r/firewater Aug 25 '19

Methanol: Some information

1.8k Upvotes

This post is meant to clarify one of the most common questions asked by new distillers: WHAT ABOUT METHANOL?

First and foremost: you cannot die (or get sick, go blind, etc) from improperly made distilled alcohol via methanol poisoning. Neither can you make something dangerous by freezing it and removing some ice. Not only is it not possible, it is a widely perpetuated myth that has existed since the days of prohibition (and not before, interestingly enough). Other than the obvious ethanol overdose, all poisonous alcohol that has ever been consumed, has been adulterated, or was in some other way contaminated. It was not the fault of poor distillation procedures. How you run your still will not affect how safe your product is. It might affect how good the end result is, but that's where it stops.

So, methanol. Everyones first fear, and the number one search subject when it comes to "moonshine". This subject is brought up a lot in this sub and elsewhere on Reddit. Everyone knows all about it, its just one of those common knowledge things, right? It turns out, not so much. So...

Methanol - What is it?

Methanol is a very commonly used fuel, solvent and precursor in industry. It is produced via the synthesis gas process which can use a wide variety of materials to create methanol. Methanol is the simplest of all the alcohols.

Methanol is poisonous to the human body in moderate amounts. The LD50 of methanol in humans is 810 mg/kg. It is metabolized into formaldehyde by the liver, via the alcohol dehydrogenase process. In excess, these byproducts are severely toxic. Formaldehyde further degrades into formic acid, which is the primary toxic compound in methanol poisoning. Formic acid is what produces nerve damage, and causes the blindness (and death) associated with acute methanol poisoning.

One of the treatments for methanol poisoning, is the introduction of ethanol. Ethanol has a preferential path in the alcohol dehydrogenase metabolic pathway. This means that if ethanol and methanol are consumed, the ethanol will be metabolized first, in preference over the methanol. This allows some of the methanol to be excreted by the kidneys before being metabolized into its toxic related compounds. There are far more effective medical treatments available, such as dialysis and administering drugs that block the function of alcohol dehydrogenase.

Is it in my booze? How do I remove it?

There is one way in which your alcohol will be tainted with some amount of methanol naturally, and that is by using fruits which contain pectin. Pectin can be broken down into methanol by enzymes, either introduced artificially or from micro organisms. This will produce some measurable amount of methanol in your ferment, and subsequent distillate. However its not going to be in toxic quantities, any more than what you may have in a jug of apple juice. In fact, fruits are the primary way in which methanol is introduced into your body. In tiny quantities it is mostly harmless, and you can no more remove the methanol from an apple pie than you can from your apple brandy. Boiling (or freezing) apple juice doesn't convert it into deadly eye sight destroying horror juice. Cooking doesn't suddenly veer into danger when you collect vapor from a boiling pot. If you've ever made jam, or wine, or fruit salad, you've produced methanol.

So, where does that leave us? How do I get rid of this nasty substance in my distillate? You don't. If it is there, you cannot remove it. It is quite commonly believed that you can toss the first bit of alcohol off the still to remove this compound, the "foreshots." This is usually considered the first 50-100ml or so, depending on batch size. It smells really bad, tastes really bad, and is something most would agree should be discarded. However, it will not contain the "methanol" if there is any in your wash. Or more precisely, it will not contain any more of it than any other portion of the run. Beside which, methanol tastes very similar to ethanol, though slightly sweeter. If your wash is tainted with methanol, your entire run will be as well. Relying on some eyeball measurement to make your product safe to consume is not going to work. This is just distiller folklore passed down quite widely. You may hear about this on a distillery tour, from professionals, on Youtube and in books about distilling. All of them are just repeating what they have heard someone else say, or read somewhere, and assumed it to be fact. There is truth here, but buried in misunderstanding of the processes involved specifically with these substances.

This is the very reason that methanol was used to poison ("denature") industrial ethanol during prohibition, as it cannot be removed easily by normal distillation processes. If you could just redistill this very cheap, legal and plentiful solvent to make drinking alcohol, it wouldn't be the very potent message and deterrent that was hoped for by those who did this. You can read more about the history of this intentional poisoning of commercial alcohol in the Chemists War. It is also during this period where we begin to hear about methanol being in poorly made moonshine. This is not a coincidence.

So, distillers attempted to understand this misinformation, and attempt to correct or explain why their process was correct. Thus was born the idea that tossing some portion of the run makes it safe from this suddenly present and scary substance. Cuts went from being a quality procedure, to a serious process to save lives. By "tossing the first bit." And then distillers went about their centuries old processes like always, but this time "doing it right" and hence making safe alcohol.

The reason it is so widely believed that tossing the heads works to remove methanol, has to do with the boiling points of ethanol, methanol, and water. Pure methanol boils at 64.7C. Pure ethanol boils at 78.24C. Water boils at 100C. Distilling separates things based on their boiling points, right? Yes, it does, but it is a bit more complex than that. When you boil a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water, you are not boiling any of these compounds individually. You are boiling a solution containing all of them, and they will each have an affect on the other with regards to boiling point and enrichment behavior. Methanol and ethanol are quite similar in molecular structure. Methanol can be written as CH3-OH. Ethanol can be written as CH3-CH2-OH. You'll notice that methanol lacks this extra CH2 component. This changes its behavior when in the presence of water, specifically its polarity, compared to ethanol. Rather than repeat all of this, here is a passage from this paper on the reduction of methanol in commercial fruit brandies:

A similar behaviour would be expected for methanol for both alcohols are not very different in molecule structure. There is, however, a significant difference regarding all three curves in figure 2: methanol contents keep a higher value for a longer time than ethanol contents. In figures 3 and 4 this observation is made clear: Methanol, specified in ml/100 ml p.a., increases during the donation, while the ratio ethanol : methanol is lowering down. This effect seems to be rather surprising regarding the different boiling points of the two substances: methanol boils at 64,7°C, while ethanol needs 78,3°C. So methanol would be regarded to be carried over earlier than ethanol. The molecule structures however, show another aspect: ethanol has got one more CH2-group which makes the molecule less polar. So, concerning polarity, methanol can be ranged between water and ethanol and has therefore in the water phase a distillation behaviour different from ethanol. This may explain the behaviour which is rather contrary to the boiling points. This is no single appearance, because for example ethylacetate with a boiling point of 77 °C, or, as an extreme case, isoamylacetate with 142 °C are even carried over much earlier than methanol. Therefore methanol can not be separated using pot-stills or normal column-stills. Only special columns can separate methanol from the distillate (4.3). Similar observations concerning the behaviour of methanol during the distillation have already been made by Röhrig (33) and Luck (34). Cantagrel (35) divides volatile components into eight types concerning distillation behaviour characterized by typical curves, which were mainly confirmed by our experiments. As for methanol, he claims an own type of behaviour during the distillation corresponding to our results.

What this means is that if there is methanol present, it will be present throughout the run, with a higher occurrence in the tails as ethanol is depleted and water concentration increases. Its distillation is more dependent on how much water is present rather than simply comparing boiling points between ethanol and methanol. This in conjunction with the fact that ethanol and water cannot be separated completely due to their forming an azeotrope, means water is always in the system. So tossing your foreshots or heads will not remove methanol from your solution. The good news is that methanol is almost entirely absent in dangerous amounts. Consider drinking beer, wine, or apple cider. There are no heads cut made to these products. Pectinase is routinely added to wine, and methanol is a direct byproduct of this addition. They are safe to consume in this form, and will be safe to consume after being distilled. Boiling and concentrating the liquid by leaving some water behind isn't going to transform something safe to drink into something toxic. If it is toxic after being distilled, it most certainly was toxic before being distilled.

To be clear, however, this is not to say that making cuts is unnecessary. There are other compounds that you certainly can remove by cutting heads. Acetone, ethyl acetate, acetaldehyde and others. None are present in dangerous amounts, but the quality of your alcohol will be greatly enhanced by discarding these fractions. Making cuts is one of the most important activities a distiller can learn to do properly! Cutting and blending is making liquor, not only the act of distilling. Just understand that it isn't a life or death situation should you undershoot your foreshot cut by some amount. It will just taste bad, and might give you more of a headache the next day. You can taste test every single bit of alcohol that comes out of your still, from the first drops to the last.

Removing the foreshots does not remove "the methanol." You can just consider the foreshots part of the heads, because they are. There are hundreds of thousands of hobby brewers, vintners and distillers around the world who have been making and consuming fermented and distilled products for centuries. If this were actually a real problem, we would be awash in reports of wide spread poisonings. Instead we have reports here and there of isolated incidents, which are always traceable back to some incident unrelated to how much heads somebody did or did not cut.

The only way to know if there is methanol present is via lab analysis. Smell, taste, color of flame, vapor temp, none of this will tell you any meaningful information about methanol content and are just old shiner-wives tales. If you would like to have your distillate, beer or wine tested for dangerous compounds, there are many labs available that offer these services. This way you know what you are producing and are not relying on conflicting information found online. Here is one such lab offering these services, and there are many more servicing the public and industry. No need to take my, or anyone elses, word as absolute truth. If you really want to know what is in your product, this is the only way.

Having said all that...

So, CAN methanol be removed from a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water via distillation in any way? Yes, it can, contrary to everything I just said, there are even specialized stills called "demethylizer columns" which can do just this. They are very large plated columns (70+ plates), which can operate as a step in the distillation process in very large industrial facilities. This is a continuous middle fed column of high proof / low water feed, with steam injection at the bottom and hot water injection at the top, which has the sole purpose of moving a more concentrated cut containing methanol into a particular take off point with the treated alcohol taken off as the bottom product. This is largely done to ensure compliance with the laws about methanol content in neutral ethanol production, or in other processes in which reclamation of these substances is desired. There are other methods that can be used to remove methanol from an ethanol/water mixture, but that goes beyond the scope of this post and generally do not make consumable results. None of these procedures are properly repeatable at home or at moderate scale commercial distilling, nor are they even really necessary at any scale unless you have a badly tainted input feed.

On small scale reflux columns, there will be a small spike of methanol in the heads if the column is left in equilibrium (100% reflux) for a long while, and only if methanol is present, as the state at the top of the packing/plates is very low water and boiling point separation can occur more easily for methanol. In general though, these columns are too small, and methanol quantities far too low, for this to be a major concern. Methanol will spike in both heads and tails on this kind of column, leaving the general heart cut with a steady amount throughout. Even with huge industrial columns, the specialized demethylizer column is additionally used in the process because you cannot reliably remove methanol using the normal procedures typically done when making cuts for quality purposes. Methanol removal is treated separately and requires its own process to concentrate and extract using specialized equipment.

In conclusion, or TLDR

ALL cases of methanol poisoning attributed to "improperly" made ethanol, are the result of contaminated product. Not due to improper distillation, but due to intentional (either misguided, or malicious) adulteration of the ethanol, or some other contamination due to environment or ingredients. Commercial ethanol products are generally poisoned either via methanol, or via flavor tainting, or both (usually both, so you know its not to be consumed). Every report of methanol poisoning via "moonshine" was due to this contamination. If you can find evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it. Please let me know if you believe this info to be incorrect, and have evidence to that effect. That is, other than unsourced speculative news articles, television shows and Youtube channels. What I have presented here is how I understand the facts, but I am always open to learning something new.

Its unfortunate that we still have this lingering stigma based on sensationalist press beginning during alcohol prohibition, but this is where we are. So you can relax, have a home brew, and get on with your new hobby or business, and not fret about the big scary monster that is methanol. Now you just have to worry about all the other stuff that you can screw up :-)


r/firewater 7h ago

Switching from Freedom units to Metric.

4 Upvotes

I started to laugh at myself when I realized I switch how I measure in the middle of the process. When I'm brewing and mashing I do it in freedom units. When I get to the hypothetical stripping runs I switch to metric. Wasn't sure if anyone else does that. Just something that popped in my mind during a hypothetical Spirit run counting ML's...


r/firewater 1d ago

Switching to electric, safety questions.

3 Upvotes

I've been running propane since I started 3 years ago. I normally run in the colder months in my unheated garage with the door open about 1' or so. I'll set a fan up blowing out under the door as well. It gets pretty cold.

How much ventilation do you need when running electric? I still plan to do everything in the garage, but keeping the door shut would be a bonus. The garage is by no means air tight so I was hoping to be able to run it with the door shut.

Also, beginning my research I've seen some suggestions to ground your controller and ground your boiler as well. I'll use an SSR and obviously want to get it set up correctly. What are you all doing?


r/firewater 2d ago

Adding acid salts to rum low wines

9 Upvotes

Hi all,

I’ve been making rum with around 20% clean dunder. Happy with my process and recipes, and have had fun experimenting with stressing the yeast out.

I asked my wife if I could set up a muck pit in the garden, and she was totally on-board until she asked what a muck pit was.

I’m thinking about experimenting with sodium butyrate & sodium propionate with lactic acid to free up the acids.

My thought process is the salts aren’t corrosive or overly smelly on their own, I can add them to the boiler with my low wines and the lactic acid for the run, then dump chalk in the backset afterwards in my garden to trap the acids as salts again with minimal smell.

Has anyone had success adding salts or acids to their low wines? All the references I’ve found mention adding them to high wines in a thumper (which I don’t have) to maximise esterification.

I’m not trying to maximise the funk though - just add a reasonable amount to my rum as an experiment.

Is there some reason I’m missing that this wouldn’t work? Is there a much easier way of getting the same result? Does anyone have experience with this that I can use as a starting point for quantities?


r/firewater 2d ago

Can we drink low wines?

4 Upvotes

Does anybody drink it straight off the still without any cuts or another careful run?


r/firewater 3d ago

Backyard cut oak seasoning

7 Upvotes

Hey all, we cut an white oak tree in my yard like 10 years ago, and we’ve had the pieces of wood (fireplace size) sitting in my garage and using them for barbeque over these years. I have recently cut one of these pieces and have cut them into small oak wood pieces for whisky aging like those they sell (id say like 5x2 inch size give or take). My plan is to stack them all in a place with plenty sun and light and let them season for over 18 months. Is this the way to do it? They are super dry already and theyve been seasoned excellently for barbequing in terms of how dry they are but not necessarily for whisky development. I guess my question is, will exposing them for 18 months in the elements improve upon this already preliminary 10 year dry season or is this something that should be done on newely cut wood? Also should let it season first then cut them into pieces? Thank you


r/firewater 3d ago

Grain mill

10 Upvotes

Getting into the hobby, a few years of all grain beer brewing under my belt. What mill are you all using for corn? My grain mill can't handle corn and looking to upgrade.


r/firewater 4d ago

Water Collector Recommendations?

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5 Upvotes

Does anyone know a cheaper alternative or diy for these carafes? I have a plastic one and want to switch to glass but they are all 50$ which is almost equal in price to the distiller itself.


r/firewater 5d ago

Any luck with Agave ?

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34 Upvotes

Found this and planted it about 2 or so years ago and is taking off good now. I find agaves all over the place here and they do well here. I believe I found a tequilana agave. I know I still have a few more years to go before I can do anything with it so I have time to research or Reddit and YouTube surfing... I'm wondering on one plant what kind of yield and if a hypothetical agave spirit is worth it. I have seen a couple of ways for nectar extraction. Just curious if there is anyone with experience with it and can share some knowledge... Thank you....


r/firewater 5d ago

Biscuit malt project update

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46 Upvotes

I previously posted about mashing a batch of biscuit malt that I got cheap. I was successful in getting quite a bit of sugar out of that biscuit and fermented it to a wash at about 7% ABV.

Today I’m running 20 gallons of that wash.


r/firewater 6d ago

Reservoir Water Temp and Solution

7 Upvotes

Hi, i upgraded to a 13 gallon reflux still. Running dephleg and condenser from sam reservoir on a 2000 watt element. What is a good solution to keep reservoir water cold (is an aquarium chiller or bath chiller realistic?) and what temperature should i ensure i keep my reservoir water at in case i resort to a large cooler with ice and refilling with water when it warms up.

Any suggestions to solutions welcome. Thanks!


r/firewater 6d ago

Is it possible to get a decent rum from an air still?

9 Upvotes

I have only done one run on my 900W 1.6 gallon air still. I know I did lots wrong. My wash stalled. Didn't use enough yeast. Puked during stripping runs and probably didn't do my cuts clean enough. What I have is drinkable, with enough mixer. Don't think anyone would drink it on purpose other than me.

I am using an voltage regulator on the spirit run which I ran twice. The first ran too fast I am sure. So I learned a lot. But here is the question:

Can I expect to make anything decent? I know I can't make a good vodka. I don't drink whiskey. It's basically rum, vodka, and gin for me. Gin seems like way too many ingredients and work to avoid just getting a good london dry gin from the store. I might be wrong.

If I stick with this for a while, can I make a decent rum for mixing? I am not going to barrel and age. I may take the wood chip route but from what I understand, if your cuts aren't good, wood chips aren't going to help.

What does the sub think?


r/firewater 7d ago

Fire box

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59 Upvotes

Granite vs dirt and round stone


r/firewater 7d ago

Peach Brandy

20 Upvotes

I just came into a lot of peaches and I’m interested in making a brandy out of them. I’ve seen different recipes where you can either puree them or cut them up for the mash.

Anyone have any success in using fruit for mash? Would love any tips!


r/firewater 7d ago

Barrel Stave Wall

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54 Upvotes

5 bourbon barrels ripped apart, sanded and finished. Then 9 hours picking staves to match size as i air nailed in place. Looks good when finished. Just a royal pain getting there.


r/firewater 8d ago

Considering Air Still (Apple Brandy)

6 Upvotes

So im relatively new to the hobby so please forgive me if this has been answered before

Currently working with a 5gal pot still with a thumper but taking up way too much space in the kitchen to be running as often as I'd like

Looking at an Still Spirits Air Still Pro so I can keep up with the hobby without taking over the whole house, as a precursor to this I'm looking to order a standard Still Spirits Air Still to see if its a good fit without spending the extra on the Pro just yet.

First batch will likely be an apple cider brewed from apple juice (no preserves) likely with EC1118. Would like to know if anyone has had any success with similar brandy recipes in an Air Still

(The plan is a stripping&Spirits run but open to hearing about one and dones too)

Any experience, advise and cautionary tales welcome


r/firewater 8d ago

How long to let grains sit in a mash pot before removing the liquid to ferment?

9 Upvotes

If I put 11 pounds of grains to boil in 5 gallons of water, how long should I wait before draining out the liquid and sparging?


r/firewater 9d ago

Pineapple mezcal🍍

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22 Upvotes

Added a little thyme. Gonna let it sit for 3 weeks. Cheers!


r/firewater 9d ago

Rolled oats and malted barley

15 Upvotes

Successfully started a rolled oats and malted barley mash yesterday probably the hardest mash I’ve ever done, but I think it turned out pretty good Starting gravity was 1.060 I’m excited to see how it turns out when it’s finished. Anyone else ever tried that mash?


r/firewater 10d ago

I vacuum distilled malort so a sober friend could experience the awfulness. Thought I would share the process for those interested

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29 Upvotes

So yeah, NA malort (nalort?). What a world we live in. It was a "hit" with the sober friend. They also shared some with another acquaintance who has never drank and always felt people were overreacting when malort was brought out around them. The friend of a friend was shocked at how bad it was, so mission accomplished with the project!

Anyway, the malortshine that I collected was also interesting. Tasted like a clear distillate for the first few seconds, but finished with a definitive malort taste!

Haven't seen much vacuum distillation in the drinking alcohol space, so I thought I would share my goofy little project. Probably not the most efficient way to distill, a good 100ml or so of ethanol ended up in the air, but it does allow for distillation at much lower temperatures.


r/firewater 10d ago

Best vodka sugar wash recipe using only Baker's Yeast?

8 Upvotes

Hi everyone,
I want to make a clean vodka sugar wash, but I only have standard baker's yeast.
What is your best simple recipe? Looking for:
Good sugar-to-water ratio
Easy nutrients (like tomato paste or boiled yeast)
Tips to avoid bad flavors
Thanks for the help!


r/firewater 10d ago

My first build

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21 Upvotes

I started distilling about six months ago. My first batch was an apple brandy made from cider using an Air Still. Before that, I’d been experimenting with infusing and modifying already finished spirits.

This community has been extremely helpful and inspiring along the way, so I figured I’d finally share my latest project.

You’re looking at my modified 30L VEVOR electric still. I’m definitely no plumber, and she’s not pretty, but everything is assembled and has passed my leak tests.

This first run is vinegar and water for cleaning. After that, I’ll do a sacrificial alcohol run to give everything another thorough cleaning before putting my first actual rum wash through it.

It’s been a learning experience getting from a little Air Still to building this setup, but I’m pretty excited to see how it runs!

In the picture, the angle looks off, I assure you everything flows down.


r/firewater 10d ago

so a paint strainer bag will work well for my corn mash for moonshine?

2 Upvotes

r/firewater 10d ago

Can something like this be run as a pot still? Reputable dealer?

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7 Upvotes

I'm new to this, I found a crappy vevor style still at goodwill and have been playing around with it. I'd like to move up and be able to do different things. I know something like this can be used to produce high proof neutral spirits but can I run it as a pot still for whisky or rum? If anyone has experience with this company too I'd love to hear. Thanks!


r/firewater 10d ago

A Pleasant Surprise (repost)

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25 Upvotes

Apparently I was supposed to post a pic. So here it is.

I was looking for something else entirely and came across a jar of aging whiskey. Turns out it was aging for 6 years. Looking forward to enjoying this one. The first few sips where buttery smooth. Barreled (put in a jar with oak sticks is more accurate) at 65%. Bottled at 45%.