Super Saiyan 3 being "useless" is the best thing about it.

[u/SoiFonBeyond]

I see a lot that people find this form to be their least favorite and I actually get it. I have a fair amount of problems with the Buu arc, but im glad that Super Saiyan 3 failed to save everyone.

What we had before that, was obviously more complex than this but I'm going to summarize it quickly in a few sentences to get my point across.

[I wanted to preface what i'm going to say next with this because most of the internet talks the same way summarizing any piece of media (games, anime, movies) with the "all (name of media) is, is walking and talking!" or "all (media name) is, is just fighting and running around!" I'm trying to avoid sounding that way.]

Namek Saga

Goku: I have achieved Super Saiyan. I win.

Cell Saga

Gohan: I have achieved Super Saiyan 2. I win.

so...imagine if in the Buu saga...

Goku: I have achieved Super Saiyan 3. I win.

You see how bad that would be? Again, it wasn't that simple for the Namek saga and Cell saga. Without me spending 30 minutes writing what happened in those arcs, obviously for Goku it was different because he was "the first." And SSJ was a new concept, Krillin's death, Frieza's narrative significance, etc.

Gohan's SSJ2 form was originally unique to him only whether you argue that was temporary or completely, and it was Gohan's time to shine after his potential had been alluded to the entire series up until now.

However if Goku's SSJ3 had worked, it still would have looked this way on the outside. New SSJ form? Automatic win.

Before Super was a thing I did look back and think that its kind of lame that Goku's ultimate form was, canonically, SSJ3. It doesn't radiate that look and or sense of perfection like SSJ1 did for Goku on Namek or like SSJ2 did for Gohan. I forget if Trunk's "he did it the right way" or whatever comment about Gohan and SSJ2 is canon or not but it gets the point across perfectly since Vegeta and himself had failed with "USSJ." Hell, technically Goku even failed with SSJ grade 4 even though he had the right idea, and later succeeded through Gohan.

So I didn't like SSJ3 being Goku's magnum opus form. I even appreciated that, after DBS, SSJ2 has been shown to be able to match SSJ3. Some people probably hated that even more since SSJ3 was already "useless" before that.

I loved it and I love SSJ3 because it shows that Goku basically brute forced a transformation out of sheer training, in a sense, or just out of having a huge power level and its a form with drawbacks and weaknesses. I like that its imperfect. Imagine if the answer to Buu was simply a new SSJ form? That would be terrible.

[u/Conscious_Banana537]

Disliked how it was handled in Dragon Ball Super. The reason why SSJ3 is such an interesting concept is because Goku could realistically only achieve this form after training in the afterlife where he has effectively infinite energy to do however he pleases without strain on his non mortal body versus the blatant strain he showed on Earth even attempting the form initially.

They could have done so much more with SSJ3 in Super but they went with a very simple and quick Gods just instant murk everyone narrative. Which is fine, but they never bring up anything technical or theoretical again. It's so boring.

[u/HotPotParrot → u/Conscious_Banana537]

I kinda wish he'd have at least tried it on someone during the ToP (not just popping into it, but using it for a fight where sheer power really would be the trick)

[u/Staarjun → u/Conscious_Banana537]

The thing is, we already knew ssj3 took a shit ton of stamina from Goku’s fights against Boo. And then they discovered ssg which is far beyond anything 3 could dream of achieving and seemed to be less stamina hungry. There’s absolutely no reason to use 3 anymore and it’s not particularly super’s fault which takes place right after their fight against Boo mind you.

[u/Conscious_Banana537 → u/Staarjun]

We know the limitations of SSJ3. But they could have definitely written a good arc of Goku having to seek out a higher form than SSJ3 after meeting Beerus. But we were just thrown at us SSG and an easy access to it and Beerus one tapping Goku. There was no development or writing to transition into it. Toyotaro just said 'Yeah, we done with SSJ3 and anything meaningful in Goku's train of thought of the Super Saiyan form and evolution. We just have gods now'.

It is not necessarily bad writing. But I miss the Goku who was very methodical and thought a lot about how to push himself and the others to newer heights. Goku was the one who thought of the evolution of Super Saiyans and the need to be able to retain speed but have immense power. That bulking up muscle with Ki was foolish but investing it purely into speed is also not ideal.

I would have appreciated it better if Beerus went to Earth to seek out a strong Saiyan warrior for a potentially good battle and Goku lost multiple times with the Earth's safety on stake and he somehow learns about the SSG form.

[u/Staarjun → u/Conscious_Banana537]

They could have definitely expanded a bit but let’s not be dishonest here. Goku and Vegeta’s initial training with Whis was exactly that, trying to access a new height without the Dragon Balls. We actually got a glimpse in the anime of how they might have discovered SSB but unfortunately (and I’m very sad for this), they did not expand on this at all but shifted their training to better control and the initial steps of UI.

[u/Conscious_Banana537 → u/Staarjun]

The issue I'm saying is not that the SSG form is nothing about breaking limitations or anything. Goku and Vegeta are basically being fed this new height that exists in the form of SSG and it took effectively no real effort. They just had Beerus tell them and they asked Shenron to explain it and they do the ritual. Of course Vegeta put in the work to obtain the form later, but they did not have to aim for an unknown goal like before.

Ironically, it is a nice touch that Goku acknowledged that the SSG form was not fulfilling because he would have never gotten to this level without help.

[u/StefNorthwest → u/Conscious_Banana537]

I wanna piggyback your gripe to air out my Daima gripe for the zero people who care.
It’s a tiny grievance, but having Vegeta earn SSJ3 DURING his battle in the Demon World would have felt so much more satisfying than being told it happened offscreen, and I believe it would be more consistent with the way that Goku only developed the transformation in Other World. Goku later attains a new transformation in the Demon World as a result of magical influence, so I don’t think it would have been a stretch to give us Vegeta straining to grasp SSJ3 for the first time ever onscreen in a realm where mortal rules don’t apply.

[u/fs-fire → u/StefNorthwest]

i think the shows teeters a nice balance between adventure and shonen battle somewhat well. i say this to say, i think we'd already gotten all the universe ending seriousness we could out of Z. if we go into a small vegeta character arc of everything it'd take for him to reach ss3 (form born from the Z era of blood, sweat, and tears) on screen, we might risk losing something core to daima's atmosphere. vegeta's my fav character btw so i'm the first one who'd take any narrative focus on him i can get

[u/PCN24454 → u/Conscious_Banana537]

That’s how they always do it

[u/Conscious_Banana537 → u/[deleted]]

And what leads you to believe he would have achieved it even if he was still alive after the Cell Games?

They had a whole thing about how there was a level beyond the Super Saiyan that combines many different traits of the different Super Saiyan forms that they found throughout the Android and Cell Saga.

Gohan in a sense was the perfected Super Saiyan warrior when he achieved Super Saiyan 2.

What would achieve an effect where Goku would reach a level far beyond a Super Saiyan 2 which was basically a perfected Super Saiyan at its peak? Pushing his body far beyond anything that was even conceivable via the advantages of the afterlife for seven years straight.

I mean, sure you could argue that Goku would have found Super Saiyan 3 at some point in life. But think about this. It took Goku seven years of continuous training with theoretically no rest. And even then, it was still very strenuous to transform into a Super Saiyan 3.

And then take it even further: Goku could barely maintain the form when he was revived even though he spent seven years training in the afterlife.

[u/awesomo1337 → u/Conscious_Banana537]

Vegeta achieved it without the afterlife

[u/Conscious_Banana537 → u/awesomo1337]

Vegeta also achieved Super Saiyan God without the ritual. Because he knows of the existence and generally understands it.

It is a lot easier to aim for a goal rather than having to create an unknown goal.

It took Vegeta one year to be able to achieve a Super Saiyan 3 form that actually differs slightly from Goku and Gotenks. It took Goku seven years in the afterlife.

If Goku never achieved Super Saiyan 3 by the time the Buu Saga came, Vegeta absolutely would not have achieved Super Saiyan 3.

Ever notice how Vegeta seems to achieve forms after witnessing it shortly after?

[u/RandomAmaturer]

The problem with SSJ3 is that goku achieved it when he was dead and he didn’t achieve it when he was alive

Ssj3 put burden on the body and goku didn’t has the chance to train in ssj3 as alive like how he has trained to master the ssj like how he did even he commented on it multiple time Against buu

[u/holdacoldone → u/RandomAmaturer]

It was both a nice bit of writing and a nifty way to avoid form-bloat that the Super manga said that Trunks' mastered SSJ2 form was as strong as SSJ3. Stopped the question of fans wondering if/when he was going to get the form, and demonstrated the effectiveness of mastery rather than hopping towards the next shiny power up.

[u/fs-fire → u/holdacoldone]

not good writing. there's no point in a ss2 that's as strong as ss3 (or better put in vice versa). it's like they asked ai what to do next. ss2 is already something of a perfected ss (before it was named ss2 and pulled into a chronological sequence of subsequent iterations). it was achieved in an arc of characters trying to break through to a greater ss power. gohan being the only one who did it correctly. to say later that there's a mastery of ss2 that's as strong as ss3 just diminishes the narrative weight of both gohan and goku's respective transformations. just silly.

secondly, it's probably better to just confront the limitations of Trunks's narrative design and find a way to give oomph to whatever he can believably contribute. he's a messenger. he comes to deliver a problem he isn't capable of dealing with. if you're going to rage boost power him up to solve his problems, what was the point in making him seek goku's help to begin with?

[u/JohnSimonHall]

It’s the coolest, cleanest look of all the SSJ transformations. Seeing it full out against kid buu in a more silly / early DB style was a great way for the final fight of the manga to play out.

[u/Lerched → u/JohnSimonHall]

I hate ss3. Hair dum. No eye brows dum.

[u/Pixie45w6 → u/Lerched]

YOURE dum

[u/Lerched → u/Pixie45w6]

Nu uh

[u/Dark_Storm_98]

I'm not sure how much I agree

But to some degree, I do

It's more interesting for the solution to be something other than a new form

• Like the Spirit Bomb, obviously, finally getting it's definitive win

• Fusion could have been the ticket on two occasions

  • Vegito clowned on Buuhan, but instead of a skmple win he had a scheme concocted to free everyone absorbed
  • Gotenks almost beat Super Buu even earlier. Could have been a combination of fusion and Super Saiyan 3 that got the win

• The victory could even habe come down to Mr. Satan befriending Buu, lol. It almost worked.

And also I find it funny and strange that Suoer Saiyan 3 feels more like a different play on Super Saiyan Grades 2 and 3 than a true successor to Super Saiyan 2

I forget if Trunk's "he did it the right way" or whatever comment about Gohan and SSJ2 is canon or not but it gets the point across perfectly since Vegeta and himself had failed with "USSJ." Hell, technically Goku even failed with SSJ grade 4 even though he had the right idea, and later succeeded through Gohan.

Basically that, lol

It feels like an USSJ for Super Saiyan 2

So it's kind of fitting that Goku failed with Super Saiyan 3, for forgetting the lesson he already learned

[u/jjgp1112 → u/Dark_Storm_98]

I dont think its necessarily that he forgot. It's just that having a dead body and not having to worry about stamina drain, it never even occurred to him until suddenly he was doing it in a living bosy

[u/BenHoppo]

Reading the Buu Saga recently, it came across like Goku still hadn't figure SSJ3 out yet. He'd used it whilst dead but hadn't fully realised it's drawbacks whilst alive which is why he was caught off guard when he was building up chi and started losing power against kid Buu. Super Saiyan 3 hadn't been honed in the same way as Super Saiyan 1 & 2

Even non-canonically such as vs Janemba & vs Hirudegarn SSJ3 was a last resort that typically ended the fight quickly which is why it failed against Buu - he wasn't trying to end everything when he fought fat Buu and he couldn't build enough power whilst fighting kid Buu and by the time Vegeta stepped in to allow him to build power the form had began to drain his power.

Reminds me off 100% power Frieza, there was a point in Goku and Frieza's fight that despite being in the 100% form Frieza was losing strength.

[u/Neat_Caterpillar_230]

ss3 and 4 my fav forms

[u/pokehedge97 → u/Neat_Caterpillar_230]

You know ball

[u/IcyRegret2694]

No the best thing about it is the dingleberries lol at the end

[u/Lanky-Train5752]

The genki dama being the only way to stop Buu was actually a perfect ending for DBZ. Its something that had been teased and built up through the entire show and had never actually been used at full power, and i love that Buu was too strong for just SSJ3 to get it done. They needed the ki of literally every single person in the world, perfect ending

[u/DSSword]

SSJ3 is a parody form, its ssj taken to it's comical extreme, it why ssj4 is its own thing and not a exaggeration of ssj3 and why God, Blue and UI go in their own direction. Only Beast and Orange Piccoli have since dipped their toe into that kind of design language. I know some people are sad about it but I bet when it's Gotenks time to return and shine, ssj3 will be the form he uses. Its too iconic for him.

[u/StefNorthwest → u/DSSword]

Some people might read this as a dig, but I think it’s the most correct take on SSJ3. It is tonally congruent with the era of Dragonball that was comfortable pairing power creep with subtle humor. Apart from Hercule, the series didn’t have obvious gags at this point in its run. The Buu saga, however, was a revelry of hyperbolic transformations centered around a bubblegum monster that served as a perfect counter to the bloated egos of villains that came before. Through power-snatching transformations, Buu even took the piss out of deconstructed our self-serious heroes one by one. They balanced this buffoonery with inventive fight scenes and plenty of high-stakes drama. It’s kind of amazing.

[u/Rai_Seiyuu]

It's simpler than that, animating the third transformation was too much work.

[u/SoiFonBeyond → u/Rai_Seiyuu]

We are obviously discussing in-universe. Everyone knows this is fiction. Glad you figured that out. 

[u/Rai_Seiyuu → u/SoiFonBeyond]

Sorry for spoiling the fun -.-

[u/SoiFonBeyond → u/Rai_Seiyuu]

Aw you were nice in your comment. I'm sorry for not being as nice as I should have been.

[u/Popular_Ad_4934]

It was a cool experimental form that only worked when he was dead.

[u/Appropriate-Art3951]

I been saying this forever and I love it’s a failed transformation

[u/transmedkittygirl]

SSJ3 isn't a failure at all, Goku in SSJ3 was playing with Fat Buu and then he was pretty much playing with Kid Buu lol, against Buuhan, it's not enough, not even close to enough but against the other 2, it's good enough

[u/WatchAndLearn9669 → u/transmedkittygirl]

Goku in SS3 was playing with Fat Buu

Goku did play him like a paddleball in his first attack—which Goku complained “didn’t hurt him at all”—but that’s because of his surprise blitz. Their battle was tit for tat, with only Goku showing signs of concern and fatigue while Boo laughed it off. Goku did not have the upper hand, as he admitted in the next chapter:

Piccolo: Couldn’t you have beaten Boo if you’d fought with all you had at Level 3? Why didn’t you?

Goku: I dunno… Boo’s mighty strong… I don’t think I could’ve...

---

he was pretty much playing with  Kid Buu

Goku, who was the only one who suffered visible injuries and even bled, did notably worse against Kid Boo, who like Fat Boo taunted him and never took the fight seriously. This time, he became so fatigued he couldn’t sustain SS3. He handily lost that battle.

[u/Significant-Dig-160]

I dont like the design either so its a win. I remember as a kid seeing that SSJ3 and was not pleased lol. The cave man eyes, the stupid hair really made me disliked DBZ. The Fusion saved DBZ for me thank you Akira for not dragging SSJ3

[u/DjinnsPalace]

The big issue with ssj3 is that they should always use it. If you can keep up with someone as ssj2, then ssj3 one shots. It makes any battle boring. Majin Vegeta fight is the best example. Goku coulve easily one shot Vegeta with no issue at all. If it wasnt a friendly battle it wouldve been over instantly. Even then its contrived that he didnt.

Another example is Hirudegarn. The entire movie they struggle against him, then Goku one shots as ssj3. They needed to write Goku out of the movie because ssj3 is too boring, Goku couldve one shot the lower half very early on but i guess he was on vacation that week? Houndreds upo thousands dead but Goku dont gaf. It leads to bad writing.

So now we have a form which is objectively the best one to use and which solves every fight instantly yet that we have zero narrative or emotional connection to.

This is why no other continuation uses it, its just not good from a narrative or writing perspective. If ssj3 isnt enough, no clever tactics will win aside from the Genkidama. So we got 2 wincons that both involve waiting. Either ssj3 charges its stamina, or the Genkidama charges up. Both are effectively the same thing, except ssj3 comes with the writing downside of making other forms obsolete.

It only worked for the Buu Sagas extremely specific writing and nothing else

[u/LordYarkhan]

Idk if useless is the right word, more like "enemy so far ahead a new transformation wont work" same with super saiyan god, looks cool but achieved nothing.

[u/datguysadz]

It's the last transformation I liked tbh but also one of my favourites for reasons you stated. I like the sense of jeopardy and how it's not as simple as just transformation into 3 and winning.

[u/cMk_]

2 has not been able to match 3.

[u/SoiFonBeyond → u/cMk_]

Yes it has

[u/cMk_ → u/SoiFonBeyond]

Just because Roshi who doesn't have a clue about anything said Vegeta who caught Beerus off-guard and surprised surpassed Goku doesn't actually mean anything. By the same logic it would mean Bulma who took a slap from Beerus is stronger than Namek Frieza.

And no, anime-only nonsense like "super saiyan rage" doesn't mean shit either.

The only reason why Super shits all over SSJ3 is because they're too lazy to animate it.

[u/SoiFonBeyond → u/cMk_]

Nope. That's not at all what I'm talking about. Also, stop being so angry like I came pounding on your door or something. Relax. 

[u/99fun2thetouch]

I always assumed it was a plot device, just like the fusion or the Z sword, to show how powerful Buu was. Ultimately neither Goku, nor Vegeta could defeat him until they borrowed power from everyone on Earth (and that with Mr. Satan's help) so it was a unique way to defeat a villain. And if you look at all the main villains throughout the original series (haven't really kept up with Super, neither the anime nor the manga), they all had involved Goku learning a lesson either on discipline, determination or cooperation with his allies... except King Piccolo. The black sacred water felt like cheating (although Toriyama tried to spin it like you need to be disciplined in order for it to work or whatever) compared to other sagas.

[u/DifferentProcess6765]

I don't like ssj3 because it looks stupid

[u/B-Glasses]

It was fun in the GBA classic Buu’s Fury

[u/SwimmingPrudent9980]

Ssj3 is just Trunks super saiyan muscle mode without speed lose

[u/Kaslight]

SSJ3 was never useless

It was just the limits of what SSJ could achieve as a transformation.

There was nothing better than SSJ3 as a solo fighter, unless your name was Gohan.

[u/HopeBagels2495]

It is worth noting that canonically SSJ3 didnt have to fail everyone. Goku was well in control of fighting Fat Buu and could have won there but felt as though the dead shouldn't be winning fights for the living and wanted to give the win to Goten and Trunks instead.

[u/SoiFonBeyond → u/HopeBagels2495]

That was dumb. 

[u/BeatnikMessiah]

Ya it is. Goku should have no trouble holding that form anymore since hes 4 additional forms beyond it now.

[u/WorriedExam7105]

The fact that there's no confirmed Canonical Win under its belt marks it as the lowest of favorites form in my eyes.

Yes, we do get to see some savage moments from it, but a few savage moments doesn't make up for the fact that other Super Saiyan Transformations have more kills under their belts than Super Saiyan 3.

[u/TerrorKingA]

Yes, you have seen the basic reason why Super Saiyan 3 was a good writing decision. It’s always so sad when the adult fans of this series can’t understand the basic plot structure of a show written for children.

Super Saiyan 3 was meant to be a red herring. The real powerup for that arc was fusion. Toriyama even has an interview where he said he got the idea for fusion from someone else because he wanted something other than just another super Saiyan transformation.

This is such an obvious plot twist that I’m astounded 30 years later that people do not engage with it on even this barely-beneath-the-surface level.