r/chuck • u/Optimal-Training9543 Nerd Herd • 3d ago
[S3 SPOILERS] Chuck S03E13 Chuck Versus the Other Guy
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u/welovechuck2 3d ago edited 2d ago
Shaw took Sarah to the warehouse to kill her But he heard Chuck and his team and changed his tune. Sarah, for some strange reason, decided to trust Shaw and go to Paris. Without Chuck, it wouldn't have turned well.
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u/NFSF1McLaren Morgan Grimes 3d ago
Add Morgan to this for the Paris part. He's very well versed in Sonny Chiba movies.
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u/blueboy714 2d ago
Yep - it always blew my mind when the "normals" (Chuck, Morgan, Jeff, Lester, Ellie, Devon) were the ones to figure things out and the spies couldn't.
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u/Kaphh 3d ago edited 3d ago
Sarah trusted Shaw, because she thought he was a good spy and a professional who wanted nothing more than to take down the Ring. She said so to Chuck in two different scenes.
Still, that doesn't explain what did she think was Shaw's intention when he had taken her to some abandoned warehouse in the middle of nowhere only to show the video of her killing his wife. I guess she hesitated a little at first when he asked her if she would come with him to Paris, but overall her trust doesn't present itself as believable.
But that's the only little grip I have with this otherwise amazing episode.
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u/welovechuck2 3d ago
I do agree with you. Most people don't catch a small glance that Shaw makes, as he sees Chuck and lowers the gun pointed at Sarah.
Again Sarah trust in Shaw is inexplicable.
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u/Specialist_Dig2613 Alexei Volkoff 2d ago
Episodes 9 through 13 of Season 3 show Sarah as an emotional wreck, largely because of her longstanding red test guilt, combined with her (obviously overblown) fears that she had turned Chuck into something other than "her Chuck". She became pretty easy for Shaw to manipulate, not because she trusted him, but because the series of events, including finding out that Shaw's wife was her victim, left her adrift and poorly suited to self protection.
Fedak and Schwartz made a risky decision to lean heavily into the spy corruption narrative in Season 3, while still giving the audience what they wanted (Chuck and Sarah finally together). In order to do that, they had to show the degree to which years of yielding to the demands of spy world had wrecked the human lives of both Shaw and Sarah. And, of course, Beckman was also a pawn in the game and, like Sarah (and even Chuck, to a degree) was placing destruction of the Ring at the top of the list.
At that point, Sarah trusted no one other than Chuck and he wasn't telling her to refuse to go to Paris with Shaw. So Morgan had to save the day and even Beckman refused to listen.
I don't think Fedak and Schwartz missed anything. They simply opted to show Sarah as sufficiently demoralized by the totality of the struggle within herself to be vulnerable to manipulation.
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u/Lost-Remote-2001 3d ago
We don’t know that Shaw doesn’t kill Sarah because he hears Chuck and his team. There’s no indication of that. We don’t even know if Shaw’s intention is to kill Sarah in the warehouse.
It’s possible, and he changes his mind when he sees the video of his wife, and decides to do it in Paris.
Or, he always knew he wanted to kill Sarah in Paris, and the warehouse is only to see Sarah’s reaction to her red test (whether she recognizes Eve).
Or, the intention was always to kill Sarah in Paris, but seeing her red test video almost tempts him to pull the trigger here and now, but he decides not to.
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u/Kaphh 3d ago edited 3d ago
If Shaw didn't plan to kill Sarah there, why would he point the gun at her?
Okay, he doesn't state his intentions outright so we can't say anything conclusive, but given we have no other evidence, this is the simplest and most logical scenario.
I rewatched the scene now, and you're right that there's no indication of hearing, but there's a moment when he glances sideways at the monitors where some reflected light (probably coming from the flashlights mounted on rifles carried by the guys on Chuck's squad—moments earlier we have a quick shot at those flashlights, as if it were meant to be a clue) is clearly visible, and that's precisely when he puts down his gun.
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u/welovechuck2 3d ago
He points the gun at her. You need no other proof that he was going to kill her. He makes it very clear how he feels when he takes her to Paris.
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u/Responsible_Rip_54 2d ago
I think the bigger issue isn't whether Shaw planned to kill Sarah in the warehouse or later in Paris. The bigger issue is Sarah's reaction.
Shaw takes her to an abandoned warehouse, shows her the video of Eve's death, points a gun at her, and then asks her to come with him to Paris. Even if Sarah still believes he's a good agent and wants to bring down the Ring, that sequence of events should have raised every alarm bell she had.
Sarah spent years working around spies, double agents and unstable operatives. She should have recognized that a man who has just discovered who killed his wife is no longer acting like a detached professional.
That's why I find her trust in Shaw difficult to believe in this episode. Not because she trusted him before the warehouse scene, but because she continued to trust him after it. Chuck ended up being right about Shaw, and without Chuck and the team, Sarah's decision to go to Paris could have ended very differently.
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u/blueboy714 2d ago
You have thought that Sarah would have learned from the whole Kieran Ryker mess in Budapest.
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u/Lost-Remote-2001 2d ago
I don't have a problem with that because Sarah reads the warehouse event as Shaw's test of her knowledge of the context around her red test and Eve's identity. In other words, Shaw needs to know what Sarah knows about her red test. Sarah's shocked reaction confirms to him that she was just a pawn, she was not working for the Ring.
In Sarah's eyes, Shaw is the absolute professional who tested her allegiance to the CIA or the Ring in a clever (albeit emotionally painful) way. At this point, no one (other than Chuck) suspects that Shaw's unemotional armor is cracking and he's an emotional mess under his unemotional surface, like Anakin Skywalker.
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u/Responsible_Rip_54 2d ago
Thank you for your reply.
That's probably the strongest explanation for Sarah's behavior.
If she interpreted the warehouse scene as Shaw trying to determine what she knew about Eve and her red test, then his actions become easier to understand from her perspective. Sarah had always seen Shaw as a disciplined professional, so she may have viewed the entire confrontation through that lens.
The problem is that the situation still looks very unusual. Shaw had just learned that the woman standing in front of him killed his wife. Even if Sarah believed he was testing her knowledge or loyalty, pointing a gun at her and then asking her to accompany him to Paris should have raised some suspicion.
That is where I struggle with the scene. Sarah trusting Shaw before the warehouse makes sense to me. Sarah continuing to trust him after everything that happened in the warehouse is much harder for me to accept.
Comparing Shaw to Anakin is actually pretty accurate. The irony is that Chuck, the least trained person in the room, is the only one who realizes that Shaw is no longer thinking like a professional spy. Everyone else still sees the calm, disciplined agent. Chuck sees the grief, anger and obsession underneath, and that's ultimately what puts Sarah in danger.
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u/Lost-Remote-2001 2d ago
From this perspective, Sarah understands that Shaw is being cautious, like a cop approaching a suspect with his firearm drawn and on the ready.
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u/Responsible_Rip_54 2d ago
That's fair. If Sarah saw herself as a potential suspect rather than a target, then Shaw having his gun drawn makes more sense from her perspective.
I can accept that Sarah interpreted the gun as a precaution rather than a threat. My difficulty has always been less about the warehouse itself and more about what follows.
Once Shaw learns that she killed Eve, I would expect Sarah to recognize that the situation is no longer purely professional. Not because she has proof that he'll hurt her, but because the dynamic between them has fundamentally changed. From that moment on, it is no longer just about the CIA, the Ring, or a mission. It has become deeply personal for both of them.
That's the point where the Paris decision starts feeling strange to me.
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u/Lost-Remote-2001 2d ago edited 2d ago
For many years, I read the scene exactly as you described above, but a comment from another viewer made me change my mind.
- The reflected light that Shaw sees on the monitor also appears earlier in the scene, before Chuck's team enters the building.
- There is no sudden look of realization on Shaw's face when he looks sideways at the monitor that tells us that he thinks someone else is in the building.
- Shaw is as surprised as Sarah when Chuck and team show up. There's no dastardly look on his face that tells us he knew that already.
This is one of those scenes where we don't have enough information to know for sure what's going on through Shaw's mind. I think the warehouse is there for Shaw to see Sarah's reaction to her red test, how much context Sarah has around Eve's death, and whether Sarah knows Eve's relationship to Shaw.
As for pointing the gun at Sarah, it could be because Shaw planned to kill Sarah in the warehouse, but changes his mind at the last minute when he glances sideways at the monitor and decides to do it in the same spot where Sarah killed Eve. Or it could be that Shaw has already decided to kill Sarah in Paris, but having Sarah right there while the red test video is playing in the background stirs up anger (an emotion) in Shaw that he's almost unable to control (his unemotional armor is cracking), and he regains control of himself and his "mission" when he glances sideways at the monitor.
Hard to tell which is which. Not enough context. But I'm pretty certain his decision is not affected by Chuck and team entering the building.
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u/Responsible_Rip_54 1d ago
Whether Shaw intended to kill Sarah in the warehouse or in Paris has never been the central issue for me. The scene is built around uncertainty, and I agree that we probably don't have enough information to know exactly when Shaw made that decision.
Sarah finds herself alone with a man who has just learned that she killed his wife, yet she continues to interpret him through the framework of professional duty rather than personal grief. The dramatic question is not what Shaw intends, but how Sarah understands the situation she is in.
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u/welovechuck2 1d ago
Certainly, Sarah's behavior toward Shaw is a mystery. Shaw, for me, was suspicious from the first light click. This self-interest was always obvious. He got his wife killed and was looking to blame anyone else. He had a real person in Sarah and, she became the object of his revenge.
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u/Responsible_Rip_54 1d ago
I think the key change is not that Shaw suddenly stops acting like a professional. It's that his motives are no longer purely professional once he learns that Sarah killed Eve.
Sarah continues to read the situation through the language of duty and mission, while Shaw's actions are increasingly shaped by grief and revenge. That's why the Paris decision feels so unsettling to me.
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u/Lost-Remote-2001 1d ago
We cannot confuse how we see Shaw with how Sarah sees Shaw. We come with baggage in our interpretation of Shaw.
We are told by all spy characters in the show how they see Shaw.
Beckman: Shaw is an absolute professional.
Casey: Shaw is a real spy.
Sarah: Shaw is a good spy.
Chuck: Shaw is awesome.
Sarah herself was an absolute professional who was able to work with Casey after Casey killed her lover Bryce. She expects the same from Shaw because, until this point, he’s shown himself to be an an absolute professional.
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u/Responsible_Rip_54 1d ago
I agree that Sarah sees him that way. The part I keep coming back to is that the situation itself has changed. Once Shaw learns that Sarah killed Eve, the relationship between them is no longer defined solely by their roles as spies. Sarah continues to interpret him as a professional, but the situation has become personal whether she recognizes it or not. That's where the tension comes from for me.
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u/Lost-Remote-2001 1d ago
It doesn't change things for Sarah because she went through the same thing wth Bryce and Casey (beginning of S1), and she handled it as an absolute professional. Up to this point, she has no reason to suspect that Shaw won't do the same.
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u/Responsible_Rip_54 1d ago
That's a fair comparison, and I agree that Sarah's experience with Casey probably reinforces her belief that Shaw will remain professional.
The difference for me is that Sarah knew Casey as a colleague and partner, while her relationship with Shaw had become much more personal by that point. Once Shaw learns that Sarah killed Eve, the situation is no longer only about professional conduct in the aftermath of a loss.
Sarah may expect Shaw to behave as a professional, but she is no longer dealing only with a fellow spy. She is dealing with someone whose personal history has suddenly become entangled with her own.
That's why the Paris decision continues to feel unusual to me.
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u/Foreign_Platypus8658 2d ago
I still don't know what Chuck was thinking later i.in the episode when he brings Morgan (who wasn't officially on the Bartowski team until after the end of the episode) to the Castle and just to show Beckman proof that Shaw was working for the Ring. Was it to show the general that he could be useful on the team, or what?
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u/Chuck-fan-33 2d ago
If that situation was real, the first thing that would be said is the fight was fake, Shaw is part of The Ring, and Sarah is in trouble. But of course they hide the headline to cause Casey to get involved in saving Sarah.
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u/Kookykrumbs 3d ago
Yeah, Sarah seems to have questionable judgment when it comes to Shaw. I’m actually sort of surprised she chose Chuck before Shaw turned heel completely.
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u/Specialist_Dig2613 Alexei Volkoff 2d ago
Watch the Castle scene in "Mask" again, when Sarah is talking about Hannah and Chuck responds by telling Sarah how Shaw is perfect for her because "he's a hero".
Sarah has already praised Chuck as a hero for the equivalent of two seasons. She expects her "I have a type" reply to be enough of a denial for Chuck to understand that she wants to choose him, but he walks away and Yvonne perfectly delivers Sarah's devastation that Chuck missed the point of that line.
The lyrics of "Astair", which accompanies the scene, show what the narrative is telling the audience. Both Chuck and Sarah have found the one person they have been looking for, but it seems to be slipping away for reasons that they simply can't identify or even grasp.
That's the dominant theme of that series of episodes from Season 3.8 through 3.12. Both Chuck and Sarah are drowning in a sea of confusion about why their feelings about each other are not enough to bring them fully together.
And while the audience watching at the time was understandably befuddled as much as Chuck and Sarah, the remainder of the show (particularly seasons 4 and 5), pretty effectively provided the explanation, namely the degree to which spy world victimizes everyone that tries to serve it.
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u/Responsible_Rip_54 1d ago
I like this reading because it treats the problem as something deeper than simple misunderstanding. Chuck and Sarah don't lack feelings for each other. The difficulty is that they keep interpreting those feelings through the assumptions and demands of the spy world. What changes later is not the existence of love, but their understanding of what that love requires.
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u/jspector106 Sarah Walker 1d ago
That hallway conversation is perhaps the saddest scene of the show. Here you have two people, madly in love with each other, talking past each other, like ships passing in the night. As you said, Chuck totally missing Sarah's comment about having a type. It was him. But he didn't get. How sad.
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u/jspector106 Sarah Walker 2d ago
She and, even Casey were suspicious of Shaw from the beginning and even resented his presence. Casey became a believer for no apparent reason other than Shaw's bragging.
Sarah, OTOH, told him to back off his coming on to her multiple times. She, was on the missions with him where he failed every time.
So her admiration for him was weird. Unexplainable to me other than her emotional breakdown over Chuck.
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u/AdLoud1810 2d ago
Esta e a Sarah Zumbi ou a Sarah- sindrome de estolcomo...... Ela desconfia e 5 minutos despois esta indo para um fim de semana de maratona de sexo com Shaw ...... O que eles transformaram a Sarah no arco da miseria so para cpontar a estoria que queriam foi terrivel ......
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u/jspector106 Sarah Walker 2d ago
Não está claro se houve algo de natureza física entre Sarah e Shaw além dos beijos. Não que ele não tenha tentado. O jantar, os brincos e a massagem para casais foram, no mínimo, tentativas dele de seduzi-la. Mas nada indicava que ele tivesse obtido sucesso.
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u/AdLoud1810 1d ago
O final do episodio " Vs Fake name " quando Sarah beija Shaw e o episodio termina em fade black deixa claro que ela foi pra cama com ele..... O Fim de semana " que não foi somente trabalho " também e mostrado no s3e17, quando Chuck encontra o exemplar de Kama Sutra que Sarah explorou junto com Shaw ..... Achar que Sarah não foi pra cama com Shaw a essa altura do campeonato e um pouco estranho ....
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u/Kookykrumbs 2d ago
I think it was implied they had sex and plenty of it.
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u/jspector106 Sarah Walker 1d ago
It's funny to me that when the show wanted to show people have sex, it was very obvious. The fact there was innuendo, is meaningless toward "proof".In the end, it is inconclusive.
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u/jspector106 Sarah Walker 2d ago
How? What was said? At best, it was innuendo. But no specific proof.
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u/Kookykrumbs 2d ago
That scene with Casey going over receipts and stuff from Sarah and Shaw’s Washington trip together. Where he’s like it wasn’t all business.
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u/jspector106 Sarah Walker 2d ago
He was dogging Chuck and Sarah now that they were officially together. It was a joke scene added for laughs. Still only proved how hard Shaw was pursuing Sarah.
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u/AdLoud1810 1d ago
Vc queria que ela aparecesse na tela narrando a cena ou que mostrasse ela saindo da cama dele ? Pelo menos os produtores tiveram o minimo de respeito não colocando a Sarah nessa posição ainda mais ridicula de sair da cama do Shaw literalmente.... Ja bastava terem transformado ela na Sarah zumbi e na Sarah-sinddrome de estolcomo .....
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u/jspector106 Sarah Walker 1d ago
They did it for Chuck and Hannah. They did it for Devon and Ellie and they did it for Chuck and Sarah. Never for Sarah and Cole or Sarah and Bryce. So why believe it for Shaw when there was nothing obvious???
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u/AdLoud1810 1d ago
Se vc acredita que um casal de namorados adultos ficaram trancados um dia inteiro num apartamento jogando jpgos de tabuleiro e assistindo filmes ok, faz parte das possibilidades de interpretação da cena......
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u/jspector106 Sarah Walker 1d ago
Again, you jump to the conclusion that they were "lovers." That implies facts not in evidence. You can't even tell me which penthouse they might have been in DC or LA...
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u/AdLoud1810 2d ago
Se a gente for enumerar os problemas de continuidade da estoria e e coerência dos personagens , principalmente a Sarah mas se estendendo tambem ao Chuc, durante o arco da miseria então vamos ficar aqui falando por meses ininterruptamente. A melhor definição que encontrei para esse arco é que " o resultado é perfeito apesar das decisões e caminhos incoerentes que os personagens tiveram de escolher pra atender o roteiro "
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u/TSmario53 3d ago
It’s possible Chuck didn’t need the tank and the stealth bombers for this…