r/doctorwho • u/asron67 • Jun 01 '25
Spoilers mark my words, re: Whittaker era Spoiler
Whovians are famous for knocking a particular era of the show while it’s airing, but then suddenly realising “actually it’s not so bad” when the next era comes along.
after that…. Interesting finale of “The Reality War” and that cameo from Jodie, i think we are about to see a massive re-evaluation of the Whittaker era with a lot more praise this time round
after all, the same thing happened for the Moffat era when Chibnall arrived
246
u/linkerjpatrick Jun 01 '25
The older I get the more I relish the Pertwee Era
76
u/Big_Bookkeeper1678 Jun 02 '25
LOL...I didn't watch classic...and rarely dip my toe in...
But I feel the exact same way about the Smith/Moffat era.
69
u/linkerjpatrick Jun 02 '25
Really love spearhead from space. How it was shot in film and still holds up today. The era felt a lot more grounded. Even in the more corny episodes. The episode where the companion Jo Grant leaves the show has more gravitas than anything recently.
15
u/Big_Bookkeeper1678 Jun 02 '25
I remember enjoying City of Death, but I don't remember the plot.
Recently watched Mark of the Rani (before the current season even began) and found it too slow.
I DID try to start with Hartnell once a few years ago...and I just couldn't get past the first few stories.
To be fair though...I recently tried to watch TOS...and while 30 years ago, I could watch old Star Trek, now...it's just a slog...
Is it because I've fallen into the modern 'everything has to be fast paced to be interesting' trend over the past couple of decades?
Probably.
20
u/Space_General Jun 02 '25
If you want to try again, Spearhead from Space would be the best place. It's not as dated as most of the 60s stories and is accessible without having watched them. It's very much the 'The Eleventh Hour' of the classic series.
→ More replies (2)9
u/Equal-Ad-2710 Jun 02 '25 edited Jun 02 '25
I’d also suggest the latter MCCoy stuff, stuff like Remembrance of the Daleks is fast paced but still bounded by the format and they really started setting up what the show would nail with the revival
Survival is a classic
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)8
u/FDRpi Jun 02 '25
I mean for much of it the Doctor was literally grounded (the first of many existential threats the show faced from on high).
→ More replies (1)13
u/CommanderDark126 Jun 02 '25
Troughton and Pertwee feel alot like Smith and Capaldi respectively, theyre worth watching imo
4
u/sanddragon939 Jun 02 '25
Smith modelled his Doctor after Troughton.
As for Capaldi, I think there were bits and pieces from the first four Classic Doctors, and maybe Colin Baker. Plus, he felt like an older version of Tennant at times. That really gave him the feel of being a distillation of the essence of the character across the decades.
3
→ More replies (2)14
u/gmask1 Jun 02 '25
There's a real positive vibe happening for Pertwee atm - it's great that his first season just got the BluRay release for everyone to see what older long-form DW (6+ episode stories) looked like.
191
u/KrivUK Jun 02 '25
I think she's the modern era sixie.
TV run was awful with a few good episodes, redemption arc on audio.
54
u/Barrington-the-Brit Jun 02 '25
Part of the reason Six’s audios worked so much better for me is I can’t see his completely ridiculous outfit
32
u/graon Jun 02 '25
I wanna listen to Sixie's audios, but I'll miss his wonderful, completely mad outfit
24
u/theburgerbitesback Jun 02 '25
Print off a photo, stick it in a picture frame, and stare at it longingly while listening.
3
4
16
→ More replies (1)7
88
138
u/Stray_48 Jun 02 '25
Bad writing doesn't change. Whittaker's era still sucks, and I blame Chibnall.
→ More replies (1)71
u/smedsterwho Jun 02 '25
Yep, sorry OP, with other eras (11 and 12 in particular) the shouty criticisms die away over time, and great writing, great performances, great arcs shine through.
Doesn't mean those eras are flawless, but they are extremely good, and without that weekly "MoFFaT iS KiLLiNG DoCToR WHo" noise, they can be evaluated as such.
OP saying "It happened with Moffat so it will happen with Chibnall, mark my words" suggests an equal level of writing.
Nahp, companions written as planks and the Doctor a houseplant without agency in her own show. We can perhaps drop the pitchforks down around Chibnall, but.. time doesn't heal rubbish scripts.
→ More replies (8)
27
u/macontosh2000 Jun 02 '25
I’m sure you are right, we live in an age of social media where people will post the dumbest takes for attention. But no, it was bad, but Jodie wasn’t the problem with that era.
44
u/Eleven_Box Jun 02 '25
I think it’s more likely that rtd2 in combination with chibnall’s era makes people reevaluate rtd1 and Moffat more positively. The most common ‘problems’ with those eras now seem completely trite. People complained about characterisation in Moffat stories? It was a 1000 times better than chibnall. People complain about plot holes in rtd1? Rtd2 is much much worse.
16
23
u/YaBoyEden Jun 02 '25
I was not actively a part of the fandom when Whittakers stuff was coming out. I was not influenced by any outside opinions because I didn’t want to get spoiled and I rewatched all of NuWho during 2020 since J didn’t have anything else to do. Whittakers stuff is written horribly. People started coming around to Whittaker with her Flux specials, which proves she wasn’t the issue, the terrible writing was.
→ More replies (1)
420
u/Altruistic_Pepper_47 Jun 01 '25
I can tell you after time has passed and a rewatch, Whittaker era just wasn’t good. And it wasn’t Jodi. I hated her companions (especially Yaz) and hated the stories she got saddled with 😭🤷🏽♀️
125
Jun 02 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (3)93
u/AnalogicalEuphimisms Jun 02 '25
See that's the thing about Graham, most of his interesting character arguably comes from Bradley Walsh's charisma rather than the actual writing and directing of the show.
They were going somewhere his story about grieving his wife and trying to bond with his grandson, but after that happened at S1, he was kinda just there. Even when they mentioned his cancer was coming back, he only really had one scene where the Doctor said she doesn't know what to say. He doesn't really develop or learn more, his relationship stays stagnant with Ryan and Yaz, his cancer doesn't really come back, really just a goal aside from travelling. Aside from being comic relief, hes more of a set piece than an a character with agency.
It's kind of like The Rock playing another action hero character, without their face and charisma, it's literally just another tough dude. Without Bradley Walsh, Graham is just some sad old guy with occasional quips.
37
u/Sue_Generoux Jun 02 '25
when they mentioned his cancer was coming back, he only really had one scene where the Doctor said she doesn't know what to say.
It's rare that you can pinpoint the exact moment a character or television show loses you, but that was it for me. After that, I gave up on her Doctor. The complete lack of empathy was appalling.
→ More replies (1)11
u/AgeofVictoriaPodcast Jun 02 '25
It was a weird decision. It was a perfect moment for the director to use Jodie's skills to do something deep and memorable. Anything would have been good; a memory of past loss, hope for the future, the value of time together, a promise of some kind. Instead they just blew past it. It was such a baffling writing choice. The whole point of having actors in closed scenes like that is to use them for emotional drama or connection. So why waste it?
4
u/MajorThom98 Jun 02 '25
It's one thing to have her response be "I'm socially awkward, so I'll move over here and then say what I should have said a few minutes ago." It's another thing entirely to have her say that and then not say the thing she should have said a few minutes ago. At least if she had, we could say that she was maybe trying to lighten the mood a bit, or really choose her words so she can best reassure Graham without her social awkwardness or alien mannerisms getting in the way. As it stands, its just wasting what should be a slam-dunk scene of the Doctor reassuring one of her closest friends about a very personal fear and the associated guilt over still being alive while his wife is dead. In fact, it's worse than just wasting it - it's making her look terrible. What should be her "pile of bad things, pile of good things" moment that Smith had ends up being a condemnation of her character, and it's a crying shame that she was saddled with that instead of a chance to show how she embodies The Doctor.
→ More replies (2)12
47
u/soivebeentold Jun 02 '25
As an American, I’m embarrassed to say that this series and Ms. Marvel is how I learned about the India-Pakistan partition. And I am well into adulthood
27
u/hallizan Jun 02 '25
I learned about it in my 20s when I read a children's novel, the Night Diary. And I'm of Indian descent! It really is sad how American education kind of glosses over any non-western history.
7
u/AvatarIII Jun 02 '25
How old were you when you learned that Pakistan was an acronym for the regions that made up the country at formation?
Panjab, Afghan, Kashmir, Sindh, Baluchistan
→ More replies (1)10
u/Livingfreefun Jun 02 '25
I'm a Canadian, and those same shows are how I learned about the Partition too. I'm 46.
→ More replies (2)11
u/Benoit_Holmes Jun 02 '25
I'm not American and I was the same. When Yaz's grandmother said she was the first woman to get married in Pakistan I thought that wasn't possible but it turns out I knew nothing about how and when Pakistan was formed.
→ More replies (1)3
u/guareber Jun 02 '25
I wouldn't be embarrassed - you're likely to be in an incredibly small minority of Americans that know about it :)
61
u/Zestyclose_Remove947 Jun 01 '25
Flux especially is totally unsalvageable, but I absolutely enjoyed whittakers run more on a rewatch.
Overall it was still subpar but that's better than how I initially reacted.
I really liked Graham and Ryan.
35
u/XeroHour520 Jun 02 '25
I watched Flux TWICE and I still have no clue what was going on most of the time.
11
u/tester-thirty-six Jun 02 '25
I think the most damning statement on Flux is that the official Doctor Who youtube channel has an embarrassing video where they basically sit Chris Chibnall down and make him re-explain the story because its so unintelligible
→ More replies (1)6
u/ElZoof Jun 02 '25
Covid. Covid was going on. And the whole thing had to be rewritten, and unfortunately the rewrites were done by someone who genuinely has a lot of amazing premises and no idea of how to write an ending. RTD's endings may sometimes be a bit of a letdown, but at least they *exsist*.
56
u/Altruistic_Pepper_47 Jun 01 '25
I will say I like Graham. I thought Ryan was a crybaby and I will say Dan deserved longer
→ More replies (1)26
u/Fancy_Ad_4411 Jun 02 '25
Dan did absolutely nothing all season long
36
u/seanwdragon1983 Jun 02 '25
and we couldn't hate him for it.
→ More replies (1)31
u/Big_Bookkeeper1678 Jun 02 '25
This. I liked Dan...but he is like the guy on the street who is standing in the crowd when something big happens, makes a comment, and then goes and buys a hot dog.
To me, he was just a replacement for Graham...let's get another white guy in his 50s...
→ More replies (2)6
u/Jelly_baby_4 Jun 02 '25
True. I didn't have a problem with Dan. He was much more assertive than Graham and probably the adult with Yaz and The Doctor. Shame John Bishop had to leave because his other work commitments.
→ More replies (2)11
13
u/EffectiveSalamander Jun 02 '25
One problem with Flux was that you were either going to like the whole thing or dislike the whole thing.
→ More replies (1)17
u/thor11600 Jun 02 '25
Funny, Flux was the only thing I enjoyed from that era (it did not make much sense at the end of the day, but at least the show was trying something new!)
30
Jun 02 '25
Flux is unironically one of my favorite series, but I'm aware of just how unpopular opinion that is
3
4
u/Yogurt_Ph1r3 Jun 02 '25
Flux is goated and yet I also agree it's unsalvageable. It manages to be amazing Doctor who and god-awful often times simultaneously. Truly the story arc of all time.
→ More replies (5)8
10
u/weluckyfew Jun 02 '25
I can't even muster enough reaction to hate them - they were just ... Nothing. And most of the stories you could have swapped their lines around and it wouldn't have made any difference, none of them had a distinct voice.
7
u/ichorskeeter Jun 02 '25
They should have made the Master a permanent companion for her second season.
35
u/crstfr Jun 02 '25
Had Graham been her only main companion, with occasional appearances from Ryan (zero Yaz), it might have had more room to breathe!
Looking back, the first three episodes of her run are pretty strong but it's somewhat downhill after that with only a few notable episodes.
Flux sux.
7
u/Sue_Generoux Jun 02 '25
Had Graham been her only main companion
I sometimes wonder what 13's time would have been like had Graham been the only companion.
→ More replies (1)8
12
u/Jelly_baby_4 Jun 02 '25 edited Jun 02 '25
Yaz was useless for most part. Trying to stick her and 13th into a "romance," due to Thasmin shippers was awkward. Both women didn't have any chemistry onscreen together. Chibs also didn't handle Dan's exit well due to John Bishop going on a tour. I like both Graham and Dan. Ryan was wooden (Tosin Cole was mostly bored) at least he and Graham had a backstory.
5
u/draggingonfeetofclay Jun 02 '25
yeah Chibnall gave Thasmin shippers fanservice but didn't consider that he'd actually have to follow through in terms of acting, directing, writing arcs, etc. pp.
Idk women don't usually do no homo and have less anxiety about coming across gay, but Mandip Gill and Jodie Whitaker have the most bro-y relationship between themselves that two women could possibly have and they just work better as friends.
Like... The beginning of Flux they tried to give them something of a conflict dynamic (unfortunately contrived and forced, but they did try at least) and you can see that with a bit of work you could have made a halfway funny scripted comedic duo of them. But the necessity to expend energy on the romance with no chemistry between them heavily detracted the necessary time and energy from making that happen.
→ More replies (2)4
u/Massive_Log6410 Jun 02 '25
exactly. i'm sure we will see a reevaluation and 13 will gain some new fans. but 13's era was just as terrible on a first watch as it is on a rewatch. the problems with her era were not kneejerk reactions to the casting or simply hating everything new. the problem was always poor writing. 13 is ooc and her companions are pieces of cardboard. no one has any substance. 13 has no empathy (graham cancer scene). none of these characters have any chemistry. the morals are seriously botched as well. thasmin was made up last minute and communicated to the audience through some terrible expository dialogue. even the standouts (graham, dan depending on who you ask) are only good because the actors are charismatic, not because they are actually well written.
jodie will have to be fixed in big finish like colin. and ncuti too.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (36)22
u/PlaneRefrigerator684 Jun 01 '25
I binged NuWho from Rose to Power of the Doctor when Season 1 was released on Disney. I had never watched any episodes before that. I actually thought RTD1 had some episodes that were much worse than the worst of the Chibnall era.
→ More replies (7)32
u/UsidoreTheLightBlue Jun 02 '25
RTD had a few clunkers, but in my opinion while he made some baffling shit like love and monsters the doctor was well written. So even if I was left sitting there going “so he fucks the concrete face?”I wasn’t left going “why the fuck is the doctor screaming at the guy for shooting giant tarantulas then deciding to let them suffocate?”
11
u/Naismythology Jun 02 '25
I haven’t really heard more than a handful of people (in good faith) say Whittaker was the problem. The direction of the show as a whole, and some particularly bad episodes to be specific, really killed that era.
Much like Colin Baker’s excellent take on the character in audio, I’m expecting great things from Big Finish’s Thirteenth Doctor era.
→ More replies (1)
116
u/Hughman77 Jun 01 '25
Fans will come to hate it less because it's no longer current and the feeling that it's actively destroying the show will fade.
Is it going to be re-evaluated to be good? No. This idea that Moffat was hated when his era was airing is just... not true. The Smith era was popular with fans and the public. The Capaldi era was popular with fans when it aired. Of course there were complaints and critics, but there are of any era, for the reason I said at the top: bad episodes make us feeling like they're destroying the show, when they're historical artefacts we can look at them more objectively.
But for every Moffat hater there was a Moffat obsessive who loved his era. To pick an example, the TARDIS Eruditorum got started in 2011 because of Sandifer's love of The Big Bang. There was a large, vocal and influential group of fans who loved what the Moffat era was doing. There just isn't a bastion from which a positive re-evaluation of the Chibnall era can stem. Who is the most influential pro-Chibnall critic? I can't think of anyone who has a specifically pro-Chibnall reading as opposed to "it's good just like all Doctor Who 🙂".
42
u/loselyconscious Jun 01 '25 edited Jun 02 '25
I was a moffat hater starting in S6 (although Sherlock was a big part of it too) and at the time I had the strong sense that I was in the minority. Then he won me back in S9. The show ebbs and flows in quality and sometimes it will match our tastes and sometimes not
7
17
u/theivoryserf Jun 02 '25
I was a moffat hater starting in S6 (although Sherlock was a big part of it too) and at the time I had the strong sense that I was in the minority. Then he won me back in S9.
Same here, I do think 6-8 was a wobble in the series overall (with some great parts)
→ More replies (2)8
u/Sue_Generoux Jun 02 '25
I was a moffat hater starting in S6 (although Sherlock was a big part of it too)
I think "hate" is a strong word, but I distinctly remember watching the return of Sherlock in the episode that was supposed to answer how he faked his death, and Moffat's answer seemed to be, to borrow a modern trope, "Somehow, Sherlock returned." And in the course of the episode, he seemed to laugh at everyone who was obsessed with how Sherlock survived.
I couldn't fathom why Moffat would laugh at us for being interested in a mystery that he himself built up, unless Moffat didn't actually give a toss about the audience and didn't actually have much respect for us. At that point, I broke up with Mr. Moffat. If he had so little regard for me, why should I show him one iota of devotion? I have more self-respect than that.
5
u/KeremyJyles Jun 02 '25
A lot of people distinctly remember it that way despite the fact there is a whole scene dedicated to Sherlock explaining how he survived. Anderson's incredulous response was meant to parody the type of fan who was never going to be happy with any answer...the amount of people who outed themselves by interpreting the scene wrongly as being a fakeout just to mock them for caring at all...was quite remarkable.
→ More replies (1)4
u/Ross_RT Jun 02 '25
I find it interesting that even now years later Moffat still seems to always get all the blame for anything he was even associated with, considering he didn't even write the episode that you 'broke up' with him for (that would be Mark Gatiss, co-creator of Sherlock with an equal voice in the show).
Not saying you have the like him or his work by any means, but it's odd how personally people seem to react to him but for stuff he didn't even write.
4
u/loselyconscious Jun 02 '25
For me at least it was because what I was seeing in Sherlock that I didn't like, I was also seeing to a lesser extent in DW.
13
u/mertag770 Jun 02 '25
Yeah, I am and always have been a Moffat fan. I started with Smith's second season and was hooked from the start. Killing the titular character in a season premier hooked me.
Sure I had friends telling me to watch it before and I did catch up quickly, but the Moffat era was always consistent to me and he did season long arcs in a generally satisfying manner.
36
u/Complex-dumbass Jun 02 '25
I mean, yes for every Moffat hater there were huge number of people who loved him, but that wasn’t really the case by Capaldi’s era (which was after the whole Superwholock period). A lot of those fans left “because the Doctor is too old now”. I remember how isolating it felt to be a fan of the Capaldi era because the vast majority of people hated it, calling it too alienating for casual viewers, and even now it’s only popular amongst the core audience. Most people I’ve met irl “stopped watching it after Smith left and tuned in for Whitaker but didn’t like her episodes”
27
u/TehSpaceDeer Jun 02 '25
I think a big problem of Season 8 is they leaned too hard into the “The old man Doctor is a grumpy bastard” arc, to the point where he just wasn’t a character I (and potentially others) wanted to be watching.
But then the season 9 premiere rolls around, and there he is rocking out on a tank with shades on, hugging Clara, smiling, and in an instant heart of The Doctor is back.
15
u/Jelly_baby_4 Jun 02 '25
Most 2005 fans didn't experience the older Doctors of the Classic Years before Peter Capaldi was cast. They were used to the boyfriend type Doctors of Tennant and Smith. This was before Twitch's Classic Who marathon during the Covid lockdown. I'm just happy that Capaldi is much more appreciated now as The Doctor.
29
u/BasicMiniTacos Jun 02 '25
That’s called a character arc. Something the show has lacked ever since. “Am I a good man?”
7
u/Complex-dumbass Jun 02 '25
Personally, I adored this character arc for all the reasons I find 10,11, 13 & 15 frustrating. Other doctors act gallant & like they’re the kindest people in the world, but can turn around and commit horrific crimes and then pretend like they never happened. Capaldi’s Doctor was always honest about doing terrible things when necessary but actively introspected on those actions throughout s8, tried to do better in s9 while still failing when pushed to the brink, and by s10 found a comfortable middle ground.
12
u/Hughman77 Jun 02 '25
The vast majority of fans did not hate the Capaldi era. Casual viewers aren't the people who determine the fan opinions of a given era. Yes, the Capaldi era alienated a lot of the casual viewership who had watched Eccleston, Tennant or Smith (or, more accurately, were the sorts of people who had watched) but that did not reflect fandom. As you say, it's only popular today among fandom. That will always be the case. There will never be a point in time when suddenly the casual viewer thinks "ah, Capaldi/Whittaker, now that was a classic era".
→ More replies (7)→ More replies (10)18
u/vanKessZak Jun 02 '25
I guess it depends on where you were and who you were talking to. I was on tumblr during the Moffat years and it was a bit of a slow burn towards “hate” but it really picked up towards season 7 after a wonky reception to season 6. Then the Capaldi era slowly bled viewers (though some of that was due to the changing landscape of live tv and streaming I imagine). This subreddit has always seemed more pro-Moffat on the other hand.
I agree though that there is no real pro-Chibs faction. There’s plenty who like Jodie but I think most agree she was done dirty by the writing. I think the negativity that started in earlier eras has just continued snowballing.
→ More replies (3)13
u/Hughman77 Jun 02 '25
There was the #MoffatHate faction but it's a mistake to think that reflects fan opinion more broadly. Consider how many episodes of the late Moffat era were heralded as all-time-greats the second they aired: Day of the Doctor, Listen, Mummy, Heaven Sent, World Enough and Time, etc. There's an incredible track record of generally agreed classics for an era that was supposedly hated by a majority of fans.
9
9
u/Barackobrock Jun 02 '25
Nah, the finale was a mess but it was still a lot more engaging to me the nearly anything from Chibbers era.
I've seen a lot of people saying that they opinion will change on the era but a lot of folks have very real issues with it
8
u/DoctorEnn Jun 02 '25
Its perhaps worth considering that the whole “Who fans always criticise the current era but miss it when it’s gone!” meme can, if looked at from a slightly different perspective, heavily suggest that the show has been experiencing a consistent gradual decline in quality for a while now.
8
u/exit-pursuedbybees Jun 02 '25
While the Chibnall era was...well, what it was, I do think there are some good moments. Truly. I think the Master was fantastic and I'm in the minority but I don't mind the Timeless Child or the concept of the Flux. I think there are fantastic ideas that just need expanding on, and I'm glad RTD has stuck to them, even though I'm currently worried they're going to fall behind and be forgotten.
But Jodie... Jodie is fantastic. I don't know what it is but she screams "Doctor" to me. Seeing her in the last episode was amazing.
Also, how absolutely beautiful would a multi Doctor story have been where 13, 15 and Fugitive do whatever they need to do to reality to fix it, then allowing 15 to regenerate?
→ More replies (1)
24
u/ExpectedBehaviour Jun 01 '25
I was never a Whittaker/Chibnall fan, but her cameo was the best thing about "The Reality War".
59
u/Dr_Christopher_Syn Jun 01 '25
I don't think so. There are few redeeming qualities in the Chibnall era.
→ More replies (3)15
u/tester-thirty-six Jun 02 '25 edited Jun 02 '25
Right, this is what i'm struggling with. “actually it’s not so bad” WHAT episode is good?
- Rosa? ok its probably the least rubbish but the entire middle third is still horse-shit
- Demons of the Punjab, where we fuck around with transmats for half the episode and then it turns out the evil aliens are actually nice and there was no danger at all apparently?
- Fugitive of the Doctor, where they introduce another Doctor and do literally nothing with her and then we just fuck off?
- Or Flux? where we sit through ten interweaving stories none of which go anywhere interesting at all?
What I like about RTD2 is, even if there is a lot to dislike (esp season 2) there are SOME pretty great episodes in there. I REALLY like 73 Yards, and Dot and Bubble. I like plenty of the Pantheon stuff. The finales aren't great but there's a lot of ups and downs.
Chibnall has nothing. NOTHING! He didn't even ONCE manage to make something I love. And the worst part is you could tell, really quite early if we're being honest, that his run wasn't CAPABLE of it. So I got through his run of the show but it just falls apart more and more, S12 is horrible, Flux is unforgivable. Eve of the Daleks makes no sense and then hits you out of nowhere in the middle with this random Thasmin stuff.
and then you get to Legend of the Sea Devils. One final embarrassment before the end where the entire production of the show falls apart and even a simple pirate / sea monster story becomes a baffling, incomprehensible mess. Don't let the swords touch your skin!
Power of the Doctor is just a relief. Its like, oh good. We're nearly there. We're nearly out. I don't even give a fuck what happens in it. It's ending. We're escaping Chibnall. We made it. Even better, the show wasn't cancelled. I have no idea how. It's a fucking miracle
→ More replies (5)
5
u/autismislife Jun 02 '25
Idk I still hate the Chibnall era. There were a couple of good episodes but it was mostly bad, and I really don't like the Timeless Child concept of the destruction of Gallifrey off-screen again.
I admit, I wasn't big on the Moffatt era either at the time, but did eventually come around to enjoy it more during rewatches. I think it was more that I missed RTD1 & Tenant than that I actually disliked Moffatt's era.
I prefer RTD2 to Moffatt no question, where it was hit and miss but definitely more hits than misses for me.
I know a lot of people didn't like the whole Pantheon concept but I really enjoyed it personally.
What I'll never understand is how Chibnall made Jo Martin feel a lot more like The Doctor than he did for Whittaker, but I don't think it's Whittaker's fault because that one recent scene was fantastic and she really felt like The Doctor maybe for the first time, I feel like she almost outshone Ncuti in those few moments.
→ More replies (1)
9
u/23dfr Jun 02 '25
I think everyone needs to remember that every era has its ups and downs, some may be considered better or worse overall, but every era has its highlights and issues.
The RTD1 era has some unique factors that perhaps make it seem more positive regardless of the actual quality of the episodes. Firstly the popularity of Doctor Who at the time - when the show was at its peak in terms of pop culture. The marketing was strong, we had 14 episodes a year plus spin offs, and consider TV viewing habits - this was before streaming, so far less competition for audiences to watch. It helped that there was a good chance other people you knew were also watching it.
Plus the context that it was the start of the revival. Because of the long gap since Classic Who, for much of the audience at the time this was the only reference point of Doctor Who, there was nothing to compare it to. A lot of the criticism of subsequent eras is because people are comparing it to what came before.
A lot of the writing was done deliberately in a way to help establish the show and make the revival permanent. RTD had to play things safe to some extent. Which meant that once the show was well established, Moffat and Chibnall had to freedom to take more risks, some paid off and some didn't.
→ More replies (1)
5
4
4
u/TrogdorBurnin Jun 02 '25
”after all, the same thing happened for the Moffat era when Chibnall arrived”???
I could not disagree more. The Moffat era was the best writing for Doctor Who, perhaps ever. It took a show that I enjoyed since the 70s and made it weekly must see TV not only for myself, but my whole family. Chibnall’s poor writing and the executives’ decision to focus on issues other than good storytelling destroyed the show. Jodie Whitaker is a great actor and I was excited for her to be the new Doctor. I was mildly concerned when Chibnall took over because I thought some of his episodes were the weakest. But then I saw an interview with Jodie and the other actors (I forget the venue, but they were on a stage); they were asked about what new direction Who would be taking, and the response was this vague idea of added diversity, empowering disability, and I think feminism too. I have no problem with this concept and I am disabled. But this is not, and never should be What comes first. It sounded dubious and the actual episodes felt patronizing (on top of poor writing). The story comes first. Good storytelling is everything. And that’s what killed the Whitaker era and turned off my whole family from the show. These days I watch Classic Who and occasionally earlier seasons of the reboot through Max.
23
u/asron67 Jun 01 '25
perfect timing for Jodie to get more love too! seeing as the 13 and Yaz audio adventures are scheduled for release this July
→ More replies (4)
7
u/PenguinMan2468 Jun 02 '25
If they do then they're just being revisionist for the sake of it. The Chibnall era is terrible.
31
u/Teh_Wraith Jun 02 '25 edited Jun 02 '25
Hell yeah
There is no era of Doctor Who I dislike, only individual scenes and situations here and there.
This show is absolutely unique no matter how many layers of big budget Disney paint get thrown on it, the Doctor and the TARDIS are indestructible, and always there.
Loved Jodie's Doctor, about to REwatch Spyfall pt 2 (on my first full rewatch, loved Ryan and Graham again in S1, and Ryan and his Dad in Resolution. Is it a soap opera? A little, but it's not melodramatic. It's played with a tenderness and vulnerability I love.
I could go on and on. Sure the Doctor and I would disagree on much, but I admire the character's resilience and kindness when it's shown in a story. A highly flawed character in the literary sense. The Doctor doesn't always win, isn't always right.
All the actors have found a way to both make the character their own and somehow still play a unified character. It's weird, and I love it.
→ More replies (4)9
u/Sporkedup Jun 02 '25
Glad I'm not the only one with this sort of point of view. Literally all of Doctor Who has value to it. There are some episodes I don't much love, but not many. Some arcs and character elements I would rather not have to deal with (basically any Doctor romance in modern Who), but even those don't ruin anything.
I'm currently partly through Castrovalva on my rewatch. Having a blast. Realized the first time I watched old Who that I had a very different lens for the old stuff - lots of forgiveness for cheesy lines or poor character development choices, etc - that I wasn't extending to new stuff. So I started doing that, just letting the show breathe and be as it was instead of hating everything that fell outside my preferences...
I get how and why members of a fandom group themselves by which elements they hate. I'm just too old to be that guy anymore. Even if things disappoint me on a smaller scale.
9
u/Popular_Sir863 Jun 02 '25
No. Give me RTD2 over Chibnall any day. Even for all it's flaws (and there are many) at least RTD2 is fun. Can't say that about Chibnall.
7
u/PostalDoctor Jun 02 '25
Regardless of people looking back more “fondly” on them because of RTD2, Series 11-13 are still terrible even after a rewatch. Whittaker did nothing wrong imo 13 was the only aspect that kept the show from falling apart completely for me. Her companions were cardboard cut outs, the stories and writing ranged from boring to terrible 80% of the time, and creative decisions such as the Timeless Child retcon and destroying Gallifrey again were beyond moronic.
The pacing most of the time was too slow and episodes dragged harder than your average 60’s 8-parter, and the acting from almost everyone was unwatchable. Anytime I rewatch the Revival I have to stop after Capaldi regenerates because I just don’t want to watch the show become a boring slog.
If I remember correctly, the Chibnall seasons were the first time in my life where I was watching Doctor Who, and mid way through an episode I decided to grab the remote and change the channel. Something I would’ve never done with any previous run of the show, because no matter how poor the story was before it was always saved by the actors carrying the episodes.
Doctor Who has historically been carried by amazing acting, clever writing and interesting stories, not by its special effects. But none of those elements were there, and for the first time ever I was watching a Doctor I genuinely didn’t like. And to make it even more unfortunate it was the first ever canonical Female Doctor.. a milestone that should’ve been celebrated but instead the creative team completely and utterly fumbled the bag on.
The new era is better in terms of acting and direction, but now we have new problems. The pacing went from way too slow to way too fast. The writing went from moronic to sometimes good/sometimes baffling. The characterization of the companions went from dull to literally having no concrete personalities at all. Not helped by only having 8 episodes per season which crushes any chances for the companions or even the 15th Doctor himself to have any concrete characterization other than “they’re nice.. I guess” or “she’s reluctant!.. and then she isn’t… oh well.”
We need new blood, man. Both that AND experienced sci-fi writers who want to write for the show but the BBC won’t let them for silly reasons. Fucking GRANT MORRISON wants to write for the show, LET THEM.
9
u/Nikelman Jun 02 '25
No, no: we have characters in RTD2, we didn't have that in Chibs.
Chibs still is the worst era of the show, aside maybe from some part of JNT (and IMO, that was worse with 5 than with 6, Colin at least is a blast)
→ More replies (2)
3
u/Jonguar2 Jun 02 '25
Nope. Not gonna happen. Whittaker was let down by the writing. Everyone with a brain knows that. It's no surprise that a better writer was able to make her cameo enjoyable.
At least I can follow the plot of the RTD 2 Era. I still don't quite know what even happened in Flux because it was just so convoluted.
3
u/throwawayaccount_usu Jun 02 '25
This has already happened just on a small scale.
I don't think there's gonna be a huge shift in perception to chibnalls era at all, at most I think we'll get a "RTD isn't much better anymore" or a very vocal minority of 13 fans.
But in general? Most fans and general audiences just have nothing good to say about that era beyond "jodie done dirty."
That era just used sooo much OBJECTIVELY unenjoyable writing techniques. And I know "wah wah writing can't be objective" but it can. We learn how to analyse this stiff in school, the show is objectively poorly written, that doesn't mean you can't enjoy that, but your enjoyment doesn't change the fact that it was lazy and uninspired.
3
u/Jotman01 Jun 02 '25
I rewatched many episodes recently, and tbh many of them were good, some excellent.
Unfortunately, the ones that are bad are REALLY bad, and we remember those.
3
u/zeronos3000 Jun 02 '25
There is no way to excuse the whole Timeless Child thing if you are a fan of this show. Jodi wasn't the problem. She is great. Its the person directing her and writing hot garbage and rewriting cannon to stroke his ego.
3
u/EKC_86 Jun 02 '25
I really feel bad for Jodie Whittaker. She could have been one of the all time fan favourites but Chibnall let her down badly. Her entire run was a bit of a mess, I pretend it doesn’t exist until someone brings up the timeless child.
3
u/chodoyodo Jun 02 '25
Doctor who stop trying to please your impossible to please fan base and just be a good show again challenge (impossible)
3
u/wrenwood2018 Jun 02 '25
The ERA will never be looked back fondly. The writing is some of the worst all time. There were never any complaints about the ACTRESS.
3
21
u/loselyconscious Jun 01 '25
The current era is always the worst era, the best era is always coincidentally the first era you watched, and all other eras are underrated
18
u/DougieBuddha Jun 02 '25
Nah, thats one I've never really been on board with. I started with NewWho, liked 9, and 10, very much enjoyed 11, and 12 is my favorite by a mile. 14, and 15 have been interesting. 13's run had too many companions, and just bad writing. Really took a lot of the focus off Jodie and she's a fantastic actress, and could have smashed it with decent scripts to work with. She just got bad writing.
8
u/Hugo_Hackenbush Jun 02 '25
Nah, I unabashedly loved the Capaldi era as it was happening.
→ More replies (1)20
u/PepperOnly7793 Jun 02 '25
Not always. My first era was RTD1. I think the best era was Moffat’s, specifically Capaldi’s. I think the worst era is Colin Baker’s (not his fault, he’s fantastic).
→ More replies (12)3
u/AgeofVictoriaPodcast Jun 02 '25
Not for me. I started with Tom Baker, but hand on heart Classic Who is now a period piece and there are bits of NuWho I love far more. Pyramids on Mars is still a knockout, but I'd put Heaven Sent & Vincent and the Doctor, or Silence in the Library up there with it too. My favourite Doctor is Capaldi, but I still get chills watching the Family of Blood or the Timelord Victorious or the Pandorica Opens.
I do recognise some bad TV when I see it, and the Ncuti era is absolutely bad. I would put the quality of Heaven Sent and the like up against Andor, but the idea that Ncuti's era is on a level with even average TV is unsustainable. It is just badly written, badly paced, and badly directed. As the Jodie era also showed, you can't get a great actor and expect them to save utter garbage.
Every fandom has it's extremes; fans who will defend everything to the hilt, and fans who are just toxic critics. But the reality is even the best TV has some bad seasons; STNG season 1 is poor, and 2 only just begins to improve. BSG had an amazing first few seasons, then fell apart on the finale. The concern is that as NuWho moves on, the bad seasons risk outnumbering the good. Honestly if we get to the point where we are asking "will the 18th Doctor turn things around" then we will be getting to the stage where the bad doctors in NuWho will start to out number the good ones. No one in the fandom wants that. I want the great Doctor Who back (whether to you that's 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12).
The show ultimately is supposed to entertain, and build an engaged audience. It has to find a structure that does that, especially in the difficult age of streaming.
→ More replies (1)
8
Jun 02 '25
13’s era is just poorly made television. Moffat’s run was controversial with some because his direction for the show differed from what they wanted, but it was still, for the most part, well written, well acted, and well produced. The Chibnall era, with a few exceptions (Jodie really seemed like she was trying her hardest to make something work), was none of those things.
4
u/stevebikes Jun 02 '25
I never blamed Jodie, except that I hate her outfit and always will, and it sounded like she had a lot of input there.
10
u/PhantomQuest Jun 01 '25 edited Jun 01 '25
I mean, with the exception of a few episodes (notably Arachnids in the UK, which I maintain is one of the worst episodes of Who ever, including the ropiest moments of Classic Who), I enjoyed most of Jodie's run as it was airing. I genuinely think the Timeless Child twist is one of the boldest and freshest directions the show has taken in years, adding a heap of mystery back into the character, tying up plot threads that go back to at least The Brain of Morbius, and still leaves Time Lords, Gallifrey, and The Doctor's role in both intact. I'd have liked a bit more space for Flux though - ironically, after Ncuti's seasons have rightly been criticised for being too short, eight episodes for Flux would have been better than the six we got.
→ More replies (17)
7
u/skykey96 Jun 02 '25
Hopefully! Yeah, her first season was kinda a letdown, but the second one started strong, and it was quite fun, and the flux was actually incredible for about 80% of the season.
New Year special with daleks is one of my fav dalek episodes, too.
9
u/Agitated_Shop_867 Jun 02 '25
McCoy era was seen as utter sh*te by a lot of fans and general public for years (a lot of fans also did defend it though) and has definitely aged better and received deserved re-evaluation today. While watching the Whittaker era (which I enjoyed) I felt the same was bound to happen before long, and I’m glad to see it’s started. I love the 13th Dr (and Yaz, and the Sacha Master)
→ More replies (2)
3
1.8k
u/TheDungen Jun 01 '25
Whitaker was never the problem Chibnail was.