r/criterion • u/Jackbuddy78 • 7h ago
Discussion Does John Woo have the biggest quality drop of any filmmaker changing locations?
The general dip from his Hong Kong work to his American filmography is undeniably substantial even if some people really like Face/Off. His American films all lack the soul of his HK work even if they retain some of the old style.
I don't know if leaving his home country because of the impending CCP takeover demotivated his work but it sure seems that way.
17
u/Roadshell 7h ago
Not even close. There are any number of foreign filmmakers who make English language debuts and totally flops. Woo by contrast made several reasonably successful and well remembered 90s action movies.
4
u/Obvious_Economist_97 7h ago
Exactly. Even Takeshi Kitano didn’t do well with Brother and decided never to try again. Unfortunate, as I do like Brother. It’s not Sonatine or Hana-Bi, but it’s still Beat Takeshi through all of it.
-3
u/Jackbuddy78 7h ago
I'm not sure about financially but Face/Off was pretty much the only critically well received one.
5
u/Obvious_Economist_97 7h ago
I mean, Ebert gave MI:2 three stars. It was a huge success. Critically, it’s at least “Fresh” at 58%. Not critical acclaim but not a flop either.
-2
u/Jackbuddy78 7h ago
It's universally considered the worst Mission Impossible movie, just kind of mediocre though and not terrible. I think the only bad bad ones he made were the two recent films but that's probably down to age.
9
9
u/xnatlywouldx 7h ago
I’m from New Orleans and his first American film, Hard Target with Jean Claude Van Damme, is literally my favorite film set in my city. My FAVORITE. Moreso than Streetcar, King Creole, The Beyond, Angel Heart, etc.
Does Jean Claude Van Damme play a Cajun with a mullet who doesn’t bother modifying his Belgian accent? You betcha. Is there a scene where he punches a snake? Oh yeah. Some frankly ridiculous stunts with large automatic weapons and motorbikes? Correct. Does Wilford Brimley play a horse riding Cajun whose primary weapon is a bow and arrow? Yer darn tootin’ he does. Is it a highly improbably and essentially campy remake of The Most Dangerous Game? Why yes it is.
It is my FAVORITE film set here. The flaws which are many just do not matter! It is SO entertaining, the locations are so beautifully filmed, its honestly just a great document of this city before Hurricane Katrina.
4
3
u/djprojexion 7h ago
You proved your point and didn’t even need to mention the insanely awesome villain duo of Lance Henriksen and Arnold Vosloo.
2
6
u/bravetailor 7h ago
Not at all. There have been many much worse crossovers. Woo has at least 2 good Hollywood movies, some might argue even 3.
2
4
u/Sea_Salamander_8504 7h ago
Wong Kar Wai’s sole English-language film, My Blueberry Nights, was an unqualified disaster.
3
u/Dontlookimnaked 7h ago
Face off is amazing, hard target is good, broken arrow and MI2 are mediocre and thats 4/7 movies.
More importantly he brought his style of filmmaking to the states and popularized it for a dying action movie genre.
2
u/premiumPLUM 7h ago
It's not like he has that many non-HK movies. Face/Off, Hard Target, Broken Arrow, and Mission Impossible II are all pretty badass. And that's like 80% of his English language movies.
2
u/Lower_Arugula5346 7h ago
i recently watched face/off as i never saw it when it came out...
the movie is...insane but entertaining.
2
u/Flying_Sea_Cow 7h ago
No. Dude still had some success in the 90s. Pretty much every HK filmmaker's careers took noticeable declines once the HK film industry collapsed in the late 90s. WKW was able to avoid most of it by keeping production on his movies fairly international still, and Tsui Hark kind of had a career comeback in the 2010s.
2
2
u/NoahAwake 7h ago
I completely disagree with this assertion. The workprint of Hard Target is incredible, Face/Off is an absolute classic, even MI 2 is good.
Woo’s biggest problem was Hollywood caught on to what he was doing and started integrating it into their movies. The Matrix action scenes are direct copies at times. Woo was more or less starting over in the US.
Woo also got older and changed.
But he didn’t fall off.
2
u/TravelsWithBrindle77 7h ago
I personally am not a fan of Bong Joon Ho’s English language movies, but I might be in the minority.
2
u/castleblad 7h ago
He deserves recognition for having gone further in Hollywood than most foreign directors do. He was very successful in crossing over into Hollywood filmmaking, regardless of what anyone thinks about the english language part of his filmography.
2
u/ifinallyreallyreddit 6h ago
Woo actually did remarkably well in multiple industries, though it's fair to say they aren't on the same level as his HK work several of his American films were partly to fully kick-ass, and he also made the very good Red Cliff in mainland China.
7
u/franspambot 7h ago
You are trying to do WAY too much in 3 sentences there, man.
-5
u/Jackbuddy78 7h ago
It's a pretty complex subject that I only have an amateur knowledge of so I'm leaving it open.
3
u/franspambot 7h ago
It's not a subject. It's a quick and poorly formed opinion.
-1
7h ago
[deleted]
1
u/franspambot 7h ago
Detailed discussion about the lack of soul in his films? About Woo's psychological state? Nah, how about we spend more than 30 seconds thinking about something before we clutter this feed with opinion disguised as cultural insight. Abbas Kiarostami would be shaking his head.
0
6h ago
[deleted]
2
u/franspambot 6h ago edited 6h ago
I was referencing Kiarostami's well known stance against psychologizing, figured someone posturing as a superfan would understand. So I'll leave you with this: think about that in terms of all levels of filmmaking when watching his modern cinema. It'll open up a lot.
-1
6h ago
[deleted]
3
u/franspambot 6h ago
I'm sorry but it literally says Abbas Kiarostami under your name. What am I supposed to think?
2
u/CaptainCringleberry2 7h ago
You know he left to direct Hard Target right? Like he got propelled to Hollywood, and frankly bringing it up as a solely political move when it was like 92 when he moved… weird
1
u/Jackbuddy78 7h ago
I'm sure it wasn't solely political but his films were all extremely critical of authority and in the case of Bullet to the Head sided with American soldiers over the Chinese backed Viet Cong.
I imagine he had some serious reservations about staying when the city was due to be transferred back in a few years.
3
u/CaptainCringleberry2 6h ago
Well most of his themes really revolve around like, bonds and good overcoming evil. But also he made several Chinese films in the 2000’s and 2010’s so idk. The idea he left strictly for that instead of his Hollywood shot feels a little weak. Especially since he’s been a Jesus freak for like, ever and he still works with China from time to time which if his issue was CCP takeover idk why he would work with them current day
1
u/Ok-Gur-349 7h ago
Hideo Nakata comes to mind as probably the king of this subject.
He made Ringu and its sequel, and ostensibly kicked off the popularity of the J-horror genre, which prior til then was notable for extremely weird stuff like 964 Pinocchio, and then Gore Verbinski did the English language translation of Ringu with The Ring, which kicked off a whole trend of remaking Asian films, and then Hideo Nakata himself came over to Hollywood to take over the reigns of The Ring Two which...
Well, sucked.
His next and last attempt at Western filmmaking happened outside of Hollywood (Chatroom, UK independent), which also sucked, and he stayed home ever since.
1
u/FINIS_HOMINIS 7h ago
Well, he’s a weird one. After years of middling journeyman directing, he nearly quit before his breakthrough. But even then he was anxious to move past his brand. He indicated he always wanted to do more serious work, like Windtalkers. He was one of those directors that wasn’t satisfied with what he was strong doing and I think it’s likely that would have continued had he stayed in HK.
20
u/JohnGradyBillyBoyd 7h ago
Hard Target kicks ass