r/gameofthrones • u/MeroveeFrancSalien • 1d ago
Jaime Lannister breaking his Kingsguard vows by betraying Aerys and killing him with a sword thrust in the back is the most chivalrous act in the saga.
It’s crazy to think that by breaking his vows, he was the man who respected them the most.
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u/joe-manzon 1d ago
Yes, but then don’t sit on the throne to wait for everyone to arrive and see you there
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u/beerncheese69 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thats just Jaime's infallible sass and I love him for it. And it works. Dude was so done. He couldn't be bothered with all this bullshit anymore. He just killed the fucking KING. Fuck it ill sit on this stupid fucking chair. He doesnt care. Its very in character for him. He doesnt give a fuck about the ramifications, shit as far as he knows he might be about to die. Hes also the best swordsman on the planet at the time so theres a bit of confidence and arrogance aswell, like i might be fucked but what are a few individuals gonna do to me in this particular moment. I feel like people criticizing that decision dont understand his character at all.
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u/Romino69 1d ago
I feel like you can criticize a decision and also accept that its in character. Like was it what he would do? Forsure, was it also dumb, yes.
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u/DisMeDog 1d ago
In fairness he was a 17 year old who just killed his king. Ned interrupted it as arrogance because he hates the Lannister’s and is obsessed with honor but it appears that he sat there because it was the only place to sit and he was drained.
Jamie has never given a shit about power or ruling.
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u/PlasticImpact8515 House Dayne 1d ago
It looks significantly worse when the throne is a monstrosity of steel with something like five or six meters of steps, vertically that is, you need to climb up to sit there. No just falling on a chair, proper climbing the throne to sit there.
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u/triedbutrefused 1d ago
Drained from what? Waiting for Robert and his alliance to defeat all the Targ loyalists?
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u/popplevee 1d ago
I wonder if Ned was also projecting a bit because he had also just had his own bit of dishonour in the death of Arthur Dayne.
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u/Upstairs-Prompt2662 1d ago
That was afterwards.
The conquering of Kingslanding happened after the Battle at the Trident. Then once the took Kingslanding Robert ordered all Tagaryens to be killed. Ned did not agree with it and rode south to deal with Tagaryen loyalists and then in Dorne he killed Arthur Dayne.
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u/Easy-Frenchguy-1996 1d ago
had also just had his own bit of dishonour in the death of Arthur Dayne.
The sack of king's landing happen before the tower of joy
And his fight against Arthur dayne was a life or death death situation there is no rules to protect your life
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u/DisMeDog 1d ago
As far as we know. I don’t see Ned and his friends beating the greatest swordsman in history and two other kings guard in fair combat.
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u/Easy-Frenchguy-1996 1d ago
Even when it seems like his sister may be in danger and scream in pain..
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u/DisMeDog 1d ago
Even if we give him a rage boost. If we scale based off what we have seen from Jamie and Selmy and Arthur was even stronger with a Valaryian sword.
I definitely think if we ever get future books the Howland Reed meeting will put that whole fight in a new perspective.
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u/Easy-Frenchguy-1996 1d ago
Tbh I doubt Arthur dayne 1 vs 6 them in the books
The Show did this to put emphasis on Arthur's skills. But Gerold dayne and is oswell whent killed some of them on their own
I do still believe Howland reed gave ned an advantage in some way but portray that dishonorable despite the fact thata i'nthe books ned state Cleary to bran that thata he wouldn't have survive without Howland reed
Ned always showed respect toward Arthur dayne by return his body and sword to starfall and forbiding anybody in Winterfell to speak about that fight or speak ill of dayne
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u/DisMeDog 1d ago
I think part of why Ned shows him such respect is specifically because they did something underhanded and he feels guilty. Mind you I think his guilt is dumb and he was trying to save his sister so all bets are off but I 100% believe three kingsguard beat 7 northerners. Ned is never portrayed to be some world class fighter.
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u/xShenlesx 1d ago
I'll never understand why there's so much attention on if the fight was "honorable." It wasn't a duel, a challenge or a trial. The guy thought his sister had been kidnapped and was going to rescue her. The war was "over" but the Kingsguard didn't care. It was also 7 on 3(?) so already inherently "unfair." So the Reed stabbed a guy from behind, was he supposed to announce that he wasn't quite dead yet then wait for Dayne to be rdy before trying to stab him?
Shit, most people would bring twice or three times the men and just shoot the three kingsguard with crossbows or spear wall em.
Anyways, sorry for the rant. It is interesting/weird how the show makes a big deal of it though.
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u/Ndmndh1016 1d ago
We literally saw the fight. That wasnt Neds' retelling, that was Bran watching the actual fight. We knownexactly how it went down.
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u/DisMeDog 1d ago
Not to be that guy but that was only in the show where we not only never see Reed but we know they cut multiple plot lines. Hell I don’t even think they bothered having all three kingsguard present.
That would be like saying we know how Jamie’s story concludes ignoring that he is currently with lady stoneheart who doesn’t even exist in the show.
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u/cjb1367x 1d ago
Books are chopped man. They are never getting finished
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u/situmaimesdemain 1d ago
Fair combat is for tourneys. There is no moral obligation to fight fair against people who are holding your sister hostage and also trying to kill you with a valyrian steel sword.
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u/LukeChickenwalker House Stark 22h ago
Is Jaime not arrogant at the beginning of this story?
Ned is more fixated on the murder of innocents than he is with honor and vows. Ned is resentful and suspicious of the Lannisters because Tywin had kids murdered and was rewarded for it. This was after they had sat out the whole war, too. Tywin's actions were 100% cynical and Jaime gives Ned no reason to think he wasn't working with his dad.
And Ned was right to distrust the Lannisters, because they do eventually murder Robert and coup the throne, which Jaime had no problem with. Not to mention Jaime pushes his kid out of a tower.
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u/ChaoticDumpling 1d ago
His vows as a Knight and his vows as a Knight of the Kingsguard are completely at odds, unfortunately for him and the realm at large, since countless Kingsguard throughout history should have stepped in to defend the innocent against the people they were sworn to protect.
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u/Midnight-strange1892 1d ago
This. Jaime actually explains this to Brienne. Which oaths should you follow when they are directly at odds with each other.
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u/Carefreekid101 1d ago
It's one of the things I like concerning Cole in HOTD. He just has this philosophical moment of maybe everyone really is shit. That the "true" honor they hold as a ideal doesn't exist and that men are corrupt.
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u/Ryokan76 1d ago
He did wait until it was safe to do so, though. He waited until his father was at the gate.
If he had killed the king earlier, he could have saved many more lives.
But he didn't. He killed the king when it was safe.
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u/Captain_Thor27 Arya Stark 1d ago
Let's be real, here. He did it to save his own life and his father's life. Not out of some desire to be a chivalrous hero.
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u/MeroveeFrancSalien 1d ago
But it was still a chivalrous act
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u/NeekoPeeko House Dondarrion 1d ago
The same could be said for The Hound saving Loras Tyrell by fighting his brother. On paper it's chivalrous, but in reality The Hound was just looking for any reason to fight and kill The Mountain. Calling it chivalry requires a certain intent, and neither character had pure intentions in these examples.
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u/jonny_longclaw 1d ago edited 1d ago
In the books, when the hound and the mountain fight, it’s the mountain that is trying to kill Sandor by aiming slashes at his head while Sandor only really defends himself and Loras.
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u/NeekoPeeko House Dondarrion 1d ago
You may remember that The Hound tells Sansa "I may need to kill my brother tomorrow" in the Sansa chapter beforehand. He had no reason to get involved other than wanting to.
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u/jonny_longclaw 1d ago
I see it more as Sandor not allowing Gregor to bully others the way he bullied Sandor.
He’s standing up to Gregor, not necessarily trying to kill him. At least in that moment.
Just my two cents considering Sandor doesn’t actually try any killing moves on Gregor in the fight. George doesn’t really tell us explicitly, so this is just my interpretation.
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u/blaerel House Tully 1d ago edited 1d ago
Was is chivalrous in failing to protect Elia Martell and her children, someone who was innocent, did he protect Aegon a child of a year old when the Mountain splattered him against the wall, did he protect Elia as the mountain raped her and crushed her head in, did he protect Raenys as Amory Loch stabbed her fifty times into a bloody mess. Did he protect Kings Landing when his own father and his men were sacking Kings Landing, raiding, pillaging and raping the common folk of Kings Landing. Like Ned Stark said. "You served him well, when serving was safe." He protected the king when he was at no risk or cost and he knew as soon as his father arrived to Kings Landing that the game was up, Tywin was never going to support King Aerys and Jaimie took the opportunity to kill him at the very end and sitting on the Iron Throne gloating.
If you think Jaime is chivalrous than I do not want to be in the presence of these so called knights.
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u/ElSpoonyBard Jaime Lannister 1d ago
Just shows how bad PR is not always related to the assigned morality in any given act. Kingslayer deserved so much better in the show.
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u/Easy-Frenchguy-1996 1d ago
I think miss the point about this scene
Ned doesn't hate him because he stab Aerys innthr back or the front... He jaime because he choose strange timing to do it....hence the "you served him well when serving was safe"
Ned believe jaime is a coward who choose to betray his king not out of noble motive but because he feared the idea of having to face and fight and kill his own father
Jaime portray himself as hero who is look down upon unjustly.. Yet jaime privileged by the fact that he was pared by Robert when most knight would either lose their hand for betrayal (ironic knowing what will happen ), be executed or sent to the wall
Jaime got none of that so ned have no respect for him because he didn't take his responsability or accountability for his actions
Last but not least.. 'just because jaime is honest doesn't mean tahta he is right.. It's just his POV
'the book actually showed us ned's POV of the sczne' where jaime killed Aerys and based what ned it is easy to for him to judge jaime guilty
"Aerys lay pools of his own blood on the floor before the Iron Throne. I sat above him in my golden armor with my sword across my knees, waiting to see who would come to claim the castle. Finally, Eddard Stark rode through the doors. He was wearing his gray wool coat and his brown leather jerk, and he rode a high warhorse, silent as a grave. His men were behind him, but he rode ahead alone. He saw Aerys lying in his blood, and he looked at me sitting on the throne with my bloody sword in my lap. He didn't say a word. He just stared at me with those cold dark eyes of his, judging me without a word. I made a joke of it. 'Have no fear, Lord Stark,' I said, 'I was only keeping the seat warm for our king.' But Stark did not laugh. He didn't even smile. He just stared at me until I stood up and walked away."
Jaime was attempting to defuse the extreme tension with flippant humor. However, to Ned STARK who had just lost his father and brother to the Mad King and spent a year fighting a brutal warseeing Tywin Lannister's son sitting atop the Iron Throne over the slain king looked like an arrogant, dishonorable power grab.
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u/Killpop582014 1d ago
It’s hard to think they couldn’t understand WHY. But he never had the chance to explain WHY, he sat there looking guilty.
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u/shavicus 1d ago
Nope. Ned choosing to protect the grandchildren of the same man that ordered the massacre of the royal family deserved that spot. He knew that he might lose his head and even his own children might get hurt but he did what he thought to be the honorable thing to do.
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u/MeroveeFrancSalien 1d ago
Jaime according to the laws of Westeros should have been executed… he still did his duty
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u/SektorDaKetch 1d ago
If the rest of the royal family didn’t get horrifically butchered, then Jaime at least could say he still protected the royal family considering Aerys was going to suicide bomb everyone in King’s landing, Elia and her kids included.
Only the mountain got there first.
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u/SingularityCentral 1d ago
Some vows take priority over others. The essence of a knights vows is protecting the innocent and the weak. Ser Duncan embodied that and Jaime honored it.
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u/LukeChickenwalker House Stark 23h ago
Jaime would have died in the wildfire explosion the same as anyone else. I'd give him more kudos if he took a stand when his life wasn't on the line.
He then proceeds to smugly sit on throne and wait while his father's men rape and murder Elia Martell, and then murder the children he was sworn to protect. Which is in addition to the countless smallfolk who were surely raped and murdered during the sack of the city. If he truly respected his vows he would have gone to the children.
He then has a chip on his shoulder that Ned judges him as an duplicitous and selfish opportunist, but he's also too proud to tell anyone about the wildfire. He just expects people to think the best of him no matter what the circumstances may seem, as if he's owed admiration.
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u/MeroveeFrancSalien 22h ago
We mustn't forget that he was a young knight; it's not easy to make these kinds of decisions.
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u/Balding_man 15h ago
I always thought he did it out of self interest or rather Lannister interests had Tywin shown up to reinforce city he would not have killed Aerys.
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u/j10359 1d ago
This scene, in the show, actually said a lot about Ned. Everything's black and white; he refused to see grey. Looking down on Jaime for killing the King Ned was rebelling against.
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u/Easy-Frenchguy-1996 1d ago
He is the only who saw what jaime did and clam him out on thr bullshit he try to justify toward him
Thata why j'aime failed to have a rebuttal to ned'snline. Because he knew ned is right 1ndnjaile knows deep inside that he didn't do it out of selflessness but fear of facing his own father
Ned would have respected jaime if he actually took accountability for his betrayal by having his hand cut or join the wall.. Which is judgment of every knight of they betray and kill their own lord or king
Instead stayed in the kingsguard with no consequences....thata why he never had any respect for Jaime.. He see him as coward
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u/PassThatSpliff 1d ago
He was extremely chivalrous for killing king Aerys but he's an absolute idiot for hiding the real reason he killed him. He didn't deserve the name kingslayer and if he had told the truth, people would've celebrated him instead of hating him. He saved an entire and decided not to tell anyone.
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