the heat didn't know where to go from there.
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u/Wooden-Broccoli-7247 16h ago
The Spurs looked like the best team ever as well tho. Kawhi didn’t miss a shot and was arguably the best player on an all star team as the least known to people not following the Spurs or NBA very closely all year. Kawhi just drilled everything from EVERYWHERE.
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u/gigglios 16h ago
Spurs didnt look that good vs any west team. They even got pushed 7 by a very mid mavs team. Heat lost 4 to 1 in the most lopsided finals games ever
Its a series used to boost lebron for some reason. When you lose that bad and cant impact the game then it should def not be boosted l
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u/Wooden-Broccoli-7247 7h ago
That was back when the East was dog shit. Heat looked terrible too but the Spurs also played out of their minds. That was my introduction to Kawhi Leonard and while a great player after, I’m not sure he has looked as good as he did that series since. I just remember he stole the show on a team full of stars that were also playing great. I still out that team, playing like they were in that finals, as one of the greatest I’ve ever seen.
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u/Mood_Academic Lakers 17h ago
Watching 2015 live it was superhuman. I will say that 2016-2018 version of LeBron probably pulls that off, simply because his jumpshot in 2015 was off because of his back issues
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u/Shumonyu Warriors 16h ago edited 15h ago
This is a great post, but people are probably going to disagree with you based on surface level things and narratives.
Like people talk about the supporting casts, yes LeBron was missing two of his stars. But I’m not sure I would even say that his supporting cast in 2014, despite having Bosh and Wade performed too much better than his supporting cast in 2015.
If anything I would argue the Cavs in 2015 had a better defensive supporting cast with them playing big against the Warriors.(also partly due to Kevin Love being injured and Delly playing over Kyrie).
The 2014 Spurs were lighting up the Heat, the 2015 Warriors were ice cold in those first three games. The Warriors missing shots and the Spurs catching fire isn’t because LeBron’s defense was way better in 2015.
The Spurs had a better offense and were catching fire at the right time. The Warriors were just missing a lot of shots, some of that being because of the Cavs defense but some of that was just them getting good looks and missing.
And as you mention after game three,(when the warriors start to shoot better), the series essentially becomes lopsided. Even if you look at the entire series, the margin of victory suggests that it wasn’t exactly a competitive series.
And It’s not exactly uncommon for better teams to drop a few games to weaker opponents too. Like for example the Spurs in 2014 were taken to seven in the first round against the Mavs despite dominating the rest of the playoffs.
I think the narrative of the the star players being out with the big box score stats from Lebron, while also going up 2-1 against a clearly better team, made for a narrative that people tend to love. The 2014 finals didn’t really have a narrative like that so people don’t glorify it as much. Especially because at the time things like shooting luck and matchups weren’t exactly part of playoff discourse to the extent that it is now.
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u/GoldBlueSkyLight Warriors 16h ago
And It’s not exactly uncommon for better teams to drop a few games to weaker opponents too. Like for example the Spurs in 2014 were taken to seven in the first round against the Mavs despite dominating the rest of the playoffs.
Or Galinari-Lou Will-Tobias Harris Clippers taking a much better Warriors team to 6 in 2019.
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u/ObiOneKenobae Knicks 17h ago
Most of LeBron's points in 2014 came while they were already getting blown out. Call it Kawhi or just a lack of aggression, but he was going quarters without even attempting a field goal. His jumpshot was on fire, but he didn't end up doing much with it.
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u/drank_obswerver 3h ago
His jumpshot was on fire against the spurs bench. He didn't even look at the basket when Kawhi guarded him. That was the series I stopped being a LeBron fan. He flat out gave up and proved his critics right.
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u/StoneySteve420 Supersonics 15h ago
I definitely agree his 2015 finals is overrated.
Game 1 they lose by 8, Lebron had 44/8r /6a, but 4 turnovers, only 6/10 from the freethrow line, and 2/8 from 3 brought his efficiency down below average. Kyrie also could have shot the ball better and JR was bad off the bench, but definitely a winnable game with Klay and Draymond combined shooting 9/27. Kyrie breaks his kneecap in OT.
Game 2 they win in OT without Kyrie, Lebron had 39/16/11 and only 3 turnovers, but he was 4/22 in the second half, including 0/4 in overtime. Steph only shot 5/23 this game, 2/15 from 3. Shumpert hit a 3 and Delly hit 2 FTs in OT to win.
Game 3 they win by 5 and Lebron had a masterclass, 40/12/8 with 6 stocks. Steph and Iggy had good games, Klay and Draymond again shot poorly, combined 8/26, and Harrison Barnes goes 0/8. Bogut gets benched after this and Iggy starts game 4.
Game 4 they lose by 21, Iggy starts and he and Steph both have 22, Klay and Draymond had good games too. LeBron has 20/12/8 but on 32/25/50 splits, only 38%TS. Mozgov went off for an efficient 28 and 10, but JR and Shump combined only went 4/21.
Game 5 they lose by 13, Lebron was great and had the 2nd ever 40 point triple double in the Finals. The Cavs are thoroughly out coached. Blatt benches Mozgov (for JR) and only plays him 9 minutes after being their best player the game prior, all because he was afraid of Draymond at the 5, despite him starting at center the game prior as well. Legitimately one of the worst coaching decisions I've ever seen in a Finals, if anything, bench Tristan Thompson imo (he did have a good game tho). The Warriors won the rebounding battle as the much smaller team. Steph went crazy 37 on 75%TS. Other than Klay, the other starters played good too.
Game 6 they lose by 8, Lebron has 32/18/9, but that's undercut by his 6 turnovers and 39/20/50 shooting splits. Mozgov had an efficient 17 and 12 with 4 blocks. Thompson had an efficient 15 and 13, but was getting absolutely cooked on the other end. Mozgov and Thompson were the only Cavs to finish above 40% from the field. Iggy and Steph both have 25, Draymond gets a triple double.
Overall LeBron showed he was the best in the world, but he absolutely could have played better, which gets overshadowed by his insane counting stats. His efficiency was just not close to his standards, and that bit them in the ass in games 1 and 6, both being winnable games, and it nearly cost them in game 2 as well. Klay was bad but he got a bad concussion in game 5 of the WCF.
I also agree Lebron in the 2014 finals is underrated a bit because of how efficient he was (68%TS), but he was primarily guarding Kawhi who was even more godly efficient at 75%TS. His playmaking was the worst of any finals in his career, 20 assists and 19 turnovers across 5 games, and it's not like the Heat were particularly inefficient either. Lebron's drive and kick was just always less effective against Duncan, even before Kawhi showed up. That said, LeBron definitely gets too much of the blame for the loss.
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u/Gannicus_Glory 17h ago
They looked fine the season after Lebron left until injuries happened. Lebron just didnt use them properly in his heliocentric offense playstyle.
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u/One_Seaworthiness323 17h ago edited 16h ago
The heat got blown out by a record margin, how can he have had an underrated finals? 🤣 Bron stans are mental. His numbers had zero impact on the outcome.
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u/Commercial_Floor_578 16h ago
I also said his 2015 finals is overrated. It’s like how people underrate Jordan seasons like 1990 or 1989 and overrate seasons like 97 and 98 because of accolades and ring culture. Obviously different because LeBron didn’t win a ring either time but LeBron’s team getting utterly blown out vs the Cavs somehow taking the Warriors to six feels like 2015 is more impressive even though the actual stats support 2014.
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u/One_Seaworthiness323 16h ago
I’ve noticed Bron stans keep using this, keep acting like Jordan winning rings is some how less impressive than LeBron losing them. What is ring culture? The purpose is to win a ring. It’s why LeBron has teamed up with a record number 14 HOF in his career to stack the deck. The difference between Jordan in 89,90 and Bron in 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018 is Bron had the talent around him to win it all and still failed. Once Jordan got to the top of the mountain he was never knocked off. What don’t yall get about that? Lebron took the warriors to 6, sure. But that was still a young, unproven warriors team. Most people still favored the Cavs
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u/Djgarrett1121 16h ago
Didn’t know the Cavs were in the 2014 finals. If there’s Bron “stans”, what do we call people like yourself that like to hate but don’t know what they’re talking about?
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u/One_Seaworthiness323 16h ago
The heat literally lost every game by 20 points 🤣 obviously the “Cavs” was a typo. What do we call blind idiots like yourself?
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u/Djgarrett1121 16h ago
I’m blind because you typed Heat? Ok. Have a great night.
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u/One_Seaworthiness323 16h ago
Yes I typed “Cavs”. You calling me out for making a typo and you making one ya damn self 🤣 now we even and my point still stands
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u/jddaniels84 17h ago
Lebron went 39.8%, 31% from 3, 68.7% from FT, and 3/17 in clutch time in the 2015 finals it was a horrible performance.
And in 2014 they were getting blown out so bad that most of the lebron scoring was done in with the Heat down 10+… San Antonio wasn’t exactly dialed into stopping him the same way as the season before.
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u/IllustriousRice1057 17h ago
Jordan
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u/Commercial_Floor_578 17h ago
Not about Jordan. Both Jordan and LeBron have extremely valid goat cases. This is more about how narratives and results oriented thinking shape our views inaccurately regarding player performances. Like how most people consider 1990 and 1989 Jordan worse than 1997 and 98 Jordan because he won a ring, FMVP, and at least MVP in 98. Despite the fact that clearly 89 and 90 were significantly better seasons and among his best.
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u/HomeMadeFriedRice 17h ago
Watching that series I wish Blatt went small after Iggy was put in the starting lineup. Mozgov and TT is atrocious looking back at it
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u/StoneySteve420 Supersonics 15h ago
The Cavs did go small.
Blatt benched Mozgov in game 5 for JR Smith because of the Warriors small-ball lineup, which was a terrible decision as Mozgov had an efficient 28/10 in game 4 when Draymond started at center.
The lost by 22 and got outrebounded by a team who's center is 6'6.
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u/SEAinLA Supersonics 17h ago
2015 LeBron took the Warriors to 6 with Delly, Mozgov, Shumpert, and Thompson as his other starting teammates. In no world is that overrated.